Author Topic: Life and this movie are messy  (Read 80727 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2008, 11:56:35 am »
You know how we think about that trailer scene as being a wedding ceremony, with Aguirre being the preacher/God? Well, it just suddenly occurred to me (as maybe it already had to others) that Aguirre also roughly establishes the form the rest of their lives will take: they'll live separately, on the QT.

They'll get together for a couple of high altitude fucks breakfast and dinner, but they'll sleep with the sheep (pretend to follow society's rules) hunderd percent, no fire, don't leave no sign, roll up that tent every morning case the Forest Service snoops around -- that is, pretend not to be doing what they're doing in case the people on the pavement snoop around.

Maybe this is all obvious to other people, but it's the first time I've thought about the wedding/trailer scene in quite this way. I've concentrated on the certificate (they came together on paper) and the vows (No! No! Not on your fucking life!) and the ring (the watch), and walking down the aisle (the steps) and the kiss (the handshake). But I've never thought of the wedding service in terms as literally as this.


Yes, and they held their reception at the saloon, and their honeymoon on Brokeback Mountain!! Yee-haw!

Two years in, and it's still going ...  :D
Isn't this story incredible!!  :D
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Offline Meryl

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2008, 12:58:42 pm »
Amanda, Katherine and Lee, you get gold stars for those great insights!  ;D

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2008, 01:56:18 pm »
Thanks Buds!   This really is an interesting discussion... and it certainly is amazing that after 2+ years there are still new things to think about all the time.

About the dead sheep... last night while thinking about this, I wanted to post a series of film-stills from that sequence.  I think in the movie, we see the dead sheep, then a shot of Ennis's face looking at the sheep, then Ennis looking off in the distance and then a cut to Jack shivering by the stream doing laundry.  But, when I went to Striped Wall, it turns out they don't have a screen cap of the close-up of the mutilated sheep, at least that I was able to find (it seems to have been cut out of their selection).  Also, I've noticed that the Striped Wall website doesn't have all the screen caps for the Childress dinner dance, or even for the opening sequences.  It's interesting, when you know the film so well... you can begin to really get a sense of what's missing there.

Anyway, the shots of Ennis's face inserted between the dead sheep and Jack's naked body are really interesting to me.  In a way, it's like Ennis is the factor here (or his ideas/memory/issues) that creates the equation between the threat of death/violence and Jack (or danger directed towards Jack... and himself too).  At this point, of course, we don't yet know about Earl as film viewers... but the knowledge of Earl for a viewer who's seen the film more than once really can change how the sheep seems to function.  Or, this scene takes on a loaded meaning in hindsight.

Lee, I think the sheep probably also does have a religious connotation.  And, initially, in my first viewings of the dead sheep scene, I thought it was an over-determined symbol for loss of innocense or loss of virginity.

From my perspective, it can be all of these things at once.  And, there are probably many other ways to interpret it as well.




You know how we think about that trailer scene as being a wedding ceremony, with Aguirre being the preacher/God? Well, it just suddenly occurred to me (as maybe it already had to others) that Aguirre also roughly establishes the form the rest of their lives will take: they'll live separately, on the QT.

They'll get together for a couple of high altitude fucks breakfast and dinner, but they'll sleep with the sheep (pretend to follow society's rules) hunderd percent, no fire, don't leave no sign, roll up that tent every morning case the Forest Service snoops around -- that is, pretend not to be doing what they're doing in case the people on the pavement snoop around.

Maybe this is all obvious to other people, but it's the first time I've thought about the wedding/trailer scene in quite this way. I've concentrated on the certificate (they came together on paper) and the vows (No! No! Not on your fucking life!) and the ring (the watch), and walking down the aisle (the steps) and the kiss (the handshake). But I've never thought of the wedding service in terms as literally as this.

Katherine, I think this is just great.  Yes, I think that early trailer scene with Aguirre sets up so much... in terms of patterns and themes for the rest of the film.  I love the analogy with a wedding ceremony, the "negative" vows, etc. And, the fact that the "time line" or the "never enough time" also starts with Aguirre tossing the watch to Ennis.

It's a great observation to note that Aguirre is essentially teaching them/ or requiring them to be secretive and sneaky.  And, definitely all throughout the Brokeback summer and for the rest of their lives we see Ennis and Jack coming and going from each other consistently (lots of greetings and good byes peppered throughout the film).

« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 03:32:10 pm by atz75 »
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Offline optom3

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2008, 02:28:44 pm »
I read the s.s first then saw the film.I always thought in the s.s that Ennis was almost like Jacks guardian angel/protector, his role being to look after and protect Jack in the same way he looks after the sheep.But I think this protective mode is a counter balance to his inherent vulnerability.

In their last trip there is a beautiful line where Proulx writes "Ennis put his arm round Jack pulled him close"Almost a protective gesture.In both the ss and film there is the dozy embrace scene,where again Ennis holds Jack,keeping him close and safe.
In the motel reunion scene she writes "Ennis pulled Jack's hand to his mouth"
Ennis calls Jack "little darlin" after the reunion kiss. Ennis also admits to Jack that he was ill after comming down from BB, and he realises that he should not have let Jack out of his sight.Once he is out of sight and the protection of Ennis,it is almost as if his fate has been sealed.It is also a very deep thing for Ennis to admit to.It is tantamount to saying I love you.In fact probably even more meaningful.He was sick literally, and emotionally too.

Ennis is the tender one of the two in the short story.Interestingly the only time when Jack tends to Ennis,after the fight,Proulx writes "he laid the ministering angel out".It seems that Ennis wants to be the one doing the "looking after" He does not like it when Jack tends to him.
When he hears about the accident he wants to curse Lureen for "letting Jack die on the dirt road"

It seems that when Ennis is not around to protect Jack, he expects Lureen to do the job for him.Or maybe he just feels so guilty for not being there himself.
It strikes me that Ennis has the deeper love albeit allied with the deeper fear.He does not go with any other men.His love for Jack is his sole male love.There is no one else who can fulfill that need.He even talks at the motel of having "wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you"
There is something very raw and emotionally searing about that statement.For someone as closed as Ennis to admit to something so deeply sexual and personal indicates to me the depth of his love for Jack.

He immediately then seeks reassurance from Jack,saying"you do it with other guys"
That breaks my heart when I read it.It is such a needy thing to ask, and again gives a vulnerability to Ennis.He is in the throes of a very deep love,which he does not understand,and needs some validation from Jack.
He later admits to being scared when he says "there's no reins on this one.It scares the piss out a me"He is so desperately vulnerable here.He is stripped bare,both physically and emotionally, nowhere to hide.So that scene in the s.s is more poignant for me than in the film,where it occurs outside with them both clothed.

Throughout the s.s I always felt that Ennis was far and away the more emotionally vulnerable one, and that his need to protect/look after Jack was a way of counter balancing this vulnerability.

I love the film.and always will.It renders me senseless every time I see it, but I do not get the same sense of vulnerability in Ennis that comes across to me in the s.s. Not until the very end with the shirts. I suspect this done quite deliberately,to save the film becoming too sentimental.That is avoided in the s.s because of Pollux's gritty prose.

Well that is my 2 cents worth,and maybe I would have had a different take had I seen the film first.Who knows.When reading the story I had to rely on the words and my own imagination, which will always differ from someone Else's interpretation.I just wish, and I have said this on other posts that Ennis had called Jack" little darlin" in the film.But maybe coupled with the ending that would just have been way too emotionally draining.

Offline BlissC

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2008, 06:42:59 pm »
You know how we think about that trailer scene as being a wedding ceremony, with Aguirre being the preacher/God? Well, it just suddenly occurred to me (as maybe it already had to others) that Aguirre also roughly establishes the form the rest of their lives will take: they'll live separately, on the QT.

They'll get together for a couple of high altitude fucks breakfast and dinner, but they'll sleep with the sheep (pretend to follow society's rules) hunderd percent, no fire, don't leave no sign, roll up that tent every morning case the Forest Service snoops around -- that is, pretend not to be doing what they're doing in case the people on the pavement snoop around.

Maybe this is all obvious to other people, but it's the first time I've thought about the wedding/trailer scene in quite this way. I've concentrated on the certificate (they came together on paper) and the vows (No! No! Not on your fucking life!) and the ring (the watch), and walking down the aisle (the steps) and the kiss (the handshake). But I've never thought of the wedding service in terms as literally as this.

Two years in, and it's still going ...  :D

I can't believe I've never noticed that before! Duh! It always struck me that Aguirre bringing them down from the mountain early, cutting their summer short, and their time together, and maybe altering the course of how their relationship might have developed had they had longer up on the mountain, but I can't believe I never noticed that with Aguirre's trailer! Must. Pay. Better. Attention.!!!  :laugh:

I always thought in the s.s that Ennis was almost like Jacks guardian angel/protector, his role being to look after and protect Jack in the same way he looks after the sheep.But I think this protective mode is a counter balance to his inherent vulnerability.

In their last trip there is a beautiful line where Proulx writes "Ennis put his arm round Jack pulled him close"Almost a protective gesture.In both the ss and film there is the dozy embrace scene,where again Ennis holds Jack,keeping him close and safe.
In the motel reunion scene she writes "Ennis pulled Jack's hand to his mouth"
Ennis calls Jack "little darlin" after the reunion kiss. Ennis also admits to Jack that he was ill after comming down from BB, and he realises that he should not have let Jack out of his sight.Once he is out of sight and the protection of Ennis,it is almost as if his fate has been sealed.It is also a very deep thing for Ennis to admit to.It is tantamount to saying I love you.In fact probably even more meaningful.He was sick literally, and emotionally too.

Ennis is the tender one of the two in the short story.Interestingly the only time when Jack tends to Ennis,after the fight,Proulx writes "he laid the ministering angel out".It seems that Ennis wants to be the one doing the "looking after" He does not like it when Jack tends to him.
When he hears about the accident he wants to curse Lureen for "letting Jack die on the dirt road"

It seems that when Ennis is not around to protect Jack, he expects Lureen to do the job for him.Or maybe he just feels so guilty for not being there himself.

I agree Fiona that Ennis is both seen as the protector, and sees himself as the protector, and the fact that in the SS especially we get to see his vulnerability simply adds to the pathos of the whole situation, but in the SS we get the story almost entirely from Ennis's POV. I think though that although in more subtle ways Jack's also protective of Ennis - he doesn't relate the whole of his conversation with Aguirre the summer after the mountain to Ennis, tries to clean up Ennis's cut after he's thrown when the horse is startled by the bear, doesn't tell Ennis about the other men, or later on about Randall, or his trips to Mexico, and probably more I've missed (it's late and I'm getting tired), and though it could be argued he doesn't tell Ennis to protect himself, I think a part of it's wanting to protect Ennis and take care of him in his own small ways, and later, with the things he doesn't tell Ennis protecting Ennis's delicate view of their relationship as "we're not queer". He's certainly not the protector in the same way that Ennis sees himself as "the protector", but he's protective of Ennis.

Quote
It strikes me that Ennis has the deeper love albeit allied with the deeper fear.He does not go with any other men.His love for Jack is his sole male love.There is no one else who can fulfill that need.He even talks at the motel of having "wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you"
There is something very raw and emotionally searing about that statement.For someone as closed as Ennis to admit to something so deeply sexual and personal indicates to me the depth of his love for Jack.

He immediately then seeks reassurance from Jack,saying"you do it with other guys"
That breaks my heart when I read it.It is such a needy thing to ask, and again gives a vulnerability to Ennis.He is in the throes of a very deep love,which he does not understand,and needs some validation from Jack.
He later admits to being scared when he says "there's no reins on this one.It scares the piss out a me"He is so desperately vulnerable here.He is stripped bare,both physically and emotionally, nowhere to hide.So that scene in the s.s is more poignant for me than in the film,where it occurs outside with them both clothed.

That scene breaks my heart because even though Ennis asks him outright, and despite his love for Ennis, Jack lies to him. "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." I guess he's trying to protect Ennis, in the same way he doesn't tell Ennis about his trips to Mexico (though in the end by that point in the story, post-divorce after Ennis 'sends him away', I think there's been a fundamental shift in their relationship), but it still jars. Jack can't admit his need for Ennis and his need to find a "substitute" for Ennis, and neither of them in twenty years manages to outright admit their love in so many words.

Quote
Throughout the s.s I always felt that Ennis was far and away the more emotionally vulnerable one, and that his need to protect/look after Jack was a way of counter balancing this vulnerability.

Yep, Jack was definitely the stronger of the two - and I seem to remember that Ennis admits as much at one point, but Jack had his vulnerabilities too, though not so obvious, as discussed in the TOTW the other week. One of the many tragedies though is that though he sees himself as Jack's protector, ultimately his actions and his sending Jack away put Jack in harm's way. Who knows how things might have turned out differently if only?

Quote
I just wish, and I have said this on other posts that Ennis had called Jack" little darlin" in the film.But maybe coupled with the ending that would just have been way too emotionally draining.

I don't know about the ending, but I wish they'd left the "little darlin" in the reunion scene. Probably it was felt adding "romantic" stuff in would over-Hollywoodize it without the grittiness of AP's prose, but as it was in the original SS I feel it would have been fitting. Ah well, I guess they had their reasons...


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2008, 06:47:54 pm »
I can't believe I've never noticed that before! Duh! It always struck me that Aguirre bringing them down from the mountain early, cutting their summer short, and their time together, and maybe altering the course of how their relationship might have developed had they had longer up on the mountain, but I can't believe I never noticed that with Aguirre's trailer! Must. Pay. Better. Attention.!!!  :laugh:

But wow, that's a good point, too, BlissC! I'd never made that connection before -- that Aguirre, representing God, cuts short their relationship on the mountain, foreshadowing how the actual God (or Fate, or whatever) cuts short their relationship 20 years later.


Offline BlissC

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2008, 08:06:42 pm »
Ain't never enough time... :'(


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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2008, 09:13:51 pm »
But wow, that's a good point, too, BlissC! I'd never made that connection before -- that Aguirre, representing God, cuts short their relationship on the mountain, foreshadowing how the actual God (or Fate, or whatever) cuts short their relationship 20 years later.



I think the idea that Aguirre, at the end of the Brokeback summer, is the force introduces the "paradise lost" element of the story is very good.  Aguirre certainly does represent (at the most basic levels) power and authority (including the power and authority to observe while at the same time not being observed himself).  He sets the whole thing in motion in the beginning trailer scene and he "expels" them from the "paradise" of Brokeback too early towards the end of the summer after they've broken rules (changed jobs, fool around rather than watch the sheep, etc.).  The idea (as stated by Proulx in the story) that Ennis and Jack never return to Brokeback seems really important here.  Brokeback/ the '63 summer is their "lost" Eden or paradise and also the lost "golden age" of their youth when things seemed idyllic.

In that way BBM really does bounce off of some major religious themes and also off of some really Classical themes.  The whole notion of shepherds of course has a lot of religious/poetic resonance, but also reminds me a lot of Classical pastoral imagery (i.e. things like a lost "golden age").

(When I say "religious" here I mean it in a general literary/metaphoric sense more than anything else).

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2008, 09:28:20 pm »
Anyway, the shots of Ennis's face inserted between the dead sheep and Jack's naked body are really interesting to me.  In a way, it's like Ennis is the factor here (or his ideas/memory/issues) that creates the equation between the threat of death/violence and Jack (or danger directed towards Jack... and himself too).  At this point, of course, we don't yet know about Earl as film viewers... but the knowledge of Earl for a viewer who's seen the film more than once really can change how the sheep seems to function.  Or, this scene takes on a loaded meaning in hindsight.

Lee, I think the sheep probably also does have a religious connotation.  And, initially, in my first viewings of the dead sheep scene, I thought it was an over-determined symbol for loss of innocense or loss of virginity.

From my perspective, it can be all of these things at once.  And, there are probably many other ways to interpret it as well.

Right you are, atz75. I think of the sheep as a sacrifice, like the sacrifice of Christ in the crucifixion, or of the chicken in The Virginian or the Mudge Boy, the Minotaur to Theseus, or like the prized racehorse in The Godfather, to use an eclectic mix of sources. Yes it certainly also stands for loss of innocence but what does that mean really? As far as innocence goes, you may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity LOL! Does anybody really mourn the loss of their innocence?? Not me! Likewise virginity. Does anyone really mourn the loss of it? To me that seems like a paternalistic made-up concept. Rather we mourn the loss of an innocent creature that gets caught up in the machinations of man or nature. It doesn't seem fair. But death is a force of nature just like love. They are the flip sides of the coin, which falls at random. Perhaps this is another meaning of the dead sheep, depicting the randomness, the heartlessness, the total lack of mercy of Nature.

Your latest post is also very interesting. I recall the old movie "Aguirre Wrath of God" and Joe Aguirre is definitely a wrathful Jehovah-like person. The scenes you cite support this. And there's also the scene where Aguirre rides up and "fixes Jack with his bold stare" and gives him the news about his relative. Jack takes this omen of the innocent sacrifice of a loved one in stride and Aguirre seems to imply that Jack has the ability to cure illness, just as he seemed to imply earlier that Jack could save the sheep from being struck by lightning if he wanted to. And, glory be, he was right! Uncle Harold didn't die after all!! Aguirre and the slovenly black woman who plays God in The Matrix...we should get them together sometime!!

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Life and this movie are messy
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2008, 01:52:22 am »
More excellent points, ATZ and F-R!

Aguirre's role is very illustrative of the complexity of symbolism in BBM. Yes, he's God. And on the one hand, he's a benevolent god -- bringing them together, officiating at the wedding, saying nothing after he sees them frolicking. And on the other hand he's a wrathful God -- "No. No. Not on your fucking life!" abruptly casting them out of Paradise (after Ennis shoots that coyote with "balls the size of apples" -- coyotes are kind of the serpents of the Brokeback Eden), generally being a grouch. (In these respects, I guess, Aguirre is like the actual God.) Just goes to show how complicated it is to untangle the sheep metaphors in BBM.

Wonder why Aguirre keeps trying to give Jack the opportunity to perform Christlike miracles (the lightning, Uncle Harold), and Jack keeps disavowing them? BTW, have we ever noted that Jack's account of the mass sheep death is yet one more occurrence of a Jack-and-breathing-related problem ("thought I'd asphyxiate from the smell")?


I recall the old movie "Aguirre Wrath of God"

Pop quiz: How many degrees of separation from "Aguirre Wrath of God" to "Brokeback Mountain"? I can think of a progression with three.


Does anybody really mourn the loss of their innocence?? Not me! Likewise virginity. Does anyone really mourn the loss of it? To me that seems like a paternalistic made-up concept. 

My feeling has always been that this is a parent's perspective. No one mourns the loss of his/her own innocence, but they do mourn watching their children lose theirs, and often try to postpone it as long as they can. In that case, the fig-leaf business -- the awareness of nakedness -- really does tend to segue right in to lost innocence in general. In this sense, as in so many others, the parent casts him/herself in the role of God.

I imagine it's always bittersweet at best, terrifying at worst, to watch your cute little child become a snotty teenage delinquent mature young man or woman.