Author Topic: The Brokeback Mountain movie purposely did Jack as a whorl? Anniedid not at all?  (Read 15991 times)

Offline Artiste

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        The Brokeback Mountain movie purposely did Jack as a whorl? Annie did not at all?           

Offline Artiste

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The subject of this thread still is not a discussion!

Doesn't anyone notice the differences??

Offline brokeplex

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        The Brokeback Mountain movie purposely did Jack as a whorl? Annie did not at all?           
what is a "whorl"?

pnwDUDE

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what is a "whorl"?

I think it's one of them paintings by that guy Andrew. Wait, I think he goes by Andy.  ;D

Brad

Offline CellarDweller

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Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline LauraGigs

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Assuming that Artiste meant whore, I would say that neither really portrayed Jack as a whore.  But actually, Annie came closer to doing that than the film did. 

In the motel room scene, she alludes to the many, many rodeo events Jack attended (crisscrossing the land, etc). And then she states "[Jack] had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."

Whereas the film portrays the rodeo life on the road as basically lonely for Jack — all the better to drive him to the arms of Lureen, holy matrimony and parenthood.

Offline LauraGigs

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...although I must add that it's just my opinion/observation.  If you've got any other thoughts, chime in!   8)

Offline mariez

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I agree with your observations, Laura.  AP also mentioned that he had money once L.D. died and found ways to spend it on his buying trips.  I don't think AP intended to make him come across as a whore at all, but I do think the movie glossed over or eliminated some of the points made in the short story.
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The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline gwyllion

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Oh, a "whore!"  I have been wondering about this question for awhile.  and wondering what a "whorl" was ;)

Oh yes, Jack in the book was quite unlikeable to me because he lied to Ennis in the motel room when he could have come clean.  Ennis asks him if he has been with other guys after Ennis says that he has not.  Jack lies, but it was really an unnecessary lie at that point in their relationship. 

In the movie, however, when Jack tells Ennis that he has been to Mexico, the "What I don't know is likely to get you killed" conversations ensues.  This makes me way more sympathetic to movie Jack.  (Besides, JG has nicer teeth than book Jack!)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Oh yes, Jack in the book was quite unlikeable to me because he lied to Ennis in the motel room when he could have come clean.  Ennis asks him if he has been with other guys after Ennis says that he has not.  Jack lies, but it was really an unnecessary lie at that point in their relationship. 

I'm not so sure Jack's lie was unnecessary at that point in the story. I don't have the text in front of me, but IIRC, Ennis has just said that he "knows" he isn't "queer," so I'd say Ennis is still grappling with things at that point. I think maybe Jack was afraid of how Ennis might react--that is, he might lose Ennis--if he (Jack) doesn't go along with the pretense that they're not "queer." Admitting that he had been with other guys--lots of other guys--in the intervening four years would have been tantamount to admitting that he's gay.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Clyde-B

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  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
 
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Offline Brown Eyes

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I'm not so sure Jack's lie was unnecessary at that point in the story. I don't have the text in front of me, but IIRC, Ennis has just said that he "knows" he isn't "queer," so I'd say Ennis is still grappling with things at that point. I think maybe Jack was afraid of how Ennis might react--that is, he might lose Ennis--if he (Jack) doesn't go along with the pretense that they're not "queer." Admitting that he had been with other guys--lots of other guys--in the intervening four years would have been tantamount to admitting that he's gay.

I agree Jeff.  I think Jack chooses his words extremely carefully with Ennis.  I think he understand that admitting that he's been with other guys... would be equivalent to admitting that the relationship with Ennis wasn't a "one shot thing."  And, not in the sense of fidelity... but in the sense that the male-male relationship was meant to be an anomaly for both men.

It seems quite clear to me that Jack is afraid of scaring Ennis off with a more candid admission about his real sexuality. 

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline southendmd

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That's hilarious, Clyde!

Offline gwyllion

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Aaaah, Jeff Wrangler and atz75.  I see and understand the point you are both making.  Jack lied to not scare Ennis away.  I think it has to do with where in the book the lie occurs.  The motel is 15 years before the Mexico confession, so it was necessary after all.  I'm just a little grasshopper here.   :)
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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That is the funniest thing I've seen all day!
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Artiste

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Merci to all !

Your observations are interesting!

Many more can be said too!

I long to see them!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Monika

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I must confess that at times I´ve felt a bit antagonistic towards Jack, because of his many affairs. But I understand why he does what he does. I guess it´s just that that I feel a bit protective of Ennis and Ennis and Jack as a couple.
Just the thought of Jack being with another man that isn´t Ennis makes me a bit sick. It feels as though all other men saw him as a piece of meat, while the thing he had with Ennis was about so much more. Jack deserved better than some short back alley encounters. The only one who ever saw the beauty of Jack Twist was Ennis, and the only one who ever saw how really beautiful Ennis is was Jack. It´s like the truley best versions of each men only exist when they are together. When they are apart, the are both less. Without each other they are nothing more than shadows of the persons they could be.

Offline Artiste

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Merci beaucoup buffymon!


You surprise me that you think and feel that now!

You sure can write well !

You see what you say now in both Annie's story as well as in the movie??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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The only one who ever saw the beauty of Jack Twist was Ennis, and the only one who ever saw how really beautiful Ennis is was Jack. It´s like the truley best versions of each men only exist when they are together. When they are apart, the are both less. Without each other they are nothing more than shadows of the persons they could be.


This is really well stated Bud!  I think it's very accurate.  When they're apart, they both just seem to struggle... over different things.  But, still, their lives when they're apart just seem so difficult and/or disappointing.

I guess I don't really judge Jack all that harshly about having some affairs. Especially before he and Ennis had the reunion.  Before the 1967 reunion, Jack probably truly thought of himself as single.  There would have been no realistic reason for him to maintain even a pretense of fidelity to Ennis since he probably didn't think he'd ever see Ennis again.

The affairs he has after the divorce scene... I really do partially blame on Ennis... and by then Jack is beginning to get increasingly desparate and more hopeless bit by bit.
I don't think the affairs or encounters with prostitutes mean anything to him beyond scratching a physical itch.  The affairs and prostitutes are sad to me because they're degrading to Jack, and yes, they're certainly not a good thing when thinking about the relationship between Ennis and Jack.

But, Ennis was having an affair too... with Cassie.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Merci atz!

Since you say:
      I don't think the affairs or encounters with prostitutes mean anything to him beyond scratching a physical itch.  The affairs and prostitutes are sad to me because they're degrading to Jack, and yes, they're certainly not a good thing when thinking about the relationship between Ennis and Jack.

But, Ennis was having an affair too... with Cassie.
                     

......

Atz, then it comes to my mind that Jack wants to consider being gay (homosexual), and Ennis desires to be straight (heterosexual); at those times you mention??


Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Yes, I think Jack is much more conscious of his sexuality from the beginning, while Ennis is in denial for a long, long time.  I think Ennis comes to a much better understanding of himself by the end of the film... but it's a matter of debate as to when... and whether there were baby steps of progress along the way.

One more thing I want to add about Jack and fidelity... it seems to me that if Ennis had agreed to live with Jack and really build a life with him, I don't think Jack would have ever strayed.  My gut feeling is that Jack would have been completely faithful in a fully-realized relationship with Ennis.  And, of course I feel the same thing about Ennis.




the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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I must confess that at times I´ve felt a bit antagonistic towards Jack, because of his many affairs. But I understand why he does what he does. I guess it´s just that that I feel a bit protective of Ennis and Ennis and Jack as a couple.
Just the thought of Jack being with another man that isn´t Ennis makes me a bit sick. It feels as though all other men saw him as a piece of meat, while the thing he had with Ennis was about so much more. Jack deserved better than some short back alley encounters. The only one who ever saw the beauty of Jack Twist was Ennis, and the only one who ever saw how really beautiful Ennis is was Jack. It´s like the truley best versions of each men only exist when they are together. When they are apart, the are both less. Without each other they are nothing more than shadows of the persons they could be.


This is interesting, Buffymon, but is there any real evidence that Jack had a lot of affairs?  Or perhaps I can't bear to think the worst about him, I don't know.  I don't even believe Jack had an affair with Randall.

Offline brokeplex

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The effect of Ennis's scene with OMT in the Twist kitchen is contingent upon both Ennis and OMT having an understanding that Jack did have an affair with Randall. 

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Artiste, if you mean whore, I don't think either the movie or Annie P meant to portray Jack in such a light.  But I understand your question and realize that Jack may come across as a whore.  When my sister saw BBM for the first time, she referred to Jack as a "Ho!"  :laugh:

Offline brokeplex

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Jack was sexually active, there is no doubt. I am not sure I would call him a whore. I am sure that Ennis was not Jack's first sexual contact, and after he and Ennis split up in 1963, Jack was busy in TX rodeoing and trying to pick up a rodeo clown and heiresses.

Jack had been to "Mexico" probably numerous times in the 20 years between 1963 and 1983, and probably had an ongoing dalliance with Randall - that fishing house on Lake Kemp came in handy. But, in the end, it was Ennis's shirt which was nestled in Jack's shirt, and in the closet scene in OMT's house, Ennis understood that in spite of Jack's wandering ways, it was Ennis that Jack loved, and vice versa.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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The effect of Ennis's scene with OMT in the Twist kitchen is contingent upon both Ennis and OMT having an understanding that Jack did have an affair with Randall. 

Possibly.  Or perhaps OMT mentioned the "affair" to hurt Ennis.  I don't think the old man was so much angry that Jack was gay than as he failed to bring Ennis up there to whip the ranch into shape.  Jack may have mentioned Randall to placate his father:  that he would actually bring someone up there, perhaps after promising to move Ennis up; a move that never happened. 

Offline Brown Eyes

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Jack had been to "Mexico" probably numerous times in the 20 years between 1963 and 1983, and probably had an ongoing dalliance with Randall - that fishing house on Lake Kemp came in handy. But, in the end, it was Ennis's shirt which was nestled in Jack's shirt, and in the closet scene in OMT's house, Ennis understood that in spite of Jack's wandering ways, it was Ennis that Jack loved, and vice versa.

I don't believe that Jack went to Mexico until after Ennis rejected him following Ennis's divorce.

It doesn't matter if he was dating men or women when he was on the rodeo circuit... at that point he didn't believe he was in a relationship with Ennis.  And had no real reason to think he'd ever see Ennis again.  To me anything that happened between 63 and 67 with Jack really doesn't have much to do with Ennis (other than those people were probably Ennis-substitutes in his mind).

And, I believe that Jack was faithful to Ennis until Ennis's divorce.  That's when Ennis blew it.

But, I do believe he had an affair with Randall.  I don't see it as anything worse than Ennis dating Cassie. 



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Offline brokeplex

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1) Possibly.  Or perhaps OMT mentioned the "affair" to hurt Ennis. 

2) I don't think the old man was so much angry that Jack was gay than as he failed to bring Ennis up there to whip the ranch into shape. 

3) Jack may have mentioned Randall to placate his father:  that he would actually bring someone up there, perhaps after promising to move Ennis up; a move that never happened. 
 

1) And he couldn't know that he could "hurt" Ennis unless he understood 2 things: Jack had a close relationship with both Ennis and Jack. So, both OMT and Ennis knew that Jack had "affairs"

2) I agree completely with that practical aspect of OMT. He wouldn't have let Ennis in the door if he wasn't partially resigned to his son's activities. That doesn't mean that OMT was fighting for gay rights!  :laugh: But he wasn't like Ennis's father - who seems to have been a probable murdering homophobe.

3) good point, that ties in with OMT's comment about how "none of Jacks ideas ever come to pass". one of the most poignant lines in the movie, to me that underneath the gruff laconic exterior, OMT had to have loved his son but didn't understand how to relate to him.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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1) And he couldn't know that he could "hurt" Ennis unless he understood 2 things: Jack had a close relationship with both Ennis and Jack. So, both OMT and Ennis knew that Jack had "affairs"

Jack had a close relationship with both Ennis and Jack? I don't understand, Brokeplex.  How did OMT and Ennis know that Jack had affairs?  I believe there was an unspoken rule between the two.  Remember the Short leash?  Jack knew that Ennis insisted their relationship be exclusive, or both would be queer: a big no-no for Ennis. Ennis was a homophobic gay man who didn't want to be queer ("Boys like you!"), and Jack went along (or he allowed Ennis to think he went along) which is why he was so secretive about his "affairs."

Quote
2) I agree completely with that practical aspect of OMT. He wouldn't have let Ennis in the door if he wasn't partially resigned to his son's activities. That doesn't mean that OMT was fighting for gay rights!  :laugh: But he wasn't like Ennis's father - who seems to have been a probable murdering homophobe.

Agreed

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3) good point, that ties in with OMT's comment about how "none of Jacks ideas ever come to pass". one of the most poignant lines in the movie, to me that underneath the gruff laconic exterior, OMT had to have loved his son but didn't understand how to relate to him.


I agree with this, as well.  Man it feels good to talk about the movie again!

Offline Monika

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2) I agree completely with that practical aspect of OMT. He wouldn't have let Ennis in the door if he wasn't partially resigned to his son's activities. That doesn't mean that OMT was fighting for gay rights!  :laugh: But he wasn't like Ennis's father - who seems to have been a probable murdering homophobe.

It could be denial. OMT knows, but doesn´t wanna know.

Offline Monika

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But, I do believe he had an affair with Randall.  I don't see it as anything worse than Ennis dating Cassie. 



I guess why I react more strongly to Jack/Randall then Ennis/Cassie is that Cassie never is any real threath to Jack/Ennis. To me they are both clearly gay so the Ennis/Cassie relationship is clearly due to Ennis´s need to live a "normal" (which to him means heterosexual) life.

Offline Brown Eyes

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I guess why I react more strongly to Jack/Randall then Ennis/Cassie is that Cassie never is any real threath to Jack/Ennis. To me they are both clearly gay so the Ennis/Cassie relationship is clearly due to Ennis´s need to live a "normal" (which to him means heterosexual) life.

Cassie was certainly a threat to the relationship between Jack and Ennis... she was one more excuse Ennis used to keep Jack away.  After his divorce there was no real reason for him to try to build a relationship with anyone other than Jack.

And, Ennis's treatment of Cassie in and of itself, in and of itself was pretty poor... since all he was doing was using her to prop up a false image for himself.

I'm not saying that Jack's behavior was stellar.  But, Ennis behaved equally poorly.  And my point remains... that neither one of them would have cheated, in all likelihood, if Ennis had just said "yes" to building a real life and relationship with Jack.

In the form of relationship Ennis offered Jack as we see it (the painful meetings once or twice a year, demanding that Jack travel hundreds of miles each time, treating Jack like a dirty little secret, etc.), what was Ennis really giving Jack to commit to? 

To me the biggest threat to the relationship always was Ennis's hang ups.



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

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... neither one of them would have cheated, in all likelihood, if Ennis had just said "yes" to building a real life and relationship with Jack.


Your words are so poignant friend. I would like to add that neither one of them would have strayed, if Wyoming and the World had just said "yes" to their building a life and relationship together.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Monika

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Your words are so poignant friend. I would like to add that neither one of them would have strayed, if Wyoming and the World had just said "yes" to their building a life and relationship together.

I think you nailed it, Lee. Ennis said no because he never thought he could do otherwise. To have said yes would have been completely out of character.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Your words are so poignant friend. I would like to add that neither one of them would have strayed, if Wyoming and the World had just said "yes" to their building a life and relationship together.

I think you nailed it, Lee. Ennis said no because he never thought he could do otherwise. To have said yes would have been completely out of character.


It may have been out of character and, yes society provided a lot of obstacles to their relationship.  But IMHO, Jack was right.  They could have set up a life together.  They really could have.  I truly believe (more and more so as time as a Brokie passes) that Ennis was very short sighted about ways they could have made things work.
 
Staying apart didn't protect them from anything.  They were miserable and Jack died young anyway.   Nothing about the arrangement they set up based on Ennis's fears "worked."  Jack would have been willing to take the risk(s) that living together might involve.  He wasn't naive, but he was aware enough to realize that living happily... even for a little while... would be preferable to prolonged misery year after year.

Ennis's vision of a "normal" or "conventional" life not only ruined his relationship with Jack but it made a lot of other people miserable (the women who got dragged into this primarily).  Living apart didn't even keep their relationship secret.  By the end there's a long list of characters who know about their relationship (Aguirre, Lureen, Jack's parents, probably Junior had some hint of this...).

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Offline Monika

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It may have been out of character and, yes society provided a lot of obstacles to their relationship.  But IMHO, Jack was right.  They could have set up a life together.  They really could have.  I truly believe (more and more so as time as a Brokie passes) that Ennis was very short sighted about ways they could have made things work.
 
Staying apart didn't protect them from anything.  They were miserable and Jack died young anyway.   Nothing about the arrangement they set up based on Ennis's fears "worked."  Jack would have been willing to take the risk(s) that living together might involve.  He wasn't naive, but he was aware enough to realize that living happily... even for a little while... would be preferable to prolonged misery year after year.

Ennis's vision of a "normal" or "conventional" life not only ruined his relationship with Jack but it made a lot of other people miserable (the women who got dragged into this primarily).  Living apart didn't even keep their relationship secret.  By the end there's a long list of characters who know about their relationship (Aguirre, Lureen, Jack's parents, probably Junior had some hint of this...).


You´re right in what you´re saying but to me it comes down to what the story is about. To me it´s not a story about a man who is so short-sighted that he destroys the only chance to happiness he has, but a story about how society (and indeed the Wyoming lanscape itself - it´s after all Annie Proulx we´re talking about) shapes its inhabitants. The impact is so strong that even gay people themelves are homophobes. Jack´s and Ennis´s destinies are decided from the get-go and through out the story they follow the paths that have been decided for them.
They are almost puppets on strings. I don´t think it´s Ennis´s vision of a conventional life that destroys his and Jack´s relationship. It´s society´s vision (represented via Ennis) of a convetional life that destroys it.

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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I thought about this muchly last night, forming a responce in my head, and I think the other posters have more or less reached the same conclusions as I have, but I'll put my 2 cents in :

I think Jack was probably somewhat experienced before he met Ennis. He certainly seemed to know what he wanted. Ennis on the other hand could hardly even admit to himself what he wanted. In their time on the mountain they had the idyllic situation to be close and when confronted with the end of the summer of 1963 it crumbled.

Jack basically had same sex attraction and when he found an opportunity to act on it he did. It is interesting to see the hope in his eyes in the Jimbo scene, it seems he is looking to Jimbo as some kind of stable gratifying situation like he had on the mountain with Ennis. Compare this with the Mexico scene, he is resigned to satisfying the need he has to be with a man, he has given up on affection, love whatever you want to call it and is ready to go off-in the dark to the nasty with a hustler.

And even in the trailhead parking lot, as Ennis drove away from him for the last time, Proulx gives us a rare incite into what he is thinking: the dozy embrace. It satisfied a "sexless hunger" being held by Ennis. He could have built something with someone which was more than sex, but with the restrictions he had on him, the time and place he lived, he took comfort where he could.

The look in Jack's eyes as he watched Ennis ride away, that quiet joy felt when you find a connection with another person. That's the true feeling for me, that and the cut away scene to the trail head parking lot, 20 years later, and his tired face portraying how thing turned out for him. Ennis had accused him of whoring around on him. It is a deep conflict to get the mind around. Ennis' way of demonstrating his love is to threaten to kill him for needing something he hardly ever got. Man, talk about dysfunction.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Monika

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The look in Jack's eyes as he watched Ennis ride away, that quiet joy felt when you find a connection with another person. That's the true feeling for me, that and the cut away scene to the trail head parking lot, 20 years later, and his tired face portraying how thing turned out for him.
this is always when I start to cry like a baby. Those two shots, one following the other...kills me dead

Offline Brown Eyes

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You´re right in what you´re saying but to me it comes down to what the story is about. To me it´s not a story about a man who is so short-sighted that he destroys the only chance to happiness he has, but a story about how society (and indeed the Wyoming lanscape itself - it´s after all Annie Proulx we´re talking about) shapes its inhabitants. The impact is so strong that even gay people themelves are homophobes. Jack´s and Ennis´s destinies are decided from the get-go and through out the story they follow the paths that have been decided for them.
They are almost puppets on strings. I don´t think it´s Ennis´s vision of a conventional life that destroys his and Jack´s relationship. It´s society´s vision (represented via Ennis) of a convetional life that destroys it.


I agree with you too.  I think society (and the frequently related cruelty towards indiividuals and unreasonable conventions) plays a huge role in the tragedy that unfolds in BBM.  I certainly don't deny that.  

But, I also don't think Ennis or Jack are puppets on strings.  They each bear some personal and individual responsibility for their actions and decisions.  There is always the opportunity for individuals to rebel or push back against society.

To me it's a balancing act, between looking at what happened in terms of society's pressures and looking at what happened on personal and individual levels for both Ennis and Jack.  To me it's the personal focus that keeps BBM from becoming too polemical or even particularly "political."  



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Offline Monika

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But, I also don't think Ennis or Jack are puppets on strings.  They each bear some personal and individual responsibility for their actions and decisions.  There is always the opportunity for individuals to rebel or push back against society.



I thought this over again, and you might be right. But it does seem to take a lot for them to go against society. Something like being alone together up on a mountain for an entire summer for example.  ;)

But like the trailer said; there are places we can´t return.

Offline Artiste

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Merci Atz !

You are very instructive in saying:
        I also don't think Ennis or Jack are puppets on strings.  They each bear some personal and individual responsibility for their actions and decisions.  There is always the opportunity for individuals to rebel or push back against society.

To me it's a balancing act...                       


............
Atz, and how can you balance in society? Change it? Accept it?

Au revoir,
hugs!