The Brokeback Mountain movie purposely did Jack as a whorl? Anniedid not at all?

[Monika]

But, I do believe he had an affair with Randall.  I don't see it as anything worse than Ennis dating Cassie. 

I guess why I react more strongly to Jack/Randall then Ennis/Cassie is that Cassie never is any real threath to Jack/Ennis. To me they are both clearly gay so the Ennis/Cassie relationship is clearly due to Ennis´s need to live a "normal" (which to him means heterosexual) life.

[Brown Eyes]

I guess why I react more strongly to Jack/Randall then Ennis/Cassie is that Cassie never is any real threath to Jack/Ennis. To me they are both clearly gay so the Ennis/Cassie relationship is clearly due to Ennis´s need to live a "normal" (which to him means heterosexual) life.

Cassie was certainly a threat to the relationship between Jack and Ennis... she was one more excuse Ennis used to keep Jack away.  After his divorce there was no real reason for him to try to build a relationship with anyone other than Jack.

And, Ennis's treatment of Cassie in and of itself, in and of itself was pretty poor... since all he was doing was using her to prop up a false image for himself.

I'm not saying that Jack's behavior was stellar.  But, Ennis behaved equally poorly.  And my point remains... that neither one of them would have cheated, in all likelihood, if Ennis had just said "yes" to building a real life and relationship with Jack.

In the form of relationship Ennis offered Jack as we see it (the painful meetings once or twice a year, demanding that Jack travel hundreds of miles each time, treating Jack like a dirty little secret, etc.), what was Ennis really giving Jack to commit to? 

To me the biggest threat to the relationship always was Ennis's hang ups.

[Front-Ranger]

... neither one of them would have cheated, in all likelihood, if Ennis had just said "yes" to building a real life and relationship with Jack.

Your words are so poignant friend. I would like to add that neither one of them would have strayed, if Wyoming and the World had just said "yes" to their building a life and relationship together.

[Monika]

Your words are so poignant friend. I would like to add that neither one of them would have strayed, if Wyoming and the World had just said "yes" to their building a life and relationship together.

I think you nailed it, Lee. Ennis said no because he never thought he could do otherwise. To have said yes would have been completely out of character.

[Brown Eyes]

Your words are so poignant friend. I would like to add that neither one of them would have strayed, if Wyoming and the World had just said "yes" to their building a life and relationship together.

I think you nailed it, Lee. Ennis said no because he never thought he could do otherwise. To have said yes would have been completely out of character.

It may have been out of character and, yes society provided a lot of obstacles to their relationship.  But IMHO, Jack was right.  They could have set up a life together.  They really could have.  I truly believe (more and more so as time as a Brokie passes) that Ennis was very short sighted about ways they could have made things work.
 
Staying apart didn't protect them from anything.  They were miserable and Jack died young anyway.   Nothing about the arrangement they set up based on Ennis's fears "worked."  Jack would have been willing to take the risk(s) that living together might involve.  He wasn't naive, but he was aware enough to realize that living happily... even for a little while... would be preferable to prolonged misery year after year.

Ennis's vision of a "normal" or "conventional" life not only ruined his relationship with Jack but it made a lot of other people miserable (the women who got dragged into this primarily).  Living apart didn't even keep their relationship secret.  By the end there's a long list of characters who know about their relationship (Aguirre, Lureen, Jack's parents, probably Junior had some hint of this...).

[Monika]

It may have been out of character and, yes society provided a lot of obstacles to their relationship.  But IMHO, Jack was right.  They could have set up a life together.  They really could have.  I truly believe (more and more so as time as a Brokie passes) that Ennis was very short sighted about ways they could have made things work.
 
Staying apart didn't protect them from anything.  They were miserable and Jack died young anyway.   Nothing about the arrangement they set up based on Ennis's fears "worked."  Jack would have been willing to take the risk(s) that living together might involve.  He wasn't naive, but he was aware enough to realize that living happily... even for a little while... would be preferable to prolonged misery year after year.

Ennis's vision of a "normal" or "conventional" life not only ruined his relationship with Jack but it made a lot of other people miserable (the women who got dragged into this primarily).  Living apart didn't even keep their relationship secret.  By the end there's a long list of characters who know about their relationship (Aguirre, Lureen, Jack's parents, probably Junior had some hint of this...).

You´re right in what you´re saying but to me it comes down to what the story is about. To me it´s not a story about a man who is so short-sighted that he destroys the only chance to happiness he has, but a story about how society (and indeed the Wyoming lanscape itself - it´s after all Annie Proulx we´re talking about) shapes its inhabitants. The impact is so strong that even gay people themelves are homophobes. Jack´s and Ennis´s destinies are decided from the get-go and through out the story they follow the paths that have been decided for them.
They are almost puppets on strings. I don´t think it´s Ennis´s vision of a conventional life that destroys his and Jack´s relationship. It´s society´s vision (represented via Ennis) of a convetional life that destroys it.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I thought about this muchly last night, forming a responce in my head, and I think the other posters have more or less reached the same conclusions as I have, but I'll put my 2 cents in :

I think Jack was probably somewhat experienced before he met Ennis. He certainly seemed to know what he wanted. Ennis on the other hand could hardly even admit to himself what he wanted. In their time on the mountain they had the idyllic situation to be close and when confronted with the end of the summer of 1963 it crumbled.

Jack basically had same sex attraction and when he found an opportunity to act on it he did. It is interesting to see the hope in his eyes in the Jimbo scene, it seems he is looking to Jimbo as some kind of stable gratifying situation like he had on the mountain with Ennis. Compare this with the Mexico scene, he is resigned to satisfying the need he has to be with a man, he has given up on affection, love whatever you want to call it and is ready to go off-in the dark to the nasty with a hustler.

And even in the trailhead parking lot, as Ennis drove away from him for the last time, Proulx gives us a rare incite into what he is thinking: the dozy embrace. It satisfied a "sexless hunger" being held by Ennis. He could have built something with someone which was more than sex, but with the restrictions he had on him, the time and place he lived, he took comfort where he could.

The look in Jack's eyes as he watched Ennis ride away, that quiet joy felt when you find a connection with another person. That's the true feeling for me, that and the cut away scene to the trail head parking lot, 20 years later, and his tired face portraying how thing turned out for him. Ennis had accused him of whoring around on him. It is a deep conflict to get the mind around. Ennis' way of demonstrating his love is to threaten to kill him for needing something he hardly ever got. Man, talk about dysfunction.

[Monika]

The look in Jack's eyes as he watched Ennis ride away, that quiet joy felt when you find a connection with another person. That's the true feeling for me, that and the cut away scene to the trail head parking lot, 20 years later, and his tired face portraying how thing turned out for him.

this is always when I start to cry like a baby. Those two shots, one following the other...kills me dead

[Brown Eyes]

You´re right in what you´re saying but to me it comes down to what the story is about. To me it´s not a story about a man who is so short-sighted that he destroys the only chance to happiness he has, but a story about how society (and indeed the Wyoming lanscape itself - it´s after all Annie Proulx we´re talking about) shapes its inhabitants. The impact is so strong that even gay people themelves are homophobes. Jack´s and Ennis´s destinies are decided from the get-go and through out the story they follow the paths that have been decided for them.
They are almost puppets on strings. I don´t think it´s Ennis´s vision of a conventional life that destroys his and Jack´s relationship. It´s society´s vision (represented via Ennis) of a convetional life that destroys it.

I agree with you too.  I think society (and the frequently related cruelty towards indiividuals and unreasonable conventions) plays a huge role in the tragedy that unfolds in BBM.  I certainly don't deny that.  

But, I also don't think Ennis or Jack are puppets on strings.  They each bear some personal and individual responsibility for their actions and decisions.  There is always the opportunity for individuals to rebel or push back against society.

To me it's a balancing act, between looking at what happened in terms of society's pressures and looking at what happened on personal and individual levels for both Ennis and Jack.  To me it's the personal focus that keeps BBM from becoming too polemical or even particularly "political."  

[Monika]

But, I also don't think Ennis or Jack are puppets on strings.  They each bear some personal and individual responsibility for their actions and decisions.  There is always the opportunity for individuals to rebel or push back against society.

I thought this over again, and you might be right. But it does seem to take a lot for them to go against society. Something like being alone together up on a mountain for an entire summer for example. 

But like the trailer said; there are places we can´t return.