Author Topic: Life and this movie are messy  (Read 80605 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2006, 12:10:04 pm »
Far as symbols go....I've heard more than one writer at readings or seminars respond to a question about a symbol by saying something like....no, in that particular case the symbol wasn't intentional, but sure it works that way and they wish they had thought of it consciously.

Exactly! It's  possible to interpet a symbol differently than the artist intended. Or see a symbol the artist didn't intend at all. Or find a symbol not consciously intended by the artist, but maybe subconsciously. In my own writing, I sometimes go back over earlier drafts and think, wait a minute! There are lots of hotels and motels here, and they change over the years in much the way the family in the story changes over the years (real example). So in subsequent drafts I might try to emphasize that by tweaking the descriptions, strengthening the connections, using hotel-related analogy in places where I might otherwise use some other kind of analogy. In that case, maybe in many uses of symbolism, the idea started out in my subconscious -- and, because that particular piece happened to be a nonfiction essay, also in real life -- but was quite consciously developed afterward.

In doing this, I would try not to make the hotels stand out so obviously that the reader gets bonked in the head with A Symbol. And symbols probably shouldn't be things dragged in from outer space that wouldn't otherwise fit  naturally into the context. Like, in Brokeback, fountain pens or champagne glasses wouldn't be good symbols (I started to say "roses," but then -- oops! they are!). To work well, symbols should be subtle, ideally entering the audience's unconscious the same way they emerged from the creator's unconscious.

But you can consciously find symbols become often they keep reappearing, or because they appear in contexts that are just slightly ... unusual. So coffee pots: Ennis is washing a coffee pot when he looks up with concern at Jack riding across the mountain. Ennis bangs on a coffee pot while Jack sings Water Walkin Jesus. Ennis sees a coffee pot and bucket when he opens the tent the morning after TS1 and looks out at his new world. Ennis says all the traveling he's done is around a coffee pot looking for the handle (colorful phrase, but strange). In the flashback, the camera pauses momentarily on a coffee pot and bucket, resting cozily side by side over the fire. In Ennis' trailer,  a coffee pot is prominently set on his stove (sort of like the big fan on his bed).

Do any of these call attention to themselves? No (except, arguably, the traveling one). Do any seem artificially inserted in the movie to Mean Something? No. What to make of the scenes where Alma suggests Jack come in for coffee and when Mrs. Twist serves Ennis coffee and even when Ennis and Alma Jr. have coffee -- are those somehow related? Who knows. Maybe. Or maybe they're there just because Wyomingians drink coffee. Really good symbols, I think, are often a bit ambiguous and arguable and even abstract.

Could all of these coffee pot images be utterly coincidental and meaningless or just there to provide continuity? Not in my view. But if you prefer to see them that way, or if they don't work for you or enhance your appreciation of the movie, feel free to ignore them!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 02:02:32 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2006, 05:35:17 pm »
Hmm, I would love to read your hotel/motel piece. Is it fiction or nonfiction?
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Re: sweet and sour
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2006, 08:06:23 am »
Continuing to look at the messier elements in this story and film... Jack first brings up the stink of rotting lightning struck sheep and we're off! On the mountain that first morning, "the cold air sweetened" when the sun came up. But as the sun goes down again, Jack is bitching about the smell of the pup tent. On another night, Ennis (who is a good singer in the story, but doesn't like to sing in the movie) knows the salty words to a song, but after TS1 they were "flying in the euphoric, bitter air." The coming storm from the Pacific brings a metallic smell to the mountain, and Aguirre has a sour look for them.

In the earlier days of his married life, Ennis found the smells of milk et al comforting. But he liked even more the "faint sweetness" like grass that Jack exuded during the reunion scene. Proulx cranks up the smells to their highest during the Motel Siesta scene, even bringing in sour hay. Ennis's reaction to Jack's return "scares the piss out of" him, and Jack thinks back to Aguirre's last envious words of sweet smelling roses. Then comes the sweetest moment, when Jack tells Ennis of "the sweet life" they could have with a little cow & calf operation. But Ennis responds by telling him the horrendous story of a man he had seen who had been killed and who had no nose.

Finally, Alma finds her words and labels Jack "Nasty." Jack and Ennis continued to meet in the mountains, where the bitter juniper is crushed under their horses' hooves. Jack is bitter too, his words "I did once" are bitter and accusatory. Later, Ma Twist offers Ennis a cup of coffee (bitter) and a piece of cherry cake (sweet). He takes the coffee and spurns the cake. He is left with just the memory of a scent when he finds the shirts, although he buries his nose in their fabric. Proulx uses all the senses available to her to bring the story to life, harnessing the sweet and the sour to color the personalities, the feelings, and the motivations of the characters. The movie enlarges this theme, adding a scene at the end where Ennis breathes in the scent of Alma Jr. as he folds his daughter's sweater that she leaves behind.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2006, 12:33:51 am »
Jack is also the last to bring up olfactory issues in the movie as he wonders to Randall why a woman would want to powder her nose just before going home to go to bed. Then, Lureen's account of Jack''s death has his nose being broken by an exploding tire.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 12:50:29 am by Front-Ranger »
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Offline malina

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2006, 03:28:46 am »
In the short story, when Ennis finds the shirts and inhales their scent:

<<He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack>>

When I first read that I didn't like the use of the word 'stink', even qualified by 'salty sweet'. I guess I would've preferred something neutral and unchallenging like 'scent' or 'smell'.

I still have trouble with it. I guess I want to be able to imagine cozying up to Jack and I don't want him to be stinky.

BUT.. I wholeheartedly applaud Annie Proulx for phrasing it like this. It's real, not a polished and stylized representation of love. It doesn't matter that I have trouble with it. The visceral quality of the messiness and smelliness is part of what brings Jack and Ennis to life.

Btw, this is off-topic but the movie and my obsession with it have made my life messier than I'd bargained for too. And.. as a very general observation.. love messes things up. Maybe all the specific messes are reflections and manifestations of that.

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2006, 07:19:22 am »
I join you in applauding Annie Proulx for making us think about certain words in a different way. I truly never thought swear words would have the exalted place they have taken on in my lexicon. Large words like asphyxiate bring me so much pleasure that I go out of my way to use them. And stink is now a term of endearment. Yay Annie, and Ang, for messing up my life, or at least my vocabulary, something royally!!  :)
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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2006, 05:28:25 pm »
I'm still not done with smells, but I have to go back to spitting just for a moment. Recall how L.D. Newsome insists that his grandson is "the spitting image of his granddaddy?" Nice use of obscure regional sayings pressed into service to advance the metaphors!

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moremojo

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2006, 05:37:22 pm »
In the short story, when Ennis finds the shirts and inhales their scent:

<<He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack>>

When I first read that I didn't like the use of the word 'stink', even qualified by 'salty sweet'. I guess I would've preferred something neutral and unchallenging like 'scent' or 'smell'.

I still have trouble with it. I guess I want to be able to imagine cozying up to Jack and I don't want him to be stinky.

BUT.. I wholeheartedly applaud Annie Proulx for phrasing it like this. It's real, not a polished and stylized representation of love. It doesn't matter that I have trouble with it. The visceral quality of the messiness and smelliness is part of what brings Jack and Ennis to life.
Note also how Ennis takes comfort in the rancid or earthy smells of his menage with Alma and the babies--a world of odor that reminds him of the fecund cycle of life. The motel scene is also described in terms of raunchy odor, and Ennis and Jack are seen to be very much at home here.

I don't it's very unusual for gay men to find the smells of men (even smells that veer into the fetid) appealing (I'm certainly one of them), and I think Annie was spot-on in intimating this element of Ennis's personality. It's also interesting  how Jack is remembered in terms of smells of nature, as if he belonged, in both body and spirit, to the mountain that fed the boys' dreams.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2006, 05:41:42 pm »
<<He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack>>

When I first read that I didn't like the use of the word 'stink', even qualified by 'salty sweet'. I guess I would've preferred something neutral and unchallenging like 'scent' or 'smell'.

I also think it's another case of Annie inserting something jarring to undercut the sentimentality of an otherwise mushy moment.

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2006, 11:50:53 pm »
You're right, Katherine, and so well expressed!
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