The Brokeback Mountain movie purposely did Jack as a whorl? Anniedid not at all?

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, I think Jack is much more conscious of his sexuality from the beginning, while Ennis is in denial for a long, long time.  I think Ennis comes to a much better understanding of himself by the end of the film... but it's a matter of debate as to when... and whether there were baby steps of progress along the way.

One more thing I want to add about Jack and fidelity... it seems to me that if Ennis had agreed to live with Jack and really build a life with him, I don't think Jack would have ever strayed.  My gut feeling is that Jack would have been completely faithful in a fully-realized relationship with Ennis.  And, of course I feel the same thing about Ennis.

[Luvlylittlewing]

I must confess that at times I´ve felt a bit antagonistic towards Jack, because of his many affairs. But I understand why he does what he does. I guess it´s just that that I feel a bit protective of Ennis and Ennis and Jack as a couple.
Just the thought of Jack being with another man that isn´t Ennis makes me a bit sick. It feels as though all other men saw him as a piece of meat, while the thing he had with Ennis was about so much more. Jack deserved better than some short back alley encounters. The only one who ever saw the beauty of Jack Twist was Ennis, and the only one who ever saw how really beautiful Ennis is was Jack. It´s like the truley best versions of each men only exist when they are together. When they are apart, the are both less. Without each other they are nothing more than shadows of the persons they could be.

This is interesting, Buffymon, but is there any real evidence that Jack had a lot of affairs?  Or perhaps I can't bear to think the worst about him, I don't know.  I don't even believe Jack had an affair with Randall.

[brokeplex]

The effect of Ennis's scene with OMT in the Twist kitchen is contingent upon both Ennis and OMT having an understanding that Jack did have an affair with Randall. 

[Luvlylittlewing]

Artiste, if you mean whore, I don't think either the movie or Annie P meant to portray Jack in such a light.  But I understand your question and realize that Jack may come across as a whore.  When my sister saw BBM for the first time, she referred to Jack as a "Ho!" 

[brokeplex]

Jack was sexually active, there is no doubt. I am not sure I would call him a whore. I am sure that Ennis was not Jack's first sexual contact, and after he and Ennis split up in 1963, Jack was busy in TX rodeoing and trying to pick up a rodeo clown and heiresses.

Jack had been to "Mexico" probably numerous times in the 20 years between 1963 and 1983, and probably had an ongoing dalliance with Randall - that fishing house on Lake Kemp came in handy. But, in the end, it was Ennis's shirt which was nestled in Jack's shirt, and in the closet scene in OMT's house, Ennis understood that in spite of Jack's wandering ways, it was Ennis that Jack loved, and vice versa.

[Luvlylittlewing]

The effect of Ennis's scene with OMT in the Twist kitchen is contingent upon both Ennis and OMT having an understanding that Jack did have an affair with Randall. 

Possibly.  Or perhaps OMT mentioned the "affair" to hurt Ennis.  I don't think the old man was so much angry that Jack was gay than as he failed to bring Ennis up there to whip the ranch into shape.  Jack may have mentioned Randall to placate his father:  that he would actually bring someone up there, perhaps after promising to move Ennis up; a move that never happened. 

[Brown Eyes]

Jack had been to "Mexico" probably numerous times in the 20 years between 1963 and 1983, and probably had an ongoing dalliance with Randall - that fishing house on Lake Kemp came in handy. But, in the end, it was Ennis's shirt which was nestled in Jack's shirt, and in the closet scene in OMT's house, Ennis understood that in spite of Jack's wandering ways, it was Ennis that Jack loved, and vice versa.

I don't believe that Jack went to Mexico until after Ennis rejected him following Ennis's divorce.

It doesn't matter if he was dating men or women when he was on the rodeo circuit... at that point he didn't believe he was in a relationship with Ennis.  And had no real reason to think he'd ever see Ennis again.  To me anything that happened between 63 and 67 with Jack really doesn't have much to do with Ennis (other than those people were probably Ennis-substitutes in his mind).

And, I believe that Jack was faithful to Ennis until Ennis's divorce.  That's when Ennis blew it.

But, I do believe he had an affair with Randall.  I don't see it as anything worse than Ennis dating Cassie. 

[brokeplex]

1) Possibly.  Or perhaps OMT mentioned the "affair" to hurt Ennis. 

2) I don't think the old man was so much angry that Jack was gay than as he failed to bring Ennis up there to whip the ranch into shape. 

3) Jack may have mentioned Randall to placate his father:  that he would actually bring someone up there, perhaps after promising to move Ennis up; a move that never happened. 
 

1) And he couldn't know that he could "hurt" Ennis unless he understood 2 things: Jack had a close relationship with both Ennis and Jack. So, both OMT and Ennis knew that Jack had "affairs"

2) I agree completely with that practical aspect of OMT. He wouldn't have let Ennis in the door if he wasn't partially resigned to his son's activities. That doesn't mean that OMT was fighting for gay rights!   But he wasn't like Ennis's father - who seems to have been a probable murdering homophobe.

3) good point, that ties in with OMT's comment about how "none of Jacks ideas ever come to pass". one of the most poignant lines in the movie, to me that underneath the gruff laconic exterior, OMT had to have loved his son but didn't understand how to relate to him.

[Luvlylittlewing]

1) And he couldn't know that he could "hurt" Ennis unless he understood 2 things: Jack had a close relationship with both Ennis and Jack. So, both OMT and Ennis knew that Jack had "affairs"

Jack had a close relationship with both Ennis and Jack? I don't understand, Brokeplex.  How did OMT and Ennis know that Jack had affairs?  I believe there was an unspoken rule between the two.  Remember the Short leash?  Jack knew that Ennis insisted their relationship be exclusive, or both would be queer: a big no-no for Ennis. Ennis was a homophobic gay man who didn't want to be queer ("Boys like you!"), and Jack went along (or he allowed Ennis to think he went along) which is why he was so secretive about his "affairs."

2) I agree completely with that practical aspect of OMT. He wouldn't have let Ennis in the door if he wasn't partially resigned to his son's activities. That doesn't mean that OMT was fighting for gay rights!   But he wasn't like Ennis's father - who seems to have been a probable murdering homophobe.

Agreed

3) good point, that ties in with OMT's comment about how "none of Jacks ideas ever come to pass". one of the most poignant lines in the movie, to me that underneath the gruff laconic exterior, OMT had to have loved his son but didn't understand how to relate to him.

I agree with this, as well.  Man it feels good to talk about the movie again!

[Monika]

2) I agree completely with that practical aspect of OMT. He wouldn't have let Ennis in the door if he wasn't partially resigned to his son's activities. That doesn't mean that OMT was fighting for gay rights!   But he wasn't like Ennis's father - who seems to have been a probable murdering homophobe.

It could be denial. OMT knows, but doesn´t wanna know.