Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Hey everbody, this topic was split off a previous thread (which is why I'm writing this introductory note in ruthlesslyunsentimental's post). Others have already entered their questionnaire answers. To fill out the questionnaire:

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Latjoreme/Katherine



Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Diane - IMO, there is no melodic line. I can't imagine that this is the case.
          Jane  -  no idea.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  It can be hard to catch in watching the film because of other noises and dialogue that separate the various parts of his playing.  But, all of Jack’s harmonica playing is on the Academy voters CD (there’s a link to it somewhere on these boards, but I cannot remember where I found it).  On this CD, you hear all of Jack’s playing without the extra noises and without the extra dialogue.  And, it’s all strung together in order.  It’s crystal clear.  The lyrics for the notes he plays are: (during the “tent don’t look right” scene) “He….. was a friend of mine…. He…. (stop) He… (stop) Was a friend of mine… (stop) Just kept on mov…” and (during the ride back from untangling the sheep) “He was a friend of mine… Every time I hear his name… I just…” (then he just blows in and out for a couple of seconds as if trying to find his tune).  Jack’s playing is out of tune, but it’s unmistakable on the voters CD.

Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that harmonica would break in two"?
          Diane – I say no. I bring this up because there was an argument that the harmonica symbolized “breaking Ennis and Jack in two” … Obviously, I don’t buy it.
          Jane  -  no.
          Ruthlessly - Yes there is.  It’s a foreshadowing of Jack being separated in two when half of his ashes went to Texas and half to Wyoming.  It’s not about the two of them breaking in two.  Every time either Ennis or Jack hums or sings or Jack plays his harmonica, it foreshadows Jack’s death.  Singing, humming, and harmonica playing are all forms of wind.  Jack is symbolized by the wind.  Ennis hums “The Cowboy’s Lament” (aka “The Streets of Laredo”) about a dead cowboy as he rides to meet the bear, Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica at the “tent don’t look” right, Jack sings “Water-Walking Jesus” (“I know that I shall meet you on that final day… WWJ, take me away”), Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica after the “untangle sheep” scene, Ennis is glad Jack forgot his harmonica at the river reunion scene (because it would foreshadow Jack’s death, and then Ennis foreshadows Jack’s death himself when he tells the Earl death story), Ennis will go to the church social with the girls if he doesn’t have to sing (he doesn’t want to foreshadow Jack’s death), Ennis hums a tune taught to him by his mother at the dozy embrace – Jack dies soon afterward.

Regarding Randall:           
Is Jack checking out Randall or is Randall checking out Jack?
          Diane – I think it is both. However, I think Randall is more overt than  Jack.
          Jane  -  Randall checking out Jack.
          Ruthlessly – I think Randall checks out Jack overtly, Jack knows it and is trying to avoid it.

When Randall mentions the cabin … what is Jack thinking?
          Diane – IMO, he is thinking about Ennis … especially when he looks straight ahead …. as if  he is longing to be with the man he loves. However, he also has needs that Ennis is not fulfilling … so I think he’s beginning to consider having an affair.
          Jane  -  His exacts words / thoughts are "Why couldn't this be Ennis, suggesting that?"
          Ruthlessly – He’s thinking everything you both said and a lot more.

Ennis’ vision of Jack being murdered:
Does Ennis’ finding out that Jack had been seeing another man reinforce his belief that Jack was murdered?
          Diane – Yes. That feeds into his homophobia. In Ennis' mind, people found out that Jack was having sex with a man and was killed because of it.
          Jane  -  It re-inforces his fear, IMO he does not have the belief 100%, he has the fear.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  As long as we keep it all in Ennis’ mind.

Is there a significance that Ennis envisions a man stomping on Jack’s groin?
          Diane – Absolutely, yes. Mirrors the image he saw with Earl. This signifies the most overt thing … the sexual organ (I am trying to be delicate here … difficult to do) … having sex with a man is societal suicide.
          Jane  -  I dunno, never gave it much thought.
          Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane.

Even though the reality of Jack’s death is ambiguous, IYO, was Jack murdered or did he die in an accident?
          Diane – Hate to say this, but I think he was murdered.
          Jane  -  Well I prefer to believe that he died in an accident, but I realize that I could be wrong as the overwhelming consensus (four-to-one that it was gay bashing) is that he was murdered.
          Ruthlessly – Accident.  All of the direct evidence points straight to it.  All of the evidence for murder hinges on one point only – something that Ennis conjured up in his mind due to his fears.

When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
          Diane - I think Ennis felt betrayed at the lake scene, but not so much here. It was the knowledge that Jack was seeing a man at the same time he died and the belief that Jack was, indeed, murdered.
          Jane  -  I tried to read his expressions, but I could not.  But I can still answer this question, I guess.  I think when he heard about the other guy, he felt betrayed, because Jack was steppin' out.
          Ruthlessly – Betrayed, no.  Jack murdered, no.  He was thinking “I really blew it.  I could have had that with Jack, but I wouldn’t give it to him.  So he tried to fulfill his dream with someone else.”  With this kind of emotional self-beating, betrayal and murder are far from his mind.  He’s only concentrating on the love that was between them.

Let’s keep adding to these questions! This is too much fun!   


Thanks for adding all these great questions!  And I think it was totally appropriate for latjoreme to move these questions to their own thread to give them a life of their own.

[Penthesilea]

Note: this post is an answer to ruthlessly regarding a post of his, which was posted before the questionnaries were divided to several threads. So ruthlessly's post I refer to is still on the questionnaires part 1 thread. But my answer doesn't fit over there, because it refers to questionnaire #2. So I post it here, hoping you don't mind the jumble. If you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, feel free to ignore 

Note #2: my answers to questionnaire 2 are gone on this new thread, but still intact on the old (first) thread. I will copy and paste them.

Yes.  There are two scenes where Jack plays the harmonica and he plays “He was a Friend of Mine” in both.

I listended to both scenes today (first time ever I put my DVD in just for the purpose to check some specific scenes). Both times, he plays the same tune (wouldn't swear an oath on it, but am pretty sure). I still can't hear any similarity to "He was a friend of mine", but if it is this song, then it's played twice.

Many people see a tie between Earl’s death and Ennis’ imagination during the Lureen phone call.  These are separated by about 15 years and many, many scenes.  Many people see a tie between Ennis arriving in Signal in a truck in a green-lit sky with a paper bag with a shirt in it to the scene at the end of the movie where Ennis drives home in a truck in a green-lit sky with a paper bag with two shirts in it.  ........I could go on and on

I got the picture.

And you don’t think this sounds like a metaphor foreshadowing Jack’s death? Because humming and singing and playing the harmonica are upbeat activities?  Are the two songs that roll through the credits (“He was a Friend of Mine” and “Maker Makes”) supposed to be upbeat?  Are they not about death and loss and longing?

I never said the songs you mentioned (the ones hummed and sung by Ennis or Jack) are funny, upbeat songs with hilarious lyrics. And of course the songs at the end of the credits are not upbeat. So music can be sad.

But the occasions you itemized are upbeat activities. The the singing/humming/playing person is in a good mood when doing so:
Ennis humming on his way back to camp (before he encounters the bear)
Jack playing the harmonica and Ennis joking about it
Water-walking-Jesus-scene: Jack singing and Ennis doing "percussions" on the coffeepot: barely a downbeat mood
Ennis making the "as long as I don't have to sing"-comment: he is cheerful, on his way to Jack and makes a joke to his children
Dozy embrace: lovable, tender, at peace
I could go on and on...
 

Then add in Ennis' comment about the harmonica breaking in two.  If humming, singing and playing the harmonica foreshadow Jack's death, then it seems logical that Ennis' comment is a foreshadowing of Jack's ashes being in two separate places.

This is one thing I agree. Being not in consencus with your "Every singing etc. foreshadows Jack's death"-statement, I would phrase it slightly different: "If there is a connection between Jack and the harmonica, then it sems logical that Ennis's comment is a foreshadowing of Jack's ashes being in two seperate places".
I absolutely see the connection between Ennis's comment and the divided ashes, because I agree about the connection between Jack and the harmonica. As I said before.

Back to my original answer, it was: hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation as a whole. Perhaps partly. The above paragraph is a part where I can follow you.
I'm not undecided anymore regarding to the original question, whether there is symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica and Ennis's comment. I thought about it the last two days (thanks to your further inquiry). My answer is now a yes to the symbolism.

Then add in Ennis' comment about being glad that Jack forgot his harmonica.  If the humming, singing, playing metaphor foreshadows Jack's death, then is it not highly ironic that Ennis foreshadows Jack's death himself by telling the Earl death story, right after he himself mentioned the missing harmonica ... the foreshadowing of Jack's death is missing (the harmonica), but is filled in with the Earl death story.

Yes, if...
This is a circular argument: you use the music metaphor to explain the scene and you use the explanation of the scene (and it's possible irony) as an evidence for the metaphor.

Honestly, with all due respect, I am confused.

Is it so confusing when different people have different opinions  ?
After reflecting this topic once more since your answer yesterday: Bottom line is, I still can't buy your statement in it's finalty. But you're not wrong, too. I guess this is another topic where we could debate endlessly, like the debate about Jack's death. But seeing that this movie is open to interpreation in so many ways and on so many layers, we could just agree to partly disagree again.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Is it OK to throw in a few comments about someone else's answers?  I hope so.  I'll just quote the relevant parts.


Concerning the symbolism in the harmonica --

          Amanda=  I think his "loyalty" to a crushed harmonica is quite significant.  He loves his harmonica and won't give up on it even though it's no longer in tune.  And even though the harmonica is flattened it's resilient and still works.  All of these things seem significant to how Jack functions in the relationship with Ennis.  He's loyal and persistent throughout the relationship despite disappointments and obstacles and he won't give up on something he loves.  The fact that we see him playing it twice shows that even Ennis's protests won't get him to stop.... he really loves his harmonica, so there's almost nothing that will get him to give it up.  As a "wind" instrument it's almost part of him.  It is curious that he didn't bring a harmonica to the "prayer of thanks" camping trip... but maybe he hadn't expected to be camping at that juncture... since it seemed like quite a spontaneous trip out to the mountains that time.

I think this is a wonderful symbolism to find in the harmonica!  Following this line, I think it's especially poignant as to exactly when the two times are that he plays the harmonica and what Ennis says in each scene.  About not bringing it along to the reunion river scene, in this metaphor of the harmonica showing us Jack's faithfulness to keeping the two of them together, Jack didn't need the harmonica at the river because it is here that Jack first verbalizes an offer to Ennis that would keep them together.  And here they "exchange new vows" as they define the parameters of their relationship once again.

When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
         
          Amanda= I think it's both.  I think his grief and love though overpower his feelings of betrayal (he may have guessed Jack was having an affair with a guy anyway... he probably was shocked that it had gotten so far as Jack inviting the other fellow to live with him... that's pretty significant).  I think the shirts/ Jack's Mom help wipe away the feelings of betrayal.  But, I'm sure it helped reinforce his fears about the murder.  I think Ennis is also shocked by how much Jack's parents know about everything.  His secret with Jack was no secret at all.

The last two sentences are really wonderful.  I've always felt from the Twist family kitchen scene that his parents knew about Jack's homosexuality and that Jack also told them about Ennis (and then the fact that he told them about another guy) -- they knew.

And so Jack's vow up on the mountain, "It's nobody's business but ours," was not kept.  Interesting.

[Brown Eyes]

And so Jack's vow up on the mountain, "It's nobody's business but ours," was not kept.  Interesting.

Wow, good observation!  Well, I think that chat after TS1 was mainly a lot of anxiety-ridden BS.  I think the "I ain't queer... Me neither" comments are just posturing combined with loads of denial.  And, maybe Jack at that moment does think he truly means that it's nobody else's business.  Either that or he's telling Ennis something/ anything that he thinks might encourage Ennis to continue with the relationship.  But, I think if a relationship goes on for as long as theirs does it's almost impossible to keep it from impacting other people (as it clearly impacts their families, wives and kids).  There's probably no real practical way to avoid a major relationship somehow touching other people... almost no relationship exists in a vacuum.  And, moreover, if the relationship is going to grow into a commitment (like Jack wants) then it really does become the business of other people (at least the business of Jack's parents if the idea is for Jack and Ennis to live with them).

This whole issue of Jack's parents knowing- and Ennis finding out that they know demonstrates to Ennis here that his two greatest fears have come true.  One of his greatest fears is that people will know he's queer/ know about his love for Jack and the other is his fear of homophobic violence.  And, by this juncture in the film both of these things are bearing down on Ennis.  Not only do the Twists know, but Lureen, Aguirre (unbeknownst to Ennis), Alma, and maybe Alma Jr. all know Ennis's secret.  And, since he's convinced himself, for the most part, that Jack was murdered in much the same way as Earl, then this aspect of his fears has come true for him also.  All the sneaking around did not prevent these things from coming to pass (if we look at things from Ennis's point of view and accept for the moment that Jack was murdered).  And, on the topic of people knowing his secret... I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected.  Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.
 

[serious crayons]

Note: this post is an answer to ruthlessly regarding a post of his, which was posted before the questionnaries were divided to several threads. So ruthlessly's post I refer to is still on the questionnaires part 1 thread. But my answer doesn't fit over there, because it refers to questionnaire #2.

Note #2: my answers to questionnaire 2 are gone on this new thread, but still intact on the old (first) thread. I will copy and paste them.

Penth, I am SO SORRY (picture me standing aghast over a pile of broken peanut jars). I split that thread late at night, which I should have known was a big mistake. Sorry to make you reply to something on a different thread, sorry to make you paste your responses in again. I would try to fix it by moving the old posts over here, but clumsy as I am I'm afraid I'd screw it up even more (I don't know how to move posts to a different established hread, only to a whole new thread), so I'm afraid we'll have to stand it.

If there's anything I can do to help ... in fact, if you haven't pasted your answers yet, I'm be happy to do it for you. I can't split threads worth a damn -- pretty good with cut and paste, though.

(Sorry also to Ruthlessly, the other participant in the now divided conversation, and to Mikaela, who had to write her answers on a post without Penth's answers intact.)

I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected.  Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.

Yes, he probably never dreamed of such a compassionate reaction -- the idea that anybody could know without being horrified or disgusted or whatever probably never occurred to him.

For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.

So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!

[Mikaela]

Not to worry, Katherine - I think it's all worked out well enough in the end. About the questionnaires, I mean. 

This whole issue of Jack's parents knowing- and Ennis finding out that they know demonstrates to Ennis here that his two greatest fears have come true.  One of his greatest fears is that people will know he's queer/ know about his love for Jack and the other is his fear of homophobic violence.  (  )  And, on the topic of people knowing his secret... I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected.  Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.

Oh, yes! There was some discussion recently about this on another thread - and lazy sod that I am, I went and dug out my old post:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2940.msg50865#msg50865

Several good posts in that thread, I think - including from Katherine (are there *any* threads without insightful posts by Katherine?)

[Brown Eyes]

For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.

So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!

Oh, I totally agree with this.  John Twist is annoying and seems to enjoy needling Ennis... but you get the sense that he'd do this to anyone and everyone. If Jack introduced Lureen to his father I can imagine John Twist being a jerk to her too (he's a jerk to Jack, probably to his wife, etc.... As you said, it's just an unfortunate aspect of his personality and not directed at anything specific to do with Jack's sexuality... or his irritability is not exlusively channeled into homophobia).  His reaction to Ennis most certainly doesn't seem as bad as it could be or as bad as Ennis would expect either.

Thanks for the link Mikaela!

[serious crayons]

Several good posts in that thread, I think - including from Katherine

(insert whole row of blushing icons here)

Wow, that's really nice of you to say, Mikaela. But let me return the compliment! The best insights come when everybody's flinging insightful posts back and forth and building off each other's, as is so often the case here. I am continually amazed by what I have learned on these boards. I staggered out of my first viewing of Brokeback thinking, "Hmm ... wonder if that dead sheep had some kind of symbolic meaning?"

[dly64]

Yes, he probably never dreamed of such a compassionate reaction -- the idea that anybody could know without being horrified or disgusted or whatever probably never occurred to him
For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.

So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!

Oh, I totally agree with this.  John Twist is annoying and seems to enjoy needling Ennis... but you get the sense that he'd do this to anyone and everyone. If Jack introduced Lureen to his father I can imagine John Twist being a jerk to her too (he's a jerk to Jack, probably to his wife, etc.... As you said, it's just an unfortunate aspect of his personality and not directed at anything specific to do with Jack's sexuality... or his irritability is not exlusively channeled into homophobia).  His reaction to Ennis most certainly doesn't seem as bad as it could be or as bad as Ennis would expect either.

Gosh, guys ... I don't know if I can agree with what you are saying. (although I am finding what I thought was true is not necessarily correct … so I have been changing my mind a lot recently).

John Twist was a jerk ... we all know this to be true. However, he had a very troubled relationship with Jack. Jack indicated this a few times .... "Beats workin' for my old man. Can’t please my old man no way …” and “ My ol’ man was a bullrider, pretty well known in his day, though he kept his secrets to himself. Never taught me a thing. Never once come to see me ride.” What I take from this is a constant feeling that anything Jack tried to do or wanted in his life was going to be beaten down by his father. Knowing that Ennis was Jack’s lover (I am making the assumption that John T. was fully aware that Jack was gay), he wanted to destroy Ennis. When he goes into his speech about “Jack used to say, ‘Ennis Del Mar,’ he used to say ….” Mr. Twist is speaking angrily, accusatory. Note that after he says this and before he goes into the “other fella ..” speech, he spits.  The definition for spit is:

1 a (1) : to eject saliva as an expression of aversion or contempt (2) : to exhibit contempt

IMO, this is what John Twist is doing. He is disgusted with Jack. He is disgusted with Ennis. He doesn’t want to give up Jack’s ashes because he knows this is what Jack wanted. He also knows this is what Ennis wants. BBM is a symbol of Jack and Ennis’ love. Mr. Twist represents the societal disdain for homosexuality. So, even in Jack’s death, Mr. Twist is going to be the controlling jerk of a bastard that he has always been. As usual, Jack can’t please his “ol’ man no way …”   … Mr. Twist is going to do the opposite of what Jack wanted. When Mr. Twist says to Ennis angrily, “Tell you what, we got a family plot and he’s goin’ in it …” it as if he spitting again. An explanation point to his hateful attitude toward Ennis and Jack.

[Brown Eyes]

Don't get me wrong... John Twist is an awful person.  Abusive, spiteful, mean-spirited, etc.  I'm certainly not defending him as a character.  But, it does sort of seem like he would have let Jack move up to the ranch with Ennis or the "other fellow".  He would have complained about it, made fun of them, picked on them, grumbled about it, etc.  But still... it appears that he may have been willing to let it happen.  I also think that once he got used to John Twist, Ennis would have been more than capable of standing up to him if he had decided to move to Lightning Flat with Jack.