Author Topic: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...  (Read 3658 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« on: January 13, 2009, 02:49:51 pm »

I know there are many threads here comparing and contrasting the film and story in many different ways.  But, I thought it would be interesting to focus specifically on the question of McMurtry and Ossana rearranging elements from Proulx's story... and to examine how the meanings of those elements change and shift as a result.  I recall McMurtry and Ossana saying that they tried to incorporate almost every sentence and every description into the movie in some way (with some notable exceptions of course).  So, I think there are lots of avenues for discussion here.



I'll start by saying that, since the weekend viewings/chats of BBM the question of Ennis's phrase "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it" keeps coming to my mind.  In the film he says this in the middle of the arch of the film and, of course he says it outloud directly to Jack.  This is radically different from the story, where it is the last line... and it is not said to anyone.  It's presented as being more a part of Ennis's thought process.

In the film, because of its placement and it being part of Ennis's overall conversation with Jack about the cow and calf operation, his father, Earl, etc.... it makes it seem like this phrase "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it"... is kind of specifically about his frustrations about not being able to have a full/ fulfilling relationship with Jack, complete with living together.  Essentially, the phrase seems pretty specifically focused on the issue of sexuality and lifestyle.

In the story, the line seems much more sweeping... it seems to be an overall statement about a lifetime of regrets and hard choices.  In the story in includes sexuality and lifestyle frustrations... but it also seems to be largely about the loss of Jack (Ennis really can do nothing to fix the death of Jack... so he must stand it).  There's more room for actual action or change if you think about the phrase only with regard to something like lifestyle.

To me, it seems to be a radical difference infused into the movie simply by rearrangement.  It seems McMurtry and Ossana were very careful to directly insert the line into the film, but it still comes across so differently.

I'd be curious to hear if other folks sense this same kind of change/difference based on rearrangements of story elements in the film.



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2009, 04:18:40 pm »
Very interesting topic Amanda.

I believe that the sentence 'if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it' was placed in the middle of the movie in order to demonstrate the change in the relationship between Jack and Ennis. At the time Ennis says this, I think he genuinly believes that he'll be able to stand it.

And by the final lake scene, Ennis colllapses in Jack's arms and cries out 'I can't stand this anymore Jack'. This always left me wondering, what would happen between Jack and Ennis next, if Jack hadn't died. I believe the movie was more optimistic in that regard than the story.
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Offline mariez

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 05:03:07 pm »
Very interesting topic Amanda.

I believe that the sentence 'if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it' was placed in the middle of the movie in order to demonstrate the change in the relationship between Jack and Ennis. At the time Ennis says this, I think he genuinly believes that he'll be able to stand it.

And by the final lake scene, Ennis colllapses in Jack's arms and cries out 'I can't stand this anymore Jack'.
This always left me wondering, what would happen between Jack and Ennis next, if Jack hadn't died. I believe the movie was more optimistic in that regard than the story.

Yes, I think that's exactly right, Fabienne.  And it was also a way for the audience to "hear" this sort of creed that Ennis has been taught to live by as a way of understanding his character better. 

I've always been interested in the "this happen a other people?" conversation, which takes place at the motel in the ss, but is moved and expanded upon in the film to take place on a post-divorce fishing trip.  Jack gives a kind of flippant answer in the ss, but in the movie it leads to a wrenching scene that demonstrates, among other things, how inept they are at communicating with each other.   :(

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline August7th

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 11:14:25 am »
I'll start by saying that, since the weekend viewings/chats of BBM the question of Ennis's phrase "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it" keeps coming to my mind.  In the film he says this in the middle of the arch of the film and, of course he says it outloud directly to Jack.  This is radically different from the story, where it is the last line... and it is not said to anyone.  It's presented as being more a part of Ennis's thought process.

Actually, in the short story Ennis DOES say this to Jack during their discussion at the motel. After Jack suggests they start a ranch together, Ennis tells the story about seeing Earl's dead body as a child, and says they can only get together once in a while in the mountains. Jack asks if that means "ever four fuckin years," and Ennis replies:

"No . . . I goddamn hate it that you're goin a drive away in the mornin and I'm goin back to work. But if you can't fix it you got a stand it."

So Osana and McMurtry were true to the placement of this dialogue in the movie, although they have it take place in the mountains after Ennis and Jack leave the motel instead of in the motel room itself.

This is indeed Ennis' "creed," as mariez points out. And the tragedy is that he could never conceive of any other way to "fix" his relationship with Jack.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 04:50:57 pm »
Actually, in the short story Ennis DOES say this to Jack during their discussion at the motel. After Jack suggests they start a ranch together, Ennis tells the story about seeing Earl's dead body as a child, and says they can only get together once in a while in the mountains. Jack asks if that means "ever four fuckin years," and Ennis replies:

"No . . . I goddamn hate it that you're goin a drive away in the mornin and I'm goin back to work. But if you can't fix it you got a stand it."

So Osana and McMurtry were true to the placement of this dialogue in the movie, although they have it take place in the mountains after Ennis and Jack leave the motel instead of in the motel room itself.

This is indeed Ennis' "creed," as mariez points out. And the tragedy is that he could never conceive of any other way to "fix" his relationship with Jack.

Thanks for pointing this out!  I'd completely forgotten that this line comes up twice in the short story.  For me it stands out in my memory so much more strongly where it stands at the end of the short story.

LOL, but, thanks again for the correction.  I haven't re-read the story for a while and was writing the inital post here from memory.

I still think the contrast of what that creed or motto means in the middle vs. the end is worth thinking about.  It takes on such a wider meaning at the end of the story, at least to me.  Whereas placed in the middle and in the context of an explicit conversation about a somewhat particular topic, it seems to have a different meaning.

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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 03:32:07 am »
I think this creed was said again by Ennis when he stated to Junior that 'if you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing' (I'm quoting off the top of my head).

It resembles the 'not being able to fix it', although I think Ennis said it with a lot less conviction than when he said that to Jack. I think by this time Ennis realised that he needed a lot of things (except funiture..) but that this 'creed', stating that he didn't need nothing, was a way to cope, a facade to hide behind.
The facade started to crack when Junior told him she wanted/needed him at her wedding.
'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2009, 06:38:09 am »
I think this creed was said again by Ennis when he stated to Junior that 'if you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing' (I'm quoting off the top of my head).

It resembles the 'not being able to fix it', although I think Ennis said it with a lot less conviction than when he said that to Jack. I think by this time Ennis realised that he needed a lot of things (except funiture..) but that this 'creed', stating that he didn't need nothing, was a way to cope, a facade to hide behind.
The facade started to crack when Junior told him she wanted/needed him at her wedding.


Great thoughts Fabienne! :)

I think the way Junior's comment about the furniture is phrased backs this: "Daddy, you need more furniture." (also from memory)

Think about it, this sentence doesn't make sense at all if taken literally. Ennis sure doesn't need more furniture. The trailer is crammed. Where the heck should he put more furniture?
What she means is he needs better furniture, standing for better care, a better life.
But of course it's too late, it can't be fixed, he has to stand it.

And I think Fabienne is completely right that Ennis's sentence is a facade to hide behind. I think it's a reflection/transformation of Annie Proulx's words "brought up to hard work and privation." (which brings us back to the thread title, yay ;))

I picture Ennis's parents speaking those words to their children.
I've heard similar down-dragging phrases as a kid "Close your eyes, then you see what's yours" (= nothing. Nothing is yours, you're not entitled to anything).


Crammed trailer:



Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2009, 01:42:46 pm »

Thanks for these really interesting thoughts and insights Chrissi and Fabienne! :)

Junior's observation "you need more furniture"... now, in the course of this discussion, all of a sudden strikes me as an echo of her earlier statement as a young child, "I need crayons."  Maybe it really is true that these two "I need/ you need" statements really are existential.  Both statements really might be about the general idea of taking care of ones self and acknowledging certain personal/ individual needs as important to a general idea of happiness.  Neither crayons nor better/nicer/more furniture were absolutely necessary on a practical level, but they would have been nice and contributed to a kind of happiness beyond the absolute practical. 

I agree that the observation that Ennis's trailer isn't very well appointed (he has furniture, but it's not very nice, etc.) is meant to be a reminder of the idea that he and Jack were both raised to have low expectations when it came to their personal happiness and comfort (the idea of hard work and privation, etc.).

I've heard similar down-dragging phrases as a kid "Close your eyes, then you see what's yours" (= nothing. Nothing is yours, you're not entitled to anything).

:(  I'm sorry to hear this Chrissi... as Jack would say... "that's hard."  {{Chrissi}}




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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 07:21:47 pm »
...Ennis's phrase "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it" keeps coming to my mind.  In the film he says this in the middle of the arch of the film and, of course he says it outloud directly to Jack.  This is radically different from the story, where it is the last line... and it is not said to anyone.  It's presented as being more a part of Ennis's thought process.

In the film, because of its placement and it being part of Ennis's overall conversation with Jack about the cow and calf operation, his father, Earl, etc.... it makes it seem like this phrase "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it"... is kind of specifically about his frustrations about not being able to have a full/ fulfilling relationship with Jack, complete with living together.  Essentially, the phrase seems pretty specifically focused on the issue of sexuality and lifestyle.


Going back to the last line of the story, can't fix/got to stand, the way it was used by Ennis in the movie, it seemed to me like he was laying down the law to Jack. He had already decided he wasn't going to walk away from his life with Alma and the girls, and he was trying to get Jack to stop pestering him to do so. Jack must have been privately devastated but he decided to follow the rules or else risk another four-year blowoff by Ennis.

An anecdote about the story: just as it was being readied for publication, AP made a phone call to the editor to make sure that the last sentence of the story would be the line about fixing and standing. Apparently that line had either gotten cut off, or things had been moved around. (Also the prologue was left off, which AP said was purely a typographic mistake, something I find a little hard to believe.) We know she made other little edits in the story too before it was first published. These items make the line even more significant. I'm not sure what Ennis/AP meant by "stand it" but that phrase definitely makes me think of Wyoming, Devil's Tower, fenceposts in winter, and horses lined up with their tails turned into the wind to withstand Mother Nature's fury.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Re-Organization in the film and meaning changes...
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 07:31:12 pm »
A similar theme is discussed in a different way in this thread:

Ang Lee and the POM Synergy
"chewing gum and duct tape"