Author Topic: "It ain't right."  (Read 26756 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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"It ain't right."
« on: July 08, 2006, 07:52:34 pm »
Hey there Friends,

I'm starting this thread as the flip-side of the "lovable details" thread.  Now we all know we love, love, love this film.  But, I'm sure for all of us there are little things that we find ever-so-slightly annoying, funny, off, etc. in the film (and the story for that matter).  I thought it might be fun to have a thread that pokes some gentle and loving fun at our BBM.  I think continuity errors could fit in here too.

To start, I think the best and most famous example of something that doesn't ring quite right (mentioned sometimes on BetterMost and on TOB) is the portrayal of Bobby Twist... and his goofy, almost New York accent.
 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 01:05:23 am by atz75 »
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Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2006, 11:23:02 pm »
I wondered since my first viewing why, since Jack drove straight in toward the building beside Aguirre's trailer to park his truck, the truck was facing out when Ennis was helping him get it started after they got down from Brokeback.

Offline Amber

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2006, 12:27:05 am »
There are two that I always notice.

One - is the scene where Aguirre comes down to camp.  When he's coming down Jack has a log on the chopping block and after Aguirre leaves the log has disappeared.

Two - In the "Mexico" scene ... the same boy in a stripped shirt runs behind Jack twice.

They don't really bother me though - at least they don't ruin any storylines! ;)

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2006, 12:35:18 am »
I wondered since my first viewing why, since Jack drove straight in toward the building beside Aguirre's trailer to park his truck, the truck was facing out when Ennis was helping him get it started after they got down from Brokeback.

Oh wow!  Good catch!  I've never thought of that before, but you're right.  His truck definitely seems to be pointing the wrong way.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2006, 12:51:51 am »
Here's the one that has bugged me the most lately, because it has such impact on the story itself. I've posted it elsewhere, but ...

If the charity dance at which Jack met Randall happened in 1978, according to the banner over the stage, and presumably Jack and Randall started seeing each other not too long after that, and if Ennis met Cassie sometime just before that, then ...

... by the time Jack and Ennis each discussed their relationships with the "good looking little gal in Riverton" and the "ranch foreman's wife," those relationships had been going on something like FOUR F'IN YEARS. (The screenplay in "Story to Screen" says three, but that's unmistakably flawed, based on the chronology of events following that lakeside scene.)

Anyway, it's illogical that they would have gone four years (or even three) without mentioning these other involvements -- AND YET, when the subject happens to come up in conversation, they nonchalantly spill as if it's no big deal. If they were keeping these involvements secret for years, fine. Or if they had only been going on a short while and so they don't mind casually discussing them, fine. But not both!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2006, 01:11:29 am »
Yeah, either 3 or 4 years seems awfully long for the Randall/ Cassie relationships to seem as casual as the film seems to imply.  It helps explain a little bit why Cassie was so hopeful and heartbroken.  It occurs to me that it would have been fun to see a little more of Randall... just to get more of a sense of what he was like (especially if he turns out to have been important enough to Jack to warrant an invitation to live at Lightning Flat).
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2006, 01:42:09 am »
  It occurs to me that it would have been fun to see a little more of Randall... just to get more of a sense of what he was like (especially if he turns out to have been important enough to Jack to warrant an invitation to live at Lightning Flat).

My take on this is that the banner is wrong.

I just can't buy either relationship having gone on four f'in years without more progress, or frustration on the part of Randall/Cassie, or allusion by Jack or casual mention by Ennis (there's less at stake in his thing with Cassie). Of course, Alma Jr. does seem to age a little between the date and her appearance at the trailer ... But my conclusion is that it's more like a couple of years, at the most.

In any case, I just can't see this conversation:

Jack: All this time, and you ain't found nobody to marry.

Ennis: Well, I've been puttin the blocks to a good-lookin little gal in Riverton for the past four f'in years ...

OT for this thread, more suited for the Brokieisms thread, but will I ever be able to just say "four years" again without putting f'in in the middle of it?

Offline Bucky

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2006, 05:40:20 am »
In the case of Ennis and Cassie I don't think it could have been four or five years.  The Del Mar divorce was granted the 6th day of November,  1975.  Ennis met Cassie after a reunion scene with Jack at the greyhound bus diner.  I know the song Cassie played and she and Ennis danced to was the "Devil's right hand."  That song wasn't released until 1988 but it didn't really affect the story in my opinion.  One thing that I did laugh at though were the wild looking clogs Cassie had on when she danced with Ennis.  I can remember when girls used to wear them.  No wonder Cassie's feet were killing her.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2006, 06:09:51 am »
What bugs me, is another timeline matter, even though it's much more explainable and less conspicuous than those Cassie/Randall silent years.

It's the whole "Troy and Kurt" exchange between Ennis and Junior.

Daddy, that was 2 years ago?  ???

Yes, I get that they're aiming to imply that Ennis, who was shown to previously stay in close contact with his daughter(s), was so devastated by Jack's death that he dropped off the surface of his family's earth for much more than a year. If not physically, then at least mentally.

For one, I find that somewhat hard to believe, the way Ennis's relationship with Junior has been depicted up till then.

But if I accept that they've not communicated in a long time, then I would have expected more surprise, more hints of "this is a big deal" when Junior eventually appears. If not on his part, then on hers. At the very least, I wouldn't have expected her to be exasperated, as if it's weird that he still talks about Troy - why would she be, if she was still dating Troy last time she had contact with her father? That scene outside Ennis's trailer just doesn't *look* or come across to me as the meeting of people who despite their love for each other haven't seen or heard from each other in such a long time. And therefore, to me, the whole "Troy" discussion ain't quite right.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 06:23:14 am by Mikaela »

Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 06:54:15 am »
Mikaela, IMHU, I took Ennis' not realizing that Junior wasn't dating Troy anymore to be more of a result of Ennis just forgetting it when she mentioned it, not any big issue with time passing and them not communicating at all. Who she was dating was probably not an issue for Ennis, especially since she didn't live with him and he didn't have much, if any, control over it anyway. Not as though he saw this boy picking his daughter up for dates, had input into whether Troy was suitable for his daughter, etc. It just wasn't that big a deal to Ennis.

The line actually got a little smile out of me, thinking that here's something she probably mentioned to him when they visited that would have been really important to her, but he couldn't even keep her boyfriends straight! Not untypical at all, I don't think.

(P.S. Love your name! My son would have been Michaela if he had been a girl.)

Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 07:05:08 am »
those relationships had been going on something like FOUR F'IN YEARS.

I haven't ever gotten involved in figuring out all these timelines so I have no basis for my statement, but now that it has been pointed out that there is a discrepancy it could be more of a statement about how little each of them valued these other relationships rather than the fact that they have been keeping secrets from each other. Four years, or even two, would explain, though, why Cassie was so upset at Ennis, because we never saw much reason for her to be that involved emotionally.


Offline opinionista

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 07:54:29 am »
One detail that grabbed my attention are Alma, Jr's. eye color. At the scene where she asks Alma for crayons, when the peanut jars fall onto the floor and break, her eyes are blue (she's two or three years old).  But when she's older, they're brown.

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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 09:12:53 am »
It's the whole "Troy and Kurt" exchange between Ennis and Junior.

Daddy, that was 2 years ago?  ???

Yes, I get that they're aiming to imply that Ennis, who was shown to previously stay in close contact with his daughter(s), was so devastated by Jack's death that he dropped off the surface of his family's earth for much more than a year. If not physically, then at least mentally.

For one, I find that somewhat hard to believe, the way Ennis's relationship with Junior has been depicted up till then.

But if I accept that they've not communicated in a long time, then I would have expected more surprise, more hints of "this is a big deal" when Junior eventually appears. If not on his part, then on hers. At the very least, I wouldn't have expected her to be exasperated, as if it's weird that he still talks about Troy - why would she be, if she was still dating Troy last time she had contact with her father? That scene outside Ennis's trailer just doesn't *look* or come across to me as the meeting of people who despite their love for each other haven't seen or heard from each other in such a long time. And therefore, to me, the whole "Troy" discussion ain't quite right.

I don't think Ennis and Junior hadn't seen each other for a long time before her visit. I think tamarack's explantaion is very good.
For me, it is a typical "parent-thing". Parents do this all the time: listening only halfways to what their teenage or adult children tell them.
Many parents of my friends are like that, my parents-in-law are like that, too.

"Kurt, Troy, Michael or what the f' is this guy's name? Was he the guy who played baseball?" -
"No, daddy, it was the other guy, and it was not  baseball, but basketball"

I heard hundreds of dialogues like this.


Offline Mikaela

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 09:32:58 am »
Tamarack, Penth - your replies intriegue me. Interesting! I'd like to hear others' opinions as well.

Myself, I can't manage to think that at this point, at the denouement of the film, after the emotional sucker-punches the previous scenes subjected us to - that so much dialogue would be used simply to show us that Ennis hasn't really been paying proper attention to Junior's boyfriends. The whole Troy - Kurt exchange seems to me to be trying to convey something more deeply significant than that, especially in view of Ennis's recent loss of Jack...... If it's not saying that Ennis and Junior haven't met for all that time, at the very least it seems to say that Ennis has been so emotionally submerged in Jack's death  - hasn't been paying attention at all to what's been going on with Junior and what she's been telling him ever since Jack died or maybe before. But then I would have expected a *much* less bemused reaction from Junior.

So to me, it remains"not right" - not even as a lead-in to Ennis's later "love" question about Kurt once they're in the trailer. Upon learning that Junior is getting married, he could have asked that question with equal significance, IMO, even if he'd been aware that Junior was dating a guy named Kurt and had been doing so for some time.

Not that it's a big deal. I feel really bad, pointing out any little thing as "not right" - I love this film so much. 


Offline Meryl

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 12:45:19 pm »
These are all interesting examples, and I've tended to gloss over these points, too, preferring to focus on the characters, like most people.  But...

One that has always made me scratch my head is the timeline of getting camp broken down and moving the sheep down the mountain after Aguirre's second visit.  In the screenplay, much of the action seems meant to take place on different days, but as it plays in the movie, it seems to be on the same day.

We see Ennis wake up in the pup tent in the morning.  At what seems to be mid-morning of the same day, he arrives at camp, and instead of getting breakfast, he sees Jack taking down the tent.  (In the short story, this takes place the week after the big snow.)  Then, at what seems to be mid-afternoon of the same day, we have the lassoing/tussle scene, followed by a shot of them taking the sheep down the mountain.

Logically, Aguirre would not have gotten to Jack that early in the day to give him the news, and even if he did, Jack would logically wait for Ennis to show up and have breakfast before packing up. (Even if he struck the tent before breakfast, by the time they got completely packed and rode up to the sheep, it would be very late in the day to start taking them down.)  If, instead, Ennis is arriving for supper, Jack wouldn't be taking down the tent, since it would be too late in the day to get all packed up and go back to the sheep to get them going.  They would need to wait til morning.  Now, there's no reason to assume the filmmakers ever intended this to be the same day, but that's what it looks like.

In fact, the screenplay puts the two scenes (Jack telling Ennis the news and the lassoing/tussle scene) on separate days, which makes more sense.  The first scene is "Day" and the second is "Morning."   By combining Jack's taking down the tent with giving Ennis the news, it seems to me Ang cheated us out of a final Tent Scene.  >:(

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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 12:51:54 pm »
Yes, you're right Meryl. I've often wished that the camera would have come in out of the hail for a TS3 instead of that meager TS3 we get many years later.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 01:10:42 pm »
Well, you asked for it, and this may be something others won't dare to say, so I'll try to say this as skillfully as I can with some humor too.  I never bought the first night in the tent or the same scene described in the book.  I find it very hard (no pun intended) to believe that Ennis was able with only the "aid of some clear slick and spit" to enter Jack for the very first time, not gently, not slowly, but on "full throttle" as he does in the book and movie.  Besides, "clear slick" doesn't happen until a guy's been up and excited for more than 30 seconds like in the movie, come on.  It's not physically possible for most.

It was all too quick and easy in the movie, so much so that some of my friends said it looked more like a rape scene than anything close to interaction that 'd be pleasurable for both men. I think so too.  If you know what I'm talking about, you know it's not done the first time on "full throttle" with any human being and I just don't see Ennis as "under-endowed" either.   Even an "average guy" could do some serious harm to his partner if his desires were drive home in fourth gear.  I don't know about others, but that didn't seem real at all. Now the second night, was more real and believable, the two of them looking at each other, Jack encouraging Ennis, the agreement was there. It was a love scene, no doubt.  That I could buy, but not the first.  I see that as a flaw in the book and movie.

And hey, the truck facing the wrong way, tamarack, you're so right about that, never thought of that... that's a good one!

Rayn
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 01:13:50 pm by Rayn »

Offline Meryl

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 01:33:28 pm »
Yes, you're right Meryl. I've often wished that the camera would have come in out of the hail for a TS3 instead of that meager TS3 we get many years later.

A-men and Yeehaw to that!  ;)

Quote
By Rayn
I never bought the first night in the tent or the same scene described in the book.  I find it very hard (no pun intended) to believe that Ennis was able with only the "aid of some clear slick and spit" to enter Jack for the very first time, not gently, not slowly, but on "full throttle" as he does in the book and movie.

I have to agree with you there, Rayn.  It's something I've put down to "dramatic license" ever since my first viewing.  :P
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 01:41:06 pm by meryl »
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 02:37:21 pm »
Quote
I've often wished that the camera would have come in out of the hail for a TS3 instead of that meager TS3 we get many years later.
Now this is the only "Big thing" that I think ain't right; not right at all, and I've thought so from the first: I'm sad that there is no scene during the "later years" showing that the affection and the "brilliant charge" between Jack and Ennis was as strong as ever. The TS3 is simply too meek for that, especially coming as it does on the heels of Ennis's failure to respond to Jack's "Sometimes I miss you so bad", which IMO would call for a non-ambiguous physical response. Some proper hugging, a good strong kiss *should* have been included.


Quote
I have to agree with you there, Rayn.  It's something I've put down to "dramatic license" ever since my first viewing.

Yes, I would suppose that (unfortunately for us) the choice wasn't between the TS1 we got and a realistic TS1, but rather between what we got and any scene at all. After all, the earlier script versions had the camera tracking out of the tent earlier so that all the audience would have been left with, was the night and the moon and some groans from the tent.


Quote
...the truck facing the wrong way..

There is nearly a whole day between the time we see Jack parking the car, and the next morning when they are trucked up to the jump-off point. So Jack could possibly have moved the car later that day. Perhaps Ennis helped him try to fix it. Or perhaps he took Ennis for a trip to see the sights of Signal.  :D
 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 02:39:48 pm by Mikaela »

Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2006, 02:53:35 pm »
Here's one that I realized recently.  The scene when Alma Jr. ran to the living room saying "bring a fish, dad, a big big one..." and Ennis picked her up and handed her to Alma.  You see a microphone wire on Alma Jr's belly right after Ennis kiss his wife and left, and Alma started to cry.

And that thing about the truck facing the wrong way, it's also in the wrong location.  The truck was not even on the lot where Aguirre's office was.  It was on a driveway/lot to the right of an old stucco building.  That was the same driveway/lot that Jack drove out off the very next summer when he came looking for that job again. 

Offline Amber

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2006, 03:30:20 pm »
And that thing about the truck facing the wrong way, it's also in the wrong location.  The truck was not even on the lot where Aguirre's office was.  It was on a driveway/lot to the right of an old stucco building.  That was the same driveway/lot that Jack drove out off the very next summer when he came looking for that job again.

That is what really gets me!!  It's an entirely different parking lot all together and not the butchers shop building where he originally pulls in to.  *shrugs* Guess we aren't supposed to know how he ended up there  :)
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Offline welliwont

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2006, 04:22:18 pm »

There is nearly a whole day between the time we see Jack parking the car, and the next morning when they are trucked up to the jump-off point. So Jack could possibly have moved the car later that day. Perhaps Ennis helped him try to fix it. Or perhaps he took Ennis for a trip to see the sights of Signal.  :D
 

I am with Mikaela on this one.  Obviously Jack drove his truck between the time he first parked it the morning of the meeting with Aguirre, and the next morning when they were trucked up to the jump-off spot.  Hell he mighta parked it facin out just in case it wouldn't start two or three months down the road and he needed a boost or a tow.  That Twist he's a real thinker, y'know!

Now here is one that I have been waiting for someone to bring up for three months now, and I have never seen it mentioned yet....  Jack summons Ennis to the tent, and Ennis crawls in to the tent and crashes right away.  We never see him tie the little ties on the tent flap, but shortly after when he and Jack get frisky, the tent ties are neatly tied!!  :o   Hmmmmm!  how unusual!  ??? how insignificant!!!  hahahaha.  I guess taken in context with what is happenin in the scene, this has hardly been worth mentioning, up until now, that is!   ;D ;D

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Offline nakymaton

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2006, 07:03:34 pm »
Ennis's little snow dance bugs me. It looks goofy (and it's the only time in the entire movie that Ennis looks goofy), and it doesn't seem to fit with Ennis's stoic character. Jack, now, I could see doing a goofy snow dance... at least, if Ennis was nearby and Jack thought he could tease out that smile of Ennis's. But Ennis? No way.
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Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2006, 07:41:59 pm »
Ennis' little snow dance...

OK, I'll never look at that scene the same way again!  :) Being from the land of ice and snow I guess I just accepted it as him waking up freezing and just moving around to warm up a little, but I like "snow dance" better.  :D

Hey, Jake - Why would Jack obviously have moved the truck? They were pretty busy drinking, and since both of them had just ridden/driven quite a ways (Ennis , anyway - looks like he started off in the night to get where he was going) I'm not sure they would have gone driving around town. Clearly somebody moved it, if it isn't even in the same parking lot (which I hadn't noticed), but why do you think it was obvious that they did? Just curious.  ;)

Offline welliwont

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2006, 08:17:56 pm »
Hi tamarack,

The reason I said obviously they moved it, is because it was moved.  It was moved, right? ;D

J
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Offline Rayn

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2006, 08:58:01 pm »
A-men and Yeehaw to that!  ;)

I have to agree with you there, Rayn.  It's something I've put down to "dramatic license" ever since my first viewing.  :P



Yes, you're right Meryl.  "Drama requires a willing suspension of disbelief."


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Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2006, 09:03:09 pm »
Hi tamarack,

The reason I said obviously they moved it, is because it was moved.  It was moved, right? ;D

J

Fair enough - I was emphasizing "they" in my mind and you were emphasizing "moved". Yep, it definitely moved!  ;)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2006, 09:34:51 pm »
I'm from the land of snow & ice too (same part, actually, tamarack :) well, originally; I've moved around a lot since I was little). But though I've seen people stomping their feet, I've never seen anyone quite so energetic about it. Especially after just waking up, really cold, in a tent! I know Ennis can move fast, but I know I would have moaned, closed my eyes and hoped I was having a bad dream, then slowly dragged myself out of the tent, cursing and groaning the whole time. ;D

Hey, Jake - Why would Jack obviously have moved the truck? They were pretty busy drinking, and since both of them had just ridden/driven quite a ways (Ennis , anyway - looks like he started off in the night to get where he was going) I'm not sure they would have gone driving around town. Clearly somebody moved it, if it isn't even in the same parking lot (which I hadn't noticed), but why do you think it was obvious that they did? Just curious.  ;)

In the story, they had to be trucked up to the trailhead; I just figured that Jack drove his truck to someplace where Aguirre said he could park it for the summer.

There's a screenplay draft in which Jack and Ennis sleep in Jack's truck the night before they head out with the sheep. (Except that apparently Ang Lee had to sit in for Jack, because Jake had other commitments for a short time in the middle of shooting. And Heath and Ang couldn't play the scene without laughing. Or something like that.) I'm glad that wasn't in the movie, and we don't see them sleeping close to one another before the first tent scene.
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Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2006, 09:56:46 pm »
If we're going to make fun of the way Ennis moves, then how about the little shuffle that he did at the apartment when he was waiting for Jack to show up after 4 years? He was heading for the kitchen and it was something weird between a walk and a  ??? -I don't know what to call it! Almost like he was falling forward and trying to walk fast enough to catch himself.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2006, 10:41:24 pm »
Two more examples of Ennis' goofy movements as semi-comic relief: when he stumbles into the tent before TS1 and knocks over a pot (which we now know has symbolic meaning). And when he's washing dishes in the river during the "you're a real thinker" scene and he loses hold of a pot and it starts to float down the river (again, symbolic meaning).

Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2006, 11:01:26 pm »
Oh, that's right. Tripping over stuff on the way to the tent. That was cute.

Offline whiteoutofthemoon

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2006, 03:42:19 am »
Regarding Jack's truck facing the wrong way when they parted at the end of the summer:

I don't think that was an edit error, just a loss in continuity because of a deleted scene.  My understanding is that they did not leave for Brokeback the same day the met Aguirre...they spent the night in the truck, and then drove up to the trailhead and parked there.   Then they came back down in the truck, and Jack must have parked it in rear first.  You see that scene in the original movie trailer....  Ennis is sitting in the passenger seat.   One has to wonder though why Jack would park his truck rear first regardless....seems to me that he was just dropping Ennis off, why did he even have to turn off the ignition?  Oh well, we'd go nuts ironing out the details.

Regarding Alma Jr and Ennis confusing Troy and Kurt:     This is also not an error to me, but actually yet another very poignant touch.   Remember in the divorce hearing that Ennis only has to pay child support until the girls are 18...I would presume also when Alma Jr got 18 then mandatory courtordered visits would stop also.    Therefore, Ennis probably hasn't seen her in a while.....note how he asks  "what's the occasion?".    So Ennis, desperately trying to stay close to his daughters as they grew up, gradually loses touch with them, and it comes to a point where he presumes that Alma Jr wouldn't visit him just for the heck of it, but there has to be a reason. 
"They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.  Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the whiteoutofthemoon."

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2006, 07:09:50 am »
The disappearing log drives me CRAZY!!!!

 >:(

Offline Mikaela

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2006, 08:17:01 am »
Focusing real hard on Jack (and Jack's looks) in the disappearing log scene makes the log much less annoying. I'm only sayin'.  ;)

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2006, 08:43:05 am »
Focusing real hard on Jack (and Jack's looks) in the disappearing log scene makes the log much less annoying. I'm only sayin'.  ;)

 ;D I've tried that, yes, Jake does a good job in hiding this goof with his good looks!
But sometimes...  ::)

mvansand76

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2006, 08:44:53 am »
Also I am ever the perfectionist, this would have made me feel ill for days if I was Ang Lee, does that make sense?

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2006, 12:04:28 pm »
Also:

After the fight, when Jack is comforting Ennis, his arm changes position, bad editing.

Last confrontation: you don't really see Ennis speak his last words "I can't stand this anymore Jack", like it was added later on. That notion adds importance to that sentence, though.

And in general I thought the mid portion of the movie was too slow and it did not show enough of Jack and Ennis together. I know, that was the whole idea behind it, that they wanted to be together as much as we wanted to see them together, but still... I really miss that scene from the book, where they sit so close together by the campfire, that's my favorite part of the book, it told the reader that they were still very much in love and it was just... right. It felt right. I didn't get that feeling in the movie.


Offline stevenedel

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2006, 12:54:36 pm »


And in general I thought the mid portion of the movie was too slow and it did not show enough of Jack and Ennis together. I know, that was the whole idea behind it, that they wanted to be together as much as we wanted to see them together, but still... I really miss that scene from the book, where they sit so close together by the campfire, that's my favorite part of the book, it told the reader that they were still very much in love and it was just... right. It felt right. I didn't get that feeling in the movie.



That is so true! Whenever I see Jack and Ennis sitting at the campfire, way apart, like any two ordinary straight campers, I get this Brideshead Revisited flashback of Sebastian resting his head in Charles's lap. Now wouldn't something like that have been great... ::) (and rather more likely, too).

Also, after the Thanksgiving row with Alma when Ennis gets himself beaten up and then we fade out, when we fade in again we see him and Jack on horseback in the mountains. I always feel it would have been really great if the fade in would have been one of Ennis on his back in Jack's arms - or is that too obvious and deliberate a contrast with the previous scene...?

My, look at us... we're rewriting the perfect movie.  :-X
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Offline welliwont

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2006, 04:16:25 pm »

My, look at us... we're rewriting the perfect movie.  :-X

I couldn't agree more.... 

Now, look you people, ya gotta stop this....  there was another thread like this a whal ago, and you don't wanna know what happened to the posters on that thread!!  Always bitchin' and moanin', findin' fault with our perfect story, it was scandalous!!!

 ;) ;) ;D ;D
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Offline tamarack

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2006, 09:46:42 pm »
OK - One more? The rodeo where Jack meets Lureen. He's getting ready to ride and she squeezes in by the fence to watch him. The announcer says that Jack's ride was the ride of the day, and that may be so, but it wasn't a legal ride. He wasn't on the bull when the 8 second buzzer went off, so he would have been disqualified.

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2006, 11:09:00 am »
That is so true! Whenever I see Jack and Ennis sitting at the campfire, way apart, like any two ordinary straight campers, I get this Brideshead Revisited flashback of Sebastian resting his head in Charles's lap. Now wouldn't something like that have been great... ::) (and rather more likely, too).

Also, after the Thanksgiving row with Alma when Ennis gets himself beaten up and then we fade out, when we fade in again we see him and Jack on horseback in the mountains. I always feel it would have been really great if the fade in would have been one of Ennis on his back in Jack's arms - or is that too obvious and deliberate a contrast with the previous scene...?

My, look at us... we're rewriting the perfect movie.  :-X

Is there such a thing as the perfect movie? BBM comes really close, but from the start I have regarded it slightly flawed in two ways:

* One being the mid portion of the movie (too slow)
* the other being the intimacy in the latter part of the movie (one reviewer described the chemistry as sizzling in the Brokeback part of the movie but in the latter part of the movie it was hard for him to imagine that they had ever had sex at all).

That doesn't take away anything from the HUGE impact it has had and still has on me, though. I love this movie more than any other movie I have ever seen.  :-*

moremojo

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2006, 11:31:48 am »
Here's one I notice:

The area of the front door in Ennis's trailer seems reversed, in the closing shots, from where we saw it in the opening shots of that last sequence. When Alma Junior arrives and walks towards the trailer with her father, the door is at their right. After Alma Junior has left, and Ennis hangs up his hat, then notices her forgotten sweater and opens the door to see her long gone, the door would seem to be on the left relative to what we had seen earlier (I hope I'm making sense!). I assume that the footage somewhere was laterally reversed, probably due to editorial oversight. But this confused me for a time when trying to make mental sense of the spatial configuration of the trailer (a not unimportant element considering the significance of this closing sequence).

Scott

Offline welliwont

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2006, 11:52:02 am »
Here's one I notice:

The area of the front door in Ennis's trailer seems reversed, in the closing shots, from where we saw it in the opening shots of that last sequence. When Alma Junior arrives and walks towards the trailer with her father, the door is at their right. After Alma Junior has left, and Ennis hangs up his hat, then notices her forgotten sweater and opens the door to see her long gone, the door would seem to be on the left relative to what we had seen earlier (I hope I'm making sense!). I assume that the footage somewhere was laterally reversed, probably due to editorial oversight. But this confused me for a time when trying to make mental sense of the spatial configuration of the trailer (a not unimportant element considering the significance of this closing sequence).

Scott

Hi Scott,

I'll make this brief since I am at work, but I think that Ennis' trailer was a two-door trailer....   :D

J
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2006, 09:00:00 pm »
On a light note... I don't like the hat that Ennis starts wearing as he gets older... The one that he's wearing when he meets Jack in the blue parka (when Jack's cooking the corn).  I think the hat is supposed to make Ennis look older.  Well, that definitely works.  But, I still just don't like that hat.
 :-\

On a more substantial note... I agree, that we spend way, way, way too much time in the middle of the movie learning all about characters like Alma, Lureen, Newsome, Cassie, Randall and even silly Monroe and nowhere near enough time learning about the way Jack and Ennis's relationship is actually developing.  I find the other characters interesting, compelling and sometimes sympathetic... but on another level I'd much rather have the attention placed squarely on Jack and Ennis (as happens in the story).  I mean the first 4 years of Ennis's marriage go by in less than a full page in the story.  I could live with something equivalent in the movie.  I'd like to hear more of their casual conversation between Jack and Ennis (not just arguments) instead of the rapid cuts away from their camping trips... or the silent images of them riding their horses, etc.  I know that there's a point to this (that we're supposed to feel the passing of time, the frustration of "never enough time", etc.).  But, it really bothers me sometimes.
 >:(
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2006, 09:07:32 pm »
Let's get specific, in fact. Of course we all (or many of us, anyway) would like to see more out-and-out love scenes. So don't take this as a rejection of those, not at all. Bring them on.

But what I think is most acutely absent from the movie are scenes of lesser casual physical intimacy. They're either intense -- TS1 and 2, reunion -- or they're just talking BUT NOT TOUCHING. Once they become lovers, the only other time they touch that I can think of is when Jack strokes Ennis' cheek after the Earl story. But I could use a lot more of that, especially under happier conditions.

Personally, on this issue I think Ang went way overboard with his restraint. Or would that be, Ang went way underboard?

Offline Meryl

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2006, 09:33:15 pm »
But what I think is most acutely absent from the movie are scenes of lesser casual physical intimacy. They're either intense -- TS1 and 2, reunion -- or they're just talking BUT NOT TOUCHING. Once they become lovers, the only other time they touch that I can think of is when Jack strokes Ennis' cheek after the Earl story. But I could use a lot more of that, especially under happier conditions.

Personally, on this issue I think Ang went way overboard with his restraint. Or would that be, Ang went way underboard?

I assume you're counting the motel scene in with the reunion?  Then there's that poignant little moment in the post-divorce scene when Jack starts to caress Ennis as if to pull him in for a hello kiss and Ennis removes his hands and leads him over to meet the girls.  That always makes me hurt.  :(

Yeah, if Ang has one fault, it's restraint.  ;)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2006, 12:52:39 am »
I assume you're counting the motel scene in with the reunion?  Then there's that poignant little moment in the post-divorce scene when Jack starts to caress Ennis as if to pull him in for a hello kiss and Ennis removes his hands and leads him over to meet the girls.  That always makes me hurt.  :(

Well, and then later I thought of TS3 and the dozy embrace. I don't know how I forgot about all of these. OK, never mind, I guess I was wrong. Turns out there was enough after all.

KIDDING!!!! Never enough physical affection, never enough.  :-\

Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2006, 10:47:27 am »
Then there's that flash back scene during their final fight when Ennis came up from behind and cuddled Jack.  That was one of my favorite scene of them together.  That was love and closeness not just about sex.  It was so sweet and perhaps Jack's happiest moment ever.

Offline welliwont

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2006, 05:43:30 pm »
Awright you guys, yer doin it again, yer bashin my movie....  :'(  I am goin to have to un-notify myself from this thread.  I thought this was a thread about bloopers, but it has transmorgrified into a BBM bashing thread!   :o

Yer too much for me!  I am goin to have to quit this thread!   ::)  I can't for the life of me figur why y'all want to burst yer own ballooons!

:D

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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2006, 09:12:32 pm »
This has always seemed off to me -

In the "Ennis, you know someone name a Jack?" scene, when Ennis picks up that very first postcard from Jack and reads it, there are already marks of wear and wetness on the lower corners where he holds it with his thumbs, as though we're seeing the tenth take of those freshly-wetted hands holding the postcard.

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2006, 09:52:54 pm »
I came across this thread coincidentally. I have read through all of your comments and you are cracking me up.  Here are two that I didn’t see on this thread …

Jack’s feigned bull ride … did you notice he has the whisky bottle open? Then he starts flailing his arms … the bottle is closed. Then he falls … the bottle is open again and he takes a drink. Hmmmm ….  :-\

Another thing …. the timeline when Jack meets Lureen and has the baby. It is intended to be Jack’s baby … no doubt. But, if they met in July 1966 …. they get married (IMO, their marriage was a “shot gun”) …. the baby is born. The postcard to Ennis says September 1967. Jack gets there … his baby is 8 months old? It would make more sense if the baby was 8 weeks old … especially considering Jack’s expression when he walks out of the bedroom.  ;)

PS I think it is so funny that you have mentioned the three things that drive me most nuts … the log, Ennis’ “funny winter dance” and Bobby.  ;D
Diane

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Offline Rayn

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2006, 02:21:29 am »
OMG... I saw log the Jack "made disappear"!   Do you think maybe he was doin' magic tricks for Aguirre?      ??? 

LOL
Rayn

PS: Yes, I watched the movie for the 7th time....     & yeah, it still got me good.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 02:29:28 am by Rayn »

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2006, 04:34:15 am »
PS: Yes, I watched the movie for the 7th time....     & yeah, it still got me good.

good, he?
I watched the dvd for the first time last week, wondering if it would get me like it did in the theatre. and yeah, crying, feeling very sad all over again.

ps I have always asked myself where those rain coats came from they wore when the sheep were counted at the end of the summer. Didn't look like that fitted in the paper bag ennis was carrying when he came to signal.
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Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2006, 02:22:40 pm »
ps I have always asked myself where those rain coats came from they wore when the sheep were counted at the end of the summer. Didn't look like that fitted in the paper bag ennis was carrying when he came to signal.
[/quote]

That's true.  I assume all he had in the end of summer was a pair of pants in that bag.  Maybe they belong to Jack and he lend it to Ennis.  I only see them wearing them one other time in the "No more beans" scene.

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2006, 07:49:35 pm »
Is it just me ... or does it seem like Alma, Jr. is very close to Jenny's age when you first see them through the 4th of July ... and then, when Ennis goes into the grocery store ... Jenny looks like she's the same age as she was before, but Alma, Jr. looks like she is two years older than Jenny??
Diane

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Offline richardg49

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2006, 03:00:10 am »
So this is where all the nit-pickers hang out!  Hi, guys!

I posted this on IMDB, but no-one much noticed, so let's see what true Brokies might have to say:

Didn't you think it odd that there were no Bettermost Beans on any of the shelves in Monroe's grocery store? Given the fact that they featured prominently in the earlier mountain scenes, it would have been appropriate to have placed a stack of them somewhere in the background in that scene. I think this was definitely a missed opportunity on the part of the set-decoration crew. What do you think?
I gave him what I hoped was that hopeful innocent puppy look that said “don’t you just want ta rub my tummy” rather than that hungry, ravenous wolf look that said “why don’t you just come out a that brick house so I can eat you up little pig?” LVH: 'What I did on my Day Off'

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2006, 05:23:22 pm »
So this is where all the nit-pickers hang out!  Hi, guys!

I posted this on IMDB, but no-one much noticed, so let's see what true Brokies might have to say:

Didn't you think it odd that there were no Bettermost Beans on any of the shelves in Monroe's grocery store? Given the fact that they featured prominently in the earlier mountain scenes, it would have been appropriate to have placed a stack of them somewhere in the background in that scene. I think this was definitely a missed opportunity on the part of the set-decoration crew. What do you think?


 :o :o :o
Wow!  I'm glad you brought this up!  I ALWAYS try to scan the shelves in the grocery store to see if I can find beans... and not even just BetterMost beans.  I feel like I'd need a slow motion scanner to look really carefully.  It seems like some of the cans that are visible might possibly be bean cans.  But, I can't really tell. 

My favorite background detail in the grocery store is the Jolly Green Giant sign that we see behind Monroe when he arrives to help with the broken peanuts.  Somehow both the Jolly Green Giant and Monroe work to make each other seem even more ridiculous... if that makes any sense.
 ::)
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Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2006, 06:38:00 pm »
My favorite background detail in the grocery store is the Jolly Green Giant sign that we see behind Monroe when he arrives to help with the broken peanuts.  Somehow both the Jolly Green Giant and Monroe work to make each other seem even more ridiculous... if that makes any sense.

As long as you don't think the Jolly Green Giant has anything to do with a part of Monroe's anatomy. (You know ... Monroe is "green" with envy ... but he  better not be jolly because he's giant ... if you know what I mean!!  :laugh:
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2006, 03:35:41 pm »
Personally, I'm not at all angry. And in fact, 2robots4u, that has been said before -- plenty of times!

People deal with the movie in different ways. The common denominator is that we all came here because we were interested enough in the movie to spend time and energy discussing it. Some like interpreting the symbols, some like analyzing the characters' motivations, some like figuring out the ambiguous parts, some like writing fan fic, some like drooling over Jake and Heath, some like discussing their own "real life" issues, some like forming a community with other Brokies, some like "picking out EVERY little inconsistency in the time line and story line," some like "enjoying the movie for the movie's sake"  ... and so on.

Many people -- myself, for instance -- do more than one of the above. To each his/her own!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 05:11:41 pm by latjoreme »

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2006, 05:07:30 pm »
Personally, I'm not at all angry. And in fact, 2robots4u, that has been said before -- plenty of times!

People deal with the movie in different ways. The common denominator is that we all came here because we were interested enough in the movie to spend time and energy discussing it. Some like interpreting the symbols, some like analyzing the characters' motivations, some like posing thoughts about the ambiguous parts, some like writing fan fic, some like drooling over Jake and Heath, some like discussing their own issues in "real life," some like forming a community with other Brokies, some like "picking out EVERY little inconsistency in the time line and story line," some like "enjoying the movie for the movie's sake"  ... and so on.

Many people -- myself, for instance -- do more than one of the above. To each his/her own!

Ditto.
Diane

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Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2006, 04:00:08 pm »
Personally, I'm not at all angry. And in fact, 2robots4u, that has been said before -- plenty of times!

People deal with the movie in different ways. The common denominator is that we all came here because we were interested enough in the movie to spend time and energy discussing it. Some like interpreting the symbols, some like analyzing the characters' motivations, some like figuring out the ambiguous parts, some like writing fan fic, some like drooling over Jake and Heath, some like discussing their own "real life" issues, some like forming a community with other Brokies, some like "picking out EVERY little inconsistency in the time line and story line," some like "enjoying the movie for the movie's sake"  ... and so on.

Many people -- myself, for instance -- do more than one of the above. To each his/her own!

Second ditto.  I love this movie so much and I'm here to do a little of everything.  I think it's great that we can discuss every aspect of it.  This movie is way to powerful to be kept inside, and since I'm the only one in my family who watched it, I need to let it out somewhere before I burst.  This site is the perfect spot.  I felt so alone then until now.

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2006, 05:09:50 pm »
Hmm… I’ve read about the ‘goofs’ in the film, none of which bother me because I can indeed suspend my disbelief and because I so love the film. 

The last scene with Alma Jr and Ennis I think was realistic and poignant. No matter how close a child is to his/her parent, for a while when they are teenagers they just aren’t around much because their peers are more important. Lots of parents think boy/girl friends are ‘interchangeable’ and don’t pay that much attention. You’re right, Ennis was focusing on his grief and not paying attention to who Jr was dating. In his mind he probably considered her too young to be serious about someone.

The snow scene with Ennis where he ‘dances’ around wasn't as funny once I read some different interpretations. In many Asian cultures the color white symbolizes death. The white washed house of the Twists with their dead son, the dad’s cold attitude, Jack’s empty room, all embody death I think. The snow scene was interpreted as a portent to Jack’s death as Ennis is alone, isolated, confused, and frightened. After all, they are going to come down the mountain and he'll lose Jack for 4 years.

The scene where Ennis picks up the supplies (before they run into the bear) and he says why didn't they get the powdered milk and the spuds? He's indignant but stammering, not quite able to get the words out - I find that amusing.

Another discrepancy, when Jack is taking the prize-winning ride on Sleepy, he switches arms: left right left….

 :P For repeat viewings of BBM, I fast-forward the scene where Cassie meets him and again when she sees him after he’s been out of touch. I even skip over “The Devil’s Right Hand” on the CD cause I don’t like it. There was WAY too much Cassie in the film.

I think I can safely speak for all BBM fans when I say we woulda liked to have seen this scene from the book in the movie!
Quote
"Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close… Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis’s legs… ‘I used a want a boy for a kid,’ said Ennis, undoing buttons.” All the while they are having an ordinary conversation about their kids. This scene ends with them rolling in the dirt.
Little Bobby bugs me, too! Of all the cute kids in the world, he isn’t one of them. The whole scene seems off.  ??? And Lureen tells him to eat his dinner BEFORE the turkey is carved! Plus WHAT is that bowl of slop Bobby is eating??

“Could you wipe Alma Jr’s nose?” She’s in the other room!! I know the kid has a cold but how does she know it needs wiping right then?

Richardg49: “Didn't you think it odd that there were no Bettermost Beans on any of the shelves in Monroe's grocery store? Given the fact that they featured prominently in the earlier mountain scenes, it would have been appropriate to have placed a stack of them somewhere in the background in that scene. I think this was definitely a missed opportunity on the part of the set-decoration crew. What do you think?”

all I can say is  I'm sicka beans!  NO MORE BEANS!!




mvansand76

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2006, 10:10:24 am »
Richardg49: “Didn't you think it odd that there were no Bettermost Beans on any of the shelves in Monroe's grocery store? Given the fact that they featured prominently in the earlier mountain scenes, it would have been appropriate to have placed a stack of them somewhere in the background in that scene. I think this was definitely a missed opportunity on the part of the set-decoration crew. What do you think?”

all I can say is  I'm sicka beans!  NO MORE BEANS!!


Hee hee hee, great observation!

moremojo

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2006, 08:52:53 pm »
On a light note... I don't like the hat that Ennis starts wearing as he gets older... The one that he's wearing when he meets Jack in the blue parka (when Jack's cooking the corn).  I think the hat is supposed to make Ennis look older.  Well, that definitely works.  But, I still just don't like that hat.
 :-\
I agree, this is my least favorite of all the hats seen in the film, and yet, ironically, I recently invested in an older-Ennis style hat, and have been wearing it pretty regularly. A cowboy hat, of the kind we see Jack sport throughout the movie, would just make this cityboy feel too self-conscious (though Texas born and bred). Not that I mind seeing other fellas wear them...don't mind one bit! ;)

Scott

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2006, 03:20:48 pm »
There was WAY too much Cassie in the film.

I agree with this 100 percent.  Even though I sort of like Cassie in her own right... I just don't care that much.  I would exchange a Cassie scene for another later-camping-scene with Jack and Ennis any day.  I feel like we really don't have enough information about Ennis and Jack in the later years of their relationship to even really grasp how the dynamics between them evolve.  It's a shame that Lee focuses so much attention on the tension between them too in the later years.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2006, 03:58:16 pm »
I agree with this 100 percent.  Even though I sort of like Cassie in her own right... I just don't care that much.  I would exchange a Cassie scene for another later-camping-scene with Jack and Ennis any day.  I feel like we really don't have enough information about Ennis and Jack in the later years of their relationship to even really grasp how the dynamics between them evolve.  It's a shame that Lee focuses so much attention on the tension between them too in the later years.
...and I agree with YOU 100 percent! Someone pointed out that the later scenes of Jack & Ennis, they are sitting apart from each other "like a couple of straight guys." I know sometimes it's about the camera angle, but they could have sat shoulder to shoulder, or had their legs intertwined while sitting by the fire. Lovers often rest their hands on the other person's thigh, etc. If we couldn't have another love scene we could have at least had an affection scene! Something that shows they were very familiar and comfortable with each other.
-Leslie

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2006, 09:49:48 pm »
Someone pointed out that the later scenes of Jack & Ennis, they are sitting apart from each other "like a couple of straight guys." I know sometimes it's about the camera angle, but they could have sat shoulder to shoulder, or had their legs intertwined while sitting by the fire. Lovers often rest their hands on the other person's thigh, etc. If we couldn't have another love scene we could have at least had an affection scene! Something that shows they were very familiar and comfortable with each other.
-Leslie

But they do ... in TS3. It is that scene that seems very intimate and loving (albeit not near as intense or graphic as it was in the beginning of the film).
Diane

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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2006, 10:53:36 pm »
I agree with this 100 percent.  Even though I sort of like Cassie in her own right... I just don't care that much.  I would exchange a Cassie scene for another later-camping-scene with Jack and Ennis any day.  I feel like we really don't have enough information about Ennis and Jack in the later years of their relationship to even really grasp how the dynamics between them evolve.  It's a shame that Lee focuses so much attention on the tension between them too in the later years.
I agree with you as well. The 2003 screenplay show much more scenes of later and different camping trips, BUT no FNIT OR SNIT at least from the inside.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 02:43:39 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2006, 02:47:10 pm »
I agree with this 100 percent.  Even though I sort of like Cassie in her own right... 
I do like Cassie, But after the first scene,she  could have been replaced with  more Jack and Ennis.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2006, 05:30:37 pm »
I do like Cassie, But after the first scene,she  could have been replaced with  more Jack and Ennis.

I agreed also.  I find myself skipping some of her scenes also, but I felt she is neccessary in telling the story of Ennis' life.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2006, 08:32:09 pm »
All of the "secondary" relationships are given much more time and attention in the film.  I don't even think Cassie is mentioned by name in the story.  I think the screenplay writers thought of this as a way to flush out and expand the story for a movie-length telling of the story... but they also could have done this with more analysis of how Jack and Ennis's relationship itself grew.  Honestly, we don't have much of a clue as to how they interacted with each other in later camping scenes (other than silent-scenic shots, brief arguments, abrupt cuts, etc.).  I've complained about this a lot, but it's bothering me more and more as time goes on.
 >:(
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2006, 08:37:02 pm »
All of the "secondary" relationships are given much more time and attention in the film.  I don't even think Cassie is mentioned by name in the story.  I think the screenplay writers thought of this as a way to flush out and expand the story for a movie-length telling of the story... but they also could have done this with more analysis of how Jack and Ennis's relationship itself grew.  Honestly, we don't have much of a clue as to how they interacted with each other in later camping scenes (other than silent-scenic shots, brief arguments, abrupt cuts, etc.).  I've complained about this a lot, but it's bothering me more and more as time goes on.
 >:(
Except we know from everything that was shown the spark was alwasys there.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2006, 08:42:30 pm »
All of the "secondary" relationships are given much more time and attention in the film.  I don't even think Cassie is mentioned by name in the story.  I think the screenplay writers thought of this as a way to flush out and expand the story for a movie-length telling of the story... but they also could have done this with more analysis of how Jack and Ennis's relationship itself grew.  Honestly, we don't have much of a clue as to how they interacted with each other in later camping scenes (other than silent-scenic shots, brief arguments, abrupt cuts, etc.).  I've complained about this a lot, but it's bothering me more and more as time goes on.
 >:(

True enough.  I would love to see a couple more scenes of Jack and Ennis or extend the existing scene more.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2006, 08:49:22 pm »
True enough.  I would love to see a couple more scenes of Jack and Ennis or extend the existing scene more.
I agree, The 2003 screen play shows a lot more of the later trips. I always used to wish that we could see their last moments together, between"I can't stand..." and Ennis driving away. But these were their private moments and we know without even seeing Jack watch Ennis drive away that he stay as long as he needed to to comfort Ennis, and make sure he was ok.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2006, 08:52:12 pm »
I agree, The 2003 screen play shows a lot more of the later trips. I always used to wish that we could see their last moments together, between"I can't stand..." and Ennis driving away. But these were their private moments and we know without even seeing Jack watch Ennis drive away that he stay as long as he needed to to comfort Ennis, and make sure he was ok.

Where can I find the 2003 version of this screenplay!
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2006, 09:04:47 pm »
Where can I find the 2003 version of this screenplay!
I got one from Amazon. All it realy shows are more of the montages like before the next to last trip shown, horse back rideing, cooking around the fire, the dialogue about lassoing a coyote, maybe covering three more trips. NOFNIT or SNIT.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2006, 07:24:36 pm »
I think I just spotted a tiny goof in the "happy tussle" scene. As they run toward the left of the screen, there's a horse standing there in the campsite. The horse leans forward to grab a bite of leaves or something, and I think I see a shadowy figure behind the bushes pull the horse back. So Ennis and Jack were being watched by someone at much closer range than Aguirre!

Has anyone else seen this? I was watching it on YouTube, with a small screen, so maybe I shouldn't trust my eyes. And imdb doesn't have it on its list of the movie's goofs (though I learned about a few on that list that I hadn't noticed and probably never otherwise would have!).

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2006, 08:03:38 pm »
I think I just spotted a tiny goof in the "happy tussle" scene. As they run toward the left of the screen, there's a horse standing there in the campsite. The horse leans forward to grab a bite of leaves or something, and I think I see a shadowy figure behind the bushes pull the horse back. So Ennis and Jack were being watched by someone at much closer range than Aguirre!

Hey there Bud,

Nope I haven't noticed the "shadowy figure" yet.  But, I'll look next time I watch.  I wonder if that's the reason that Jack covers their faces with Ennis's hat while they kiss!
 ::) ;)
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2006, 09:15:41 pm »
Nope I haven't noticed the "shadowy figure" yet.  But, I'll look next time I watch.  I wonder if that's the reason that Jack covers their faces with Ennis's hat while they kiss!
 ::) ;)

I'll have to watch for that, too. But isn't it Ennis who takes his hat off and holds it to cover their faces? If your DVD has a magnifier, use it. You will see that it is Ennis' hand holding his own hat, not Jack.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2006, 01:50:51 pm »
You know how Alma asks Ennis to pick her up some smokes as he & Jack are running out the door to the Siesta Motel? Well I know she's using it to stall and give Ennis a reason to come home earlier which I understand, BUT, do we ever see Alma smoke in the whole film? The next morning when Ennis comes home & Alma is sitting at the table with a 1/2 cup of cold coffee, shouldn't there be an over-flowing ashtray there?

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2006, 06:29:26 pm »
You know how Alma asks Ennis to pick her up some smokes as he & Jack are running out the door to the Siesta Motel? Well I know she's using it to stall and give Ennis a reason to come home earlier which I understand, BUT, do we ever see Alma smoke in the whole film? The next morning when Ennis comes home & Alma is sitting at the table with a 1/2 cup of cold coffee, shouldn't there be an over-flowing ashtray there?

Good observation. I always thought it was just that Michelle Williams didn't smoke. But there could have at least been a prop!  :laugh:
Diane

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Offline coffeecat33

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2006, 09:30:18 am »
I thought I was observant but I obviously I need to view it again! Thanks cc33

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2006, 11:18:19 am »
The full-screen version shows a half-full ashtray on the table near Alma.

Barbara - there you go again being observant! Another thing to watch for tonight!
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2006, 02:34:00 pm »
Thanks for clearing this up, Barbara. I've been wondering about it since seeing the smoking post the other day. Especially because I believe I have seen a photo of Michelle Williams smoking!

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2006, 05:34:09 pm »
Thanks for clearing this up, Barbara. I've been wondering about it since seeing the smoking post the other day. Especially because I believe I have seen a photo of Michelle Williams smoking!

Really?? That kind of surprises me!
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2006, 04:53:25 pm »
Quote
Especially because I believe I have seen a photo of Michelle Williams smoking!

Quote
Really?? That kind of surprises me

Yep, I'm pretty sure I've sen pic of her smoking. And I also believe to remember an article or interview, where it was said that both, Heath and Michelle, stopped smoking during Michelle's pregnancy. But I'm not sure about the latter.


I have another scene, which ain't right. Don't know if it was mentioned before.

When Jack sits with Randall outside the town hall (or wherever the charity dance is supposed to have taken place) on a bench: The moustache looks fake in this scene. And Jack/Jake looks much too young. Especially in one short shot, when Jack is shot from the left side.
The scene is supposed to be in 1978, so Jack must have been mid-thirties. But he looks 10 years younger. Jake's age, but not Jack's at this point of the movie.

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2006, 09:42:23 pm »
Penthesilea..I thought the 'stache looked fake in all the  scenes (and the sideburns, too, but let's not go back to that issue).  I don't see him looking younger in the bench scene; maybe the lighting helped out. 

Barbara..you're so observant!  Maybe you should have edited this movie and fixed all the things that aren't kosher...but, wait, then we wouldn't have anything to "rewatch", which is exactly what I will be doing a few minutes...Doug
 

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2006, 09:55:36 pm »
Although, for the most part, Heath does a phenomenal job … there are a few words that I hear his “Aussie” accent coming through. Words like “girls,” “church,” and “shirt.” Anyone else hear this?
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2006, 10:30:02 pm »
As a Virgo, I thought I was a champeen nit-picker but you all take the cherry cake! I was very surprised in an interview after I saw BBM to hear Heath's Aussie accent - I had no idea, so no, I didn't notice the accent. I wonder if Michelle was pregnant during the filming?? When I was re-watching the reunion scene in slo-mo, Michelle's buttons are straining over her bosom. I know it's her character not having nice clothes, but along with the smoking-not-smoking, it made me wonder if she was pregnant. (Speaking of buttons, I love to watch Jack pull on Ennis' shirt so the button pops off during That Kiss.) You know, I didn't think Jake/Jack aged all that "successfully" until the scene switches to the Dozy Embrace and then Jack & Ennis look so youthful and beautiful then cut to Jack looking all disillusioned and unhappy and middle-aged. One scene I think is good is when Ennis is giving Junior a ride back to her house, when she asks if she can live with him and he says no. There must not be more than - what - 8 years difference between the two, but Heath really seemed like her dad in that scene especially. A really good-looking dad, but stilll....

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2006, 10:56:24 pm »
  (Speaking of buttons, I love to watch Jack pull on Ennis' shirt so the button pops off during That Kiss
And magicly is rebuttoned when the camera angle changes
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2006, 06:30:43 pm »
(Speaking of buttons, I love to watch Jack pull on Ennis' shirt so the button pops off during That Kiss.)

And magicly is rebuttoned when the camera angle changes

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I always wondered how Ennis put himself together so quickly after Jack and his clinch! (Ennis does wipe his mouth, however ... have you noticed? Like ... "OMG! I can't let Alma see any saliva dripping from my mouth!)
Diane

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Offline 2robots4u

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2006, 07:18:42 pm »
Hi, Diane...I just watched this scene a few minutes ago.  I noticed that Ennis DOES try to tuck in his shirt.  Can't decide if it was for the better or not.  Do you think Alma notices? ..Doug
 

Offline dly64

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2006, 07:43:58 pm »
Hi, Diane...I just watched this scene a few minutes ago.  I noticed that Ennis DOES try to tuck in his shirt.  Can't decide if it was for the better or not.  Do you think Alma notices? ..Doug

Who knows!  :-\ She was in such a state of complete and utter shock, I can't imagine her seeing anything but the image of that awesome kiss (of course, I am sure she wouldn't have seen it as being very "awesome," I am sure!  ;))
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline JT

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #93 on: August 28, 2006, 09:59:07 pm »
I don't think Alma notice that.  She closed the door right after that awesome kiss.  I don't think she would want to so back to take another look.  Like Diane said, she is in a complete state of shock.

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2006, 12:05:18 pm »
"Only thing, don't never order soup. ... Them soup boxes are hard to pack."
"Don't eat soup." -Ennis Del Mar

Who doesn't eat soup!!?? And beans and soup both come in cans don't they? Wouldn't they weigh about the same and be equally hard (or easy) to pack? It ain't right.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: "It ain't right."
« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2006, 12:17:57 pm »
"Only thing, don't never order soup. ... Them soup boxes are hard to pack."
"Don't eat soup." -Ennis Del Mar

Who doesn't eat soup!!?? And beans and soup both come in cans don't they? Wouldn't they weigh about the same and be equally hard (or easy) to pack? It ain't right.
The soup came in 'boxes'.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.