Author Topic: condiments  (Read 20428 times)

Offline Samrim

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condiments
« on: July 08, 2006, 04:23:28 am »
Hello everyone
I've read many many threads, with interest and amusement, I love our shared commitment to ole Brokeback. I put a DVD on last night, rented from Amazon; before the main film a series of trailers included BBM, and even though it was the trailer which was such a travesty (wrong sequence, altered storyline ), I was still becoming upset. All it takes is those first couple of guitar notes and I'm off! Stupid boy! The film was Johnny Depp as the Libertine, a bit cringily racey, but actually better than I'd feared (Think Shakespeare in Love with the dirty bits left in). for me JD is a 'must see, so I had to give it a try. He's a'force of nature' :laugh:
Heres my question though! When Ennis takes the little girls to Alma at the 'condiments' ;D and she is arguing, trying to put him off, I found his expression ambiguous. I don't think it was anger, nor condescending amusement, but what? :-\
As an afterthought, I thought that Ennis's face,at that young age was quite wonderful, the planes of his jaw and cheeks were to die for- I have a face like a squashed tomato, so I guess it's just the 'green eyed monster'. ::) Best wishes all,
Sam

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: condiments
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2006, 12:09:50 pm »
The look on Ennis's face when Alma says she doesn't get off her job for another three hours always makes me think of the Annie Proulx line: "He gave [her] a look."

I can't really come up with a single word to describe the look on Ennis's face, but I know what he's trying to convey: the typical attitude of a male raised when and where Ennis was raised that used to be called "male chauvinist."  ;D

Clearly, he does not value Alma's job--maybe even resents that she he has it. His attitude is that his job is the important one (he might get fired if any of the calves die), and Alma's job doesn't matter--never mind if she got fired for taking off in the middle of her shift. She's a woman and his wife, and her place is in the home. Like I said, male chauvinist.

He displays the same attitude in the "kick the can" scene, when they fight as Alma hurries off to the extra shift she promised to take at the store (which she probably needed for the extra money). She tells Ennis that dinner is on the stove, and he responds that nobody's eating it unless she serves it (serves it to him--he clearly isn't thinking of the children), and she needs to tell "them" (presumably actually Monroe) that she was mistaken to take the extra shift.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2006, 05:04:21 pm »
I can't really come up with a single word to describe the look on Ennis's face, but I know what he's trying to convey: the typical attitude of a male raised when and where Ennis was raised that used to be called "male chauvinist."  ;D

You know, I feel like such a broken record that I'm sure people just roll their eyes by now when I rush to Ennis' defense -- "Here she goes again ..." -- and skip on to the next post. But I have to say that although I am normally quite sensitive to sexist remarks, I am not offended by Ennis' behavior in the grocery-store scene.

Actually, the scene does bother me for three reasons: 1) the hint of Australian accent, which always makes me cringe* 2) its seeming pointlessness and 3) Alma's oddly sudden acquiescence. As for his expression, he looks to me like he's appealing to her to be reasonable, maybe because Monroe doesn't seem to mind the mid-shift childcare juggling, whereas the foreman undoubtedly would, and also because Alma has a sister she can call on in a pinch. Some people have suggested she's backing down out of fear of violence, which seems unlikely. Others have said this scene was originally supposed to come after the reunion, which might explain why it seems pointless.

The ash-can scene's "No one's eatin it unless you're servin it" does sound sexist, I'll admit (though what gives you the impression, Jeff, that he is thinking only of himself, not the children?). But also note that Alma wins this round -- she doesn't come scurrying back out of fear of his violent temper (maybe now, having found out about Jack, she's not so intent on pleasing her husband). And elsewhere Ennis doesn't seem to insist on a particularly strict division of domestic chores, especially by the standards of them days -- he's the one who goes to comfort their daughters when they're crying and he's the one who puts them to bed later.

* Note to Australians: I mean hearing the hint of Australian accent always makes me cringe when I watch this scene, because it's out of place, not that Australian accents make me cringe in general -- quite the contrary, in fact!

« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 08:38:25 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: condiments
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2006, 08:40:54 pm »
Are you saying Ennis's assumption that he can just dump the girls on Alma--in the middle of her shift at her job--because he can't tell his boss that he can't come into work is not sexist? Granted it's behavior typical of the period, but does that mean it isn't sexist, just because it's typical?

I don't think Alma backs down out of fear. I think she backs down because she buys into the same cultural norms as Ennis. That she doesn't back down in the later scene suggests some growth on her part that ultimately culminates in her dumping Ennis. I think this also answers the concern about the apparent pointlessness of the scene. If we contrast Alma's later behavior when she storms off to the store with her backing down in the earlier scene, it isn't pointless at all.

I think you could call the look on Ennis's face a "be reasonable" look, but it's "be reasonable" on his terms. After all, why couldnt he call Alma's sister--his sister-in-law, his children's aunt--just as easily as Alma? I wouldn't be surprised if that thought never even crossed his mind, because in his mind, child care is Alma's job. He might put his little angels to bed once in a while, or wipe their noses, or buy them an ice cream, but child care is the woman's responsibility in the time and place where he was raised. I don't think those daddy-type actions necessarily demonstrate his views on division of labor in child care. Don't forget his response when Alma asks him to wipe his daughter's nose: "I would if I had three hands!"

I also read somewhere that the grocery store scene, at some point, was supposed to come after the reunion, and also that Ennis was supposed to be running off to Jack. It was probably a good thing that was changed, otherwise we would have had Ennis telling Alma an easily disprovable lie.

Why do I think Ennis isn't thinking of the children in the later scene? Because he's carrying on because Alma's not doing what he wants her to do. It doesn't have anything at all to do with whether or not Alma, Jr., and Jenny get their supper. He's not getting his way, and it pisses him off.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2006, 03:24:37 am »
Are you saying Ennis's assumption that he can just dump the girls on Alma--in the middle of her shift at her job--because he can't tell his boss that he can't come into work is not sexist? Granted it's behavior typical of the period, but does that mean it isn't sexist, just because it's typical?

No, being typical for the time is not a factor. Having been in that two working parents/two small children situation myself (finally, Jeff! I get to play the "firsthand experience" card in a debate with you!  ;)) I can say that you do what it takes to get through each day. When my kids were the ages of Alma Jr. and Jenny, my husband and I were both reporters at the same newspaper. Daycare closed at the stroke of 6, news events weren't so punctual. We would juggle as best we could -- speeding to the daycare center in rush-hour traffic, sneaking out of the newsroom just as some big story was coming in over the police scanner, handing the kids back and forth between day shifts and night meetings, occasionally bringing a baby into the office while we pounded out a deadline story. If there were conflicts, it came down to whose particular situation was the most flexible at the moment.

Back to the movie. In this case, it appears the most flexible situation at that moment is Alma's: understanding boss, sister at the ready, no animals in a health-care crisis. Could Ennis call the sister himself? I suppose, but I know I'd sure rather my husband call his own family members to babysit in a pinch than do it myself, and I'm pretty close to my in-laws. Do they trade back and forth, so that another time Alma makes Ennis take the girls to work and everything stays equitable? Probably not. Once again, she's got the sister and the understanding boss and the job that -- though clearly not the place for toddlers -- is still probably more amenable to them than Ennis'. Whether Ennis is sexist or not, what are the chances that in them days a boss would look kindly on a dad bringing his toddlers to a ranch (as compared to Monroe's sympathetic response)?

(Remember, too, and I don't mean to sound classist or patronizing, but it's possible neither Alma -- nor maybe even Ennis -- is working for exactly the same reasons you or I might. It's less about a career or independence or self-fulfillment than it is about making money to support their family. So if Ennis interferes with Alma's job, it's not exactly like he's squashing her feminist career dreams, at most he's jeopardizing her ability to make extra money to make up for what she feels he's failing to provide.)

Still, I'll admit that as I type, I can see where the ash-can scene becomes somewhat MORE sexist by comparison. After all, in that case Ennis isn't even actually working. So there's no doubt his behavior could have been better here. Frankly, I don't know why he makes such a big thing of it or what that scene is supposed to convey, given that the filmmakers go out of their way elsewhere to show Ennis is NOT that sexist. Maybe it's about Alma's increasing disillusionment. Or maybe it has some sub-surface meaning I'm not getting. Otherwise, I'd toss it into Katie77's thread about expendible scenes.

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in his mind, child care is Alma's job. He might put his little angels to bed once in a while, or wipe their noses, or buy them an ice cream, but child care is the woman's responsibility in the time and place where he was raised. I don't think those daddy-type actions necessarily demonstrate his views on division of labor in child care. Don't forget his response when Alma asks him to wipe his daughter's nose: "I would if I had three hands!"

But to invoke Occam's Razor, you're positing a whole facet to Ennis character (child care is Alma's job) that we DON'T see, while ignoring the facet of his character (wiping noses, putting to bed) that we DO see. Yes, we know people were sexist in them days. But when we're shown a whole scene in which Ennis is acting in exact opposition to that stereotype, I don't think it's negligible, I think it's meant to make a point about his character. As for "I would if I had three hands," I think I saw somewhere that's supposed to have metaphoric meaning, but i don't remember what. Right on the surface, though, what we see is a man coming home from work and, instead of cracking a beer and turning on the TV, goes immediately to swoop up two screaming, runny-nosed toddlers, doing his best to charm them ("whoop, whoop, whoop!") into stopping their crying. Three hands? That's not a cop-out; anybody would feel the same way in the face of that wall of screams

So again, to me it doesn't make sense to watch that scene and draw exactly the opposite conclusion, that he's an inattentive dad and/or sexist husband.

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It was probably a good thing that was changed, otherwise we would have had Ennis telling Alma an easily disprovable lie

Probably not the only time that happened, I'm guessing.  ;) Though come to think of it, it doesn't make sense in this case -- if he were going off with Jack, why would he only be out "half the night"?

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Why do I think Ennis isn't thinking of the children in the later scene? Because he's carrying on because Alma's not doing what he wants her to do. It doesn't have anything at all to do with whether or not Alma, Jr., and Jenny get their supper. He's not getting his way, and it pisses him off.

Sure enough. His focus is on his anger at Alma. But it's not like he would let the girls starve ...

Tell you what, if there's one thing we're repeatedly shown about Ennis' character outside of his feelings for Jack, it's his devotion to his daughters. That part of his life is emphasized much more than it typically is in movies in which male characters,  involved in adult situations, also happen to be fathers. The standard comparison is "Walk the Line." I don't know if you saw it; it's good, Joaquin Phoenix is awesome, and I like Johnny Cash. But I can tell you we do not see any scenes of Johnny Cash wiping his children's noses. In fact, I can't remember from the movie how many children he has, or what genders. So why watch Ennis fussing over his daughters and form the conclusion that he is an inadequate father?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 03:40:36 am by latjoreme »

Offline opinionista

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Re: condiments
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2006, 08:21:41 am »
You know, I feel like such a broken record that I'm sure people just roll their eyes by now when I rush to Ennis' defense -- "Here she goes again ..." -- and skip on to the next post. But I have to say that although I am normally quite sensitive to sexist remarks, I am not offended by Ennis' behavior in the grocery-store scene.

Actually, the scene does bother me for three reasons: 1) the hint of Australian accent, which always makes me cringe 2) its seeming pointlessness and 3) Alma's oddly sudden acquiescence. As for his expression, he looks to me like he's appealing to her to be reasonable, maybe because Monroe doesn't seem to mind the mid-shift childcare juggling, whereas the foreman undoubtedly would, and also because Alma has a sister she can call on in a pinch. Some people have suggested she's backing down out of fear of violence, which seems unlikely. Others have said this scene was originally supposed to come after the reunion, which might explain why it seems pointless.


I didn't think the scene was pointless. IMO, it has the purpose of showing that Ennis was a chauvinistic, and behaved accordingly within his domestic life. The scene tries to convey that men in general were raised to behave like that, and Ennis was no exception. This isn't about giving a negative idea about Ennis as an individual, but to show a social reality. If they were to show Ennis behaving differently it would be weird and unrealistic. Also, the fact that Alma protests shows that times were changing, even in rural America. Furthermore, this scene portrays Alma's increasing unhappiness, and Monore's interest in her. It provides context to the later scene where he is shown married to Alma.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 11:07:00 am by opinionista »
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: condiments
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2006, 12:23:19 pm »
I think Ennis is very much typical of his time and culture and gender and part of the world. If Ennis were picked up and dumped into my current world, then yeah, he would seem sexist. But I don't hold it against him -- Ennis belongs to a particular time and place, and furthermore, he changes through time. (He may dump Cassie in an annoyingly passive way, but he doesn't seem to have any problems with her aspirations to go to nursing school. And he does care about his daughters a great deal.)

But to me, the grocery store scene says that the roots of the conflict between Ennis and Alma were already established before the reunion. Neither Ennis nor Alma seems to be all that aware of the other's needs. Ennis seems a bit oblivious to the demands of Alma's job. (And earlier... you know, the "did what she hated" scene always disturbs me a bit, because Alma clearly hates it, and Ennis just doesn't seem to be aware of that. If Alma seemed to be passively going along with Ennis's preferred position, that would be one thing, but the look on her face really disturbs me.) And at the same time, Alma doesn't seem to understand Ennis, either -- not just his sexuality, but the other things that drive him as well, like his preference for open spaces and work with animals. She kind of wheedles the whole living-in-town thing out of him, for instance. (Alma's got good reasons for wanting to live in town -- she's got a really hard life out in the middle of nowhere, scrubbing away at that washboard, canning food (ever noticed all the jars on her windowsill), not getting to see people much at all. But Ennis is right about the costs of living in town -- Alma trades slaving over a washboard for working in the grocery store.)

Anyway... it seems to me that neither Ennis nor Alma really pays a lot of attention to what the other one really wants or needs out of life. Maybe in a world of rigid gender roles and societal expectations, partners don't need to listen to each other. But the world around them is changing; women's roles in the wide world change during the time Ennis and Alma are married, and they can't rely on rules to keep them together. (No more than any other couple could during the time.)

(There's a great contrast between the way Ennis deals with Alma versus Jack, too. Ennis is so much more in tune with what Jack wants, quietly ordering soup after Jack's first complaint about beans.)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: condiments
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2006, 12:27:39 pm »
I didn't think the scene was pointless. IMO, it has the purpose of showing that Ennis was a chauvinistic, and behaved accordingly within his domestic life. The scene tries to convey that men in general were raised to behave like that, and Ennis was no exception. This isn't about giving a negative idea about Ennis as an individual, but to show a social reality. If they were to show Ennis behaving differently it would be weird and unrealistic. Also, the fact that Alma protests shows that times were changing, even in rural America. Furthermore, this scene portrays Alma's increasing unhappiness, and Monore's interest in her. It provides context to the later scene where he is shown married to Alma.

Thank you, opinionista! You conveyed exactly how I feel, and you did it better and more succinctly!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: condiments
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2006, 01:05:49 pm »
No, being typical for the time is not a factor. Having been in that two working parents/two small children situation myself (finally, Jeff! I get to play the "firsthand experience" card in a debate with you!  ;)) I can say that you do what it takes to get through each day. When my kids were the ages of Alma Jr. and Jenny, my husband and I were both reporters at the same newspaper. Daycare closed at the stroke of 6, news events weren't so punctual. We would juggle as best we could -- speeding to the daycare center in rush-hour traffic, sneaking out of the newsroom just as some big story was coming in over the police scanner, handing the kids back and forth between day shifts and night meetings, occasionally bringing a baby into the office while we pounded out a deadline story. If there were conflicts, it came down to whose particular situation was the most flexible at the moment.

No doubt it's that way for lots of parents. I don't envy any of them, and I'm not jokin'!

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Back to the movie. In this case, it appears the most flexible situation at that moment is Alma's: understanding boss, sister at the ready, no animals in a health-care crisis. Could Ennis call the sister himself? I suppose, but I know I'd sure rather my husband call his own family members to babysit in a pinch than do it myself, and I'm pretty close to my in-laws. Do they trade back and forth, so that another time Alma makes Ennis take the girls to work and everything stays equitable? Probably not. Once again, she's got the sister and the understanding boss and the job that -- though clearly not the place for toddlers -- is still probably more amenable to them than Ennis'. Whether Ennis is sexist or not, what are the chances that in them days a boss would look kindly on a dad bringing his toddlers to a ranch (as compared to Monroe's sympathetic response)?

The chances are nil that Ennis's boss would be understanding, I'd say. But that points to both the typicality of the situation in the period and location, and also that a ranch is no place for toddlers with no one to look after them. As for Ennis calling his family, remember, his parents are dead, his sister is in Casper (am I confused or remembering that correctly?), and I think we don't really know where his married brother is living. It never occurred to me to question that Alma's "people," including her sister, were the ones close by, so that Ennis calling his own sister wouldn't even have entered into the calculation.

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(Remember, too, and I don't mean to sound classist or patronizing, but it's possible neither Alma -- nor maybe even Ennis -- is working for exactly the same reasons you or I might. It's less about a career or independence or self-fulfillment than it is about making money to support their family. So if Ennis interferes with Alma's job, it's not exactly like he's squashing her feminist career dreams, at most he's jeopardizing her ability to make extra money to make up for what she feels he's failing to provide.)

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, but I never had the slightest doubt that Alma's job arose from economic necessity--that talk about being behind on the bills, and so forth--not from any desire on her part for self-fulfillment (times haven't changed much, have they?). He is jeopardizing her ability to make needed extra money--but that look on his face says to me that he clearly devalues her job compared to his own (one male ego speaking to another, I guess.  ;) )

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Still, I'll admit that as I type, I can see where the ash-can scene becomes somewhat MORE sexist by comparison. After all, in that case Ennis isn't even actually working. So there's no doubt his behavior could have been better here. Frankly, I don't know why he makes such a big thing of it or what that scene is supposed to convey, given that the filmmakers go out of their way elsewhere to show Ennis is NOT that sexist. Maybe it's about Alma's increasing disillusionment. Or maybe it has some sub-surface meaning I'm not getting. Otherwise, I'd toss it into Katie77's thread about expendible scenes.

We will really have to agree to disagree yet again, because I do not believe that the filmmakers "go out of their way elsewhere to show Ennis is NOT that sexist." I see virtually all of his behavior toward Alma as sexist. To be sure, he's not some chauvinist pig lout--though he does wear a "wife-beater"  ;D --but I see his behavior as sexist though typical of a man raised when and where and with the value system that he was raised.

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But to invoke Occam's Razor, you're positing a whole facet to Ennis character (child care is Alma's job) that we DON'T see, while ignoring the facet of his character (wiping noses, putting to bed) that we DO see. Yes, we know people were sexist in them days. But when we're shown a whole scene in which Ennis is acting in exact opposition to that stereotype, I don't think it's negligible, I think it's meant to make a point about his character. As for "I would if I had three hands," I think I saw somewhere that's supposed to have metaphoric meaning, but i don't remember what. Right on the surface, though, what we see is a man coming home from work and, instead of cracking a beer and turning on the TV, goes immediately to swoop up two screaming, runny-nosed toddlers, doing his best to charm them ("whoop, whoop, whoop!") into stopping their crying. Three hands? That's not a cop-out; anybody would feel the same way in the face of that wall of screams

So again, to me it doesn't make sense to watch that scene and draw exactly the opposite conclusion, that he's an inattentive dad and/or sexist husband.

Fair enough, 'bout the razor, I mean, but here we're reading the evidence that we do have differently. I see those bits of business where Ennis displays caring behavior toward his daughters as only intending only to convey that he loves them, nothing more, nothing about his ideas or role in their care. I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be, a parent, but surely it's possible for a man to love his children but still believe that their care is the responsibility of his wife. Especially when that man is an uneducated ranch hand in mid-1960s Wyoming.

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Tell you what, if there's one thing we're repeatedly shown about Ennis' character outside of his feelings for Jack, it's his devotion to his daughters. That part of his life is emphasized much more than it typically is in movies in which male characters,  involved in adult situations, also happen to be fathers. The standard comparison is "Walk the Line." I don't know if you saw it; it's good, Joaquin Phoenix is awesome, and I like Johnny Cash. But I can tell you we do not see any scenes of Johnny Cash wiping his children's noses. In fact, I can't remember from the movie how many children he has, or what genders. So why watch Ennis fussing over his daughters and form the conclusion that he is an inadequate father?

And when, may I ask, did I ever say Ennis was an inadequate father? All I said was that I believe he believes that child care is his wife's job. The "three hands" remark clearly shows his exasperation at that moment--it's directed at Alma and he's venting his annoyance at having to deal with the kids while Alma scrubs something on that washboard. And somebody, somewhere, on some thread--it wasn't me, honest it wasn't--has wondered why Alma left the baby cry and kept on with that scrubbing rather than dry her hands, let the laundry wait, and go see to the baby.

And there is plenty of evidence of his sexism in both the grocery store and "kick the can" scenes. Ennis is a man of his time and place and value system, but that doesn't make his behavior any less sexist.
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Offline ZouBEini

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Re: condiments
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 01:54:05 pm »
...Heres my question though! When Ennis takes the little girls to Alma at the 'condiments' ;D and she is arguing, trying to put him off, I found his expression ambiguous. I don't think it was anger, nor condescending amusement, but what? :-\ 

Hello Samrim, in answer to your question:

I interpret Ennis' expression to mean, "I am the man of the house and you will do as I say". 

I saw this expression on men's faces, and the same submissive reaction from "their women", many times in my youth.  My father was not raised like Ennis but I knew men who were trained to act that way.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 02:02:04 pm »
But that points to both the typicality of the situation in the period and location, and also that a ranch is no place for toddlers with no one to look after them.

Right. I'm not saying the general culture of the time and place wasn't sexist, nor that a ranch doesn't present childcare difficulties (though countless children have survived them).

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As for Ennis calling his family, remember, his parents are dead, his sister is in Casper (am I confused or remembering that correctly?), and I think we don't really know where his married brother is living. It never occurred to me to question that Alma's "people," including her sister, were the ones close by, so that Ennis calling his own sister wouldn't even have entered into the calculation.

Hunh? I must have misworded -- I wasn't suggesting Ennis call his own relatives. I was saying it would be easier for Alma to call her sister than it would be for Ennis to call Alma's sister.

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He is jeopardizing her ability to make needed extra money--but that look on his face says to me that he clearly devalues her job compared to his own (one male ego speaking to another, I guess.  ;) )

Well, again, I don't read the look that way -- I read it as suggesting that it's easier for her to take the kids under the circumstances than it would be for him. He's putting on pressure, yes. And it's quite possible he does value his job over hers. But here, his motivation seems to be to be less about male domination than expedience.

ZouBEini, the expression of Ennis' that might convey that kind of threatening look, in my view, is the one he gives Jack when he says "all them things that I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them." Here he looks less threatening than imploring.

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We will really have to agree to disagree yet again, because I do not believe that the filmmakers "go out of their way elsewhere to show Ennis is NOT that sexist." I see virtually all of his behavior toward Alma as sexist.

Hunh? Outside of the ash-can scene -- and of course the grocery store scene we're debating -- where do you see this?

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I see his behavior as sexist though typical of a man raised when and where and with the value system that he was raised ... I see those bits of business where Ennis displays caring behavior toward his daughters as only intending only to convey that he loves them, nothing more, nothing about his ideas or role in their care.

I agree that the value system in which he was raised is undoubtedly sexist -- we know that because we know something about the culture of rural uneducated America. But I see his behavior as distinctly atypical of that. As I said, he doesn't come home from work and crack a beer and turn on the TV and put his feet up and yell, "Hey Alma, I think I hear the girls crying -- better go check on em!" as the cultural sterotype would suggest.

No, just the opposite. He goes to sooth the babies, wipe their noses, later puts them to bed. I have to ask again, how often do you see men in movies doing that? It's not unheard of, but it's not common, either, and especially not when the intention is to portray a character as the sexist product of a sexist culture. To me, what Ennis is doing here IS distinctly different from just showing love. Love is promising to go to the church picnic if he doesn't have to sing. Here he's performing actual childcare -- and not the fun part, either. I don't see the "three hands" remark as venting annoyance at Alma for slaving away at her kitchen drudgery rather than rushing in to attend to her motherly duties. Not at all. I see it as the bewilderment of a man trying to sooth two screaming kids, one in each arm, a situation that can feel overwhelming to anyone, man or woman.

Look, I don't mean to portray Ennis as the Alan Alda of Riverton. I'm sure if he and I got to talking about feminism, there'd be some areas of disagreement. It's just that if Ennis were meant to seem sexist, given that there would be plenty of easy ways to suggest that, and given that men in movies aren't often shown doing domestic chores at all, then why would the fillmmakers bother showing Ennis performing childcare and clearing dishes in the first place? (It was Monroe, remember, who relaxed in front of the TV during Thanksgiving's after-dinner cleanup.)

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And somebody, somewhere, on some thread--it wasn't me, honest it wasn't--has wondered why Alma left the baby cry and kept on with that scrubbing rather than dry her hands, let the laundry wait, and go see to the baby.

No, I don't blame Alma, either. She had a lot of work to do and sick kids spend a lot of time crying. The reality of parenting is, sometimes you have to let kids cry for a few minutes, knowing they'll survive the experience. She was keeping close enough tabs, however, to know that a nose needed wiping.

BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 03:44:41 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: condiments
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 02:29:32 pm »
Time and again it's fascinating, how different one and the same scene can bee seen.
Jeff sees Ennis behaving sexist in the grocery scene, because he values his job over Alma's and he leaves it to Alma to find a babysitter for the girls.

I think it's natural that he values his job over hers (given the time and circumstances), because he is the main bread winner, she provides an auxiliary income.
Additionally has she an understanding boss, he not. It's her sister, not his (in my family it's the same: I deal with my relatives, my husband with his).

In contrast, I think it's a clearly non-sexist attitude of Ennis, that he is basically willing to take care of the children while Alma's working hours.I know women (and not too few) whose husbands never would do this. Today, notabene. These women have to place their children with other women: neighbours, sisters, sisters-in-law, a grandmother or whoever. Or have to take their children to work.

In preview I see Katherine's new post. Again she has already written what I wanted to add (and more). So I just leave it to this one example. The final game of the World Championship is now on and I wanted to see it anyway. I'll come back later.


« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 02:32:13 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline ZouBEini

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Re: condiments
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 02:32:08 pm »
ZouBEini, the expression of Ennis' that might convey that kind of threatening look, in my view, is the one he gives Jack when he says "all them things that I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them." Here he looks less threatening than imploring.

Hello, latjoreme.  In my experience, that look is nothing close to "imploring".  "Imploring doesn't cause someone to back down as quickly as Alma did.  My friends' mothers and my own aunt were frightened by that look, because a beating often followed in payment for perceived insolence.

The script might provide some indication of intent during that scene.  Please let me know what proof you find.

~Larz

Offline nakymaton

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Re: condiments
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 03:52:07 pm »
BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.

Well, all I've got to go by is a couple short scenes with Lureen. And where Jack is concerned, I tend to separate pre-divorce Jack from post-divorce Jack, because something dies in Jack when he heads for Mexico, and it seems to affect him in all his relationships. (Or maybe it's just the mustache.)

Anyway. Not much to go on. Jack plays chivalrous when he first meets Lureen, but other than the moment picking up her hat, Jack doesn't play the old-time traditional man very much. We see Lureen working, even quite early in the 70's, and it doesn't seem to bother Jack that she's got the money, and she's the one who seems to be the next boss (after LD) in the family business. (And the whole exchange about Bobby's tutor -- though it seems a bit premature, given how young Bobby is at that time ;D -- suggests a much more egalitarian relationship. There's no sense that Jack thinks Lureen ought to be the one talking to the teacher; in fact, Jack's already tried and been ineffective. "I complain too much, teacher don't like me, now it's your turn.")

Jack is more willing to ditch tradition than Ennis is, plus Jack is more tuned in to other people. (You could see this as a positive or a negative thing; Jack is also a bit of a chameleon, acting like a different person in different situations, responding to what other people want or expect him to be. A good characteristic in a salesman, but can be a bit annoying in a real person.)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 04:03:57 pm »
Hello, latjoreme.  In my experience, that look is nothing close to "imploring".  "Imploring doesn't cause someone to back down as quickly as Alma did.  My friends' mothers and my own aunt were frightened by that look, because a beating often followed in payment for perceived insolence.

The script might provide some indication of intent during that scene.  Please let me know what proof you find.

~Larz

Hi Larz! Well, "imploring" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, and open to debate. But yeah, that's how I see it: imploring, beseeching, even pressuring or attempting to emotionally manipulate.

But do you see Ennis' look as suggesting that he might beat Alma for her perceived insolence?! I find no evidence to suggest he's a wife beater (aside from, as Jeff quipped, the tank top). Yeah, years later, when they're divorced and he feels embittered toward her, when she insults the love of his life and publicly accuses him -- daughters in the next room -- of doing something he's spent his entire life trying to hide, then he does grab her wrist roughly and threaten her. (And don't get me wrong -- whatever the provocation, that is not admirable behavior on Ennis' part.) But even then he doesn't actually hurt her. So it's really hard to imagine him posing a physical threat over a childcare disagreement.

He's not even really frowning! He just looks impatient and exasperated.

As to why Alma backs down so abruptly -- I don't know, it seems odd, and I've always seen that as a flaw in the scene. Maybe she suddenly decides he's right. Maybe she knows he's stubborn and won't back down, so she might as well give up now.

But surely it can't be fear of a beating -- in the ash-can scene she's not the least bit intimidated by his anger, and he's much angrier there.

Mel, your post came in while I was writing. I agree. I don't see Jack as sexist, either.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: condiments
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 04:05:22 pm »
Hunh? I must have misworded -- I wasn't suggesting Ennis call his own relatives. I was saying it would be easier for Alma to call her sister than it would be for Ennis to call Alma's sister.

Just FYI, this is what prompted my pointing out that Ennis really couldn't call his relatives to babysit. If I misread your point, my apologies.

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Could Ennis call the sister himself? I suppose, but I know I'd sure rather my husband call his own family members to babysit in a pinch than do it myself, and I'm pretty close to my in-laws.


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Well, again, I don't read the look that way -- I read it as suggesting that it's easier for her to take the kids under the circumstances than it would be for him. He's putting on pressure, yes. And it's quite possible he does value his job over hers. But here, his motivation seems to be to be less about male domination than expedience.

It's possible he values his job more? Just possible? Who do you think he is, the Alan Alda of mid-60s Wyoming?  ;)


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(Behavior toward Alma as sexist) Hunh? Outside of the ash-can scene -- and of course the grocery store scene we're debating -- where do you see this?

How about "doing what she hates" in bed? Never taking her anywhere (e.g. the church social) because he doesn't want to?

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I agree that the value system in which he was raised is undoubtedly sexist -- we know that because we know something about the culture of rural uneducated America. But I see his behavior as distinctly atypical of that. As I said, he doesn't come home from work and crack a beer and turn on the TV and put his feet up and yell, "Hey Alma, I think I hear the girls crying -- better go check on em!" as the cultural sterotype would suggest.

OK, though I don't believe everyone behaves stereotypically all the time.

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No, just the opposite. He goes to sooth the babies, wipe their noses, later puts them to bed. I have to ask again, how often do you see men in movies doing that? It's not unheard of, but it's not common, either, and especially not when the intention is to portray a character as the sexist product of a sexist culture. To me, what Ennis is doing here IS distinctly different from just showing love. Love is promising to go to the church picnic if he doesn't have to sing. Here he's performing actual childcare -- and not the fun part, either. I don't see the "three hands" remark as venting annoyance at Alma for slaving away at her kitchen drudgery rather than rushing in to attend to her motherly duties. Not at all. I see it as the bewilderment of a man trying to sooth two screaming kids, one in each arm, a situation that can feel overwhelming to anyone, man or woman.

Look, I don't mean to portray Ennis as the Alan Alda of Riverton. I'm sure if he and I got to talking about feminism, there'd be some areas of disagreement. It's just that if Ennis were meant to seem sexist, given that there would be plenty of easy ways to suggest that, and given that men in movies aren't often shown doing domestic chores at all, then why would the fillmmakers bother showing Ennis performing childcare and clearing dishes in the first place? (It was Monroe, remember, who relaxed in front of the TV during Thanksgiving's after-dinner cleanup.)

Even a male chauvinist pig who is a guest at a holiday dinner in someone's home might bend so far as to take a plate or two to the kitchen, don't you think? The filmmakers needed a device to get Ennis into the kitchen. All Annie Proulx had to say was, "After the pie, Alma got him off in the kitchen" (presumably no pun intended), as though all she might have done was call out, "Hey, Ennis, would you come here a minute?"

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No, I don't blame Alma, either. She had a lot of work to do and sick kids spend a lot of time crying. The reality of parenting is, sometimes you have to let kids cry for a few minutes, knowing they'll survive the experience. She was keeping close enough tabs, however, to know that a nose needed wiping.

Good point. I merely reported what I read elsewhere.

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BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.

That's a good question, too. My response to it is, we don't see enough of Jack's domestic life with Lureen to really answer it. (I know you don't like this sort of thing, but I find it interesting to note that in the 2004 screenplay, it was Lureen who complained too much to Bobby's school and was disliked by Bobby's teacher)
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Offline ZouBEini

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Re: condiments
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 06:37:20 pm »
Sorry for the delay.  I've given the topic of Ennis' expression some consideration and while we each see it differently, I'm not able to justify debating a 10 second piece of one scene at any length.  I respect everyone's opinions and feel no need to change them.  In my opinion, debates built solidly on opinions sometimes have shaky foundations. 

As I said before, if anyone finds quantifiable proof I would like to know.  Thanks!

Oh, and I don't see Jack as being sexist.  His character is too boundless to be sexist IMO.

~Larz

Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 07:02:30 pm »
Just FYI, this is what prompted my pointing out that Ennis really couldn't call his relatives to babysit. If I misread your point, my apologies.

I know. You did. That's OK.
 
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It's possible he values his job more? Just possible? Who do you think he is, the Alan Alda of mid-60s Wyoming?  ;)

 :laugh: OK, so not Alan Alda. How about Phil Donahue?

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How about "doing what she hates" in bed? Never taking her anywhere (e.g. the church social) because he doesn't want to?

The first thing: maybe, though I hesitate to apply politics to people's sexual habits. (As you note, I don't like to site the story, but at least there he didn't neglect her needs entirely!) The second thing: that's not sexist, that's boring. Sexist would be not letting HER go on her own.

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OK, though I don't believe everyone behaves stereotypically all the time.

Me neither. But I thought that's what we were debating -- whether he behaves stereotypically or not.

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Even a male chauvinist pig who is a guest at a holiday dinner in someone's home might bend so far as to take a plate or two to the kitchen, don't you think?

Apparently you've never had dinner at my mother-in-law's house. Not only do no men ever lift a finger to help with the after-dinner cleanup, but my mother-in-law wouldn't dream of expecting them to. And they're not even all that sexist!

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Good point. I merely reported what I read elsewhere.

I know.

Oh, and I don't see Jack as being sexist.  His character is too boundless to be sexist IMO.

Agreed about Jack. And I feel the same way about Ennis. In fact, I think all of the characters in the movie are so complex and unpredictable they defy stereotyping and pigeonholing.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: condiments
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 07:08:16 pm »
Katherine, you don't think someone can be sexist without being a stereotype? Tell you what, I think sexism is a continuum. Ennis isn't at the far end of it - he's not even half as bad as my high school teachers were in the 80's - but, on the other hand, he's further towards the sexist end than my father, and my father is far from perfect.

Nobody in BBM is a stereotype. Well, except maybe the biker dudes and LaShawn.  ;D
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: condiments
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2006, 07:14:39 pm »
I may totally off-base here, but I think Ennis' expression and general attitude toward Alma in this scene is an indication that he just does not love her.  In fact, I believe this scene is showing us the widening water between them.  Neither are happy, and I doubt Alma is even in love at this point.  I think Ennis is so unhappy, he misses Jack, feels that marrying Alma was expected, but a mistake.  I believe Ennis would have been more sympathetic to Alma if he truly loved her.  I don't think Ennis is sexist.  As others have said, Ennis considers his job more important, which is a typical male attitude in that day and time.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: condiments
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2006, 07:52:44 pm »
Wow - interesting discussion. A couple of points that came to my mind while reading:

I think it's significant to this discussion that Ennis clearly loves - and takes care of (as in nose-wiping and so forth) - his daughters. In the short story he complains to the effect that "I used a want a boy for a kid - but just got little girls." The fact that we don't get any such statement - or sense any such sentiment on his part in the film (at least, I don't) shows me he's not at the worst end of Mel's continuum.

The scene at the grocery store seems to me to be as much as anything about the ongoing topic and conflict of being a husband and father "supporting them" vs. Ennis's relationship with Jack that runs through the entire film. Here, before the reunion, Ennis adheres to traditional thinking and is not willing to risk his job or make any concessions or adaptions in that connection. The contrast comes later, for instance when he rushes off, loosely figuring that the foreman ows him some days off. 

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: condiments
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2006, 09:33:52 pm »
Apparently you've never had dinner at my mother-in-law's house. Not only do no men ever lift a finger to help with the after-dinner cleanup, but my mother-in-law wouldn't dream of expecting them to. And they're not even all that sexist!

What has dinner at your mother-in-law's got to do with Ennis?  :-\
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2006, 11:51:47 pm »
Katherine, you don't think someone can be sexist without being a stereotype?

Sure I do (think someone can be sexist without being a stereotype). But Ennis happens to be neither, at least not to any great degree. The theme that keeps reappearing throughout this conversation is that Ennis MUST be a sexist, because we know what kind of background he comes from, and we know that background is sexist, and Ennis in some ways represents the cultural ideal of that background -- iconic cowboy, masculine, strong, stoic -- and because he gets Alma to take the kids on that particular day, so therefore Ennis must be sexist. To me, that assumption is a stereotype.

What I'm saying is that if the filmmakers wanted to portray him as sexist, it would have been extremely easy to do so. OK, so maybe -- given their level of creativity -- they wouldn't have reached for the obvious conventions (beer in hand, feet on coffee table, ballgame on TV, etc.). Maybe they would have found some more original way to send the message that Ennis is sexist. But they don't, at least not in my view. In fact, they go out of their way to show Ennis behaving exactly the opposite of how we think sexists behave -- caring for his daughters when they're sick, watching them, as Penthesilea points out, while his wife is at work.

Back to Johnny Cash. Few people would come out of that movie going, "That Johnny Cash, what a sexist!" even though Johnny also grew up in a sexist culture and as far as I can remember (seven months after seeing the movie) spent zero time caring for his kids. But because Johnny in so many other ways breaches his culture's rules, we have no reason to tie him to his culture's sexism. (Note: I'm not saying he necessarily is sexist; I love Johnny Cash. I'm just saying you could just as easily conclude from the movie that he is -- more so, in fact, than Ennis.) Ennis, on the other hand, conforms to his cultural norms -- in some ways. Does that mean he conforms in all ways? Well, if you ask me, to assume so is a stereotype.

True, Ennis is not the perfect feminist ("nobody's eatin it unless you're servin it!") but if someone like me -- someone who once fired a tax preparer because he automatically put my husband's name first on the 1040 form -- can come out without being offended, surely he can't be that bad.

Another reason for my view goes back to Jeff's Occam's Razor. Why would the filmmakers necessarily want to show that Ennis is sexist? How does that advance the plot at all? What does his potential sexism have to do with either the love story or the tragedy or anything else important? His conflict with Alma seems to be mainly about Ennis being gay and Alma being frustrated by that. True, there's a subplot about money, but that also goes back to the love story (Ennis is willing to sacrifice jobs for Jack). So how would his sexism be relevant? If anything, it would confuse the issue (did Alma divorce him because he's gay and not a good provider, or because he's a chauvinist pig?). The filmmakers want to make him seem part of his milieu, and from a storyteller's perspective, it's worth putting in enough details to make the situation believable (see my "coffee pot" sig, below), so of course Ennis is not the world's most sensitive feminist. But the filmmakers know it's counterproductive to emphasize a characteristic -- such as sexism -- that has no impact on the main plot. What has a greater impact is that he loves his daughters a lot, to the point that he's more solicitous of them than the average circa-1960s rancher dad.

And still another reason is like what I suggested in a recent post, on a different thread, about Mr. Twist. I think it's a mistake to find something in a character just because circumstances lead you to expect it to be there. Mr. Twist, lo and behold, much as you might expect the contrary, is not homophobic. The movie demands that we look beyond our expectations. We assume Mr. Twist is homophobic, because he ran Jack off and Jack is gay, because he's from the same cultural millieu as Mr. del Mar, because if anything Jack's dad is even more of a jerk on the surface than Ennis' dad, and becaue homophobes are jerks ... yet, in fact, he's not in any obvious way homophobic.

Jerk? Absolutely. Homophobe? Show me the evidence. And that's the whole point of his character.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 12:03:46 am »
What has dinner at your mother-in-law's got to do with Ennis?  :-\


I remember one time when, in the after-dinner cleanup, my husband came into the kitchen and loudly said, "What can I do to help?" My mother-in-law literally ignored him. No answer at all, as if he hadn't spoken. Yet if it had been me or one of my sister-in-laws, she would have said, "Could you put the leftover potatoes in a Tupperware?" Or whatever. Normally, in that family, the women a) cook the meal and b) clean up afterward, while the menfolk relax.

And yet my mother- and father-in-law are not particularly sexist. Don't get me wrong, they're not absolutely free of traditional assumptions, but if you knew them you would not consider that a defining characteristic. (And actually, in that familiy, with a wife good at cooking and cleaning and a husband skilled at automotives and carpentry, a traditional division of labor makes sense.)

But anyway. The point is that although Ennis clearing the dishes doesn't make him Alan Alda, it's not nothin.

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Re: condiments
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2006, 04:43:53 am »
Hi everybody!  I’ve just read this thread for the first time and I’d like to chime in with my opinion.  (I quote some people below and I hope I give correct credit to each quote.  If I don’t, I apologize in advance.)

Let me first say that I have a different take on Ennis’ look in the grocery store scene.  I’ll get to that later.  But first, about the back-and-forth debate whether Ennis’ is sexist or a chauvinist, I’d have to give a resounding “No!”  I agree with just about everything latjoreme has said in this thread, probably the most important thing of all:

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The movie demands that we look beyond our expectations.

This is one of the most true statements ever made about this film.  Our boys are not stereotypic homosexuals, nor are they stereotypic cowboys, nor is their love story stereotypic.  They are all very real to the characters as created.

I see a little bit of expectation on Ennis’ part for traditional roles – the ash-kicking scene – but other than that, I think the film does go out of its way to show that Ennis, as a married husband and father, is not what we would expect of a traditionally stereotypic husband and father of the time.

(I wonder if it’s important that I add a side note here about my own bias – I am neither for nor against Jack or Ennis, in terms of choosing one as the better of the two, or one more at fault, or one more … whatever.  I try to put all of my preconceptions aside and just let the film speak about Jack and Ennis and I take them for what they are – how they are presented.  I like some things in each and I dislike some things in each.  But they are who they are.)


Jeff Wrangler said:

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Why do I think Ennis isn't thinking of the children in the later scene? Because he's carrying on because Alma's not doing what he wants her to do. It doesn't have anything at all to do with whether or not Alma, Jr., and Jenny get their supper. He's not getting his way, and it pisses him off.

I agree.  There is no doubt that Ennis is pissed off here -- but why?  Why really?

But latjoreme said:

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Maybe it's about Alma's increasing disillusionment.

Again, I agree.

I believe that in this scene we are seeing their marriage deteriorate.  Alma is disillusioned.  She’s going to stand up for herself, not in an “I am Woman” way; rather, as a (perhaps subconscious) statement that she is disillusioned about her relationship with a man who kissed another man passionately in her own backyard.  Part of it is she wants to get away from Ennis, part of it is she wants to get away from “that home,” part of it is she wants to get away from “that life,” and all of it is conveniently accessible to her in signing up for another shift at a place away from Ennis, away from “that home,” and away from “that life.”  I view Alma’s departure here as being escapism.  The issue in this scene is NOT chauvinism or traditional roles.  Latjoreme is 100% correct in observing that Ennis is NOT painted that way for us – his caring for the girls and so much more.  The issue in this scene is Ennis, her husband, is gay.  She’s avoiding dealing  with the issue by escaping to a place where she doesn’t have to deal with it and where she gets calm, kind comfort from another man.  As I said, this is probably all subconscious, but I believe this is what this scene is about for Alma.

As to Ennis in this scene, I don’t think it’s about chauvinism – because I believe he is portrayed in the film exactly opposite from chauvinism.  It’s about his fears of rejection and abandonment that have haunted him ever since his parents died, his brother and sister left him, and Jack left him.  Again, I don’t think it’s conscious on Ennis’ part.  When two people argue, it’s very seldom that they’re really arguing about what’s on the surface.  Usually in big arguments, it goes much deeper.  It’s not about who’s working and who’s cooking, and who’s feeding.  It is about the deeper unresolved issue within each person that makes their desire to win the argument so vital.  Is this really an argument about something just so simple as serving the kids dinner?  No.   It’s about their own issues and that’s why they let the argument escalate – in fact, that’s why they MAKE it escalate.

Now, because I believe it’s about deep-seated issues within each of them, I reject the chauvinist approach because it’s not a central idea to the film.  What are central to the film are Alma’s disillusionment, avoidance and escapism, and also Ennis’ fears of rejection and abandonment.  They both know their marriage is on the rocks and these are the issues that really scare them when they think about their marriage being on the rocks.

Now, back to the grocery store scene…

Latjoreme said:

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… its seeming pointlessness and 3) Alma's oddly sudden acquiescence. As for his expression, he looks to me like he's appealing to her to be reasonable, maybe because Monroe doesn't seem to mind the mid-shift childcare juggling, whereas the foreman undoubtedly would, and also because Alma has a sister she can call on in a pinch. Some people have suggested she's backing down out of fear of violence, which seems unlikely.

It’s not pointless.  It ties VERY strongly to an earlier and a later scene.  Sorry, folks, I’ll get to that in a minute when I get into my take on this scene.

Everything else latjoreme said here, I can see as good observations and comments.  And I agree wholeheartedly that fear of violence is not an issue here.  This is their first fight.  And later, Ennis' violence is seen (by Alma) only twice: first, as a physical attack on bikers – not on Alma – and second, after her Thanksgiving Spectacular – directed against Alma, but NOT physical. 

Also latjoreme is very correct in pointing out:

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It's less about a career or independence or self-fulfillment than it is about making money to support their family. So if Ennis interferes with Alma's job, it's not exactly like he's squashing her feminist career dreams, at most he's jeopardizing her ability to make extra money to make up for what she feels he's failing to provide.

Agreed.  It’s about making money to make ends meet.  This scene is not about sexism or chauvinism.

And finally, here’s my take on this scene, why I believe it’s not pointless, and why I believe it’s not about sexism or chauvinism.

Earlier in the film, Alma wanted to move to town.  Ennis said it was too expensive in town.  This scene continues with that idea – that Ennis moved to town to please Alma (as symbolized by the fact that they moved next to the Elk Lodge – whenever there’s an elk, Ennis is trying to please someone with a poor substitute of what he can truly give).  And, that Ennis was correct.  It was too expensive.  So Alma has a job now.  She had to take a job to make more money to afford the move to town that she wanted and that Ennis’ finally acquiesced to against his better judgment – a recurring theme in the film.

Later in the film, we see that Ennis would not hold a job so he could be available for Jack.  We also see Alma complaining (and rightly so) about Ennis’ employment.  But we also see that before the reunion Ennis was having trouble keeping a steady job.  He worked, yes; but, not steady employment.  (He worked on a paving crew, he worked on a ranch.)  And in this scene, the calves are acomin’.  He’s called in to work and it appears that he’s not there everyday.  He just got called in.

Now, in the grocery store scene, Ennis comes arunnin’ in because he’s been called to go off to do a job and make money.  He’s doing what Alma has been complaining about.  Now that Ennis has a job to go and do, what does Alma do?  “What about my job?”  (And I’m not judging her for that response.)  So what does Ennis do?  Chauvinism?  Nope.  That’s not present here.  Potential violence?  Nope.  That’s not present here.  What’s present here is Alma and her complaints and Ennis actually doing something that should make Alma happy – albeit at the wrong time and in the wrong place.  So Ennis throws her a look that says “Listen bitch, you’re the one who’s been after me to work all this time…”  And Alma recognizes that and she acquiesces.  She says ”You’re right.”  With the unspoken words of “You’re right.  I have been on your case about that and now you have a job to go and do.  You’re right.”  Not "You're right, you sexist pig."  Not "You're right, you scary violent man."  But just simply "Here, now, you ARE right."

Also, this scene has a strong point in connection with the “morning after the motel” scene.  Alma asks Ennis whether he’s worried about losing his job – trying to keep him from going off with Jack.  She’s got a good point.  That should keep him home.  After all, look at how responsible he was to his job back at the grocery store scene.  But it doesn’t keep him home.  This is why the grocery store scene is so important: Because it, along with the "morning after motel" scene, shows Alma her place in Ennis’ heart – second to Jack.


Finally – someone said:

Quote
As for "I would if I had three hands," I think I saw somewhere that's supposed to have metaphoric meaning, but i don't remember what.

 ;)






« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 04:53:38 am by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: condiments
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2006, 09:12:06 am »
Back to Johnny Cash. Few people would come out of that movie going, "That Johnny Cash, what a sexist!" even though Johnny also grew up in a sexist culture and as far as I can remember (seven months after seeing the movie) spent zero time caring for his kids.

This is a good point. But I think that it points out how different BBM is from most Hollywood movies. Walk the Line portrayed Johnny Cash's first wife as a shrew who didn't understand his need to play music. (Aside: I think I heard an interview with Roseanne Cash in which she briefly mentioned that the portrayal of her mother bothered her.) So any of Johnny's failings as far as family life go become easy to excuse, because the audience just wants Johnny to keep making music.

BBM could easily have made Alma and Lureen into villains. (It wouldn't even be that hard to change the condiments scene to make Alma clearly the bad person -- take out the line about "what about my job," make Ennis's expression in that look just a bit weaker and more pleading, make Alma just a bit less understanding.) But BBM doesn't do that; nobody in the movie is an angel except you and Jenny here, and nobody is clearly to blame. (And viewers argue about who's to blame, and some are unfair to Ennis, and some to Jack, and TJ was unfair to the screenwriters who inserted the women in to the story. And I think that's one reason why BBM bothers some people... you get to the end of the movie and Jack's dead and Ennis is alone and the audience doesn't even have the satisfaction of having somebody obvious to be mad at.)
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: condiments
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2006, 10:27:54 am »
I'm wondering (this happens a lot!) whether to just keep silent when something is being discussed and my views have already been argued by someone else, much more eloquently than I ever could. But what the heck. I completely agree with you Katherine, and Mel, and others who share your views. Ennis is not sexist, nor is Jack - if anything, they both belong towards the other end of the scale when considering their time and place.

Without going into the filmmakers' intentions and character and specific scene analysis that has alreeady been covered here so brilliantly - I build my view on simple recognition and RL comparison. I'm of an age with Alma Junior. Born in an European city, thus different from rural Wyoming but IMO hardly less backwards. Comparing the dads of my local community where I and my siblings grew up to Ennis and Jack, I would say the vast majority of those dads showed less interest in the child-tutoring and nose-wiping and church-picnic'ing and plate-clearing than we see Ennis and Jack do. Everything to do with the kids was the mothers' responsibility. Most men did not have working wives at all, many would in fact have been appalled and would have felt it reflected poorly on them as family providers if their wives had even suggested going to work. Part time jobs were somewhat acceptable though, but only if the family couldn't manage financially without both husband and wife working. Many of those men certainly would have felt belittled if the wife was a business partner and even the main bread-winner like Lureen may be considered to be in the Twist household. Thinking back on this, I'm actually completely appalled at how the accepted and pervasive husband/wife dynamics were back then, - just one generation ago really. But that doesn't change that they actually *were* like that, - and that Ennis and Jack by comparison IMO, when considering both their behaviour towards their wives *and* how much they were engaged in their kids' wellbeing and upbringing, seem less sexist and more egalitarian than the average Joes of their time. When it comes to their care of and connection with their children, the filmmakers have deliberately chosen to present both men in a more positive light (both contrasting their own horrible fathers......) than the short story does. That's one of the main reasons I prefer the film over the short story, if forced to choose; - I am entirely happpy that Ennis and Jack are presented as (mostly) good fathers.

Offline opinionista

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Re: condiments
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2006, 11:44:05 am »
BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.

We aren't given enough information about Jack's domestic life to analize his behavior as a husband and a father. However, I think his situation was different because he wasn't the main provider. Lureen was, and that puts Jack in an weaker position. In Jack's case LD. Newsome called the shots most of the time. But I bet Jack, deep inside, could not be too different from Ennis. He probably expected from Lureen the same behavior and attitudes Ennis expected from Alma, but he had no support and no means, which made him feel powerless IMO. Ennis had more power because he was the main provider, Jack wasn't. Jack had to live under LD Newsome's shadow.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 12:26:38 pm by opinionista »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2006, 01:16:50 pm »
Thanks for agreeing with me, Ruthlessly, and also for your excellent analyses of the two scenes.

Your ideas about the undercurrents in the ash-can argument sound right to me. Regarding Ennis, maybe he's afraid not only of abandonment, but also of what a divorce might suggest about him. Maybe he has picked up on vibes between Monroe and Alma; the rest of us certainly have. And if his wife refuses a traditional domestic role (serving dinner), if she leaves him, especially if she leaves him for another man (and kind of a wimpy man at that!), then what does that say about Ennis? Could it be more evidence that he's ... um, not the marrying kind?

You've convinced me that the grocery-store scene is not pointless. Now that you mention it, I can see that in the pre-camping scene when Alma, in that panicky voice, brings up Ennis' job and Ennis blows it off ("That foreman, he owes me ...") it does carry a faint reminder of this grocery store exchange. And that interpretation of the scene provides a better explanation than any of the others suggested here -- including mine -- for Ennis' look. It's not just simple beseeching, as I said -- "C'mon, Alma" -- it's more like, "Alma, remember we talked about this ..." That matches the slight tilt of his head and intense stare (trying to remind her of what they said, without having to discuss it in public). And that perfectly explains why she backs down so abruptly.

Yet another expample of how everything in the movie really does make sense if you look deep enough. (Well, everything except maybe some of the chronology, but that's another issue ...)

Offline opinionista

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Re: condiments
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 01:49:45 pm »
I respect everyone's opinion in this forum. All the postings are interesting, but there's something I would like to ask. Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too. As I said above, in Jack's case it's different because he wasn't the main provider, but he was a chauvinist too. Perhaps I'm too down to earth but some scenes have the purpose of creating context for us to know the kind of society the plot takes place, so the story makes sense, IMO. I also wonder why some of you think calling Ennis a chauvinist is an insult to the character. It just a feature that shows the character's mind frame, and also the time and the culture to which they belong. It pretty much explains Ennis behavior towards Jack too.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 01:53:25 pm by opinionista »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2006, 02:09:56 pm »
Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.

Because this movie continually asks us to set aside our preconceptions and judge people not on our expectations but on the behavior we are shown. For example, the movie shows us that our preconceptions of how cowboys behave when they're alone together may not have been accurate. In other words, it's partly about looking beyond cultural stereotypes.

Quote
I also wonder why some of you think calling Ennis a chauvinist is an insult to the character.

Because sexism, IMO, is a bad thing. Even in 1960s Wyoming it was a bad thing, whether most people thought so then or not.

Quote
It pretty much explains Ennis behavior towards Jack too.

Hunh?

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: condiments
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2006, 02:56:45 pm »
Thanks for agreeing with me, Ruthlessly, and also for your excellent analyses of the two scenes.

My pleasure, ma’am.


Quote
Regarding Ennis, maybe he's afraid not only of abandonment, but also of what a divorce might suggest about him. Maybe he has picked up on vibes between Monroe and Alma; the rest of us certainly have. And if his wife refuses a traditional domestic role (serving dinner), if she leaves him, especially if she leaves him for another man (and kind of a wimpy man at that!), then what does that say about Ennis? Could it be more evidence that he's ... um, not the marrying kind?

Yep.  I have no problem with this at all.  It certainly is in Ennis’ character.  There’s no reason why several aspects of a character’s character cannot be involved at the same time – as long as the aspects are truly part of the character’s character.


Quote
You've convinced me that the grocery-store scene is not pointless. Now that you mention it, I can see that in the pre-camping scene when Alma, in that panicky voice, brings up Ennis' job and Ennis blows it off ("That foreman, he owes me ...") it does carry a faint reminder of this grocery store exchange.

Yep.  As I always say, the first place to look for interpretation to an otherwise confusing scene or reference is at the previous scene or two and the one or ones that immediately follow.  All of the scenes in the movie transition perfectly and each time for a reason.


Quote
Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.

You have just given one of the strongest answers to your own question.  As has been noted, this film is great because it does not give us what’s expected.  Most men in the 1960s weren’t gay… most women in the 1960s didn’t ride horses in competition… most men in the 1960s didn’t show their children dead bodies… etc.  All true statements.  So even if we expect these things in our cast of characters, we have to take how they are presented to us – we have to accept them for what and who they are.

Ennis and Jack were specifically portrayed as not displaying many qualities that we associate with a sexist or chauvinistic man.  And Ennis was displayed as a man who specifically did things that we do not expect to see in a sexist or chauvinistic man.  Someone in a post above said that when Ennis tended to the kids while Alma did the laundry, he looked angry at Alma.  I just don’t see this.  He was simply being a good dad – he practically darted into their room, and on his own accord.  Certainly he was frustrated with the situation.  Who isn’t frustrated trying to comfort two crying infants?

Finally, there are many emotions that play out in the film.  When looking to interpret them, it’s best to go back to the character as he or she has been presented to us.  Look at what the character has said and done and what things are important – what are the driving emotions and issues behind each character.  Sexism and chauvinism are not portrayed as being driving issues in this film.  And this is what makes the film great.  It creates complex characters but it does not allow otherwise minor character points to muddy the theme of the film -- the destructive effects of rural homophobia.


Quote
As I said above, in Jack's case it's different because he wasn't the main provider, but he was a chauvinist too.

I know the film pretty well and I’m pretty good at dissecting it and analyzing it, etc.; but, this one is a real stumper – both assertions.




« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 02:59:13 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline opinionista

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Re: condiments
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2006, 03:27:11 pm »
Because this movie continually asks us to set aside our preconceptions and judge people not on our expectations but on the behavior we are shown. For example, the movie shows us that our preconceptions of how cowboys behave when they're alone together may not have been accurate. In other words, it's partly about looking beyond cultural stereotypes.

Because sexism, IMO, is a bad thing. Even in 1960s Wyoming it was a bad thing, whether most people thought so then or not.

Hunh?


Well, I agree with what you say about the movie encouraging us to look beyond stereotypes, but still think Ennis lives in a world of unrelenting chauvinism. And so does Jack. Otherwise the story doesn't make sense, IMO.

I can't discuss it any further because I don't have time. But I would like to explain the last line which you answered Hunh? The roots of chauvinsm and homophobia are the same. It's the same kind of mind frame. That doesn't mean that a chauvinist is always an homophobic or vice versa, it depends on many things, but the roots are the same.

Quote
Ennis and Jack were specifically portrayed as not displaying many qualities that we associate with a sexist or chauvinistic man

How about the scene in which he tells Alma she has to serve the food? He says it's your duty to serve it, or something like that. That's a chauvinistic behavior. The topic of the movie is not about Ennis being a chauvinist, so obviously we wont see that many scenes where he is behaving like one. It just a part of the character. Those scenes are there to give us an idea of what is his frame of mind. That's all.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 04:53:49 pm by opinionista »
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: condiments
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2006, 05:20:20 pm »
You can watch the movie on several different levels. On the sociological level, this scene helps show the poverty of the little struggling family as well as the changing times, in that Alma Has a job and she doesn't just automatically cave when Ennis shows up to dump the children on her.

But on another level, this is the first of three times that Alma protests Ennis's behavior. The other two are when he wants her to stay and serve dinner and then when she wants him to "protect" her against another pregnancy. Certain actions happen in threes in this movie. I haven't quite figured out why.
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ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: condiments
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2006, 06:10:36 pm »
How about the scene in which he tells Alma she has to serve the food? He says it's your duty to serve it, or something like that. That's a chauvinistic behavior. The topic of the movie is not about Ennis being a chauvinist, so obviously we wont see that many scenes where he is behaving like one. It just a part of the character. Those scenes are there to give us an idea of what is his frame of mind. That's all.

Yes, I have no problem with agreeing that there are little bits of sexism or chauvinism, but what I was getting at in the line of mine that you quoted is that the film gives us a stronger message against their being sexists and chauvinists than it gives us a message that they are.

The little bits of sexism and chauvinism are very insignificant to what is really going on in each scene where such things do appear.  One of the things that makes this film great is that its subtext is almost always much more important than its text.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: condiments
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2006, 10:22:30 am »
Clearly, he does not value Alma's job--maybe even resents that she he has it. His attitude is that his job is the important one (he might get fired if any of the calves die), and Alma's job doesn't matter--never mind if she got fired for taking off in the middle of her shift. She's a woman and his wife, and her place is in the home. Like I said, male chauvinist.

A bit of defense here from a straight female who's been a feminist all her life:

IMO, there's a legit reason for Ennis' annoyance if you look at it as a long-term thing. He mentions to Jack that he's saving for a place of his own and mentions it in the same remark where he talks about marrying Alma. The impression I got was that he saw that, mistakenly or not, as something they were going to share. When Alma talks him into moving to town, his initial reaction is that it will be more expensive but in the next scene where you see him, there they are living above the laundromat,* and Alma as well as her husband has a job. The impression I got in that sequence was that even if Jack hadn't come back into Ennis' life, with the resulting "fishing trips" derailing various jobs, that was the beginning of the end of Ennis' idea of having their own place.

So I'd interpret at least some of his reaction in that scene to somewhat justified pissed-offness that she's gotten what she wanted in that sense but now doesn't want to deal with the consequences.

One last thing - one thing I noticed in the scenes before that was that at that point, Ennis was actually a lot more closely involved in taking care of the children than most young fathers of that era were.  In the rented house scene, he goes into the next room to deal with both crying kids on his own and in the bedroom scene later he's clearly been the one to put them to bed. However that might look today, it was really pretty remarkable for a young father in that era.

Not a PC view, but that's my take on it.


* Since there's a scene with Alma washing not only her own clothes but her husband's and two kids' clothes by hand on a washboard, I can certainly see how living above a laundromat would have a definite allure.  Even with running water in the house, that's a hard, boring, time-consuming chore.

Offline Marty

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Re: condiments
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2006, 11:08:54 am »
Hi, everyone.  I've enjoyed reading the discussions here, and I'm looking forward to more! 

What we know for sure about Ennis is his investment in "the way things are supposed to be."  His struggle is reconciling his reality with his "supposed to's.:  He's supposed to get married, supposed to have kids, supposed to have a family, supposed to support them, supposed to be there when the calves are born, and supposed to not love another man.  He doesn't have a clear picture of how he's supposed to do all that (since his parents died and he was raised, then more or less abandoned, by siblings) and he's keenly aware of how he's failed in all of the "supposed to's."

I saw the grocery store scene and the extra shift scene in that light.  In both, he's being slapped in the face by his own failure to meet that standard.  If he was making enough money, his wife wouldn't have to go to work.  If he had succeeded in doing what he was supposed to do, she'd have been at home taking care of the kids.  It's not about whose job is more important, it's about his realization of his own inability to be a good man (according to the unrealistic standard that he perceives to have been set).  His real anger is toward himself, and because that's too uncomfortable for him to acknowledge, it is expressed at Alma, the evidence of all his failings.

I hope that doesn't sound too psychoanalytical.   That's just kind of how I see the character.

Marty


Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2006, 12:50:50 pm »
Hi Marge and Marty, you both make excellent points! Neither too un-PC, nor too psychoanalytical, for the record. They deepen my understanding of that situation.

Marge, you're right; I tend to forget about Ennis' "I'm savin for a place, myself," because it seems so unrealistic. But, whether feasible or not, it clearly was his dream.

And Marty, I agree that "supposed to" is pretty much Ennis' cardinal rule. He's supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em; in a larger, more abstract sense -- the responsibility to fulfill expectations and duty -- it's his governing motto (along with standing what you can't fix).

Welcome to BetterMost, both of you! Marty's first post and Marge's fourth or so? You are off to a great start and I look forward to seeing you around.  :)

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: condiments
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2006, 09:10:35 pm »
Thank you, Everyone.  I was swayed a bit in this direction by one, in the other direction by another.  I love that about this place.  I'm intrigued by what Lee wrote about significant things coming in threes in this film.  Do we have a thread on that?  Could someone (Lee?) start one, so I may learn?

Offline dly64

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Re: condiments
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2006, 07:33:00 pm »
I brought this thread back up because, even though I had not responded to it initially, this discussion has stuck in my mind.

I have watched this scene over and over and have found much of the conversation (in this thread) enlightening. The one thing I didn’t really read is the role of Monroe. IMO, Monroe is a key element to this scene. It establishes his infatuation with Alma and it sets him up as a responsible person who comes to Alma’s aid after Ennis drops the kids “in her lap”.

I really like Marty’s theory …

I saw the grocery store scene and the extra shift scene in that light.  In both, he's being slapped in the face by his own failure to meet that standard.  If he was making enough money, his wife wouldn't have to go to work.  If he had succeeded in doing what he was supposed to do, she'd have been at home taking care of the kids.  It's not about whose job is more important, it's about his realization of his own inability to be a good man (according to the unrealistic standard that he perceives to have been set).  His real anger is toward himself, and because that's too uncomfortable for him to acknowledge, it is expressed at Alma, the evidence of all his failings.

This interpretation goes in tandem with the scene where Alma tells Ennis she’d have more kids if he’d support them. Ennis’ “failings” as a provider is only reemphasized when we see Ennis at Thanksgiving. Alma now lives in a house and is pregnant … which shows Ennis that she is willing to have more children because she is now married to a man who can financially support her (and the girls).

I also wonder whether or not Ennis sees his own irresponsibility come out of his relationship with Jack. What I mean by this … in the lake scene, Jack says to Ennis: “You used to come away easy. Now it’s like seeing the pope.” Ennis then replies, “Jack, I gotta work. In them earlier days, I’d just quit the job. You ever hear of child support?” Now Ennis is forced to be responsible. Is this just another slap in Ennis’ face? Another instance of Ennis’ failure? Just a thought.
Diane

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Marge_Innavera

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Re: condiments
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2006, 10:52:45 am »
Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.

Like many viewers, the Ennis/Jack scenes hold my interest more than the others; but one scene I thought was remarkable was the one where Ennis and Alma are still living outside Riverton, he comes home from work and is trying to tend to the two crying babies at once. Didn't notice this in the first few viewings for some reason, but Alma doesn't even ask Ennis to look in on the children; he just goes and does it and looks rather tired and harried but not really unhappy about that. And in the next scene, it's obvious that he's the one who puts the kids to bed at least part of the time.

I remember the early and mid-1960s very clearly, and believe me, that wasn't typical behavior for a young husband. Ennis is very much a man of his era in his view of his own sexuality but the way he's shown in those two scenes is quite remarkable for that time.

There's also his going into the kitchen and offering to  help Alma after Thanksgiving dinner - not typical either, even for the late 1970s.  Just five or so years ago, The Husband and I were dinner guests at Thanksgiving and the husband piled up the plates in front of the wife and me, invited my husband into the next room for TV and said "I'll leave you girls to clean up."  I'm afraid I wasn't, um, too gracious about it.   :P
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 11:03:20 am by Marge_Innavera »

Offline dly64

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Re: condiments
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2006, 01:18:32 pm »
Like many viewers, the Ennis/Jack scenes hold my interest more than the others; but one scene I thought was remarkable was the one where Ennis and Alma are still living outside Riverton, he comes home from work and is trying to tend to the two crying babies at once. Didn't notice this in the first few viewings for some reason, but Alma doesn't even ask Ennis to look in on the children; he just goes and does it and looks rather tired and harried but not really unhappy about that. And in the next scene, it's obvious that he's the one who puts the kids to bed at least part of the time.

I remember the early and mid-1960s very clearly, and believe me, that wasn't typical behavior for a young husband. Ennis is very much a man of his era in his view of his own sexuality but the way he's shown in those two scenes is quite remarkable for that time.

Well stated! I remember the 70's more than the 60's (I was too young in the 60's). But even then, it was the women cleaned up after supper while the guys watched TV. And you are right, Marge ... it hasn't changed an awful lot (although I have to admit that my brothers and brother-in-law do a great job with helping out!)
Diane

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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: condiments
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2006, 11:57:56 am »
I just got another perspective on why Ennis says, "I'll be glad to leave you alone" to Alma when she asks him to use protection. Maybe he was having a hard difficult time getting it up with Alma, or maybe he was afraid he might in the future, and so he decided to do some preventive damage control. I have seen this kind of thing happen...when men have ED, they would never be able to just come out and admit it, so they usually try to say it's the partner's fault, not theirs.  >:( :(
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Offline Lynne

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Re: condiments
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2006, 10:12:01 pm »
I just got another perspective on why Ennis says, "I'll be glad to leave you alone" to Alma when she asks him to use protection. Maybe he was having a hard difficult time getting it up with Alma, or maybe he was afraid he might in the future, and so he decided to do some preventive damage control. I have seen this kind of thing happen...when men have ED, they would never be able to just come out and admit it, so they usually try to say it's the partner's fault, not theirs.  >:( :(

You make sense, Lee.  I see Ennis as a man of few words, but the ones he does say matter:  'I'll be glad to leave you alone." means he is glad to be rid of this unwelcome responsibility, IMO.
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Samrim

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Re: condiments
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2006, 04:44:43 am »
Hello Lynne and frontranger and all

There might be some truth in what you say; personally I just think rightly or wrongly, that Ennis had become bored with intimacy with Alma. He was enduring the time apart from Jack as best he could, and was probably glad of an excuse to leave Alma alone. Their marriage was bound to have been affected by the reunion kiss, and what it meant to Alma. Being second in someone's heart after believing otherwise must have been a bitter pill to swallow. Annie said "A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma, no real trouble ,just widening water....... And under that thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies" . I guess Alma understood more about Ennis's sexuality than he did (or at least admitted). Apparently Ennis had no difficulty with his libido when he was with Jack, Annie again, "One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough" :(  I don't think Annie intended to write a 'tear jerker', but she gets my motor running everytime. I rarely manage a time on these boards without tears it some point.

love our boys to bits

Best Wishes

Sam
Sam

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: condiments
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2006, 05:17:54 pm »
I agree with what you say, Sam, and I think in a way we're saying the same thing; Ennis was bored with Alma and was afraid that he wouldn't be able to "pretend" much longer.

 :(
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: condiments
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2006, 09:13:08 pm »
I think for the one sentence "I'll be glad to leave you alone" no analysis is required.  It means he would be glad to leave her alone.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: condiments
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 10:03:00 am »
The wha' ...?  ;D

Bumping for Throwback Thursday as a reminder of how back in them good old days we used to endessly debate small narrative details.




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Re: condiments
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 12:11:09 pm »
Who is this "latjoreme" anyway?  ;)
"chewing gum and duct tape"