Why Jack Quit Ennis

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

ORIGINAL POSTER’S NOTE:  This post is dedicated to dly64 in friendship and with my thanks.




I posted this little essay once before and it generated some good discussions.  Because of a different conversation dly64 and I were having, dly64 asked me my thoughts on this subject and so I decided I’d throw my opinion on the matter of “quitting” into the mix.

I wrote this long before I had read much about whether Jack “quit” Ennis.  Since then I have read more, and, of course, all of the discussion that the post originally generated.  So I have used that information to inform myself for this edited version.

A very important part of this post is the definition of “quit.”  This has caused more confusion, disagreement, and argument than I could ever have imagined.  Therefore, please take note that here, in my post, “quit” means “allow to go” or “set free” – it DOES NOT mean “stop loving” or “forget about.”  And so I submit to you, my BBBs, this edited version for your high-class entertainment.


Why Jack Quit Ennis


Many people seem to believe that Jack did not “quit” Ennis when, in fact, quitting Ennis was the only thing that Jack could do. Here’s why:

During the last campfire scene, Jack came as close as either of them ever did to saying “I love you” when he said “Tell you what. The truth is… sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it.” No verbal response from Ennis. Jack twice offered Ennis the chance to live together. Ennis turned him down. Jack saved their two shirts from the mountain. Jack initiated the reunion. Jack was the first to initiate tenderness between the two of them. Jack longingly asked Ennis whether he’d be back to the mountain the next year. Jack drove 14 hours 2-3 times a year to see Ennis.

Jack loved Ennis AND Jack realized it AND Jack accepted it AND Jack moved on it. Ennis certainly loved Jack, but he did not recognize it as “love,” he certainly did not accept it, and he, in fact, moved from it.

When they had their final fight, Ennis broke down and blamed Jack for being the way he was – not gay; rather, alone and drifting. Ennis was utterly confused, angry and tormented by his and their situations even though he kept it going and, deep down, wanted it to continue – so much so that he broke down, crying, and angrily swearing and attacking Jack. This is one piece of the pair of bookends that truly show us Ennis’ torment. The other bookend is his breakdown after Jack drove away after their initial time on the mountain ended. He was retching and this turned into anger. Partly he was kicking himself for letting Jack go, but he was also kicking himself for not being able to understand what had just happened on the mountain. He wasn’t thinking about this on the mountain, in the situation; rather, it all hit him after the initial summer ended abruptly and early and he found himself walking back into his stilted and fearful life with a marriage and wife just around the bend. That had been his plan before the mountain and he was terribly confused and angry as to how his plan could have taken such a twist. And yet all the time, underneath all of himself, he loved and craved Jack. But it was not in Ennis’ character to allow deep-down feelings to rise to the surface and for him to admit them.

In the final fight, when Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you,” Ennis responded “Then why don’t you? Why don’t you just let me be, huh?” Then Ennis broke down and blamed Jack and, in his truest moment of self-realization and openness, told Jack that “I’m nothin’. I’m nowhere.”

Now comes the moment of greatest revelation in the film. And it’s not Ennis’ realization. It’s Jack’s. Jack suddenly sees Ennis in a different light. He doesn’t see Ennis any longer as a guy who’s all too happy to get it a couple of times a year as long as he can keep his life going. Now he sees the true Ennis – a guy who’s doing this because something’s got hold of him… he can’t help himself… and he’s tormented by this dilemma in himself. Jack realizes that Ennis has never come to terms with his love or with their relationship or with himself, for that matter.

And it is here that Jack displays the greatest love shown in the movie. He quits Ennis. He does not quit Ennis for Jack’s sake, for Jack to be able to get it on with another man in a more open or convenient relationship. Jack quits Ennis for Ennis’ sake. Jack realizes that if Jack truly loves Ennis with all of his heart, then Jack must let Ennis be. Jack must be removed from the picture of Ennis’ life so that Ennis will no longer be tormented by something that he is simply not equipped to deal with – this is Ennis’ character. I’m sure that Jack knows that if Jack quits Ennis it will cause Ennis a lot of pain. But Jack also knows that the “quit” pain will ultimately be less disastrous to the man he loves (Ennis) than the “continue” pain is causing him. Ennis can cope with rejection and abandonment – on the surface -- as he has done since his parents died.  But he cannot deal with his inner struggles – at least not this one. It’s just not his character. And when Jack realizes this, he shows his truest love for Ennis by letting him be. Jack could not fix Ennis, so Jack had to let him stand. And Ennis cannot do this anymore with a relationship with Jack.

Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you."  And in the greatest irony of the film, Ennis showed Jack just how to do that -- one of Jack's wishes came to pass.

They part and the look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away says a thousand things. Most notably, to me, the look says “Goddamn you Ennis. If it was up to me we could have had it. But it wasn’t just up to me. And you couldn’t “stand” it. So I’ll give you what you say you want (even though he really doesn’t), that which I know you really need – I’ll let you be.” Jack knows he is saying good-bye to Ennis for the last time here. And not for himself, but for his love. This is the greatest sacrifice shown in the film.

Jack has just seen his lover crumple up into a ball of unmanageable emotions, fears, conflicts, and inner struggles.  And Jack knows that Ennis can neither fix it nor stand it.  The destructive effects of rural homophobia (the theme of the film) have taken their ultimate toll on Ennis.  Jack has only two realistic options: Let Ennis go or hold him captive.  It is because of Jack’s love for Ennis that he lets him go.  Otherwise, Jack never loved Ennis at all because his other option is to say: “Damn!  I just saw my lover crumple into a ball of despair.  Oh, well, I can still get a few high-altitude fucks out of him every year.”  Because neither of them can fix it and because Ennis cannot stand it, Jack must quit Ennis.

Jack goes back to Texas. At some point he takes up with Randall. So much so that after twenty years of telling his folks “me and Ennis,” he now tells them “me and this other guy.”  And Jack does this before Ennis’ postcard about Pine Creek in November.

Now, I do NOT mean to get into an entire discussion about HOW Jack communicated all of this to Ennis.  That’s grist for another thread some day.  Suffice it to say that I do not believe that Jack told all of this – including “quitting -- to Ennis after Ennis’ breakdown and before Ennis drove off.  If he had, Ennis’ final postcard, as written, would not fit.  Jack may have told Ennis “You have to decide by next November.”  Then, Ennis’ postcard could fit.  But then Jack’s telling his parents of the other guy wouldn’t fit.  Maybe Jack needed time to process all of this and intended to communicate it to Ennis somehow, somewhere later – before or at November.  I do not believe that Jack would have simply let Ennis go and not somehow let Ennis in on it.  That’s not Jack’s character.  I also believe that since Jack loved Ennis so much, Jack would have succeeded in letting Ennis be, even though it would have wrenched Jack’s guts out for the rest of his life.

But as for Ennis, even after the final scenes with Jack, Ennis still had not changed. He didn’t send a postcard saying “OK, let’s set up housekeepin’ together.” It was just another invite – initiated this time by a guy who thought he may have lost Jack forever by his words and actions during the final scenes of the two of them. This being much like when he thought that Jack wasn’t contacting Ennis for four years after the mountain because Ennis thought maybe Jack wouldn’t forgive Ennis for punching Jack.

I do believe that Ennis finally figured out that Jack loved Ennis – but it took a bit of doing. In the bus station, Ennis told Cassie “I was probably no fun anyways, was I?”  (Harkening back to Ennis’ comment to Jack in the final lake scene about “a good time.”)  And she informed him that “Ennis, girls don’t fall in love with fun” – preceded by a ‘huh’ that drips with “I can’t believe you just said that. Are you that foolish?” Here, Ennis realizes that his times with Jack were not just fun and that Jack did not just fall in love with fun. Ennis looks as if he’s thinking, “Wow! Jack didn’t fall in love with fun, Jack fell in love with me.”

Deep down in an area that Ennis doesn’t communicate with, Ennis loved Jack. But on the surface – which is where Ennis (island) del Mar (of the sea) lives – it was all just fun – it was a “thing” that grabbed him – at least, this is how Ennis rationalized it to himself. In the final scene between Jack and Ennis, as the camera pans from Jack’s right to his left, and Jack is, presumably, weighing Ennis, Ennis says “We had a good time that year, didn’t we?” Ennis would only allow himself to believe that his dalliances with Jack were just fun, like going out hunting, fishing, or camping, with any other buddy, except that in Jack’s case, “something grabs hold of us.” But Cassie made Ennis realize on the surface, where Ennis lives, that Jack fell in love with Ennis.

Note also that when Junior tells Ennis she’s getting married, he doesn’t respond with the usual “Do you love him?” – as most fathers would. Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis (thanks also to the shirts).

And so we end our story of Ennis del Mar at a closet, with a postcard and the two shirts. He has carefully arranged his memories of Jack and of Brokeback Mountain. He keeps the picture of Brokeback hanging straight. He snaps a button.  When the shirts were in Jack’s closet, Jack’s shirt was on top of Ennis’ shirt. Jack had his arms around Ennis, comforting him. Now, in probably his only act of true acknowledgement that what he felt for Jack was love, Ennis has hung the shirts with Ennis’ arms wrapped around Jack, holding him forever.

[Daphne7661]

Oh My, ruthlesslyunsentimental, thank you for that post.  I am .... speechless.  I have watched this film over and over and over again.  When I was first watching it, I could not bear to look at Jack's face in the final lake scene as he watched Ennis drive away (especially after seeing the loving look on his face as he watched Ennis leave on horseback in the flashback scene) so I would always stop the DVD or fast forward or rewind it or go to another scene where Jack and Ennis were together and happy.   

As time went on, and multiple viewings later, I found I could watch older Jack's face in that scene, but still with trepidation and tears.

After reading your post about how Jack "quit" Ennis, I must tell you that I wanted to not believe what you wrote.  I needed to believe that Jack would never "leave" Ennis or give up on Ennis, but you have explained it all beautifully to the point where I don't blame either of them.  I used to get so mad at Ennis for pushing Jack away all the time, and I counted on Jack to keep their love alive, even when I knew it was hurting Jack at every turn.  And because I couldn't come to grips with these realities, I had a terrible time understanding why Jack's father would say that Jack was gonna bring another fella up to the ranch, but I had no reason not to believe Jack's father that Jack said this.  He couldn't have made it up.

Explaining as you did how Ennis could not even come close to understanding his feelings, let alone deal with them, and by showing that Jack "quit" Ennis for Ennis' sake, I now can accept that scenario and still believe in their love for each other (even if it took Jack's death for Ennis to truly realize "his" love for Jack).

Now it all fits...  And, instead of my being mad at Jack (which I couldn't deal with) for even thinking about Randall, I love Jack even more for having loved Ennis in the most unselfish way possible.

I will watch the film now with a greater understanding of the true love story it is....

Thank you!

Daphne7661

[JT]

Wow!, ruthlesslyunsentimental, thank you for posting this.  It is so true.  Remember that old saying about if you love someone, you have to let them go free and if they come back, they're yours and if not, they never were?  I think Jack was doing just that.  It showed the depth of Jack's love for Ennis, not just about sex and fun, but he wanted to be part of Ennis but didn't want to hurt Ennis either.  So for that, he let him go.  If poor Jack lived long enough, he would know that Ennis came back, twice, the "Pine creek letter" and at the end when Ennis brought the two shirts back to his trailer.  If Ennis never loved Jack, I don't think he would bring the shirts back.  That there to me is true love, that was being torn up be fear.

[Jeff Wrangler]

A beautiful and perceptive essay, "ruthlessly." Thank you. I think I need to save the text somewhere.

A long time ago I had myself somewhat sorrowfully concluded that the look on Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away after the confrontation at the lake did, indeed, mean that Jack had decided to "quit" Ennis--and I have always understood that "quit" did NOT mean "stop loving." 

My own understanding grew more out of trying to make sense of the "ranch neighbor from Texas" business that John Twist tells Ennis about. I had concluded that Jack had finally concluded that, as much as he loved Ennis, Ennis was never going to change, and it was time Jack himself moved on. My understanding is that human motivation is rarely monolithic, so I'm seeing your perception of what Jack does for Ennis as the companion to my own earlier conclusion.

Perhaps even more importantly, in a broader sense, I think in your analysis of Ennis here you've touched on an important and possibly insurmountable problem with homophobia. It appears to me that so many homophobes just don't "get" the reality of the possiblity of real, genuine love between two persons of the same gender--more or less what I understand you to be saying about Ennis. "They"--homophobes--just like Ennis--think it's all about sex. And it isn't. And Ennis comes to understand that only when it's too late for him and Jack.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

After reading your post about how Jack "quit" Ennis, I must tell you that I wanted to not believe what you wrote.  …  Explaining as you did how Ennis could not even come close to understanding his feelings, let alone deal with them, and by showing that Jack "quit" Ennis for Ennis' sake, …

Well, my goodness gracious!  What a wonderful way of saying all you said.  Thank you and thank you again.  The first thanks is for your nice words to me and the second thanks is thank you for getting it.  Whether people agree or disagree with me is no big deal.  But I truly appreciate it when someone takes the time to write as you did, showing that they really understood what I was saying – again, agree or disagree.

When I think of Ennis’ growing fears and paranoia and Jack’s growing disillusionment, all wrapped up in the love they obviously have for each other, the whole final lake scene makes total sense to me.  Although I wish it wouldn’t have been necessary, it was.  Like everyone else, I would love to think that had Jack lived Ennis would have come around.  But I have to be honest – it’s just too big a leap.  A whole lifetime of fears, paranoia, self-doubt, self-loathing all overcome?  Just for a happy ending?  I dunno.

And, instead of my being mad at Jack (which I couldn't deal with) for even thinking about Randall, I love Jack even more for having loved Ennis in the most unselfish way possible.

This is the part hardly anyone else has ever walked away with.  It really is “Jack,” isn’t it?

When I was first watching it, I could not bear to look at Jack's face in the final lake scene as he watched Ennis drive away (especially after seeing the loving look on his face as he watched Ennis leave on horseback in the flashback scene) so I would always stop the DVD or fast forward or rewind it or go to another scene where Jack and Ennis were together and happy.

Wanna know what I do?  I’ve always believed that the dozy embrace flashback scene shows us the moment that Jack actually truly realized that he had fallen in love with Ennis – as opposed to infatuation, puppy love, etc.  And, I’ve always felt that the dozy embrace happened just before Ennis rode off to spend the night in the pup tent, waking to the snow the next morning.

So, when I watch the film, sometimes right after the untangling of the sheep and they ride off, Jack playing his harmonica, I stop the DVD, jump to the dozy embrace, and then jump back to Ennis waking up with the snow -- in other words, I put it where I believe it occurred.  Then I continue to watch the rest of the film, keeping the dozy embrace as a flashback in the final lake scene.  Boy!  It REALLY becomes poignant then.

Once again, thanks!

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Wow!, ruthlesslyunsentimental, thank you for posting this.  It is so true.  Remember that old saying about if you love someone, you have to let them go free and if they come back, they're yours and if not, they never were?  I think Jack was doing just that.  It showed the depth of Jack's love for Ennis, not just about sex and fun, but he wanted to be part of Ennis but didn't want to hurt Ennis either.  So for that, he let him go.  If poor Jack lived long enough, he would know that Ennis came back, twice, the "Pine creek letter" and at the end when Ennis brought the two shirts back to his trailer.  If Ennis never loved Jack, I don't think he would bring the shirts back.  That there to me is true love, that was being torn up be fear.

Wow!  Right back at'cha!  You've captured another layer of this that is wonderful.  I believe Jack showed his greatest love for Ennis by not holding him captive to inner conflicts.  And I've always believed that Ennis showed his love most with the shirts.  But you've said it so well.  Thanks!

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Wow!  To you too, Jeff Wrangler.  You’ve captured even more of it than I.

My own understanding grew more out of trying to make sense of the "ranch neighbor from Texas" business that John Twist tells Ennis about. I had concluded that Jack had finally concluded that, as much as he loved Ennis, Ennis was never going to change, and it was time Jack himself moved on. My understanding is that human motivation is rarely monolithic, so I'm seeing your perception of what Jack does for Ennis as the companion to my own earlier conclusion.

As I said before, I never have a problem with two (or more) “takes” on the same thing at the same time.  There’s always a lot going on with our boys.  That’s why this film is a masterpiece.

"They"--homophobes--just like Ennis--think it's all about sex. And it isn't. And Ennis comes to understand that only when it's too late for him and Jack.

Very true.

I should add a bit of explanation here for future readers of this thread.  I want to make it clear that I believe that Ennis always loved Jack – I believe he fell in love with Jack in the SNIT when he melted away from all of his fears and loneliness into Jack’s arms of comfort.  The distinction I make about Ennis’ love is that because of the destructive effects of his internalized homophobia, he was not able to come to grips with it and call it “love” lest he be “queer” and, in a really screwed up way, deserving of death.

Thanks again!

[jpwagoneer1964]

When I think of Ennis’ growing fears and paranoia and Jack’s growing disillusionment, all wrapped up in the love they obviously have for each other, the whole final lake scene makes total sense to me.  Although I wish it wouldn’t have been necessary, it was.  Like everyone else, I would love to think that had Jack lived Ennis would have come around.  But I have to be honest – it’s just too big a leap.  A whole lifetime of fears, paranoia, self-doubt, self-loathing all overcome?  Just for a happy ending?  I dunno.

 

Wanna know what I do?  I’ve always believed that the dozy embrace flashback scene shows us the moment that Jack actually truly realized that he had fallen in love with Ennis – as opposed to infatuation, puppy love, etc.  And, I’ve always felt that the dozy embrace happened just before Ennis rode off to spend the night in the pup tent, waking to the snow the next morning.

 
 

You essay does make me feel much better about the reason Jack would quit Ennis, because he loved him that much and wanted the best for him. If there was commucation between Jack and Ennis between the lake and Jack death about ending the relationship and giving Ennis the choice, the film tells us that his answer was affirmitive,(with the postcard) to at least keep on as before and maybe with less responsabilities in his future, moving foward with Jack. I have always felt that a big reason that Ennis would not and should not have a life with Jack in his younger years his becuse he does not want to leave his girls or Alma and does not want Jack to do the same.

I agree with you about the timing of the dosy embrace. I do think Jack fell in love with Ennis before either of the tent scenes.

[ednbarby]

Darn you, Ruthlessly, you just made me cry at my desk with these words:

Jack realizes that if Jack truly loves Ennis with all of his heart, then Jack must let Ennis be. Jack must be removed from the picture of Ennis’ life so that Ennis will no longer be tormented by something that he is simply not equipped to deal with

I've always thought Jack "quit" Ennis that day, too, in the same sense as you've described it.  Not because he (Jack) can't stand it anymore, but because he realizes Ennis can't, and that deals his heart the final blow.

I don't think Jack would have seen Ennis again.  Had he not been killed, I think he would have sent a postcard back in answer to Ennis' last one saying something along the lines of "Sorry, Friend, I can't make it in November after all" and would have left it at that.  If Ennis wanted to know why, let him call him or come looking for him and he'd tell him.  But I think he'd think it'd hurt both of them too much to see each other again only to officially break up.  I don't see him not doing it face to face as cowardly - I see it as being just as unselfish as deciding to let him be in the first place.  The selfish thing would be to see him again and try to force yet another confrontation and make an ultimatum.

Aw, Jack.  You really were too damn special to be buried in the family plot.  Or anywhere else for that matter.

[Daphne7661]

Aw, Jack.  You really were too damn special to be buried in the family plot.  Or anywhere else for that matter.

Oh No ... I'm crying AGAIN!!!!

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Darn you, Ruthlessly, you just made me cry at my desk …

Well, gosh darn it… you just did it to me!


I was really worried about posting this because of all the negative response I’ve gotten in the past about my thoughts on this topic.  But, wow!  You take it a bit further…

I don't think Jack would have seen Ennis again.  Had he not been killed, I think he would have sent a postcard back in answer to Ennis' last one saying something along the lines of "Sorry, Friend, I can't make it in November after all" and would have left it at that.  If Ennis wanted to know why, let him call him or come looking for him and he'd tell him.  But I think he'd think it'd hurt both of them too much to see each other again only to officially break up.  I don't see him not doing it face to face as cowardly - I see it as being just as unselfish as deciding to let him be in the first place.  The selfish thing would be to see him again and try to force yet another confrontation and make an ultimatum.

And I can totally see this!  It sure does make sense.  But, gosh… you’re ruthlessly … correct?

Aw, Jack.  You really were too damn special to be buried in the family plot.  Or anywhere else for that matter.

Now you stop it!


        

[serious crayons]

I don't think Jack would have seen Ennis again.  Had he not been killed, I think he would have sent a postcard back in answer to Ennis' last one saying something along the lines of "Sorry, Friend, I can't make it in November after all" and would have left it at that.  If Ennis wanted to know why, let him call him or come looking for him and he'd tell him.  But I think he'd think it'd hurt both of them too much to see each other again only to officially break up.

 

Hunh?!

I have (much) more to say about Ruthlessly's post and the entire concept, but I really should be concentrating on my so-called paid employment now, so I'll wait ... But Barb! You shocked me so much I have to abandon work for a moment. Are you saying Jack would just leave Ennis wondering what's going on until Ennis ran into Jack eating pie in a bus station?!

Sure, it would hurt to break up in person. But doesn't it always? Don't people just have to go through with anyway? Isn't breaking up hard to do?

[Amber]

I thank you - you put into words what I think.  I've equated the lake scene with the "If you love someone you must set them free" but you put into much better words.  The first dozen times I watched the movie I refused to believe that Jack would quit Ennis - but the more I watched and fell into the story the more I realized that, that is exactly what he did.  The look on his face and in his eyes after the flashback are what really cement it for me.  His eyes have always spoke volumes to me in that scene - always loss and extreme longing/love. 

A long time ago I had myself somewhat sorrowfully concluded that the look on Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away after the confrontation at the lake did, indeed, mean that Jack had decided to "quit" Ennis--and I have always understood that "quit" did NOT mean "stop loving." 

 

EXACTLY!  He "quit" him only because he loved him.

It is my guess however (guess because we'll never know) that Jack "quit" Ennis only in that he wasn't going to make all of the moves anymore and that if Ennis one day miraculously decided that he did want a life with Jack and pursued it, Jack would have agreed.

How many times have we "quit" friends/relationships because we were sick of making all of the phone calls, all of the plans and handling all of the details.  And how many times have we reconciled when the other half of the relationship came to their senses and realized how important the relationship is to them and finally made an effort. 

That's kind of my added spin to this I guess.  I agree that Jack "quit" Ennis because he loved him so much he couldn't stand to see him suffer anymore and he knew it was what needed to happen.  I also think that there was a degree of it though that was Jack protecting himself from putting anymore effort into something that wasn't getting reciprocated the way he wanted it to be.  He was stepping back for Ennis's sake and perhaps hoping that Ennis would realize what he had lost and perhaps do something about it.  Ennis was the only true love of Jack's life - I just can't imagine Jack saying "no" if Ennis finally came around and decided that he wanted a life with Jack.  However, if Ennis never made any moves and never pursued Jack again - Jack would have let things be.

Hope this made some sense! 

[ednbarby]

Hunh?!

I have (much) more to say about Ruthlessly's post and the entire concept, but I really should be concentrating on my so-called paid employment now, so I'll wait ... But Barb! You shocked me so much I have to abandon work for a moment. Are you saying Jack would just leave Ennis wondering what's going on until Ennis ran into Jack eating pie in a bus station?!

Sure, it would hurt to break up in person. But doesn't it always? Don't people just have to go through with anyway? Isn't breaking up hard to do?

That look in his eyes as he watches Ennis drive away tells me that he did break up with him in his own heart and mind.  Whenever I've tried to imagine what their time in November would have been like had Jack not been killed, I've always come away feeling that Ennis wouldn't have come far enough to do it right, so to speak.  No way would he have an open relationship with Jack like Jack wanted.  The most he would have done would have been to agree to move a little closer and maybe to meet up more often and in places Jack suggested.  I just can't see Ennis ever agreeing to live together.  Which is not to say I don't want to see that - of course I do.  But I just can't.

So, knowing this, and realizing he has to let Ennis go to free Ennis from his torment, how would Jack meet with him one last time to tell him all this?  If he were going to do it face to face, I don't see him waiting until November, first of all.  So maybe after getting that last post card from Ennis, he would call him (it's not like Alma's gonna answer after all) and tell him they have to meet somewhere - not at a campsite, not in the mountains - maybe at Ennis' house/trailer?  I don't know.  And they have to talk.  Hell, I could even see Ennis' postcard saying it still looks like November is the soonest he can make it as being an answer to an interim one from Jack saying "We got to meet sooner - just for an hour or two - to talk.  Can we do that sometime?  I'll come to you."

Again, Jack's not wanting to have the usual kind of reunion with Ennis, in my mind, doesn't make Jack a coward.  It makes him a hero.  Because he knows that kind of get-together will only tear Ennis apart more.  Ennis would have to drive God knows how far back to his lonely old house or trailer having just been told by Jack that they can never see each other again.  If Jack did tell him face to face, I also think he would be cruel to be kind, again, and would tell Ennis he's met someone else and wants to live with him.  Period.  Clean break.  It's the only way.

Am I truly the ruthless one?  Nah.  I've been there is all, to a much lesser extent.  He still thinks I broke up with him, even though it was he who had been breaking up with me a little bit at a time from the moment we met.  If that helps get him through, power to it, I guess.  I can't make him face the truth - that's on him.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Are you saying Jack would just leave Ennis wondering what's going on until Ennis ran into Jack eating pie in a bus station?!

LOL!  This one goes in the display case!


Sorry.  I know your intent wasn't to be flippant, but it was funny!

As always, I look forward to your input here.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

… and that if Ennis one day miraculously decided that he did want a life with Jack and pursued it, Jack would have agreed.

Here’s a sticky question… let’s say Jack “quit” Ennis.  And Jack moved up to Lightning Flat with the other fella.  Now, it’s five years later.  Ennis pays a call to say he’s ready, willing, and able.  Does Jack dump Randall?  Did Jack just accept Randall as a warm body?  Or did Jack make/allow himself to fall in love with Randall?  We’ve all heard that the first love is the strongest.  (I question this, though.)  So even if we all agree that any love that Jack would have for Randall is not as strong as the love Jack had for Ennis, would Jack dump Randall and his love for Randall after, let’s say, five years of living together?  I don’t want this to go the fan fiction route; rather, just a good discussion of our views of Jack’s and Ennis’ characters.

I also think that there was a degree of it though that was Jack protecting himself from putting anymore effort into something that wasn't getting reciprocated the way he wanted it to be.

Thus, his comment:  “I wish I knew how to quit you.”


Thanks for your input!

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

That look in his eyes as he watches Ennis drive away … I just can't see Ennis ever agreeing to live together.

I agree.   

… and realizing he has to let Ennis go to free Ennis from his torment …

Well put.

… how would Jack meet with him one last time to tell him all this?

I think everything you said in this paragraph is wholly plausible.  But, can you just imagine the scene in Ennis’ trailer after Jack told Ennis it had to be over?  I think Ennis would be stunned.  Would he break down?  Would he lash out?  Would he beg?  Argh!


Speaking of Ennis’ reaction… just how would Ennis react to a postcard from Jack saying:

"We got to meet sooner - just for an hour or two - to talk.  Can we do that sometime?  I'll come to you."

Every wheel in his head would be spinning so fast…

Ennis would have to drive God knows how far back to his lonely old house or trailer having just been told by Jack that they can never see each other again.  If Jack did tell him face to face, I also think he would be cruel to be kind, again, and would tell Ennis he's met someone else and wants to live with him.  Period.  Clean break.  It's the only way.

Shouldn’t there be a smiley for “sobbing uncontrollably?”

Am I truly the ruthless one?

Join the club.  Are you closer to Wyoming or Texas?  If Wyoming, we meet the first Wednesday of every month at Don Wroe’s cabin.  If Texas, we get together at Roy Taylor’s every other Saturday – there’s a lot more “ruthlesslys” in Texas.  But as a newcomer, you’ll have to bring the apple pie or a nice elk.

[serious crayons]

Would he break down?  Would he lash out?  Would he beg?  Argh!

No. The scene would echo the ones when they say goodbye in Signal and then Ennis goes into the alley.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Tell you what, I was just reading through the posts on this thread since my own brief response of this morning, when suddenly this popped into my head:

Are we making assumptions about Randall? Not just on this thread, but elsewhere?

What if Jack was wrong about "the ranch neighbor"? What if Randall turned out  to be no more willing to ranch up with Jack than Ennis was?

Just because Randall came on to Jack doesn't necessarily mean he would have turned out to be "husband material."

What if all Randall wanted from Jack was ... sex?

 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

No. The scene would echo the ones when they say goodbye in Signal and then Ennis goes into the alley.

Hadn't even thought of this.  Now THIS is sad!

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

What if Randall turned out  to be no more willing to ranch up with Jack than Ennis was?

I have thought of this once or twice before.  We really don't know.  Yes, we're making assumptions.

What if all Randall wanted from Jack was ... sex?

The bastard!

[dly64]

ORIGINAL POSTER’S NOTE:  This post is dedicated to dly64 in friendship and with my thanks.

Thank you! You certainly have provided a lot to discuss (which you know I enjoy!!)   

During the last campfire scene, Jack came as close as either of them ever did to saying “I love you” when he said “Tell you what. The truth is… sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it.” No verbal response from Ennis. Jack twice offered Ennis the chance to live together. Ennis turned him down. Jack saved their two shirts from the mountain. Jack initiated the reunion. Jack was the first to initiate tenderness between the two of them. Jack longingly asked Ennis whether he’d be back to the mountain the next year. Jack drove 14 hours 2-3 times a year to see Ennis.

You know that I am usually in Jack’s camp because I understand his POV – much more than Ennis’. However, I want to give Ennis some credit here. When Jack says, “I miss you so much …”, we don’t see Ennis saying anything. What we do see is Ennis’ arm around Jack … not the other way around. We can only surmise what occurred between the time Jack shared about missing Ennis through TS3.  I like to think it was similar to TS2, but the other way around. And yes, Jack was the one to initiated almost everything … including the reunion. However, it was Ennis who initiated the kiss.  I had reached the conclusion, through all of our discussions, that I had been too hard on Ennis.

Jack loved Ennis AND Jack realized it AND Jack accepted it AND Jack moved on it. Ennis certainly loved Jack, but he did not recognize it as “love,” he certainly did not accept it, and he, in fact, moved from it.

I agree with most of this except for Ennis moving away from loving Jack (let me know if I am misunderstanding you). Certainly Jack was willing to embrace love. Ennis had a lot of fear. IMO, even though Ennis didn’t recognize his feelings for Jack as love … he knew that Jack understood him in a way no one else could. He could also be himself around Jack. There were no pretenses. Ennis certainly wasn’t hiding anything (with Jack). I think he knew, in his heart of hearts, that he didn’t want a life without Jack.

When they had their final fight, Ennis broke down and blamed Jack for being the way he was – not gay; rather, alone and drifting. Ennis was utterly confused, angry and tormented by his and their situations even though he kept it going and, deep down, wanted it to continue – so much so that he broke down, crying, and angrily swearing and attacking Jack. This is one piece of the pair of bookends that truly show us Ennis’ torment. The other bookend is his breakdown after Jack drove away after their initial time on the mountain ended. He was retching and this turned into anger. Partly he was kicking himself for letting Jack go, but he was also kicking himself for not being able to understand what had just happened on the mountain. He wasn’t thinking about this on the mountain, in the situation; rather, it all hit him after the initial summer ended abruptly and early and he found himself walking back into his stilted and fearful life with a marriage and wife just around the bend. That had been his plan before the mountain and he was terribly confused and angry as to how his plan could have taken such a twist. And yet all the time, underneath all of himself, he loved and craved Jack. But it was not in Ennis’ character to allow deep-down feelings to rise to the surface and for him to admit them.

We agree on most of this. We have previously talked about the bookends of their relationship post mountain:

•   Ennis breaking down when Jack leaves and then, at the lake scene, breaking down again at the thought of Jack leaving (but this time in Jack’s arms).
•   At the time of their reunion … Ennis says, “If you can’t fix it, you gotta stand it. Jack asks how long. Ennis replies, “As long as we can ride it …there ain’t no reins on this one.”  Then, at the lake scene, Jack says (in one of my favorite lines that we have already shared here and numerous times elsewhere), “Tell you what … the truth is … sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it.” Lastly, it is Ennis, breaking down in Jack’s arms, “Jack, I can’t stand this anymore.”

In the final fight, when Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you,” Ennis responded “Then why don’t you? Why don’t you just let me be, huh?” Then Ennis broke down and blamed Jack and, in his truest moment of self-realization and openness, told Jack that “I’m nothin’. I’m nowhere.”

Now comes the moment of greatest revelation in the film. And it’s not Ennis’ realization. It’s Jack’s. Jack suddenly sees Ennis in a different light. He doesn’t see Ennis any longer as a guy who’s all too happy to get it a couple of times a year as long as he can keep his life going. Now he sees the true Ennis – a guy who’s doing this because something’s got hold of him… he can’t help himself… and he’s tormented by this dilemma in himself. Jack realizes that Ennis has never come to terms with his love or with their relationship or with himself, for that matter.

This is where our opinions diverge. There may be a revelation here, but not on Jack’s part … on Ennis’. I don’t think Jack ever thought that Ennis wanted to see him for the “high altitude f—ks once or twice a year.” Jack understood Ennis’ fear. This was obvious to Jack after Ennis’ divorce. Of course Jack was devastated and frustrated when, yet again, Ennis turned him away. But, IMO, Jack knew that Ennis was loyal to him (and yes, that Ennis loved him). Ennis’ motivation to see Jack was not simply to have a good time, but to be with the one person who could see through all of his internal fears and struggles. What Ennis realizes at the time of their fight, is that this “thing” he was feeling was, indeed, love. Ultimately it was too late. But, when Ennis breaks down into Jack’s arms, he knows this is it …. Jack is his one-in-a-lifetime love.

And it is here that Jack displays the greatest love shown in the movie. He quits Ennis. He does not quit Ennis for Jack’s sake, for Jack to be able to get it on with another man in a more open or convenient relationship. Jack quits Ennis for Ennis’ sake. Jack realizes that if Jack truly loves Ennis with all of his heart, then Jack must let Ennis be. Jack must be removed from the picture of Ennis’ life so that Ennis will no longer be tormented by something that he is simply not equipped to deal with – this is Ennis’ character. I’m sure that Jack knows that if Jack quits Ennis it will cause Ennis a lot of pain. But Jack also knows that the “quit” pain will ultimately be less disastrous to the man he loves (Ennis) than the “continue” pain is causing him. Ennis can cope with rejection and abandonment – on the surface -- as he has done since his parents died.  But he cannot deal with his inner struggles – at least not this one. It’s just not his character. And when Jack realizes this, he shows his truest love for Ennis by letting him be. Jack could not fix Ennis, so Jack had to let him stand. And Ennis cannot do this anymore with a relationship with Jack.

Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you."  And in the greatest irony of the film, Ennis showed Jack just how to do that -- one of Jack's wishes came to pass.

They part and the look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away says a thousand things. Most notably, to me, the look says “Goddamn you Ennis. If it was up to me we could have had it. But it wasn’t just up to me. And you couldn’t “stand” it. So I’ll give you what you say you want (even though he really doesn’t), that which I know you really need – I’ll let you be.” Jack knows he is saying good-bye to Ennis for the last time here. And not for himself, but for his love. This is the greatest sacrifice shown in the film.

Jack has just seen his lover crumple up into a ball of unmanageable emotions, fears, conflicts, and inner struggles.  And Jack knows that Ennis can neither fix it nor stand it.  The destructive effects of rural homophobia (the theme of the film) have taken their ultimate toll on Ennis.  Jack has only two realistic options: Let Ennis go or hold him captive.  It is because of Jack’s love for Ennis that he lets him go.  Otherwise, Jack never loved Ennis at all because his other option is to say: “Damn!  I just saw my lover crumple into a ball of despair.  Oh, well, I can still get a few high-altitude fucks out of him every year.”  Because neither of them can fix it and because Ennis cannot stand it, Jack must quit Ennis.

This is why I wanted us to discuss if Jack was going to “quit” Ennis or vice versa. I honestly do not know the answer and I think you present a good argument. I am not convinced that Jack could do it. We know that Ennis was not ready to give up Jack (as evidenced by his initiating the November trip). However, when Ennis drives away, the look on Jack’s face indicates to me that he knows he will never see his love again. Whether or not that means he was going to give him up or that he had a premonition/ feeling this was the end … I don’t know.

Jack goes back to Texas. At some point he takes up with Randall. So much so that after twenty years of telling his folks “me and Ennis,” he now tells them “me and this other guy.”  And Jack does this before Ennis’ postcard about Pine Creek in November.

Now, I do NOT mean to get into an entire discussion about HOW Jack communicated all of this to Ennis.  That’s grist for another thread some day.  Suffice it to say that I do not believe that Jack told all of this – including “quitting -- to Ennis after Ennis’ breakdown and before Ennis drove off.  If he had, Ennis’ final postcard, as written, would not fit.  Jack may have told Ennis “You have to decide by next November.”  Then, Ennis’ postcard could fit.  But then Jack’s telling his parents of the other guy wouldn’t fit.  Maybe Jack needed time to process all of this and intended to communicate it to Ennis somehow, somewhere later – before or at November.  I do not believe that Jack would have simply let Ennis go and not somehow let Ennis in on it.  That’s not Jack’s character.  I also believe that since Jack loved Ennis so much, Jack would have succeeded in letting Ennis be, even though it would have wrenched Jack’s guts out for the rest of his life.

This is when what I read influences what I think. Both the short story and screenplay say:

“And then …. They hug one another, a fierce desperate embrace --- managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

After the dozy embrace, the screenplay says:

“…. as Jack, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives.”

Based on both of these statements, I don’t think Jack could have ever given up Ennis. Even if Jack would have shacked up with Randall, I still believe that he would have continued his “fishing trips” with Ennis. It is not that Jack was being selfish in staying with Ennis.  They were just too enmeshed. The one was not complete without the other.

But as for Ennis, even after the final scenes with Jack, Ennis still had not changed. He didn’t send a postcard saying “OK, let’s set up housekeepin’ together.” It was just another invite – initiated this time by a guy who thought he may have lost Jack forever by his words and actions during the final scenes of the two of them. This being much like when he thought that Jack wasn’t contacting Ennis for four years after the mountain because Ennis thought maybe Jack wouldn’t forgive Ennis for punching Jack.

I do believe that Ennis finally figured out that Jack loved Ennis – but it took a bit of doing. In the bus station, Ennis told Cassie “I was probably no fun anyways, was I?”  (Harkening back to Ennis’ comment to Jack in the final lake scene about “a good time.”)  And she informed him that “Ennis, girls don’t fall in love with fun” – preceded by a ‘huh’ that drips with “I can’t believe you just said that. Are you that foolish?” Here, Ennis realizes that his times with Jack were not just fun and that Jack did not just fall in love with fun. Ennis looks as if he’s thinking, “Wow! Jack didn’t fall in love with fun, Jack fell in love with me.”
Deep down in an area that Ennis doesn’t communicate with, Ennis loved Jack. But on the surface – which is where Ennis (island) del Mar (of the sea) lives – it was all just fun – it was a “thing” that grabbed him – at least, this is how Ennis rationalized it to himself. In the final scene between Jack and Ennis, as the camera pans from Jack’s right to his left, and Jack is, presumably, weighing Ennis, Ennis says “We had a good time that year, didn’t we?” Ennis would only allow himself to believe that his dalliances with Jack were just fun, like going out hunting, fishing, or camping, with any other buddy, except that in Jack’s case, “something grabs hold of us.” But Cassie made Ennis realize on the surface, where Ennis lives, that Jack fell in love with Ennis.

You are correct that Ennis had not changed. He still was not planning on having the “sweet life” that Jack wanted. His fears and homophobia were entrenched too deeply. However, as stated above, after their argument  …. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

When Ennis realized he loved Jack, IMO, was when he broke down into Jack’s arms. He knew at that moment that Jack loved him, too. I don’t think Ennis or Jack saw their relationship as one for “just having fun” … if that would have been the case, they would have ended it long ago. Keep in mind when Jack drove 14 hours after Ennis’ divorce …. Ennis was fully aware that Jack had just been devastated. Ennis also knew, when they were together for the last time, that Jack missed Ennis so much he could hardly handle it. It wasn’t that they were getting together to pass the time, ride horses, and f--k.  They were consistently drawn to each other by a deeper passion. 

Note also that when Junior tells Ennis she’s getting married, he doesn’t respond with the usual “Do you love him?” – as most fathers would. Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis (thanks also to the shirts).

And so we end our story of Ennis del Mar at a closet, with a postcard and the two shirts. He has carefully arranged his memories of Jack and of Brokeback Mountain. He keeps the picture of Brokeback hanging straight. He snaps a button.  When the shirts were in Jack’s closet, Jack’s shirt was on top of Ennis’ shirt. Jack had his arms around Ennis, comforting him. Now, in probably his only act of true acknowledgement that what he felt for Jack was love, Ennis has hung the shirts with Ennis’ arms wrapped around Jack, holding him forever.

These two points … we are on the same page.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

You certainly have provided a lot to discuss (which you know I enjoy!!)

And so have you in your reply (which you know **I** enjoy)!

I agree with most of this except for Ennis moving away from loving Jack (let me know if I am misunderstanding you). Certainly Jack was willing to embrace love. Ennis had a lot of fear. IMO, even though Ennis didn’t recognize his feelings for Jack as love … he knew that Jack understood him in a way no one else could. He could also be himself around Jack. There were no pretenses. Ennis certainly wasn’t hiding anything (with Jack). I think he knew, in his heart of hearts, that he didn’t want a life without Jack.

I agree with everything you wrote here and I think it’s extremely well said.  Nothing extraneous.  The way I worded “moving away from loving Jack” is not well worded for this discussion because it harkens back to how I’ve qualified it in other posts and not everyone had read those other posts.  A better way of saying it – what I should have said – is: “Ennis distances himself from the self-acknowledgement of his love for Jack.”  We have Ennis.  We have his love for Jack.  We have his behaviors that express his love for Jack.  We see all three. Ennis only sees the first and third.  He does not make the connection in his mind that what he does is the same thing as loving Jack – a man.  I believe he moves further from his realization until the breakdown and then he starts to get closer to the realization starting with his little tête-à-tête with Cassie in the bus depot over pie and coffee.  Because this is what I meant, and I still believe, I also agree with all that you said.

We have previously talked about the bookends of their relationship post mountain: …

Yep.  Agreed.

This is where our opinions diverge. There may be a revelation here, but not on Jack’s part … on Ennis’. I don’t think Jack ever thought that Ennis wanted to see him for the “high altitude f—ks once or twice a year.” Jack understood Ennis’ fear. This was obvious to Jack after Ennis’ divorce. Of course Jack was devastated and frustrated when, yet again, Ennis turned him away. But, IMO, Jack knew that Ennis was loyal to him (and yes, that Ennis loved him). Ennis’ motivation to see Jack was not simply to have a good time, but to be with the one person who could see through all of his internal fears and struggles. What Ennis realizes at the time of their fight, is that this “thing” he was feeling was, indeed, love. Ultimately it was too late. But, when Ennis breaks down into Jack’s arms, he knows this is it …. Jack is his one-in-a-lifetime love.

I still stand by Jack’s revelation.  I do think Ennis wanted to see Jack for the HAFs; but, also to be with the one person … etc. as you stated.  Both are present.  The difference I was trying to draw attention to is this:  Jack knows it’s both.  Very deep down in his gut Ennis knows it’s both, but he cannot acknowledge it.  He cannot call it love – for either of them.  Because if he does, then they’re queer, and that’s bad.  Then it’s no longer “a thing.”  What happens here is that Jack sees Ennis’ worlds colliding and Jack sees Ennis’ inability to keep it from happening.  And Jack sees Ennis’ inability to cope with the situation.  This is Jack’s revelation.  The focus is on Jack realizing the destructive effects that Ennis’ internalized homophobia have had on Ennis himself.  This is the key trigger for Jack to make his decision.  He had to see this.  This is where Ennis granted Jack’s wish.  Ennis showed Jack how to quit Ennis.

I honestly do not know the answer and I think you present a good argument. I am not convinced that Jack could do it. We know that Ennis was not ready to give up Jack (as evidenced by his initiating the November trip). However, when Ennis drives away, the look on Jack’s face indicates to me that he knows he will never see his love again.

Excellent conclusion to come to.  I take it a step further, but nothing wrong with what you said.

This is when what I read influences what I think. Both the short story and screenplay say: …

This is where you make it difficult for me.  In case you don’t know this about me, I don’t like mixing the short story, the screenplay, and the film for a number of reasons.  The primary reason is that they are all three different stories with different characters.  In each, the characters are described differently, act differently, say different things, are motivated differently, and react and respond differently.  It's not good to take a fact from the short story and apply it to the film.  For example, we know, from the film, that Ennis got himself a year a high school (although he failed grammar); from the film, we do not know Jack’s education level.  But, some people like to say Jack never finished high school either – the short story says so.  Well, fine for short story Jack, but he’s not film Jack.  Otherwise, where are his buck teeth and curly hair?  And just where is Ennis hiding poor little Francine?  But, if someone wants to believe that film Jack didn’t graduate high school, who cares?  It’s not important and it’s not contradicted by the film.

Now, when people look to the short story for character motivation, I’m much more open to that.  Because to me, it’s no different than going to Gone with the Wind and finding a similar situation and presenting an opinion of motivation.  We can buy it or not.  That said, here’s another twist.  When we look to the short story for either fact or motivation and it contradicts the film, then in discussions of the film, the film wins.  In our discussion, I believe the film and short story contradict each other.  “Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” is a very poor description of what happened in the film at the final fight scene.  There are any number of things that ended and began.  And, while Jack maybe did not make his resolve at that moment, I believe he did do so within a very short amount of time.

Based on both of these statements, I don’t think Jack could have ever given up Ennis.

I’m concerned when you use the words “given up.”  My post is about Jack releasing Ennis, not holding him captive, etc.  “Given up” sounds like “stop loving.”  Jack never stopped loving Ennis.  I know that and I think that’s what you’re saying here, but that’s not incompatible with releasing Ennis from his torment – in fact, it’s defined by it. 

Even if Jack would have shacked up with Randall, I still believe that he would have continued his “fishing trips” with Ennis.

Although this doesn’t speak well for Jack’s love for Randall, this is not incompatible with Jack ending his relationship with Ennis in order to set Ennis free from all of his inner torments, while still loving Ennis.

It is not that Jack was being selfish in staying with Ennis.

However, it would be after Ennis’ breakdown -- especially if nothing had changed.

They were just too enmeshed. The one was not complete without the other.

Again this is not incompatible with Jack ending his relationship with Ennis in order to set Ennis free from all of his inner torments, while still loving Ennis.

When Ennis realized he loved Jack, IMO, was when he broke down into Jack’s arms. He knew at that moment that Jack loved him, too.

To me, this is probably our greatest point of disagreement.  Ennis’ worlds were colliding and crashing and whizzing and pummeling him.  He’s not the sort of guy to get it all figured out while all of this is going on.  Ennis had to go through a slow process of realization.  It started with the words, fight, and breakdown of the final lake scene, Cassie was the major pivot point in the depot, then Lureen, then Mr. Twist, then Mrs. Twist, then the shirts.  And his understanding of all of this was confirmed by his final discussion with Alma Jr.

I don’t think Ennis or Jack saw their relationship as one for “just having fun” …

A major distinction has to be made here.  Until Ennis’ realization began, he convinced himself that their relationship was about “a good time.”  Two buds getting together, out in the middle of nowhere, having sex.  To us, the viewers, we see what it really was.  But it was impossible for Ennis to see it that way.  That’s the point of the movie.  That the destructive effects of homophobia took their greatest toll on Ennis himself such that he could not even recognize love.  This is supported by the key transition from the final lake scene to the bus depot.  Ennis, in the final lake scene, talking of their relationship in terms of a “good time,” and Cassie, in the bus depot, clueing Ennis in to the fact that a relationship isn’t about “fun” – it’s about love.  This is the purpose of the bus depot scene.  To wake Ennis up after twenty years.  The major distinction is between “what was” and “what Ennis called it.”

…if that would have been the case, they would have ended it long ago.

No.  It was the one way Ennis could define their relationship and keep all of his inner struggles in check.  He was just fine with this definition.  He had to be.  Jack went along with it because Jack knew Ennis’ limitations – he just didn’t realize the full extent of those limitations until the breakdown.  Remember, they came up with a half-baked definition of their relationship up on Brokeback in the “not queer” scene.  We, the viewers, knew it to be false.  Jack knew it to be false.  But they were both comfortable with it because it kept them together without Ennis having to face reality.  A false definition of their relationship stayed with them throughout their twenty years.  Simply because it kept them together.  It is without the false definition that they would have ended it a long time ago.

Keep in mind when Jack drove 14 hours after Ennis’ divorce …. Ennis was fully aware that Jack had just been devastated. Ennis also knew, when they were together for the last time, that Jack missed Ennis so much he could hardly handle it. It wasn’t that they were getting together to pass the time, ride horses, and f--k.  They were consistently drawn to each other by a deeper passion.

Yes.  We know that.  Jack knew that.  But Ennis hid from the truth.  We see that Ennis was confronted with the truth, Jack saw it, but Ennis still hid.  What Ennis really needed was for Jack **Nicholson** to come up to him and yell “You can’t handle the truth!” 

The whole film is about Ennis’ inability to reconcile his worlds into harmony – the destructive effects of rural homophobia.

Whew!  Heck of a good time!  Why do I have the feeling we'll have another round of this?

[Amber]

Here’s a sticky question… let’s say Jack “quit” Ennis.  And Jack moved up to Lightning Flat with the other fella.  Now, it’s five years later.  Ennis pays a call to say he’s ready, willing, and able.  Does Jack dump Randall?  Did Jack just accept Randall as a warm body?  Or did Jack make/allow himself to fall in love with Randall?  We’ve all heard that the first love is the strongest.  (I question this, though.)  So even if we all agree that any love that Jack would have for Randall is not as strong as the love Jack had for Ennis, would Jack dump Randall and his love for Randall after, let’s say, five years of living together?  I don’t want this to go the fan fiction route; rather, just a good discussion of our views of Jack’s and Ennis’ characters.

I believe that Jack would have dropped Randall in a heartbeat for Ennis, even after 5 years.  I think Jack settled for Randall because he couldn't have what he wanted and having Randall was better than having nothing.  I believe Jack quit Ennis hoping that Ennis would sort things out, come to his senses and make a move.  I don't think Jack would have spent much of his time investing in a relationship with Randall in the first place.  He invested a lot of time and energy into his true love and all it got him was heartache and a head full of beautiful memories and thoughts of things that never came to fruition.  I think it would be hard for him to fully involve himself in a relationship that he didn't really have the heart for after that experience.  So he may be shacking up with Randall and involved with him sexually but he wouldn't be "with" Randall the way he was/is with Ennis in his mind everyday. 

So in a simple answer, yes - I think Jack would have dropped Randall to have what he really wanted all along.  At least IMO.

The one was not complete without the other.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Athough I stated earlier I was glad to here the reason Jack could have quit Ennis was that he loved him, and it made me feel better so much I don't think he would have for the same reason.

Jack would never do anything to hurt Ennis and instinctivley knew that Ennis needed him as much as he needed Ennis. At the lake Ennis was so upset to hear about "Mexico", lashing out in anger. His response to Jack "I wish I knew...." I believe was oppisite what he meant, he had a real fear of loosing Jack, and the only person he could be himself with, at that point, if not why the tears? Jack coming to him with s'alright, the much need conforter he had often been. When Ennis said "I can't stand this..." I take it to mean that since he couldn't "fix..." he was comimg close to making a move to Jack.

I think the "I miss you so....." happened earlier in that camping trip and that is why Ennis put off telling Jack he couldn't make until Nov.

To BOTH of then I think the word queer or fag ment effeminate which clearly niether were.

As far as Randall, "It never came to pass"

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Jack would never do anything to hurt Ennis and instinctivley knew that Ennis needed him as much as he needed Ennis.

Which would hurt Ennis more – releasing him from his captivity or keeping him a captive?

[serious crayons]

*Sigh.* Ruthlessly, your scenario is thoroughly conceptualized and well written and brilliantly presented. But -- no surprise -- I disagree with a lot of it. Where to start? We're juggling so many assertions, and they're easier to take on one at a time, like bad guys in a cheesy fight scene. Pradoxically, much of my resistance really can be condensed into a few big disagreements. But they're the ones that tend to define a viewer's subjective interpretation of the entire movie.

And subjectivity ... well, that's another one of my problems. I've only seen the movie 15 times, which I know is measly by some standards  , but it's enough for me to have formed some fairly solid and cherished opinions. If we'd discussed this over coffee after the movie the first night I saw it ... But now, after countless hours spent here, formulating and defending my views, they're so established I can't see myself overhauling them.

But why should I overhaul them? They're my opinions, so I must have an airtight basis for them, hunh?

Well, um, yeah. Still, I'm not sure I can defend all of them with the steeltrap logic that you deploy, Ruthlessly, to support your theory. I, too, like using rational analysis and empirical evidence, not whims and emotional preferences. But I'm not sure I can marshall logic and evidence to support every belief. In so many instances I can imagine counterarguments that might seem to topple mine. I can already hear myself going, "But ... but ..."

So I'm afraid in the end I'll wind up making the kind of argument that I sometimes see other people make. They'll say they believe something just because they like to believe it, because they've grown to love Jack and Ennis a particular way and can't bear to cast them in an unfamiliar light. When I encounter that response, I often sort of roll my eyes and think that if I apply my searing logic they'll change their minds. And sometimes they actually do. But now that I am experiencing it from the other side, I find that sometimes you just want to believe something, even if you can't present unimpeachable evidence. (Great. So I'm abandoning the rationalism that I've upheld my entire life. I feel like one of those people standing on my doorstep with tracts. Next thing you know I'll be joining a cult. Or wait ... am I in one already?)

Anyway, here are some of my points of disagreement (I see they almost all pertain to Ennis -- 2:30 a.m. and I haven't even gotten to Jack! Also, my tenses switch back and forth from past to present, sorry, I usually try to fix that, but I'm not this time). Many of these are points I've made before -- either with you, Ruthlessly, or with others -- so I can anticipate some of the counterarguments that people might make. I've conveniently included a few of them here (they're not necessarily Ruthlessly's, just ones I've seen a lot). Anyway, feel free to reject either my views or the counterarguments or both -- or to overhaul your own views, once confronted by my searing airtight logic! 

Ennis certainly loved Jack, but he did not recognize it as “love,” he certainly did not accept it

He'd have to be a zombie (as MIkaela once beautifully put it) not to notice he was in love with Jack, even if he didn't call it that. First, he suffered for it constantly for four years. When Jack returned he could hardly believe his luck and happiness. Ennis risked all on that reunion kiss, showed in the motel scene how much he's thought about Jack, more or less told Jack he loved him. (People don't send up prayers of thanks for "fun.") Whenever he saw Jack, even in the otherwise awkward post-divorce scene, he always looked thrilled. There's no reason to believe he didn't long for Jack between rendezvous. Just because he didn't respond to "I miss you so much ..." doesn't mean he doesn't know that feeling. I believe he expressed it in ways both he and Jack understood. From a storytelling perspective, TS3 is not nothin. It's low-key, sure, but it's there for a reason, especially coming immediately after that unanswered last line. (Anticipated counterargument: You don't understand how deep some people's denial can go. Me: Maybe. It's true that my knowledge of human nature does not accomodate a situation in which the person is in total denial -- yet often behaves as if he were in total acceptance. In other words, if he couldn't acknowledge that he "whatevered" Jack, he couldn't also put on his best shirt and sit for hours with his face up to the window, struggling with nervousness and doubt, waiting for Jack to drive up. He would go about his chores or whatever, trying to behave in a way that matched what he was trying to get himself to believe.)

Ennis broke down and blamed Jack for being the way he was

He was lashing out, no more sincere at the lake than he was in the parallel scene when he punched Jack, an act he regretted for the next four f'in years.

after their initial time on the mountain ended. He was retching and this turned into anger.

He was retching mostly from heartbreak. Yes, he also seemed angry, partly at himself -- that was frustration. He had let the love of his life drive away and hadn't stopped him and felt helpless to fix the situation.

But it was not in Ennis’ character to allow deep-down feelings to rise to the surface and for him to admit them

I think he does admit them but hides them from others. He tries to hide them from himself, too, but never with complete success.

In his truest moment of self-realization and openness, told Jack that “I’m nothin’. I’m nowhere.”

He has probably thought so for years. But he doesn't literally hold Jack responsible for his N/N status. He recognizes that he's N/N because of the situation. Which, BTW, does not mean he really wants Jack to leave him be, even though he says that, too.

Jack suddenly sees Ennis in a different light. ... Ennis has never come to terms with his love or with their relationship or with himself, for that matter.

Jack knows Ennis isn't sincere. It's true that Ennis never has been able to reconcile those two warring feelings: I love a man; it's bad to be queer. They've been fighting each other in his mind for 20 years. Neither feeling has won (if it had, the stalemate would have ended), because Ennis believes he can't fix it and so struggles valiantly to stand it. It's not easy. It causes huge stress. So now he realizes that, in fact, he can't stand it.

If he can't stand it, is he going to escape it ... or fix it? For those who favor interpretations offering consistency and theme-building, which of these corollaries best fits Ennis' famous motto?

Jack also knows that the “quit” pain will ultimately be less disastrous to the man he loves (Ennis) than the “continue” pain is causing him.

Well, I don't think so myself, and I don't know Ennis as well as Jack does. When did he seem more unhappy: riding horses with Jack, even in that glum scene, or saying "Jack, I swear"? If Jack does think Ennis would be better off without him, he's wrong. Even in the long term. Much of the sadness of the ending rests on our understanding of how miserable Ennis will be for the rest of his life -- because he's without Jack. (Anticipated counterargument: But that's after he learns his lesson. Me: No, he'd be miserable if he lost Jack at any point in the story. The fact that he's learned something by then only makes it more poignant and ironic.)

Ennis can cope with rejection and abandonment ... But he cannot deal with his inner struggles – at least not this one. It’s just not his character.

How do we know this? Again, these are both big parts of his character. (Anticipated counterargument: because if the big problem were abandonment, it wouldn't fit the theme of the movie. Me: But does every damn thing have to adhere that closely to the presumed theme? I think we get the message bout the destructive effects of rural homophobia, in any case.)

Ennis loved Jack. But on the surface ... it was all just fun

It wasn't all that fun for Ennis. He took what for him were huge risks, lost jobs, lost his wife, battled his own cognitive dissonance -- even, potentially, risked a horrible death -- in order to be with Jack. It wasn't a day at the beach. But he did it because, no matter what, he wanted to be with Jack. A couple of HAFs a year wouldn't have been worth all this. And while we're on that subject, why do we assume he can shrug off HAFs in convincing himself he ain't queer (which in my view he doesn't believe anyway)? To me, that seems like it would fit right into the definition. (Anticipated counterargument: But you don't understand how people can -- Me: Oh, well, maybe. I don't know. Never mind.)

– it was a “thing” that grabbed him – at least, this is how Ennis rationalized it to himself.

It wasn't a matter of rationalizing, but being reluctant to put the L-word to it. But that he knew that it "grabbed" him -- was uncontrollable -- shows that he recognized how deep and powerful it was. Fun doesn't grab you at the wrong place, wrong time. Fun does, in fact, usually have reins on it. You don't ride fun as long as you can ride it, you ride it until it's no longer fun. Looks to me like at the end, it wasn't fun at all, yet Ennis was still ridin it. (Anticipated counterargument: What about Cassie's remark? Me: It's the "love" that triggered Ennis' epiphany, not the "fun." Anticipated counterargument to that: OK, but then same thing -- Ennis suddenly realized it was "love" with Jack. Me: Um, yeah. I agree that he had an epiphany, but I haven't totally figured out what it was. Maybe it was that love isn't always fun -- in fact, it's often not -- but it's worth honoring anyway?)

He didn’t send a postcard saying “OK, let’s set up housekeepin’ together.” It was just another invite

True, the words on the card weren't unusual. But we know Ennis is a man of few words even orally, let alone in writing. How much of his heart is he going to pour out on a postcard sent through his small-town post office?

Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis

This signals to me that Ennis has realized that love is more important than all other considerations (such as what kind of a guy Kurt is, or how she met him ... etc.). The lesson Ennis has learned is that he should not have put anything ahead of his love for Jack.

[ednbarby]

Which would hurt Ennis more – releasing him from his captivity or keeping him a captive?

It's probably pretty clear what my answer to this is.

And assuming that Randall did want more from Jack than just sex (I like to think he did mostly because Jack deserves more than that, and really, I can't see Jack foolishly mentioning another guy coming up to ranch with him in Lightning Flat to his parents knowing sex is all he wanted), I'd like to submit that I think there is something between getting to be with the love of your life exactly the way you want to be and settling.  That something is being with someone else who, while he may not elicit nearly the same intensity of passion in you as your one true love, does give you something else you need.  And someone who you do love, albeit in a different way.  I have to think that, otherwise I'd have been settling for the last nigh on 20 years.  And I don't think I've been doing that.  But not a day goes by that I don't think of the other one.  But would I have dropped everything for him had he changed his mind?  No.  I know that because he did (sort of) and I didn't.  Because it wasn't enough - he wasn't going to live with me - he was going to have us go on just as we had before, just more frequently and exclusively where he was concerned.

I just can't believe that Ennis would have ever lived with Jack openly, in Lightning Flat or anywhere.  There's the rub.  If you believe he would have, then it makes Ruthlessly's question even stickier.  Or maybe not - maybe it makes it really easy.  Still, I think that if Jack had set up house with Randall and a while later (doesn't really matter how long) Ennis came and begged him to take him back, promising to live with him like Randall was, the answer would still have been no.  And Ennis' doing that would devastate Jack.  But it is not in his nature to reneg on a promise, and I believe he would have come to love Randall, just in a different way.  Of course he'd never stop loving Ennis.  But, and not to be flippant, I find that old Rolling Stones line really applies, here - you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need.

[Jeff Wrangler]

And assuming that Randall did want more from Jack than just sex (I like to think he did mostly because Jack deserves more than that, and really, I can't see Jack foolishly mentioning another guy coming up to ranch with him in Lightning Flat to his parents knowing sex is all he wanted).

Jack does, indeed, deserve more than and better than that. I'm not meanin' to pick on you, Barb, nor do I mean to be perverse or beside the point--just that I've come to think it's important to realize that we don't have anything more than assumptions to go on with Randall. Evidently for years Jack talked about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, and that never happened--and here even I'm assuming that was because of Ennis, but do we really know whether Jack ever even brought that subject up to Ennis? By the time of Jack's death, I guess he and Randall had known each other for about three years, so you might think Jack would know by then whether or not Randall's intentions were honorable, as the saying used to be, but maybe our dear, optimistic Jack didn't really know. Or maybe he was just day-dreaming out loud.

I've also assumed that Jack died before he had time to try to bring about moving up to his folks' ranch with Randall--and I really don't see any reason to change my own assumption on this point, despite John Twist's snide remark that this was another of Jack's plans that didn't come to pass. But that still begs the point: What evidence do we have that Randall wanted anything more from Jack than a couple of lakeside fucks one or twice a year?

Poor Jack. He deserved so much better than he got out of life. 

[ednbarby]

We don't have any evidence of that, Jeff, you're right.  I was just answering Ruthlessly's question and making that assumption to do it.

Had Jack not ended up seriously involved with Randall and had Ennis finally come around, and by that I mean agreed to ranch up with him, I'm not even sure Jack would have been able to do that - Ennis would always be conflicted about it and afraid for both their lives, and Jack wouldn't want to have him that way if he weren't 100% up to it.  And I just don't think Ennis ever would be.  I feel certain, though, that Jack no longer wanted to continue on with things the way they were with Ennis, Randall or no Randall, for all the reasons Ruthlessly and I have already thrown out there.  Doesn't mean I think that's the only answer - it's just the way I can't help but see it.

[serious crayons]

What evidence do we have that Randall wanted anything more from Jack than a couple of lakeside fucks one or twice a year?

Not even high-altitude in their case, hunh?

I am willing to believe Randall cared about Jack on a deeper level than that. But it's kind of moot and speculative anyway, isn't it, since it never came to pass?

Jack either brought up the ranching idea with Randall and got an encouraging response of some sort, or knows Randall well enough to consider it viable, or pins his hopes on it even though as with Ennis it's at best a remote possibility. Randall -- though obviously more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis -- might be hesitatant for similar reasons, or reluctant to leave LaShawn, or afraid of losing his kids. Or he's all for it.

In any case, Jack mentions the plan to the folks. Even the mention might have been casual and iffy.

So would the idea have come to pass if Jack had lived? No way of knowing.

[serious crayons]

I'm sorry to go way OT here for a minute, but I feel terrible about something and this seems like the best place to address it.

Somebody just PMed me and said they were offended when in my previous post I said,

When I encounter that response, I often sort of roll my eyes and think that if I apply my searing logic they'll change their minds.

The person asked if I was joking. And in fact, I was. Sometimes I get into discussions that begin to feel like debates. Actually, I enjoy them. So in this particular case, I was making fun of myself, being facetious. Of course you can't apply searing logic to every aspect of a movie with huge emotional impact. That's what I was trying to say. Ironically, it sounds like the PMer read that it just the opposite way, and looking back I guess I can see how that's possible.

So anyway, if this were only a disagreement about one line or with one person, it could easily be cleared up. To start with, I would rush to change the line or the whole post. I'm mortified to think that anybody would misinterpret and be offended by it. (I am tempted to delete the whole thing, but I'm leaving it up so people will know what I'm referring to.) To anyone else who was hurt or offended by that line or anything else in that post, I really, really apologize.

But I want to say more, because the person also said s/he has resented my attitude on other posts, and that others have complained about it, too. The PM was quite strongly stated, including using the word "arrogant" three times. S/he said this has created an unpleasant environment, not entirely because of me but at least partly. S/he said s/he feels like s/he's being "run off the threads." Meanwhile, Phillip has written a very nice diplomatic post elsewhere on this forum about this same issue.

I like debating things and sometimes I probably come on too strong (that's the attitude of mine I was making fun of above). I really don't think I'm the only one who likes to debate; many of us here often pose pretty formidable opinions. Personally, I don't mind that; in fact I think it's fun. I assumed it was fun for others, too. Not for everybody, I see now.

I really, really like everyone here.  So I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel about the news that others have been angered or offended. I don't want anyone here ever to feel bad, let alone bad enough to leave. I was upset when four people left yesterday, because I like all of those people and will miss them. it's dismaying to think that people get unhappy enough to make a dramatic exit (though in that case, the issues appear to have been very different).

So I'm really sorry to hijack your thread, Ruthlessly. I apologize to you and to everyone else. I figure most of the people I talk to most will be likely to read this sooner or later, so goes to all of you. I'm going to try to be much more careful from now on.

 

If anybody has any response to the above, one way or another, please PM me rather than post it here so I won't have to feel any guiltier than I already do about going so OT. Now everybody get back to discussing -- in a nice way! -- why Jack quit Ennis.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Still, I think that if Jack had set up house with Randall and a while later (doesn't really matter how long) Ennis came and begged him to take him back, promising to live with him like Randall was, the answer would still have been no.  And Ennis' doing that would devastate Jack.  But it is not in his nature to reneg on a promise, and I believe he would have come to love Randall, just in a different way.  Of course he'd never stop loving Ennis.

 I agree 100%.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

...we don't have anything more than assumptions to go on with Randall.

The only things we "know for sure" are that Randall came on to Jack, Jack may have been having his time with Randall (we all agree, I think, that it's NOT LaShawn... but, the fact that Jack lied about an affair with LaShawn... could he also be lying about having any affair at all?  Maybe Jack wasn't sleeping with either?), and Jack did mention bringing up another guy (to me, it's clear that it's Randall, but who knows?).

I've also assumed that Jack died before he had time to try to bring about moving up to his folks' ranch with Randall--and I really don't see any reason to change my own assumption on this point, despite John Twist's snide remark that this was another of Jack's plans that didn't come to pass. But that still begs the point: What evidence do we have that Randall wanted anything more from Jack than a couple of lakeside fucks one or twice a year?

I agree with all of this.  And your question about what Randall himself wanted out of whatever relationship he may have had with Jack, and your question about whether Jack was just pie-in-the-sky'ing it... -- both great questions!

Poor Jack. He deserved so much better than he got out of life. 

Who could disagree?  They'd have to be a dumbass mule...

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Randall -- though obviously more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis --

Ya think?   


Everything else you said in this post is spot on, imho.
 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I'm sorry to go way OT here for a minute, but I feel terrible about something and this seems like the best place to address it.

Somebody just PMed me and said they were offended when in my previous post I said, …

If anybody has any response to the above, one way or another, please PM me rather than post it here so I won't have to feel any guiltier than I already do about going so OT.

Sorry to go against your wishes, latjoreme, but since I’m the original poster, I’ll take the right to do so – I’m going to post a response here – because you deserve public support.

Obviously I do not know the complete contents of the PM that was sent to you.  But I do know what you said here.  And I do know what you wrote in your post above.  And I read the context of it.  If someone misunderstood and asked whether you were joking, fine.  No problem.  But if someone made a conscious choice to take offense at what you wrote – and thereby implicitly accused you of an intent to offend – AND then consciously and with intent acted offensively to you by calling you arrogant and accusing you of an “attitude” -- then phewy!

Without a clear intent to offend from the original speaker/writer, offense taken by the listener/reader is a personal conscious choice and decision.  There is nothing you can do to stop that someone from choosing to do that.  Inadvertent, whimsical remarks made on a message board such as this one are not the place to find offense in life.  A very simple response of “Sorry if you were offended” is completely sufficient.  I do not like that anyone put you in a place where you felt you had to post all that you posted in your apology.  I understand why you did it and I’m sorry that someone else put you in that position.

I know whereof I speak.  I was put into a similar position on this board.  Same kind of criticism.  Dismiss it.  Each person in this forum has his or her own unique personality.  And I treasure that.  In all of the threads that I've read and posted to I have not seen one post by anyone that I would have taken offense at or that I felt showed an undue  or inappropriate attitude. 

Of course you can't apply searing logic to every aspect of a movie with huge emotional impact.

Of course you can.  Anyone can.  If that’s the way a person wants to approach the film, then I can’t figure out what in the world would give any other person any business at all to take an issue with that personal choice.

I am tempted to delete the whole thing, …

You damn well better not!  I still have to respond to it!   

… the person also said s/he has resented my attitude on other posts, and that others have complained about it, too.

Tough shit.  It’s NOT about your attitude.  It’s about that person’s assumptions about your attitude.  You have NEVER displayed an “attitude” or arrogance that I have seen.  Quite the opposite.  The focus should be on that person’s assumptions.  Interesting, isn’t it, that that person can accuse you of having an “attitude” and being “arrogant” when you didn’t intend it, but that person then intended to make the assumption and then had the gall to tell you about it with intentionally offensive words.

As to "running people off" -- EVERYONE has a right to state his or her own opinion and to state it strongly and directly and to take ownership of it.  EVERYONE has a right to disagree and to say so.  Everyone has the opportunity to argue his or her position and to counterargue other positions.  If someone felt "run off" without having someone starting to get personal and insulting, then too bad... try harder next time.



Latjoreme – if you change the way you are just because someone chose to take offense at an unintentional remark AND THEN was intentionally offensive to you… well, I’ll be sorely disappointed.

[dly64]

I like debating things and sometimes I probably come on too strong (that's the attitude of mine I was making fun of above). I really don't think I'm the only one who likes to debate; many of us here often pose pretty formidable opinions. Personally, I don't mind that; in fact I think it's fun. I assumed it was fun for others, too. Not for everybody, I see now.

I really, really like everyone here.  So I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel about the news that others have been angered or offended. I don't want anyone here ever to feel bad, let alone bad enough to leave. I was upset when four people left yesterday, because I like all of those people and will miss them. it's dismaying to think that people get unhappy enough to make a dramatic exit (though in that case, the issues appear to have been very different).

Girl! You know I love debating ... so I hope that you don't stop giving your opinion. I am sorry to hear that people were upset. Just to let you know, I really enjoy hearing what you have to say (even though we don't always agree ... that's the fun of it, IMO!)

[ednbarby]

I agree 100%.

Thank you, my dear.  As I agree 100% with your most recent response to Katherine.

As someone who's been accused of having an attitude and being arrogant on another board at which I thought everyone understood or at least respected me, it makes my heart hurt to hear that someone who has taken such great pains not to offend as Katherine has here is being lambasted privately for being willfully offensive.  I've seen people post truly nasty, hurtful things with attitude on other boards, but very rarely here - *much* more rarely here, in fact, than I've ever encountered in 10+ years of posting in online forums - and Katherine has never been one of them as far as I'm concerned.

[dly64]

As someone who's been accused of having an attitude and being arrogant on another board at which I thought everyone understood or at least respected me, it makes my heart hurt to hear that someone who has taken such great pains not to offend as Katherine has here is being lambasted privately for being willfully offensive.  I've seen people post truly nasty, hurtful things with attitude on other boards, but very rarely here - *much* more rarely here, in fact, than I've ever encountered in 10+ years of posting in online forums - and Katherine has never been one of them as far as I'm concerned.

DITTO!!! Are we all in agreement!? Katherine - DON'T CHANGE!!!

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I'm only through page one right now but I can't read 2 and 3 at this minute. I'm not alone in the room and I am really struggling to stay composed. Or, well, subtle.

I really am just stunned. I had never really thought Jack could move on -- in his heart, he never will -- but this essay makes PERFECT sense and is totally clear (it makes me love the movie even more -- which somehow is still possible... ??).

But, Good God, this is such a profound, heartbreaking cap to one of my sadder Brokeback days. This morning all I did was simply pop in the DVD to check ONE THING, caught sight of the wrong scene (there's something heartbreaking to me about seeing the boys getting old and bogged down by life in the "Maybe you oughtta get outta there, come down to Texas" scene.) and before I knew it, I was in hysterical tears, locked in the bathroom.

But bravo, ruthlessly, on a clear, revelatory essay ... and bravo to the filmmakers -- how people call this film 'mediocre' (or less) is beyond me.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Although I  disagree with you statments about Jack quitting Ennis, I like the heartfelt and well written way you presented you case.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

bbm_stitchbuffyfan –


Thank you!  I normally like to start a response post with a bit of a quote from what the other poster wrote, but here, I can’t. Everything you said was soooo very nice and I’m afraid if I quoted it, it would make it look as if I’m just trying to emphasize or re-post your praise.  I will bask in it, but in private.

Thanks again for all you said.  It’s very kind.  I especially like it when I read a post and it affects me or gives me new understanding – that happens to me a lot here.  So it’s nice to hear that you got something from my post.  Thanks again.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Alrhough I  disagree with you statments about Jack quitting Ennis, I like the heartfelt and well written way you presented you case.

No problem.  And thank you.  And thank you for the beautiful picture.  It's quite appropriate to the thread. 

P.S.  Feel free to jump in with your comments, criticisms, questions, etc.

[fernly]

.... it makes my heart hurt to hear that someone who has taken such great pains not to offend as Katherine has here is being lambasted privately for being willfully offensive.  I've seen people post truly nasty, hurtful things with attitude on other boards, but very rarely here - *much* more rarely here, in fact, than I've ever encountered in 10+ years of posting in online forums - and Katherine has never been one of them as far as I'm concerned.

another person here agreeing 100%

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

ORIGINAL POSTER'S NOTE:  Hey everyone!  WARNING!  This post is long!  My original post was long and I expected a long response post from latjoreme as we've discussed a number of these issues in other threads and PMs.  So my response post to latjoreme's is quite long.  Sorry!  So if you want to read it, go get some apple pie and a cup of coffee.  And take a bathroom break first.  Now, if I haven't scared you off, here goes...

Ruthlessly, your scenario is thoroughly conceptualized and well written and brilliantly presented. But -- no surprise -- I disagree with a lot of it.

And this is why we’re all here.  To discuss and banter and argue.  It’s interesting that after reading your post in which you disagreed with me on various points I wanted to run off into the corner and cry my little eyes out.  But, I pulled myself up by the bootstraps, sat down at my keyboard, used my brain – what little I have left at this point – and I composed a response to your post.  Hmmm… there’s an idea… “discuss.”  Novel.

But why should I overhaul them? They're my opinions, so I must have an airtight basis for them, hunh?

Regardless “airtight,” they’re yours and you have every right to express and defend them.  You go girl!

…I'm not sure I can defend all of them with the steeltrap logic that you deploy, …

LOL!

They'll say they believe something just because they like to believe it, because they've grown to love Jack and Ennis a particular way and can't bear to cast them in an unfamiliar light. When I encounter that response, I often sort of roll my eyes and think that if I apply my searing logic they'll change their minds. And sometimes they actually do.

I don’t like it when someone’s entire argument is “because…” I like it, I said so, etc.  But some people are comfortable with this.  So, let be, let be.  The thing I find more frustrating is when a few posts have gone back and forth and someone throws in “Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree” – the classic, unilaterally imposed showstopper.  Better that someone would ask “Well, since we seem to be at an impasse, how about if we just agree to disagree?”  Now that’s respectful and respectable.

…I find that sometimes you just want to believe something, even if you can't present unimpeachable evidence.

There is NOTHING wrong with this as long as the person who feels this way comes out and says so.  By the way, I understood that your use of the word “you” above was not directed at me; rather, the ever-available “we all.”

Anyway, feel free to reject either my views or the counterarguments or both -- or to overhaul your own views, once confronted by my searing airtight logic!

Such an “arrogant” “attitude”…    

He'd have to be a zombie (as MIkaela once beautifully put it) not to notice he was in love with Jack, even if he didn't call it that.

OK.  I’ll go with that.  Ennis is a zombie.  (As long as Jack is still a potato.)

Seriously, I know you and I have discussed this before with a number of other people.  All I can really do here is to try to restate my position as concisely as possible.  He’s my try at it:

We see Ennis fall in love with Jack because we see (all of the things you listed).  So, Ennis is in love with Jack.  Does he call it love?  No.  He calls it a “thing.”  Does he, himself, recognize it as being “in love”?  As a known condition of himself throughout the twenty years that we see him, no.  He can’t.  Or, I should say, he cannot, within his own understanding of his world, allow it to possibly be “in love.”  Why can he not?  Two reasons:

1) If he is “in love” with a man, then to him, he’s “queer” and, to his way of thinking, he must face the consequences of that (think Earl).  He cannot allow this to be.  Why not?  Because he is not emotionally equipped to handle this.  Why not?  The destructive effects of the homophobia that were instilled in him by his father (think Earl).

2) If he is “in love” with Jack, then he has violated the definition of their relationship that was established between FNIT and SNIT (we’re not queer).  That would then mean, to him, that he’s “queer” and, to his way of thinking, he must face the consequences of that (think Earl).  He cannot allow this to be.  Why not?  Because he is not emotionally equipped to handle this.  Why not?  The destructive effects of the homophobia that were instilled in him by his father (think Earl).

Now, above I asked “Does he, himself, recognize it as being “in love”?”  And I said “As a known condition … throughout … [the film]..."  But, what about at various points in his life?  Like, on Saturday, when he’s walking out on the pavement, going to the store to buy some beans.  Does it occur to him that he is “in love” with Jack?  Sure.  But what does he do about it?  Does he stop at the five-and-dime and buy a Hallmark card to send to perky Jack in Texas?  No.  He denies it and he sublimates it.  Why?  Same two reasons as given above.  And yet, he desires and craves Jack… a “thing” has grabbed hold of him.  THIS he can deal with.  THIS he can compartmentalize into his world.

First, he suffered for it constantly for four years. When Jack returned he could hardly believe his luck and happiness. Ennis risked all on that reunion kiss, showed in the motel scene how much he's thought about Jack, more or less told Jack he loved him. (People don't send up prayers of thanks for "fun.") Whenever he saw Jack, even in the otherwise awkward post-divorce scene, he always looked thrilled. There's no reason to believe he didn't long for Jack between rendezvous. Just because he didn't respond to "I miss you so much ..." doesn't mean he doesn't know that feeling. I believe he expressed it in ways both he and Jack understood.

Yes.  Absolutely.  I agree with everything you said here.  He “more or less” told Jack.  But he didn’t admit “I’m in love” to himself or to Jack.  Whenever he comes close to it… and you cite a number of examples of when he came close to it… he recognizes what he’s feeling and what the consequences are and he gets confused, shuts himself down, denies that it is “in love” and says or does something else that fits into his world of inner struggles and fear.

From a storytelling perspective, TS3 is not nothin. It's low-key, sure, but it's there for a reason, especially coming immediately after that unanswered last line.

Yep.  One more example of coming close to letting “in love” drift too close to the surface, and instead letting it out in a way he can understand and compartmentalize.

Anticipated counterargument: You don't understand how deep some people's denial can go.

Nah, I wouldn’t go there.  It’s not understanding the denial or the depth of it, it’s understanding how he deals with it.  He goes a different route.  Never admitting “in love” and yet showing all its behaviors.

…if he couldn't acknowledge that he "whatevered" Jack, he couldn't also put on his best shirt and sit for hours with his face up to the window, struggling with nervousness and doubt, waiting for Jack to drive up. He would go about his chores or whatever, trying to behave in a way that matched what he was trying to get himself to believe.

No.  (Sorry to be so gosh darn rude and direct with that “no.”  Why don’t you send me a PM and accuse me of my offense?        Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)

While he was sitting there in his finest duds he more than likely let a thought slip into his brain such as “Gosh, I hope he shows… I really miss Jack… I gotta see him… I love…”  No doubt.  But he dismisses the word and continues with something like “… oh shit, this thing is grabbin’ holda me.”  He didn’t go about his chores because he didn’t need to act any differently for himself.  He’s acting completely in accord with how he feels and in accord with what he believes.  He **knows** that “this thing” has grabbed a hold of him.  He can deal with that.  And for tiny sparks of seconds he knows that he’s “in love,” but he immediately changes it to “this thing” because of his limitations, instilled in him by his father, etc., etc.

He was lashing out, no more sincere at the lake than he was in the parallel scene when he punched Jack, an act he regretted for the next four f'in years.

He was retching mostly from heartbreak. Yes, he also seemed angry, partly at himself -- that was frustration. He had let the love of his life drive away and hadn't stopped him and felt helpless to fix the situation.

I can agree with all of this.  I’m assuming you’re just stating more of what’s going on rather than disagreeing with something I’ve said because it all seems to fit together at once.

Ruthlessly:  But it was not in Ennis’ character to allow deep-down feelings to rise to the surface and for him to admit them

Latjoreme:  I think he does admit them but hides them from others. He tries to hide them from himself, too, but never with complete success.

I can go with this.  Well, except for the "admit" part.  What evidence do you have of him admitting them to himself?

Ruthlessly:  In his truest moment of self-realization and openness, told Jack that “I’m nothin’. I’m nowhere.”

Latjoreme:  He has probably thought so for years.

Sure enough.

But he doesn't literally hold Jack responsible for his N/N status. He recognizes that he's N/N because of the situation. Which, BTW, does not mean he really wants Jack to leave him be, even though he says that, too.

I’ll agree 100% with this if you’ll change the word “literally” to “entirely.”

Jack knows Ennis isn't sincere. It's true that Ennis never has been able to reconcile those two warring feelings: I love a man; it's bad to be queer. They've been fighting each other in his mind for 20 years. Neither feeling has won (if it had, the stalemate would have ended), because Ennis believes he can't fix it and so struggles valiantly to stand it. It's not easy. It causes huge stress. So now he realizes that, in fact, he can't stand it.

100% agreement.  It’s as if you’re restating what I said earlier.

One thing, though… “Jack knows Ennis isn’t sincere.”  I believe that Jack and Ennis both believe that there is a root of truth in what Ennis said.

If he can't stand it, is he going to escape it ... or fix it? For those who favor interpretations offering consistency and theme-building, which of these corollaries best fits Ennis' famous motto?

When Ennis first said “If you can’t fix it, you gotta stand it, Jack,” it was his intention to make Jack understand that they have to stand it.  “There ain’t no reins on this one.”  We have to stand it Jack.  That may have been the point that he wanted to get across.  Stand it.  BUT notice that Ennis never allowed any room for fixing it.  He threw out all his reasons why it could not be fixed thus establishing “stand it” as the new rule for their relationship.  When Jack arrived at the post-divorce looking all perky – and who wouldn’t after having just listened to “King of the Road” on the radio? – Jack thought that their situation had been fixed, i.e., Ennis got divorced.  Jack was not thinking about the other reasons – job, kids, and, oh yeah, the big one – Earl!  Jack learned there that there was going to have to be more standing, no fixing.  From the first time Ennis said it, he established a “given” – we cannot fix it.  And that’s why I don’t call it Ennis’ motto.  I call it the new definition of their relationship… the new rule.  It’s not a “one-shot” thing anymore.  Now it’s simply “a thing.”  And it’s unfixable, so it has to be stood.  

So, consistency and theme-building?  Cannot fix, cannot stand.  Cannot stand, cannot fix.  And Jack realized this; thus, Jack quit Ennis.  Because all along Jack thought Ennis was standing it.  But now, Ennis has exhausted that option.  The only other option is “fix.”  And that has long since been eliminated… by the very premise that established the new definition of their relationship that Ennis could deal with.  First it was “one-shot” then it was “stand.”  Always it was “not queer.”  But there was no room for fixing in Ennis’ world.  He never tried.  He just went deeper and deeper into his fears and paranoia.  Those are what he would have to overcome in order to fix it.

Ruthlessly:  Jack also knows that the “quit” pain will ultimately be less disastrous to the man he loves (Ennis) than the “continue” pain is causing him.

Latjoreme:  Well, I don't think so myself, and I don't know Ennis as well as Jack does.

Fair enough.

When did he seem more unhappy: riding horses with Jack, even in that glum scene, or saying "Jack, I swear"?

As to the horse riding scene, had Ennis had his breakdown at this point?  Had his worlds collided yet?  Was he still standing at this time?  Had Jack DIED yet?  After his breakdown, were his worlds still separated and in the best balance that Ennis was able to create?  Was he still able to stand?  Had he fixed anything?  Could he?  At the closet he has a lot more to be unhappy about than ever before.

If Jack does think Ennis would be better off without him, he's wrong. Even in the long term. Much of the sadness of the ending rests on our understanding of how miserable Ennis will be for the rest of his life -- because he's without Jack.

And yet, being “with” Jack is what caused his breakdown – his inability to keep his two worlds in balance.  

Anticipated counterargument: But that's after he learns his lesson. Me: No, he'd be miserable if he lost Jack at any point in the story. The fact that he's learned something by then only makes it more poignant and ironic.

I don’t disagree with this.  And yes, miserable.  But captive?  (There’s a good counterargument to what I just said, but I’m not going to be quite so magnanimous…     any thoughts?  I know the answer to that one!   )

Ruthlessly:  Ennis can cope with rejection and abandonment ... But he cannot deal with his inner struggles – at least not this one. It’s just not his character.

Latjoreme:  How do we know this?

Because he showed us.  He’s coped with rejection and abandonment for about 25 years.  And he had his breakdown when his worlds collided.  And their collision was premised on his inability to fix and to stand.  This underscores the theme of the film, the destructive effects of homophobia on Ennis’ inner core being.

Anticipated counterargument: because if the big problem were abandonment, it wouldn't fit the theme of the movie. Me: But does every damn thing have to adhere that closely to the presumed theme? I think we get the message bout the destructive effects of rural homophobia, in any case.

I, for one, would not have made this counterargument.  But, since you bring it up…  not every damn thing.  But this is one of the biggest moments for it.  Is it the most significant time?  I’ll have to think about that.  My knee-jerk reaction is “yes,” but I’d still have to think about it.  The theme doesn’t have relevance or meaning without its being prominent at the times when its prominence is prominently required.

It wasn't all that fun for Ennis.

No.  Again, my poor wording.  Or my poor construction of the argument at this point.  When I say it’s all about "fun,” I mean Ennis has conceptualized their relationship in terms that he can stand, in words that don’t require his worlds to collide.  I used the word “fun” because of Cassie’s significant contribution.  I could also say “good time” since that’s what Ennis himself referenced.  Also, I am NOT saying that Ennis' complete and total conceptualization of his relationship with Jack is summed up in one word - "fun."  The important point is that it is NOT summed up with the words "in love."  Ennis cannot bring himself to call it “in love” (same reasons as above) and so he uses other ways of describing their relationship.  Cassie’s contribution is not to give him more euphemisms.  She tells it like it is – “love.”

He took what for him were huge risks, lost jobs, lost his wife, battled his own cognitive dissonance -- even, potentially, risked a horrible death -- in order to be with Jack. It wasn't a day at the beach. But he did it because, no matter what, he wanted to be with Jack. A couple of HAFs a year wouldn't have been worth all this.

Exactly.  We know this, Jack knows this, Ennis knows this… but how does he conceptualize it?  How is he able to conceptualize it?  By saying that he’s able to conceptualize it as “in love” and be comfortable with this and keep his worlds in harmony with this negates his greatest character flaw – instilled fear of being queer (defined by being “in love” with another man) and its consequences.  In this scenario, there is no theme and there is no film.  He’s overcome the destructive effects of the instilled homophobia.  Good for him.  

And while we're on that subject, why do we assume he can shrug off HAFs in convincing himself he ain't queer (which in my view he doesn't believe anyway)? To me, that seems like it would fit right into the definition. (Anticipated counterargument: But you don't understand how people can -- Me: Oh, well, maybe. I don't know. Never mind.)

I wouldn’t tell you what you don’t understand… at least not THAT directly     .

Kidding!

Regardless whether we understand it or like it, this is the character that has been presented to us – a man who, because of the destructive effects of homophobia instilled into him in a gruesome way, must construct a framework for his life that will allow him to cope with his life, without actually dealing with the core issues involved.

It wasn't a matter of rationalizing, but being reluctant to put the L-word to it.

Well, when someone gets that reluctant, it’s rationalizing.  It’s not just a word out of the dictionary that he cannot say the way that I cannot bring myself to say the “n” word or the “c” word.  It’s his whole self-awareness we’re talking about here.  Reluctance doesn’t allow one to cope with a deep-seated, self-destructive fear.  Rationalization does.

But that he knew that it "grabbed" him -- was uncontrollable -- shows that he recognized how deep and powerful it was.

Agreed.  He knew better than anyone else how deep and powerful it was.  

Fun doesn't grab you at the wrong place, wrong time. Fun does, in fact, usually have reins on it. You don't ride fun as long as you can ride it, you ride it until it's no longer fun. Looks to me like at the end, it wasn't fun at all, yet Ennis was still ridin it.

Again, it’s not our definition of the word “fun” that we should be looking at.  It’s the fact that Ennis has rationalized his relationship with Jack away from “in love” and why he does this is important.  He never called it “in love.”  He called it “a thing” and “good time” and Cassie’s use of the word “fun” struck a spark in Ennis that caused him to realize that he’s been rationalizing his relationship away from “love.”  That’s what the rest of the film shows us – Ennis coming into a new (correct) rationalization and realization of the relationship; thus, his extreme regret over the loss of Jack and the lost opportunities.

It's the "love" that triggered Ennis' epiphany, not the "fun."

No.  It’s neither.  It’s both.  I emphasized Cassie’s use of the "fun" word (lighting Ennis’ light bulb) because it harkens back to Ennis’ words in the previous scene, “good time.”  “Fun” is the important word to trigger Ennis’ connection of “Cassie, fun” with “Jack, good time.”  Then Cassie’s use of the word “love” gives the epiphany completeness.  What Ennis now sees (except not with all the big, fancy words) is that he conceptualized his relationship with Cassie as “fun” and he conceptualized his relationship with Jack as anything else but "love."  (Wrangling with the definitions of the actual words “fun” and “good time” is NOT the important issue.  It’s the concept of Ennis’ conceptualization away from the words “in love” that is important.)  He now knows that his conceptualization of his relationship with Cassie was not the same as HER conceptualization of the relationship – he conceptualized it as “fun” and she conceptualized it as “love.”  Armed with this new knowledge, Ennis makes the connection (because of the words Cassie used – they clicked) to realize (light bulb time) that JACK did not conceptualization Jack’s relationship with Ennis the same way that Ennis conceptualized their relationship.  He now realizes that Jack conceptualized their relationship as “in love.”  This is something that Ennis could NOT accept into his own personal conceptualization because it would make him queer, etc., etc.  But now that he sees that Jack broke their “not queer” pact, that Jack defined their relationship differently than Ennis, that Jack was “in love,” he has something to deal with.  This would have been significant in his next meeting with Jack, had it occurred.  And, I believe, it would have had an impact on how Ennis approached that next meeting.  To what extent, we can only speculate.  (Unlike with everything else where we have definite answers.)  But after he got the postcard, every scene reinforced in Ennis what Cassie taught him – all too late – but with the glimmer of hope that Alma Jr. provides in the final scene.  And we see he has learned something and he has made a step forward.

I agree that he had an epiphany, but I haven't totally figured out what it was. Maybe it was that love isn't always fun -- in fact, it's often not -- but it's worth honoring anyway?

You’ve already made a good argument above that love isn’t always fun and that Ennis knew that.  So, this couldn’t be his epiphany.  Sure Ennis learns about honoring love later.  But does everything we’ve seen in their relationship before the pie scene add up to Ennis knowing he was in love with a man, accepting it, and now learning to honor it?  

True, the words on the card weren't unusual. But we know Ennis is a man of few words even orally, let alone in writing. How much of his heart is he going to pour out on a postcard sent through his small-town post office?

True enough.

Ruthlessly:  Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis

Latjoreme:  This signals to me that Ennis has realized that love is more important than all other considerations…

I wouldn’t go so far as to say “more important than all other considerations.”  That’s a little too big of a lesson for him to have learned by this time.  Give him another twenty years… he’s on the right road, at least.

The lesson Ennis has learned is that he should not have put anything ahead of his love for Jack.

Ummm, I think he’s learned that Jack was “in love” with Ennis… that Ennis was “in love” with Jack… that they maybe could have made a go of a life together…  BUT, I don’t think he’s totally overcome his fears – that’s too “Brady Bunch” for me.  And I do think regardless how much he has progressed, I think he’s still comfortable with whatever part of his relationship with Jack that he “sacrificed” or “held back” for his daughters.  I know you didn’t intend for me to infer that Ennis has learned that he should not have put his daughters ahead of his love for Jack… maybe that he’s learned that a better balance should have been found?

[jpwagoneer1964]

 

Ummm, I think he’s learned that Jack was “in love” with Ennis… that Ennis was “in love” with Jack… that they maybe could have made a go of a life together…  BUT, I don’t think he’s totally overcome his fears – that’s too “Brady Bunch” for me.  And I do think regardless how much he has progressed, I think he’s still comfortable with whatever part of his relationship with Jack that he “sacrificed” or “held back” for his daughters.  I know you didn’t intend for me to infer that Ennis has learned that he should not have put his daughters ahead of his love for Jack… maybe that he’s learned that a better balance should have been found?

I think when his daughters were younger has was right to put them ahead of Jack. In doing so he put Jack family ahead as well. Not enough parents do this, failing to realize ther security and well being need to be put first.

I don't think Randell was much more that an option to Jack. After the dance he doesn't respond and has a look the suggests he wishes he couldn't this be  Ennis

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I think when his daughters were younger has was right to put them ahead of Jack. In doing so he put Jack family ahead as well. Not enough parents do this, failing to realize ther security and well being need to be put first.

Sure enough.

I don't think Randell was much more that an option to Jack.

But, over time... ?

After the dance he doesn't respond and has a look the suggests he wishes he couldn't this be  Ennis

Great big "Sure enough!"

[Mikaela]

My God, people, how do you find the *time* for these lengthy and illuminating posts? I'm in awe!   


I've stated elsewhere that when it comes to "Did Ennis know the "thing" was love" I agree completely with Katherine. And when it comes to;  would/did Jack quit Ennis - what does "quit" really mean - would he quit for the sake of his love for Ennis - I'm entirely with Ruthlessly. Can't think of any argument in either case that hasn't been put forth much more eloquently by others here already.

One thing (even that's such a loaded word in BBM) I have been mulling over, is that if I think that Jack would "officially" quit Ennis at the November meet-up, however he'd choose to do that; - if he came to realize (and I agree with him) during their last meeting when Ennis broke down that he *would* have to quit for Ennis's sake - because their relationship was killing Ennis and not just himself -  if losing Jack was necessary for Ennis to be able to move forward in life or to at least come to terms with his own life or manage the day-to-day "being Ennis" - why doesn't Jack's death work the  same way? Or does it? But I see this has been touched upon in the most recent exchange of posts, so I'll count myself answered, if still actively mulling this over.

Another thing I've been mulling over is whether Jack subconsciously - I don't ever think he'd do this consciously - realized that one way of managing the quitting (again, quitting for the sake of Ennis, for his love of Ennis) would be his own death; ie. whether in his pain and grief over the whole situation he got careless and tempted fate after his return to Texas and so caught the eye of the local Mr. Del Mar Senior versions. I surely don't think Jack is the type for this - but his expression as he watches Ennis drive away after the dozy flashback is deeply disconcerting for anyone who loves Jack's eternal optimism. Wouldn't it hit him all the harder once he realized that quitting seemed the only way?



What I mainly wanted to attach some comments to, was the Randall situation. There are several posts discussing this, I'm going to quote this one from Jeff as a jump-off point:

By the time of Jack's death, I guess he and Randall had known each other for about three years, so you might think Jack would know by then whether or not Randall's intentions were honorable, as the saying used to be, but maybe our dear, optimistic Jack didn't really know. Or maybe he was just day-dreaming out loud.

I just can't get my head around the Randall we meet in the film ever moving to Lightning Flat. That well-groomed, smooth (I happen to heartily dislike him making the moves on someone new right in front of their wives' eyes), college-educated, not-very-mechanical man, moving up to the poverty and loneliness of the Twist Ranch to "lick it into shape", braving the condescending ways of OMT? I just can't see it. I can't see how Jack would have thought that could ever work, even. Doesn't mean Randall and Jack didn't talk about it, doesn't mean Randall can't have been entirely serious about Jack, doesn't mean they didn't have a relationship going for years, but..... no. I could much rather see Randall suggesting they move out of Childress and find work and a life together elsewhere, but then in a town somewhere. Like the short story says, perhaps if it happens to others (than Jack and Ennis) they move to Denver. A degree in Animal Husbandry still didn't mean he can't get any other sort of job, does it?

I do however think that when Jack talked to his parents of this new man, the ranch neighbor he was giing to bring up to the ranch, - he *was* talking of Randall and not some other person. (For one thing, the shooting script included a scene where Randall lets Jack out of his car and they are observed by some grumpy guys who don't seem to appreciate two men behaving in that particular way. This must have been filmed since those guys appear in the BBM trailer and in all probability are the ones who kill Jack in the telephone conversation "flashback". Now why it was cut in the final film - I'd say it has more to do with film pacing and Ang Lee's love of ambiguity, wanting to make the cause of Jack's death ambiguous - than any wish to indicate Jack was involved with someone else than Randall).

So. Jack was talking of Randall to his parents. And in all likelihood he came directly from his last meeting with Ennis when he did that (He was going up to see his folks then for a day or two; and I don't think he went up to his folks many times if at all without having a meet-up with Ennis at the same time). I think he mentioned Randall not because he necessarily believed in it, nor because he and Randall had made any sort of final decision about it - but because he needed to officially start "quitting" Ennis as soon as possible, while his decision held firm. To make it as much of a road of no return for himself as possible. And where better to do that than the place where he had indulged in speaking his daydreams of ranching up with Ennis out loud? Once he'd said that it was over out loud too, it would be so much more real. And no better way to say it is over than to introduce the new guy at the same time. Makes it sound that much more final.

(Plus, for the sake of the film and the story, Jack needed to say that about the new guy to his parents, for Ennis to hear it from OMT. I still think Heath Ledger should have gotten that Oscar on the basis of his reaction to that piece of news from OMT alone - imagine what that part of the film (and the following scene of Ennis finding the shirts) would have lost if the news to Ennis that Jack was leaving him hadn't been there....)



ETA: I sent a PM with my response to Katherine concerning the "arrogance" issue yesterday. Suffice it to say, my sentiments completely echo what has already been expressed here by others. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Bravo, Mikaela!

Enjoyed reading your points about Randall! Ver' good! 

It is kind of sleazy for him to put the moves on Jack right in front of their wives--not that LaShawn would have noticed! She never shut up long enough to notice! I"m still finding it difficult to wrap my mind around the notion that Randall ultimately wanted more from Jack than a couple of weekends a year at his boss's croppie house on Lake Kemp.

Funny as it may seem to some, though, I do think the look on Jack's face when Randall makes his proposition indicates that this is the first time Jack's felt himself the pursued instead of the pursuer--wakes him up to the notion that there might be someone out there besides Ennis, even if it didn't turn out to be Randall.

[ednbarby]

So. Jack was talking of Randall to his parents. And in all likelihood he came directly from his last meeting with Ennis when he did that (He was going up to see his folks then for a day or two; and I don't think he went up to his folks many times if at all without having a meet-up with Ennis at the same time). I think he mentioned Randall not because he necessarily believed in it, nor because he and Randall had made any sort of final decision about it - but because he needed to officially start "quitting" Ennis as soon as possible, while his decision held firm. To make it as much of a road of no return for himself as possible. And where better to do that than the place where he had indulged in speaking his daydreams of ranching up with Ennis out loud? Once he'd said that it was over out loud too, it would be so much more real. And no better way to say it is over than to introduce the new guy at the same time. Makes it sound that much more final.

Bravo, Mikaela, from me, too.  I think this is spot on accurate.  Or at least exactly how and why I'd picture Jack mentioning Randall to his parents on his next (and probably last  ) visit to them.
 

[dly64]

Another thing I've been mulling over is whether Jack subconsciously - I don't ever think he'd do this consciously - realized that one way of managing the quitting (again, quitting for the sake of Ennis, for his love of Ennis) would be his own death; ie. whether in his pain and grief over the whole situation he got careless and tempted fate after his return to Texas and so caught the eye of the local Mr. Del Mar Senior versions. I surely don't think Jack is the type for this - but his expression as he watches Ennis drive away after the dozy flashback is deeply disconcerting for anyone who loves Jack's eternal optimism. Wouldn't it hit him all the harder once he realized that quitting seemed the only way?

It’s interesting that you mention this point. I often felt that when Ennis left and Jack looked on … Jack knew he would never see Ennis again. How? I don’t know. It’s hard for me to believe that Jack would be careless. However, I can’t see Jack being able to “quit” Ennis, either (by “quit” I mean releasing Ennis … setting Ennis free. I don’t mean, in any way shape or form, that Jack would stop loving Ennis. That would never happen). Jack and Ennis’ psyche’s were intertwined. One was not complete without the other. The screenplay alludes to this:

“… Jack, much older now watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance …”

I know I get a lot of grief for referring to the short story and screenplay since the film stands on its own … which is true. However, the screenplay offers some background and motivation that can not be explicitly expressed on the screen. The above quote, IMO, is one of those instances. As is the following …

“…they hug one another, a fierce, desperate embrace – managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

I just can't get my head around the Randall we meet in the film ever moving to Lightning Flat. That well-groomed, smooth (I happen to heartily dislike him making the moves on someone new right in front of their wives' eyes), college-educated, not-very-mechanical man, moving up to the poverty and loneliness of the Twist Ranch to "lick it into shape", braving the condescending ways of OMT? I just can't see it. I can't see how Jack would have thought that could ever work, even. Doesn't mean Randall and Jack didn't talk about it, doesn't mean Randall can't have been entirely serious about Jack, doesn't mean they didn't have a relationship going for years, but..... no. I could much rather see Randall suggesting they move out of Childress and find work and a life together elsewhere, but then in a town somewhere. Like the short story says, perhaps if it happens to others (than Jack and Ennis) they move to Denver. A degree in Animal Husbandry still didn't mean he can't get any other sort of job, does it?

Let’s just say that we meet Jack for the first time (at the benefit dance). Albeit, he’s not college educated. However, he is well-groomed and makes good money. His wife is educated. How would we see him? We have no idea about Randall’s background (with the exception that he is a college graduate and is “technically challenged”). For all we know, he could have grown up with humble roots. Furthermore, we can guess that the time period is the late 70’s. A ranch foreman shacked up with another guy probably wouldn’t fly … no matter where the location.

I do however think that when Jack talked to his parents of this new man, the ranch neighbor he was going to bring up to the ranch, - he *was* talking of Randall and not some other person. (For one thing, the shooting script included a scene where Randall lets Jack out of his car and they are observed by some grumpy guys who don't seem to appreciate two men behaving in that particular way. This must have been filmed since those guys appear in the BBM trailer and in all probability are the ones who kill Jack in the telephone conversation "flashback". Now why it was cut in the final film - I'd say it has more to do with film pacing and Ang Lee's love of ambiguity, wanting to make the cause of Jack's death ambiguous - than any wish to indicate Jack was involved with someone else than Randall).

OT: I always wondered how those guys would have fit in. (That’s why we need a special edition. There are a few scenes on the trailer that don’t show up in the film). BTW … where were you able to find the shooting script? I think it would be interesting to review.

So. Jack was talking of Randall to his parents. And in all likelihood he came directly from his last meeting with Ennis when he did that (He was going up to see his folks then for a day or two; and I don't think he went up to his folks many times if at all without having a meet-up with Ennis at the same time). I think he mentioned Randall not because he necessarily believed in it, nor because he and Randall had made any sort of final decision about it - but because he needed to officially start "quitting" Ennis as soon as possible, while his decision held firm. To make it as much of a road of no return for himself as possible. And where better to do that than the place where he had indulged in speaking his daydreams of ranching up with Ennis out loud? Once he'd said that it was over out loud too, it would be so much more real. And no better way to say it is over than to introduce the new guy at the same time. Makes it sound that much more final.

This is where I most strongly disagree. Jack was going to go to see his parents for a day or two before they had their row. My feeling has always been that Jack went to his parents’ because the shirts were there. That gave him the chance to be close to a part of Ennis, when he could not be with him physically (harkening back to when Jack tells Ennis that he misses him so much …. ). He was, more than likely, having an affair with Randall for awhile. IMO, Jack was seeing Randall solely out of frustration and need. I don’t see that Jack really cared that much for Randall. I know that is a controversial opinion. However, I think Jack saw Randall as a way to meet his sexual needs, not much more. (i.e. “I can’t make it on a couple of high altitude f--ks once or twice a year.”)

Jack did need the companionship of a man vs. a woman. Obviously, he could not communicate with Lureen and their sex life was high and dry. Randall could give that to him as well. However, I believe that Jack would have continued the “fishing trips” with Ennis. I am hearing people say (in this thread) that Jack wouldn’t do that to Randall or Ennis. But wasn’t that what he was already doing? Randall certainly didn’t know about Ennis and Ennis did not know about Randall. Ennis instinctually knew that Jack was hiding something from him … “What I don’t know …. All them things that I don’t know …could get you killed if I come to know them.” At that moment, Ennis was hurt and felt betrayed. However, he was unable to release Jack, as Jack was unable to release Ennis.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I know I get a lot of grief for referring to the short story and screenplay since the film stands on its own … which is true. However, the screenplay offers some background and motivation that can not be explicitly expressed on the screen. The above quote, IMO, is one of those instances. As is the following …

“…they hug one another, a fierce, desperate embrace – managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

You are realizing, of course, that those lines in the screenplay come almost verbatim from Annie Proulx?

BTW … where were you able to find the shooting script? I think it would be interesting to review.

OMG, I would KILL for a copy of the shooting script! Ooops, sorry folks. ... 

My feeling has always been that Jack went to his parents’ because the shirts were there.

With that point have to respectfully disagree, as it seems to me a bit of an overstatement. Actually, I think Jack made all those trips to Lightning Flat over the years because, regardless of his poor relationship with his father, I think he felt an admirable sense of responsibility to his parents. I never bring the texts with me to work, but I remember, in the story anyway, how Annie Proulx has Jack's mother make such a point of telling Ennis that Jack came back every summer to help out on the ranch, mowing (hay, for winter feed), and mending gates, and so forth.

I guess it's a  measure of how far I've fallen from the true faith, but I've even begun to wonder whether it's possible Jack had forgotten that those shirts were stuck in the back of that closet. ...

Just wonderin' if it's possible. ... 

[David]

It does seem doubtful that Randall would have gone up to Lightning Flat to live with Jack.     Yet, if I had to listen to LaShawn cackle like that 24/7, I'd run away far and fast!   LOL.

The only things we know 100% is that Jack met Randall in 1978 and he mentions Randall to his Dad 5 years later as someone he wants to move up to Lightning Flat with.   So what does that imply?    That Jack eventually did cave in to Randalls propositions.   That perhaps Jack and Randall were both fed up with their wives?

But as his Dad said, Jack was all talk, no action.      I'm guessing Jack went back to Texas, got horny and made a move on the wrong guy.   A guy with friends and a tire iron.  Perhaps he did say something to Randall?  Maybe Randall said "No"?   Thats when Jack took off looking for someone to get laid with.(just like when Ennis shot him down and he went to Mexico)   We'll never know.   Only Anne Proulx knows and she's not talking.   

[Mikaela]

I guess it's a  measure of how far I've fallen from the true faith, but I've even begun to wonder whether it's possible Jack had forgotten that those shirts were stuck in the back of that closet. ...

 

Well, that would be the ultimate tragic irony!

I guess anything's possible, but..... No.  No, I can't believe that. I've imagined Jack so many times, bringing those shirts out of the hidey-hole and caressing them, smelling Ennis's, holding on to them reverently just as Ennis does later on. As long as those shirts were hidden in the back of his closet, it proved Jack still loved Ennis. As long as Jack loved Ennis, he'd hold on to the shirts and keep them safe. Even if he "quit" Ennis, as discussed in this thread; - stopped seeing him, set Ennis free - he'd still safeguard the shirts for remembrance, because he still loved. I'm a romantic in this regard - I *cannot* believe anything else.


There are other things I'd like to comment on/reply to, but no time right now. Back later.  

[Jeff Wrangler]

I guess it's a  measure of how far I've fallen from the true faith, but I've even begun to wonder whether it's possible Jack had forgotten that those shirts were stuck in the back of that closet. ...

Well, that would be the ultimate tragic irony!

I guess anything's possible, but..... No.  No, I can't believe that. I've imagined Jack so many times, bringing those shirts out of the hidey-hole and caressing them, smelling Ennis's, holding on to them reverently just as Ennis does later on. As long as those shirts were hidden in the back of his closet, it proved Jack still loved Ennis. As long as Jack loved Ennis, he'd hold on to the shirts and keep them safe. Even if he "quit" Ennis, as discussed in this thread; - stopped seeing him, set Ennis free - he'd still safeguard the shirts for remembrance, because he still loved. I'm a romantic in this regard - I *cannot* believe anything else.

It is a bit of a stretch. That's a fairly open closet, and presumably Jack is in and out of it on his visits home, using some of the few pieces of clothing that are in the closet while he's visiting his folks and doing ranch work.

I guess what is provoking in me the idea that he might have forgotten about the shirts is the thought that if Jack had truly--truly--decided to "quit" Ennis, and if those shirts were still prominent in his consciousness, it would have been logical for him to get rid of them on his final trip to Lightning Flat. This is suggesting to me the possiblity that at some time in that nearly 20 years, he stopped taking out those shirts out of the closet and "holding on to them reverently" on this trips home and eventually just plain forgot about them. 

All we really know is that in the end, the shirts were still there.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

My God, people, how do you find the *time* for these lengthy and illuminating posts?

I know my posts can get quite lengthy… sorry … but if they’re illuminating, too, then I don’t feel so bad.  I find just about every post here to be illuminating – that’s why I respond to just about every one of them.  You all make for some pretty good and lively discussions  Makes me feel all perky.

I've stated elsewhere that when it comes to "Did Ennis know the "thing" was love" I agree completely with Katherine.

But there are some distinctions to be made here.  I agree Ennis knew it was love.  But what did he *do* with that knowledge?  How did he react to it?  To what extent did he “know” it?  For how long – both chronically and acutely?  Did he let it rise to the surface and remain?  Did he define his relationship that way?  He did everything he could to distance himself from allowing “it’s love” to be incorporated into his life.  This was one of the greatest destructive effects of homophobia on the poor guy – the inability to admit to himself that he was “in love” with a man.

…if losing Jack was necessary for Ennis to be able to move forward in life or to at least come to terms with his own life or manage the day-to-day "being Ennis" - why doesn't Jack's death work the  same way? Or does it? But I see this has been touched upon in the most recent exchange of posts, so I'll count myself answered, if still actively mulling this over.

It’s still worth mulling over.  First, we could get into an entirely new thread discussing whether Jack’s death does or doesn’t allow Ennis to move forward or come to terms.  I think the important thing to remember here is that because of Jack’s death, it really becomes a moot point.  We all know that Ennis learned some things about life and love – too little, too late – but, there are still too many clues that Ennis will continue to live a lonely life and never love again.  Aren’t our only real clues that he might move on 1) the little bits of learning that we see he did at the very end, and 2) his agreeing to go to Jr.’s wedding?  Two wouldn’t have happened but for one.  And two is simply the most important day in Jr.’s life – Ennis mentions its importance.  Does this really add up to Ennis “coming to terms?”

Second, the focus should not be on “…if losing Jack was necessary for Ennis…”  Regardless whether it would or could cause Ennis to “move on” or “come to terms,” Jack releasing Ennis from his captivity was necessary for Jack to do because Jack loved Ennis.  That’s what true love makes one do.  It makes one do the right thing – sublimating oneself and one’s needs for the one one loves.  If Ennis “moves on” as a result, great.  “Come to terms,” even better.  Regardless its outcome, it’s what Ennis needed and Jack gave him what he needed.

Another thing I've been mulling over is whether Jack subconsciously - I don't ever think he'd do this consciously - realized that one way of managing the quitting (again, quitting for the sake of Ennis, for his love of Ennis) would be his own death…

A little too far for even me.   

I just can't get my head around the Randall we meet in the film ever moving to Lightning Flat.

You make a lot of very good points here.  (I didn’t quote them all, but they’re there in your post above for anyone who wants to re-read them.)

For one thing, the shooting script included a scene where Randall lets Jack out of his car and they are observed by some grumpy guys who don't seem to appreciate two men behaving in that particular way. This must have been filmed since those guys appear in the BBM trailer and in all probability are the ones who kill Jack in the telephone conversation "flashback".

OK – please indulge my little rant… I hate going to extraneous things that just aren’t “Brokeback Mountain.”  To me, BBM is the film as we see it with our eyes and hear it with our ears.  The short story, the screenplay, the script, comments from Proulx, Lee, the actors… it’s all just speculation and interpretation.  The film does not follow the short story, the screenplay, or the script in every way, and in many instances, not in key ways.  Facts were changed and cannot be translated from any one to any one of the others.  Same with motivations – except for “well, possibly what’s going on here…”  But that’s no different than any other interpretation any one else would come up with.  The people involved have all said many things about BBM.  Too often, they contradict each other and they contradict themselves.  Too often, they change their story over time.  And one of the biggest offenders in this regard is Proulx.  Yes, she’s the author of the short story, but she’s not the author of the film.  Even Lee’s intentions for what he wanted to do with the film and get across through the film did not all come to pass.  The film is as we see and hear it. 

Sorry for that.  Now, that having been said, I’ll get into the point of the comment I quoted above.  What I read is that the scene of which you speak was not filmed.  The guys we see in the trailer were filmed as a part of the scene at the beginning of the movie where Ennis walks in (from the semi that brought him to Signal) past an auto garage and the three men look at Ennis.  Ennis sees them.  The point behind this scene having been filmed was that when Ennis’ imagination ran wild and he envisioned Jack being murdered, the three men who Ennis saw murder Jack in his imagination were the same men Ennis had walked past on his first morning in Signal.  The implication being that Ennis was so scared and homophobic as he walked into Signal that those three men stuck in his mind until his imagination pulled them out twenty years later.  The scene wasn’t included in the film because Lee knew that if people realized that the three men beating up Jack were those same three men Ennis had walked past twenty years earlier, the whole “Jack was murdered” scenario would be obviously bogus to the viewer.  It’s interesting that Lee thought that would be too much of a clue that Jack wasn’t really murdered, but Lee obviously didn’t think that showing an imagination coming out of Ennis’ overly fearful imagination would be too much of a clue.  Go figure.

I think he mentioned Randall not because he necessarily believed in it, nor because he and Randall had made any sort of final decision about it - but because he needed to officially start "quitting" Ennis as soon as possible, while his decision held firm. To make it as much of a road of no return for himself as possible. And where better to do that than the place where he had indulged in speaking his daydreams of ranching up with Ennis out loud? Once he'd said that it was over out loud too, it would be so much more real. And no better way to say it is over than to introduce the new guy at the same time. Makes it sound that much more final.

Excellent take on it.  Spot on, if you ask me.

…imagine what that part of the film (and the following scene of Ennis finding the shirts) would have lost if the news to Ennis that Jack was leaving him hadn't been there....

Another great one.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I"m still finding it difficult to wrap my mind around the notion that Randall ultimately wanted more from Jack than a couple of weekends a year at his boss's croppie house on Lake Kemp.

I don’t have any problem with going with this interpretation.  I’d like to throw out though that it’s also possible that… Randall was gay and wanted gay sex.  In that time and place it was hard to come by.  He noticed “something” about Jack.  He propositioned.  Jack accepted.  (All of this is over a period of time, by the way.)  So they got together for gay sex needs from time to time – probably more often than Jack and Ennis.  … Now, as this kind of relationship goes on, it seems to me quite likely that a friendship would develop and that could easily lead to non-sexual needing and wanting, and ultimately to love… caring and affection.  Either way, there was something that made Jack bring it up to his folks.

…I do think the look on Jack's face when Randall makes his proposition indicates that this is the first time Jack's felt himself the pursued instead of the pursuer …

I take this is “gay sex-wise” since Lureen pursued Jack once.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

However, I can’t see Jack being able to “quit” Ennis, either (by “quit” I mean releasing Ennis … setting Ennis free. I don’t mean, in any way shape or form, that Jack would stop loving Ennis. That would never happen).

Hmmmm.  I’ve said before that Jack was faced with the choice of releasing Ennis or holding him captive.  Does this fit in with your belief of “not quit?”

Jack and Ennis’ psyche’s were intertwined. One was not complete without the other.

Which is why I believe Jack never stopped loving Ennis, but did release Ennis.

I know I get a lot of grief for referring to the short story and screenplay since the film stands on its own … which is true. However, the screenplay offers some background and motivation that can not be explicitly expressed on the screen. The above quote, IMO, is one of those instances. As is the following …

“…they hug one another, a fierce, desperate embrace – managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

The problem here is that what you have quoted contradicts what we see in the film.  It is not true that nothing ended, or nothing began, or nothing was resolved.  This is also internally contradicted in the short story itself when the short story talks about truths and lies.  These are new beginnings and new endings.  Also, in the film, there was not “no news.”  There was “news.”  And the finality of *nothing* (three times) is contradicted by “almost.”  It's interesting writing -- to be honest, I wouldn't even call it good writing; it's too much like something one would read in a fantasy romance novel -- but it's internally conflicted.

For all we know, he [Randall] could have grown up with humble roots.

Well, Jack did love a little dog.  (There, now *I* did it.  Shame on me!)

OT: I always wondered how those guys would have fit in. (That’s why we need a special edition. There are a few scenes on the trailer that don’t show up in the film). BTW … where were you able to find the shooting script? I think it would be interesting to review.

Oh, no.  Not more confusion!       This is exactly why I hope they never put out a special edition DVD.

This is where I most strongly disagree. Jack was going to go to see his parents for a day or two before they had their row. My feeling has always been that Jack went to his parents’ because the shirts were there. That gave him the chance to be close to a part of Ennis, when he could not be with him physically (harkening back to when Jack tells Ennis that he misses him so much …. )

This confuses me.  Jack told Ennis that he was going up to Lightning Flat.  Then they argued.  Then Jack went up to Lightning Flat.  Right?  I’m not seeing a distinction here.

I think Jack went up to Lightning Flat to see his folks and help out a bit.  When he said to Ennis that he was going up to Lightning Flat, why would the reason be to see the shirts when Ennis was standing right in front Jack?  Because the shirts were more special to Jack than the man himself?  I’m sure you didn’t mean that.  But I am confused.

He was, more than likely, having an affair with Randall for awhile. IMO, Jack was seeing Randall solely out of frustration and need. I don’t see that Jack really cared that much for Randall. I know that is a controversial opinion. However, I think Jack saw Randall as a way to meet his sexual needs, not much more. (i.e. “I can’t make it on a couple of high altitude f--ks once or twice a year.”)

But is this the kind of man that Jack is portrayed to us as?  Meaningless sex, on-going with one individual, for a period of years, and yet no feelings for the individual?  Jack probably had meaningless sex with different individuals over a period of years in Mexico.  But, Randall was Jack’s “one and only” in Childress.  I think…

However, I believe that Jack would have continued the “fishing trips” with Ennis. I am hearing people say (in this thread) that Jack wouldn’t do that to Randall or Ennis. But wasn’t that what he was already doing?

I have a hard time wrapping myself around this one.  Would you still say the same thing in light of the fact that at the breakdown Jack became acutely aware of the destructive effects on Ennis due to his inability to keep his worlds in harmony?  This is the part I have the hardest time coming to grips with: Jack loving Ennis so much that he chooses to keep Ennis in suffering.  I don’t see Jack that way.

However, he was unable to release Jack, as Jack was unable to release Ennis.

Why?  Why were they unable?  My argument has been that it’s the great love that exists between them that not only makes Jack “able,” but makes it impossible to do anything else.  I very well may be missing something, but I don't understand a love that keeps your lover in agony, turmoil, chaos – in chains created by an inner conflict that goes to the very core of Ennis’ being.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

My feeling has always been that Jack went to his parents’ because the shirts were there.

With that point have to respectfully disagree, as it seems to me a bit of an overstatement. Actually, I think Jack made all those trips to Lightning Flat over the years because, regardless of his poor relationship with his father, I think he felt an admirable sense of responsibility to his parents.

I agree with this.  Maybe this is what I was confused about in the post you quoted here.  Was the poster talking about each time Jack went up to Lightning Flat?  I thought the poster meant that particular time, going up there right after the final lake scene.  Maybe this is where I got confused?

I guess it's a  measure of how far I've fallen from the true faith, but I've even begun to wonder whether it's possible Jack had forgotten that those shirts were stuck in the back of that closet. ...

Just wonderin' if it's possible. ...

It’s valid to wonder.  I can’t see it, though.  The Twist home and ranch don’t look like they hold too many other things to think about whilst Jack would be milling about the place.

If he had forgotten them, wouldn’t there have to be a diminishment of their significance to Jack?  Do you think there’s any reason to believe this?  I’m not sure.  Jack didn’t take them to Texas could be used as an argument… he didn’t take them to Texas because they weren’t that significant to him or he had forgotten about them.  But, I’ve always felt that he didn’t take them to Texas because how would he *really* hide them?  On another thought, would he *really* have to?  He could have taken the shirts to Texas and had Lureen found them and asked about them, Jack could have simply said he had a friend once, they got in a fight, and parted, and this was Jack’s way of remembering a lost friend.  He wouldn’t have to connect them with Ennis at all.  And it seems as if Lureen probably wouldn’t have given a second thought… after telling Jack that that’s silly.  I dunno.  Good question.  You’ve created a coffee pot handle for which I’m circling around trying to find.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Yet, if I had to listen to LaShawn cackle like that 24/7, I'd run away far and fast!   LOL.

Hmmmm.  I always thought she was kinda perky.

But as his Dad said, Jack was all talk, no action.

Jack’s dad did not say this.  He said:  “He had some half-baked notion…” and “… so he says.  But, like most of Jack’s ideas… never come to pass.”

I don’t see this as being the same.  But even if one does want to equate the two, we can be certain that Jack’s dad was wrong if we go with the "all talk, no action" take on it.  Jack talked, but he also acted.  He always took steps to make what he said come to pass.  He wasn’t always successful, and sometimes he got the wrong results, but sometimes he got the right result.  But, after all is said and done, Jack did try.

Only Anne Proulx knows and she's not talking.

How could she know?  She didn’t write the film.  And the film and Proulx’s story are two distinctly separate creations with different characters, different events, different plotlines, etc.  But I already went off on this tangent.  Sorry.

[jpwagoneer1964]

If he had forgotten them, wouldn’t there have to be a diminishment of their significance to Jack?  Do you think there’s any reason to believe this?  I’m not sure.  Jack didn’t take them to Texas could be used as an argument… he didn’t take them to Texas because they weren’t that significant to him or he had forgotten about them.  But, I’ve always felt that he didn’t take them to Texas because how would he *really* hide them?  On another thought, would he *really* have to?  He could have taken the shirts to Texas and had Lureen found them and asked about them, Jack could have simply said he had a friend once, they got in a fight, and parted, and this was Jack’s way of remembering a lost friend.  He wouldn’t have to connect them with Ennis at all.  And it seems as if Lureen probably wouldn’t have given a second thought… after telling Jack that that’s silly.  I dunno.  Good question.  You’ve created a coffee pot handle for which I’m circling around trying to find.

I don'tr think Jack had forgotten the shirts at all. They were best protected at lightning Flat where his room was kept as he was a boy. His main thoughts about them were he was secure know that the symbol of HIm and Enni's was safe. In Childress they likely could have fallen victim to Goodwill drive.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

As long as those shirts were hidden in the back of his closet, it proved Jack still loved Ennis. As long as Jack loved Ennis, he'd hold on to the shirts and keep them safe. Even if he "quit" Ennis, as discussed in this thread; - stopped seeing him, set Ennis free - he'd still safeguard the shirts for remembrance, because he still loved.

I agree 100%.  In fact, after quitting Ennis those shirts would take on an even stronger significance to Jack – in the little bit of life he had left to live.

Unless of course, Jack stole something else from Ennis at the final lake scene.  Maybe something he could take to Texas -- like Ennis' creel case... or his fishin' rod... maybe his wallet?  In fact, maybe that’s why Jack looks so distressed as Ennis drives away… Jack *tried* to take a remembrance of Ennis but wasn’t able to pull it off this time…

I wonder if Jack stole candy from the five-and-dime when he was a little boy?

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I guess what is provoking in me the idea that he might have forgotten about the shirts is the thought that if Jack had truly--truly--decided to "quit" Ennis, and if those shirts were still prominent in his consciousness, it would have been logical for him to get rid of them on his final trip to Lightning Flat.

But, once again, “quit” doesn’t mean “stop loving.”  It means “let be.”  I would think that after quitting Ennis the shirts would take on an even more significant role in Jack’s life.

All we really know is that in the end, the shirts were still there.

We sure do.  And this is a good thing.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

I don'r think Jack had forgotten the shirts at all. They were best protected at lightning Flat where his room was kept as he was a boy. His main thoughts about them were he was secure know that the symbol of HIm and enni's was safe. In Childress they likely could have fallen victim to Goodwill drive.

Absolutely!  I agree.  And a great big LOL for the last line!   

[dly64]

Actually, I think Jack made all those trips to Lightning Flat over the years because, regardless of his poor relationship with his father, I think he felt an admirable sense of responsibility to his parents. I never bring the texts with me to work, but I remember, in the story anyway, how Annie Proulx has Jack's mother make such a point of telling Ennis that Jack came back every summer to help out on the ranch, mowing (hay, for winter feed), and mending gates, and so forth.

I guess it's a measure of how far I've fallen from the true faith, but I've even begun to wonder whether it's possible Jack had forgotten that those shirts were stuck in the back of that closet. ...

This confuses me.  Jack told Ennis that he was going up to Lightning Flat.  Then they argued.  Then Jack went up to Lightning Flat.  Right?  I’m not seeing a distinction here.

I think Jack went up to Lightning Flat to see his folks and help out a bit.  When he said to Ennis that he was going up to Lightning Flat, why would the reason be to see the shirts when Ennis was standing right in front Jack?  Because the shirts were more special to Jack than the man himself?  I’m sure you didn’t mean that.  But I am confused.

Okay you guys …. Let me clarify. This is one of those cases where I knew what I was talking about, but didn’t express it very clearly.

First of all … Jeff … I think it is completely impossible to think that Jack ever forgot about those shirts. It symbolized the two into one … a metaphor of marriage vows … “the two shall become one.” Ennis then responded by making his vow to Jack … “Jack, I swear …”

Now … what I meant by Jack going to Lightning Flat. I am not saying that when Jack went there he didn’t help out around the ranch. What I am saying is that Jack’s primary motivation is not to go there to mow and fix gates, etc. I think Jack tended to go up to Lightning Flat after he had just been with Ennis … not because he wanted to see the shirts instead of Ennis. Rather, he went to see the shirts to be close to a part of Ennis after Ennis left.  I am not sure if I am explaining this very eloquently … let me break it down another way ….

There is a theme of Ennis leaving/ disappointing Jack:
•   Ennis leaves Jack to go up to the sheep after TS1
•   Ennis leaves Jack post mountain
•   Ennis makes it clear that he and Jack will never “ranch up” together after their reunion
•   After Ennis’ divorce and Jack drives up 14 hours because he thinks Ennis has decided to have a life with him … Ennis turns him away
•   After the “dozy embrace” … Ennis rides away
•   After the row, Ennis drives away

Every time Ennis leaves, it reminds Jack of what he could have had. Jack misses Ennis to the point he can hardly stand it. When he goes to Lightning Flat … the shirts are a reminder of what they had on the mountain; freedom from rural homophobia and from their own internal fears and struggles. They could be free to love each other openly. They could be free from glares and speculations. It was just the two of them.
   

Oh, no.  Not more confusion!       This is exactly why I hope they never put out a special edition DVD.

NO! NO! NO!!! A Special Edition would be great … not to change the actual movie, but to see deleted scenes and hear commentaries. I’m telling you … It would be KICK BUTT!!

But is this the kind of man that Jack is portrayed to us as?  Meaningless sex, on-going with one individual, for a period of years, and yet no feelings for the individual?  Jack probably had meaningless sex with different individuals over a period of years in Mexico.  But, Randall was Jack’s “one and only” in Childress.  I think…

I tend to state, a bit too strongly, that Jack and Randall primarily have a sexual relationship.  I am not saying that Randall isn’t a companion. However, Jack’s reason for getting involved with Randall in the first place, IMO, was to meet Jack’s sexual needs. Randall was no Ennis.

I have a hard time wrapping myself around this one.  Would you still say the same thing in light of the fact that at the breakdown Jack became acutely aware of the destructive effects on Ennis due to his inability to keep his worlds in harmony?  This is the part I have the hardest time coming to grips with: Jack loving Ennis so much that he chooses to keep Ennis in suffering.  I don’t see Jack that way.

Doesn’t Ennis keep the relationship going with Jack even though he knows Jack is suffering? Ennis is acutely aware of the toll that their relationship has taken on Jack, but is unable to let him go. IMO, this is the same thing with Jack. It isn’t that either one wants to see the other in turmoil and pain. However, their relationship has been hard. It has been difficult. It has been painful. It has been separate. Despite all of this, they are part of each other. They complete each other. They represent the yin and the yang … two opposites becoming a whole.

Why?  Why were they unable?  My argument has been that it’s the great love that exists between them that not only makes Jack “able,” but makes it impossible to do anything else.  I very well may be missing something, but I don't understand a love that keeps your lover in agony, turmoil, chaos – in chains created by an inner conflict that goes to the very core of Ennis’ being.

You have a compelling argument. I just can’t see Jack being able to release Ennis, as Ennis is unable to release Jack. They are too enmeshed. It is not that either one is selfish. It is because they love each other to the core that makes it impossible to let each go free. That is why Jack’s death is so profound. Even in death, Ennis cannot let Jack go. He swears his love for Jack …. even in death, they do not part.

[Mikaela]

Now again, there's so much I'd like to comment on and Waaaaaaah! Never enough time, never enough!

I'll reply to this  one first:

OK – please indulge my little rant… I hate going to extraneous things that just aren’t “Brokeback Mountain.”  To me, BBM is the film as we see it with our eyes and hear it with our ears.  The short story, the screenplay, the script, comments from Proulx, Lee, the actors… it’s all just speculation and interpretation.  The film does not follow the short story, the screenplay, or the script in every way, and in many instances, not in key ways.  Facts were changed and cannot be translated from any one to any one of the others.  Same with motivations – except for “well, possibly what’s going on here…”  But that’s no different than any other interpretation any one else would come up with.  The people involved have all said many things about BBM.  Too often, they contradict each other and they contradict themselves.  Too often, they change their story over time.  And one of the biggest offenders in this regard is Proulx.  Yes, she’s the author of the short story, but she’s not the author of the film.  Even Lee’s intentions for what he wanted to do with the film and get across through the film did not all come to pass.  The film is as we see and hear it.  It’s not fair to try and change what we see and hear by going to extraneous sources.

I have to heartily and respectfully disagree. I think the short story, the script versions and the final published script, as well as interviews given by the producers, script writers, director and actors, are all relevant and very interesting to consider for me when I ponder the film and the characters and message – what it means to me and how it impacts me.

Producers, writers, director and actors have all talked about how the original short story made an impact on *them*, and/or how the script that was “floating around Hollywood” made a similar impact. The original story and the script(s) informed and inspired their understanding of the film they ended up making, everything we see when we see the film. It informed and inspired the way they presented the characters, the messages and symbolism that they wanted to get across. The short story and script(s) represented the foundation on which the marvelous structure that we now can pop into the DVD player was firmly built. Therefore, it’s not in any way extraneous to me to consider these sources and that foundation when grappling with understanding and interpreting the film, the scenes, the characters, the symbolism etc. etc.

I’ve joined this discussion board in order to discuss the film. I want to be able to air my opinions, to get fresh perspectives from others, to ask questions and to obtain illuminating information pertaining to the film and the filming process;  – to examine every angle of thoughts and emotions that I have concerning this film and concerning Jack and Ennis - in communication with others. Hopefully I’ll get new ideas and better understanding than if I just watched the film in a black box all to myself, didn’t read anything about it, and never discussed it. If I didn’t include the short story, interviews and scripts in this broadly defined communication about the film, it would mean cutting out some of the most relevant opinions, and muting some of the most knowledgable voices. It would mean not wanting to listen to the people who’ve thought about Jack and Ennis the most. That seems very strange to me.

Going from the short story via the script to the film is to be given insight into the process that created the film, the process that takes the next step when I see the film and interpret it, and the next step again when I start discussing it with others to share views and opinions. I think every step of the process has something to tell us about Jack and Ennis……. Including the changes that were made along the way. *Why* was so-and-so added? Why was so-and-so removed? In what way does that impact the final characterization, and the story? Can it shed any light on the characters, or – as is just as relevant a question – not?

For instance, in forming my own opinions about Ennis, I don’t want to disregard what Heath Ledger has to tell me concerning h is creation and understanding of the character. That doesn’t mean that his acting of the character as seen in the film won’t remain the main source of understanding. It always will. But if there seems to be a conflict between the two, I still think it will pay to go re-examine that…. Is there really a conflict? Or is there some nuance or aspect or connection I’ve not seen or misread? If the former, if there is a conflict, so be it. The film wins hands down. There are many examples of this. The very main one, I suppose, is when the short story *and* (more mysteriously) the published script tells us that Ennis does not embrace Jack face to face in the dozy because he does not want to see nor feel that he is holding Jack – a man. It doesn’t make sense in the *film* since we’ve seen him embracing Jack face to face in a scene that in the linear timeline came before the dozy. And it doesn’t make sense because Heath isn’t acting Ennis in the dozy that way – he’s clearly looking at Jake's profile. So the film wins, and I remain baffled at the published script’s inclusion of that particular description. Still, if anything, it gave me food for discussion and reexamination of the film – and what’s wrong about that? Nothing.

I don’t mean to say that I think every possible source initiated by the author, actors, director, writer or producers and pertaining to the film are equally relevant. The relevance has to be considered in each case, by each of us, and I’m sure our opinions will differ very much on that too. I suppose to me it’s a continuum, with the final script and the short story at one end, in-depth interviews such as the Charlie Rose interview with Heath Ledger and Ang Lee in the middle, and one-minute talk-show interviews designed mainly to create laughs and attention at the very far non-interesting) end. Silly kissing questions that obtained equally silly replies doesn’t do much for anyone’s understanding, though they may have helped talk show ratings for all I know.

For when all is said and done, the main source of course is and will always remain the film.

One of the things Annie Proulx has said that has increased my respect for her another notch, is her praise of Heath Ledger in saying that when seeing the film she realized he “knew better than her how Ennis felt and thought”.  Not only is that a sign of a person who keeps her feet firmly grounded and hasn’t bought into any hype concerning herself, but it’s a liberating carte blanche to us readers and viewers to go ahead and create our personal version and understanding. Not that I’d have expected anything else from artists who places their work of art before us, but there it is. Heath built on her story and the script and his own interpretation – and built a "better" understanding of Ennis than the original creator had. If we build on all that, *and* his portrayal *and* our own experiences and emotions and interpretations – will our understanding be diminished, more confused, less clear and ambiguous than if we held strictly to the film and nothing else? I think not. All input including scripts, short story and interviews can only enhance and broaden our understanding and perspectives on Brokeback.

In my personal view. Which I do by no means mean to say others need to share! 

[silkncense]

Once again I'm late to the dance & everyone's already paired up...

Anyway - I read elsewhere (was it TOB?) the thread about Jack "quitting" Ennis & posted a response.  Since I now have no idea where it was, I would like to offer my Ennisesq response again.

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Ligthning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

Now, that's more words than I'd wrote all year...

[Daphne7661]

Ahhh, thank you for that insightful post silkncense....

Perhaps Jack did only contemplate quitting Ennis...  That makes me VERY happy...

As I mentioned before, I had always counted on Jack's big heart to keep fighting for his and Ennis' love...

Thank Heavens for Mrs. Twist!!!

[David]

Ahhh, thank you for that insightful post silkncense....

Perhaps Jack did only contemplate quitting Ennis...  That makes me VERY happy...

As I mentioned before, I had always counted on Jack's big heart to keep fighting for his and Ennis' love...

Thank Heavens for Mrs. Twist!!!

True,  Jacks Mom lets Ennis know that he was her sons true love.

So if Jack did leave lightning flat calmed down and forgetting about Randall, what happened in Texas?

I think Jack was real frustrated.  He was in love with Ennis, angry about the situation and not willing to let go.   Was he just going to keep things the way they were?     As Lureen said, Jack drank alot.   Maybe he got liquored up and went out looking for trouble?   He sure found it. 

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Everyone – you may have heard by now that I have decided to leave this forum – I will be posting a good-bye post today.  Thanks for all of the wonderful discussions.  I truly appreciate it.  You are amazing people!


Dly64 – I couldn’t leave without responding to your most recent post.  I read it and think it is one of the most wonderful posts I have read.  It cleared up the confusion I had before and it’s straight forward, concise… it conveys your point of view beautifully and so I didn’t want to leave without saying that.

Okay you guys …. Let me clarify. 

Now … what I meant by Jack going to Lightning Flat. I am not saying that when Jack went there he didn’t help out around the ranch. What I am saying is that Jack’s primary motivation is not to go there to mow and fix gates, etc. I think Jack tended to go up to Lightning Flat after he had just been with Ennis … not because he wanted to see the shirts instead of Ennis. Rather, he went to see the shirts to be close to a part of Ennis after Ennis left.  I am not sure if I am explaining this very eloquently … let me break it down another way ….

There is a theme of Ennis leaving/ disappointing Jack:
•   Ennis leaves Jack to go up to the sheep after TS1
•   Ennis leaves Jack post mountain
•   Ennis makes it clear that he and Jack will never “ranch up” together after their reunion
•   After Ennis’ divorce and Jack drives up 14 hours because he thinks Ennis has decided to have a life with him … Ennis turns him away
•   After the “dozy embrace” … Ennis rides away
•   After the row, Ennis drives away

Every time Ennis leaves, it reminds Jack of what he could have had. Jack misses Ennis to the point he can hardly stand it. When he goes to Lightning Flat … the shirts are a reminder of what they had on the mountain; freedom from rural homophobia and from their own internal fears and struggles. They could be free to love each other openly. They could be free from glares and speculations. It was just the two of them.

Excellent.  Excellent.  Excellent.  I know this sounds stupid, but I really did think you meant Jack would rather be with the shirts than with Ennis.  But I still knew you couldn’t really mean that.  So this cleared it up for me and was a wonderful way of saying it.

However, Jack’s reason for getting involved with Randall in the first place, IMO, was to meet Jack’s sexual needs.

Very good point!


Ruthlessly:

I have a hard time wrapping myself around this one.  Would you still say the same thing in light of the fact that at the breakdown Jack became acutely aware of the destructive effects on Ennis due to his inability to keep his worlds in harmony?  This is the part I have the hardest time coming to grips with: Jack loving Ennis so much that he chooses to keep Ennis in suffering.  I don’t see Jack that way.

Dly64:

Doesn’t Ennis keep the relationship going with Jack even though he knows Jack is suffering? Ennis is acutely aware of the toll that their relationship has taken on Jack, but is unable to let him go. IMO, this is the same thing with Jack. It isn’t that either one wants to see the other in turmoil and pain. However, their relationship has been hard. It has been difficult. It has been painful. It has been separate. Despite all of this, they are part of each other. They complete each other. They represent the yin and the yang … two opposites becoming a whole.

I agree with what you said about Ennis.  But as to Jack, it seems to me that he learns the depth of the difficulty and pain for Ennis when Ennis has his breakdown.  Jack has never seen this before.  I agree with them completing, being parts of each other, etc., but this can still be true even if they never see each other again in this lifetime.

You have a compelling argument.

Well, I’m glad you finally see it my way!          

It is because they love each other to the core that makes it impossible to let each go free.

This is our big sticking point.  I agree with your sentence with only one word change… “impossible” to “imperative.”

Even in death, Ennis cannot let Jack go.

But, Ennis isn’t the one who had to do the letting go.  He’s the one who had to be let go.


… Just as I do now.           Thanks dly64!  I’ve enjoyed our discussions.  You’re sensitive and “hopelessly romantic” so in a sense, you’re the yin to my yang.            I will miss discussing things with you, but it’s for the best all around.  What I’ll really miss most of all is seeing you come around to my way of thinking on this issue!           Take care.

[Mikaela]

People leaving all over the place.    I feel as if I've been walking in a mine field, blissfully unaware. 

Goodbye, and thanks for the discussions and your extremely lucid and logical posts, Ruthlessly. Best of luck to you; - I do hope you fare well where you next decide to join discussions. 

From Jeff
I guess what is provoking in me the idea that he might have forgotten about the shirts is the thought that if Jack had truly--truly--decided to "quit" Ennis, and if those shirts were still prominent in his consciousness, it would have been logical for him to get rid of them on his final trip to Lightning Flat. This is suggesting to me the possiblity that at some time in that nearly 20 years, he stopped taking out those shirts out of the closet and "holding on to them reverently" on this trips home and eventually just plain forgot about them. 

All we really know is that in the end, the shirts were still there.

I'm among those who think "Jack was setting Ennis free" - or at least, he'd be doing that on their upcoming November meeting if Ennis wasn't then willing or able to make another sort of commitment. But I've been thinking Jack would preserve the shirts to remember his love by, because he wouldn't stop loving. If he should ever stop *loving* Ennis, then the shirts would go - he'd get rid of them as a kind of symbolic and final dsign that it was truly over.

But that would never, ever happen. I just can't manage to imagine that....

From Diane
Let’s just say that we meet Jack for the first time (at the benefit dance). Albeit, he’s not college educated. However, he is well-groomed and makes good money. His wife is educated. How would we see him? We have no idea about Randall’s background (with the exception that he is a college graduate and is “technically challenged”). For all we know, he could have grown up with humble roots.

Reading this I'm more than ever reminded that I can't believe Jack could ever manage to live at Lightnin' Flat with anyone else than Ennis. Jack had moved too far away from those humble roots to easily manage to go back there for good, to give up having money - for anything less than the love he shared with Ennis. Ennis would have liked it up there; working with lifestock, being far away from people, living with Jack, - and Jack would have put up with anything if only Ennis had said yes to ranching up with him. Ennis and Jack could have made it.

But I can't see Jack actually settling with Randall there and making it work over time. The hardships of that old decrepit ranch would wear them down soon enough, I think. Jack and Randall at Ligthnin' Flat? No. I just can't imagine that working.

(But then again, I don't *want* to imagine it working. 

From Diane[/i]
I know I get a lot of grief for referring to the short story and screenplay since the film stands on its own … which is true. However, the screenplay offers some background and motivation that can not be explicitly expressed on the screen. The above quote, IMO, is one of those instances. As is the following …

“…they hug one another, a fierce, desperate embrace – managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

I feel a little stupid now for having spent time writing that overly looong previous post that basically say: I agree with you: I think the short story and script are entirely relevant sources when trying to come to terms with the film.

Nor do I think the quote from the story/screenplay necessarily contradicts those of us who thinks Jack was quitting Ennis; he was in a process and he may have made a decision to "quit" as he saw Ennis drive away, - but the decision would not have been *final* and immutable till after the November meeting, not till after he'd told Ennis about it, I think. So maybe that sad, discouraged look of Jack's is not the beginning of the end, nor the end, but..... somewhere in between in the quitting process? In which case, nothining was ended, nothing begun, and nothing finally resolved.

From Diane
I think it is completely impossible to think that Jack ever forgot about those shirts. It symbolized the two into one … a metaphor of marriage vows … “the two shall become one.” Ennis then responded by making his vow to Jack … “Jack, I swear …”

Beautifully said. Brings tears to my eyes....... 

[dly64]

Reading this I'm more than ever reminded that I can't believe Jack could ever manage to live at Lightnin' Flat with anyone else than Ennis. Jack had moved too far away from those humble roots to easily manage to go back there for good, to give up having money - for anything less than the love he shared with Ennis. Ennis would have liked it up there; working with lifestock, being far away from people, living with Jack, - and Jack would have put up with anything if only Ennis had said yes to ranching up with him. Ennis and Jack could have made it.

But I can't see Jack actually settling with Randall there and making it work over time. The hardships of that old decrepit ranch would wear them down soon enough, I think. Jack and Randall at Ligthnin' Flat? No. I just can't imagine that working.

(But then again, I don't *want* to imagine it working. 

I agree. I know that Jack would have given up everything ... his money, his family .... if Ennis would have just said, "Yes". Of course, the whole Randall thread was thrown in the story for a reason. It is hard to imagine that Jack would have moved to Lightning Flat with him. Was Jack's life so intolerable that he would give up his comfort to be with a man with whom he was settling? I simply don't know the answer to that question. Could it be that Jack had mentioned something to OMT and he used it to needle Ennis? This film is very ambiguous ... and here is another example.

I feel a little stupid now for having spent time writing that overly looong previous post that basically say: I agree with you: I think the short story and script are entirely relevant sources when trying to come to terms with the film.

Don’t feel stupid! I am one of those who like to use sources outside of the film. That includes the short story, screenplay, interviews, etc. Not everyone does and I can respect his/her opinion. I think, for me, it gives me a broader POV. This provides information to help me formulate my own opinions. Additionally, I use this forum to stimulate thought …. I enjoy hearing what everyone says. I don’t always agree, but it is always enlightening.

Nor do I think the quote from the story/screenplay necessarily contradicts those of us who thinks Jack was quitting Ennis; he was in a process and he may have made a decision to "quit" as he saw Ennis drive away, - but the decision would not have been *final* and immutable till after the November meeting, not till after he'd told Ennis about it, I think. So maybe that sad, discouraged look of Jack's is not the beginning of the end, nor the end, but..... somewhere in between in the quitting process? In which case, nothing was ended, nothing begun, and nothing finally resolved.

I think this is a valid point. Honestly, I have always struggled with their last scene together. I vacillate between thinking that Jack is considering giving up Ennis to thinking there is absolutely no way he could do that. I tend to believe that Jack knew he would never see Ennis again. I don’t mean that he would knowingly give Ennis up. Maybe it was a premonition? I know that sounds a bit “new age” … but I think it is something to consider. Again … another ambiguity!

[Brown Eyes]

This thread is just incredibly rich and complicated.  It's amazing to see the range of opinions and the strong emotions that people have when it comes to these really central and important issues in the film.  It seems only right that people would feel so strongly about these highly fraught things.

I just can’t see Jack being able to release Ennis, as Ennis is unable to release Jack. They are too enmeshed. It is not that either one is selfish. It is because they love each other to the core that makes it impossible to let each go free. That is why Jack’s death is so profound. Even in death, Ennis cannot let Jack go. He swears his love for Jack …. even in death, they do not part.

Diane, I have to say that this brief little part of your post a while back has been stuck in my head all night as I surf around BetterMost.  It's so precisely how I see this that it amazes me.  I think the word "enmeshed" is a really good way to describe it too.  Lovely.  The shirts - for me - are all about just how enmeshed they have been all along throughout the 20 years. 


I don't think Jack quit Ennis.   I take his statement seriously from the argument scene that he wishes he knew how to quit Ennis.  He really doesn't know how... and furthermore he doesn't even truly wish that he knew how.  He's too self-aware to want this or to do this.  Likewise, I don't take Ennis at his word when he says "why don't you then".  I think he's testing Jack (probably completely sub-consciously) and crying out for Jack to come running back to him.  Which of course Jack does.  Jack has learned that sometimes Ennis both lashes out when he's sad and confused (as he does in the argument... yet Jack hugs him tighter) and that sometimes he says the opposite of what he means.  Sometimes Ennis doesn't even know what's good for him.  Still he relies on Jack to take the lead even here at the end... in initiating the final hug that we see.

I always wonder how devastating this movie really would be if that final, tight hug wasn't shown.  I think the film would be almost unbearable if we didn't see something positive at the end of the argument scene.  Granted, Jack's eyes are awfully sad and confused looking at the very end.  But, still that hug leaves us at least with the image of something hopeful.   I also think, ironically, that Ennis's "I can't stand this anymore" is a good sign.  As others have noted, since this is part of his motto- "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it"... it seems to indicate that since he can't stand it, he must try to fix it.  "Give up on it" isn't an option here.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I don't think Jack quit Ennis.   I take his statement seriously from the argument scene that he wishes he knew how to quit Ennis.  He really doesn't know how... and furthermore he doesn't even truly wish that he knew how.  He's too self-aware to want this or to do this.  Likewise, I don't take Ennis at his word when he says "why don't you then".  I think he's testing Jack (probably completely sub-consciously) and crying out for Jack to come running back to him.  Which of course Jack does.  Jack has learned that sometimes Ennis both lashes out when he's sad and confused (as he does in the argument... yet Jack hugs him tighter) and that sometimes he says the opposite of what he means.  Sometimes Ennis doesn't even know what's good for him.  Still he relies on Jack to take the lead even here at the end... in initiating the final hug that we see.

I always wonder how devastating this movie really would be if that final, tight hug wasn't shown.  I think the film would be almost unbearable if we didn't see something positive at the end of the argument scene.  Granted, Jack's eyes are awfully sad and confused looking at the very end.  But, still that hug leaves us at least with the image of something hopeful.   I also think, ironically, that Ennis's "I can't stand this anymore" is a good sign.  As others have noted, since this is part of his motto- "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it"... it seems to indicate that since he can't stand it, he must try to fix it.  "Give up on it" isn't an option here.

I agree and like the way you laid out these thoughts. Remember that the hug was not in the book nor in the 2003 screenplay. That hug is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. As I have said before I do wish the show all thise last moments untill Ennis gets in his truck. Even if it was just jack picking Ennis up after a bit walking to the truck planting a kiss on his cheek... "see you in November....."
What was also not in the 2003 screenplay is the inside of either of the tent scenes. Thankyou Ang.i

[Rayn]

.....Note also that when Junior tells Ennis she’s getting married, he doesn’t respond with the usual “Do you love him?” – as most fathers would. Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis (thanks also to the shirts).

And so we end our story of Ennis del Mar at a closet, with a postcard and the two shirts. He has carefully arranged his memories of Jack and of Brokeback Mountain. He keeps the picture of Brokeback hanging straight. He snaps a button.  When the shirts were in Jack’s closet, Jack’s shirt was on top of Ennis’ shirt. Jack had his arms around Ennis, comforting him. Now, in probably his only act of true acknowledgement that what he felt for Jack was love, Ennis has hung the shirts with Ennis’ arms wrapped around Jack, holding him forever.

Hello Everyone...

I think what Ruthlesslyunsentimental wrote in his long essay is pretty accurate even if some of it is just guessing at what might have happened.  The guessing stands on good reasoning and other things he wrote are plainly true, but being the hopeful "Jack" that I am in many ways, I'd still like to believe that Jack did set a time for Ennis to decide...  by November.   Of course we have know way of knowing that.  It's just a good guess. We know Jack was making other plans, because of Randall, for sure, and to tell the truth, I don't see Ennis changing either.  No,  what it often takes to wake a man like Ennis up to the deeper realities of life is an event so powerful, so devastating that it turns everything upside down and inside out. 

Ennis did really need to turn himself inside out, but he didn't have the means or know-how to do that. 

That he realizes Jack's love and his own love for Jack in the end is actually miraculous given his character and the realization does change Ennis for the better.  He reaches out to people, calling Jack's wife, meeting his parents, expressing his grief.  He knows the wonderful connection he had with Jack is Love and there is nothing "queer" about it.  It is written all over his face, as Ruthlessly points out, when he asks his daughter... "This feller Kurt... He loves you?".   The connection has been made in his mind and heart.  That is what is all important to him, "He loves you."... something he sadly could not realize while Jack was alive. 

Thanks for your post, Ruthlessly...

Rayn

PS: The last paragraph is most beautiful and sweet and I don't believe for a moment that you are Ruthless or unsentimental.  A clear thinker, yes, but there's romance and strong sentiments (feelings) in what you write, so they have to be in you too, Ruthlessly; you ain't foolin' me!  Reason and feelings can work together to balance one another, and in the best writing, in the best people, they usually do.    R.

[ednbarby]

Once again I'm late to the dance & everyone's already paired up...

Anyway - I read elsewhere (was it TOB?) the thread about Jack "quitting" Ennis & posted a response.  Since I now have no idea where it was, I would like to offer my Ennisesq response again.

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Ligthning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

Now, that's more words than I'd wrote all year...

Thanks for saving them up for us, Silk.  They were well worth the wait.

I think you're absolutely right.  Your words are so convincing that you've convinced me my view was wrong.  Or at least not quite right.  I missed the target but hit the tree.  Of course that's what "Damn you, Ennis" means.  He was *almost* there.  Of course.  It makes me feel better and worse for him at the same time.  And your observation that Jack never gave "the ranch neighbor" a name like he did with Ennis (and he didn't just stop at Ennis... "Jack used a say 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say...").  That's right on, too.

Thank you.

And I love your first line in the post and the way you put things in general.  Always brings a smile to my face.  You don't say much.  But you get your point across.  Always. 

[jpwagoneer1964]

Once again I'm late to the dance & everyone's already paired up...

Anyway - I read elsewhere (was it TOB?) the thread about Jack "quitting" Ennis & posted a response.  Since I now have no idea where it was, I would like to offer my Ennisesq response again.

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Ligthning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

Now, that's more words than I'd wrote all year...

Hi. Very well written and very heartwarming. I knew Jack wouldn't quit Ennis.

[dly64]

From my observation, I saw that Jack was definitely considering quitting Ennis, thus the conversation the last night at the lake, including "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack was looking for some hope from Ennis & got none.

I have to disagree with you on this one. We don’t see Ennis saying anything. What we do see is Ennis and Jack sleeping in the tent with Ennis’ arm around Jack. This is not insignificant.  It is extremely powerful since it is usually Jack we see comforting Ennis, not the other way around.

When Ennis cancelled August, Jack was back to mulling over whether to end the relationship then & there, thus the "I wish I knew how to quit you." 

Ennis saying, "Why don't you then..." gave Jack the permission he needed.  BUT, when Ennis uncontrollably collapsed (from the thought that the relationship was ending - that Jack had been with other men & all the emotion that that absolute fear brought to him), Jack could not stand it. 

Jack came back, emotionally & physically to Ennis.  He moved to hold him & despite the perfect opportunity to say "OK" , fought to bring Ennis back to him when Ennis tried denying his feelings w/ "Get the fuck off of me!"  And Jack, who was almost there, almost ready to break away, said, "Damn you, Ennis".

Again, I am not sure that I agree. I think Jack was frustrated. He had a lot of physical needs that were not getting met. When Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you” … it was not because he really wanted the relationship to end. Same with Ennis’ statement … “why don’t you?” These two couldn’t quit each other even if they tried. They were intertwined. They were dependent upon each other. Jack knew that Ennis was not giving him permission to leave. Ennis was speaking out of hurt and, yes, betrayal. But everything they said was not a surprise. They both knew the truth.

The last view of Jack for me is his inner turmoil now.  He was almost there.  Almost ready to let Ennis go.  Now where was he?  Hurt & confused and no further resolved than before, remembering how much he loves Ennis.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the look on Jack’s face is one of sadness because he knows what could have been. The expression is seen after Jack’s recollection of a time when it was the two of them  … when they were not subjected to societal expectations and fear. It is also important to note that it is Ennis who is comforting Jack, not the other way around. Jack is fully aware that Ennis loves him as Jack loves Ennis. Jack could not have a life without Ennis. IMO, even if Jack would have moved in with Randall, he would have continued to see Ennis. Jack is drawn to Ennis as Ennis is drawn to Jack.

The conversation Jack had w/ his folks at Lightning Flat was an attempt to move on.  But 'the ranch neighbor' had no name.  Unlike Ennis. 

And when Ennis came to the Twist ranch, Jack's mother knew this was the love of Jack's life.  And that is why she so gently touched Ennis when her husband mentioned the ranch neighbor - to assure Ennis that the ranch neighbor comment should not hurt him -  & why she encouraged Ennis to go to Jack's room & KNEW, with that nod & smile, what those shirts meant when she saw Ennis cradling them.

I agree with most of what you have said, with the exception of Jack’s attempt to move on. I think Jack had needs that were not being met with Ennis on a regular basis. Randall could fill those basic needs. Ennis, however, could only satisfy the closeness, the “shared and sexless hunger” that Jack craved.

[ednbarby]

I have to disagree with you on this one. We don’t see Ennis saying anything. What we do see is Ennis and Jack sleeping in the tent with Ennis’ arm around Jack. This is not insignificant.  It is extremely powerful since it is usually Jack we see comforting Ennis, not the other way around.

Ah, but does Jack know Ennis has his arm around him?  And if he could see his troubled brow and restless sleep with that arm around him, would it comfort him or make him feel further alienated from him?

Again, I am not sure that I agree. I think Jack was frustrated. He had a lot of physical needs that were not getting met. When Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you” … it was not because he really wanted the relationship to end. Same with Ennis’ statement … “why don’t you?” These two couldn’t quit each other even if they tried. They were intertwined. They were dependent upon each other. Jack knew that Ennis was not giving him permission to leave. Ennis was speaking out of hurt and, yes, betrayal. But everything they said was not a surprise. They both knew the truth.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the look on Jack’s face is one of sadness because he knows what could have been. The expression is seen after Jack’s recollection of a time when it was the two of them  … when they were not subjected to societal expectations and fear. It is also important to note that it is Ennis who is comforting Jack, not the other way around. Jack is fully aware that Ennis loves him as Jack loves Ennis. Jack could not have a life without Ennis. IMO, even if Jack would have moved in with Randall, he would have continued to see Ennis. Jack is drawn to Ennis as Ennis is drawn to Jack.

I agree with most of what you have said, with the exception of Jack’s attempt to move on. I think Jack had needs that were not being met with Ennis on a regular basis. Randall could fill those basic needs. Ennis, however, could only satisfy the closeness, the “shared and sexless hunger” that Jack craved.

I think that when Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you," he really was just thinking out loud, as he always did, that he wished he could find a way to let Ennis go because holding on was killing him.  Then, as Silk (and Ruthlessly) said, Ennis ironically showed him how.  But I agree with you and now, Silk, that ultimately he never fully could, not like he wished he could.  And I see Jack going up to Lightning Flat, mentioning "the ranch neighbor" to his parents/Dad (but not giving him his name because deep down he's not serious) out of frustration, then going back to Childress and drinking himself unconscious every day from then on.  I don't even see him getting together any more with Randall - at least not seriously - because he doesn't respect him enough (again, if he did, he'd have mentioned his name, as Silk so laser-sharply pointed out).  And like David, I see him getting himself into trouble one way or the other while under the influence because he can't quit Ennis ("Damn you, Ennis").

 

[dly64]

Ah, but does Jack know Ennis has his arm around him?  And if he could see his troubled brow and restless sleep with that arm around him, would it comfort him or make him feel further alienated from him?

I think it is no coincidence that we go from the “Tell you what …. the truth is …. sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it” straight to the tent scene with Ennis’ arm around Jack. Jack is fully aware that Ennis’ arm is around him. IMO, they had just made love and fell asleep while Ennis was comforting and holding Jack.

I am not sure that I understand the second part of your statement. Are you saying that Ennis has the troubled brow or Jack? Let me just put it this way …. Ennis’ arm around Jack is reminiscent of the “dozy embrace” flashback we see later. That memory is one of warmth and comfort. I think that is what Jack is feeling in the tent.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I think it is no coincidence that we go from the “Tell you what …. the truth is …. sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it” straight to the tent scene with Ennis’ arm around Jack. Jack is fully aware that Ennis’ arm is around him. IMO, they had just made love and fell asleep while Ennis was comforting and holding Jack.

I am not sure that I understand the second part of your statement. Are you saying that Ennis has the troubled brow or Jack? Let me just put it this way …. Ennis’ arm around Jack is reminiscent of the “dozy embrace” flashback we see later. That memory is one of warmth and comfort. I think that is what Jack is feeling in the tent.

I agree with you. I dont think Jack really expects any kind of a verbal reaction from Ennis. In the book he does put his arm around him by the campfire. In the film what we see instead is Ennis and Jack in the tent, very important. I also don not think it was the only time in their 20 years that Jack stated  how much he misses Ennis, just the only one we saw.I still say this conversasion took place early on in that final trip.

[Phillip Dampier]

Definitely an important thread.

[mlewisusc]

Bump to post later.

[BBM-Cat]

Bumping for posts. I just love this thread and re-read it from time to time, often bringing tears to my eyes.

[Ellemeno]

I think maybe when Ennis says "Jack, I swear," he is telling Jack that in a do-over, Jack wouldn't have had to say, "Damn you, Ennis." 

[nakymaton]

I think maybe when Ennis says "Jack, I swear," he is telling Jack that in a do-over, Jack wouldn't have had to say, "Damn you, Ennis." 

Because this time Ennis would swear and Jack wouldn't have to? (Someday I really am going to watch the movie and keep track of every time Jack swears. )

[serious crayons]

(Someday I really am going to watch the movie and keep track of every time Jack swears. )

Sounds like a fun new thread! Swearing as a metaphor. The hidden symbolism behind "goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation" and "son of a whoreson bitch." The changing shades of meaning that "Jack Fuckin Twist" undergoes in its three incarnations. And we already know who the dumbass mule is, right?

[angry little lawyer]

I just "found" this thread and OMG I never reflected on the fact that while John C. Twist knew Ennis Del Mar by name, Randall was just "some rancher friend." I recently saw this movie again and was struck by the absolute cruelty of John Twist that I started crying. The only reason he's even mentioning the other "friend" is to wound Ennis. I hated him so much right then!

[serious crayons]

Happy Throwback Thursday!

[Brown Eyes]

Nice bump K! This really was a smart thread/ discussion. It's fun to re-read it.

[Front-Ranger]

I never saw this thread before...thanks for bumping it!

And now I'm wondering what other buried treasure there is that I haven't seen.

And also, this thread needs more posts...we haven't fully resolved the discussion!!

I hope ruthlessly is doing well wherever he is.

[southendmd]

Great thread to bump.  I read it all the way through last night.  I certainly remember ruthless, and was sad when he left.  Nice to see how respectful people could be, given the range of opinions. 

Funny, the title of the thread is a bit presumptuous.  As ruthless would say, replace "why" with "did" and all is well.

I don't buy ruthless's thesis, however well reasoned it may be.  I'm more in the "torque" camp. 

Also, I tend to think Jack's dying was his only way of quitting Ennis.

[serious crayons]

Funny, the title of the thread is a bit presumptuous.  As ruthless would say, replace "why" with "did" and all is well.

I don't buy ruthless's thesis, however well reasoned it may be.  I'm more in the "torque" camp. 

I got to know Ruthlessly pretty well, here and at IMDb, where he went under a variety of names -- most famously, ClancyPants. He was never one to shy away from stating a strong opinion on a controversial issue. But he certainly did his homework, unearthing subtleties and symbols that many might miss.

His vehement but logical argument that Jack died the way Lureen described, not the way Ennis imagined, permanently changed my mind on that issue.

[Luvlylittlewing]

His vehement but logical argument that Jack died the way Lureen described, not the way Ennis imagined, permanently changed my mind on that issue.

Same here!   

[Monika]

This is one thread I won´t read - not that I mind this interpretation of things - it´s simply not "my" Brokeback.

[Luvlylittlewing]

This is one thread I won´t read - not that I mind this interpretation of things - it´s simply not "my" Brokeback.

I understand completely.  I don't agree with all of his "theories" however.

[serious crayons]

His vehement but logical argument that Jack died the way Lureen described, not the way Ennis imagined, permanently changed my mind on that issue.

Same here!   

Marie, I was hoping you'd pop into this thread! 

[Brown Eyes]

IMO, it's awesome that this thread can still generate debate about Brokeback content and interpretation.

This is definitely a controversial and emotional topic.  I think I've changed my mind back and forth a few ways about whether Jack actually did quit Ennis.  I will admit that I have not yet re-read this entire thread, but I did re-read the long first post of this thread.  I think ruthless's arguments are very sound and compelling, but I do think that there's a lot of room for other interpretations.  I think a lot of us have interpretations that we prefer (and maybe even have settled on) regarding controversial BBM points.  For instance, whether Jack was murdered or died in an accident.... I realize that the answer is open ended.  But, in my own mind I've pretty much resolved that he died in an accident like Lureen says, and Ennis's imagination is to some extent running away with him and functioning as a projection of his own fears and internalized homophobia (which is just incredibly sad and scary).  I still feel less sure about how I think about Jack quitting Ennis or not.  I feel like we really can debate these things endlessly because there's no correct answer.

LOL, that first post mentioning "bookends" now makes me super nostalgic for *that* old conversation.  Thinking about how the movie is structured/ crafted is still fascinating to me.

[Luvlylittlewing]

Marie, I was hoping you'd pop into this thread!  

Of course!  I think about him every day, and I still miss him after all these years.  He changed (and not for the better) toward the end of his "tenure" but I refer to remember his good qualities and the happy times we spent battling the trolls and PMing back and forth.  I'm still on the look-out for him over on the other Board, but I doubt he'll return.

[Front-Ranger]

I think Annie Proulx set it up so that Jack was ready to quit Ennis and Ennis was ready to accept Jack when it was all cut short by Jack's death. That would be just like her. 

[Brown Eyes]

I think Annie Proulx set it up so that Jack was ready to quit Ennis and Ennis was ready to accept Jack when it was all cut short by Jack's death. That would be just like her. 

Wow!  That's such a concise way of stating this in a nutshell.  I think this might be spot on Lee!  Everything about a scenario like that really does seem Shakespearean as far as tragic construction goes... and it fits in with their star-crossed/ moon-crossed status.

[serious crayons]

Wow!  That's such a concise way of stating this in a nutshell.  I think this might be spot on Lee!  Everything about a scenario like that really does seem Shakespearean as far as tragic construction goes... and it fits in with their star-crossed/ moon-crossed status.

Agreed. As dramatic structure, that would make the most sense. And that's basically the foundation of why I prefer the "Lureen was telling the truth" interpretation.

When it comes to how Jack died, I think people probably prefer to think that Ennis' imaginary version was right. Horrible as a hate murder would be, it is actually more comforting in the terms of the story. If Ennis was right, his fears all along were well-founded, and he and Jack would have been in danger had they lived the sweet life. Which would mean Ennis hadn't screwed up his own life (due to internalized homophobia), which is an even sadder fate. And yet, it's one that no doubt befell countless people throughout history.

So as great literature, with its big themes and Shakespearean tragedies and all of that, BBM works better if Jack died in a random mishap.

[serious crayons]

Of course!  I think about him every day, and I still miss him after all these years.  He changed (and not for the better) toward the end of his "tenure" but I refer to remember his good qualities and the happy times we spent battling the trolls and PMing back and forth.  I'm still on the look-out for him over on the other Board, but I doubt he'll return.

My rocky online friendship with the mysterious Clancy was one of my most amazing internet adventures to date. He definitely changed over the years, but was always one of a kind, with a Brokie brilliance that couldn't have been faked. Let me know if you ever see him, Marie. Cheers for Mr. S! ( )

[Luvlylittlewing]

My rocky online friendship with the mysterious Clancy was one of my most amazing internet adventures to date. He definitely changed over the years, but was always one of a kind, with a Brokie brilliance that couldn't have been faked. Let me know if you ever see him, Marie. Cheers for Mr. S! ( )

I definitely will.  He'll use a different name, of course, but I'll recognize him immediately.  He has a one-of-a-kind style, IMHO.

[serious crayons]

I definitely will.  He'll use a different name, of course, but I'll recognize him immediately.  He has a one-of-a-kind style, IMHO.

Agreed. He's instantly recognizable, partly for his incredibly in-depth understanding of BBM and strong opinions about it, partly because he's one of the few people on IMDb who I've never seen make a grammatical or spelling mistake.

Any other old friends still sticking around over there, Marie? Daphne? Malia? Toycoon?

[Luvlylittlewing]

Agreed. He's instantly recognizable, partly for his incredibly in-depth understanding of BBM and strong opinions about it, partly because he's one of the few people on IMDb who I've never seen make a grammatical or spelling mistake.

Any other old friends still sticking around over there, Marie? Daphne? Malia? Toycoon?

Yep, they're all there.  Malina and Daphne appear once-in-awhile while Toycoon is more active.  Its strange -- the problems are still there: TXMike (remember him) is as active as ever.  Most of the people who post there now are homophobes and seem proud of it.  Its such a shame that people who want answers to questions about our movie are given smart-ass answers by trolls who are the first to answer newbie's questions and think they own the Board!  There is this one guy from England who is so obsessed with BBM that he has gone so far as to create websites that track Ennis and Jack's ascent up the mountain, complete with a little horse and a cowboy figure graphic that climbs up the mountain. He even has a timer on the site that records the horse's progress!!  But at the same time, he'll post almost incomprehensible, disgusting rants about how Ennis and Jack are terrible people, and not only because they're gay.  The big board is still pretty active but I don't know most of the posters there anymore.  I visit IMDB only once a week or so.

[CellarDweller]

I think Annie Proulx set it up so that Jack was ready to quit Ennis and Ennis was ready to accept Jack when it was all cut short by Jack's death. That would be just like her. 

Wow!  That's such a concise way of stating this in a nutshell.  I think this might be spot on Lee!  Everything about a scenario like that really does seem Shakespearean as far as tragic construction goes... and it fits in with their star-crossed/ moon-crossed status.

I agree with Lee.  However, unlike Kathrine, I don't believe that Lureen was telling the truth about the accident.

I do believe that Jack was ready to quit Ennis.  There is only so much that people can take, and after 20 years, I think Jack had his fill.