Why Jack Quit Ennis

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

What if Randall turned out  to be no more willing to ranch up with Jack than Ennis was?

I have thought of this once or twice before.  We really don't know.  Yes, we're making assumptions.

What if all Randall wanted from Jack was ... sex?

The bastard!

[dly64]

ORIGINAL POSTER’S NOTE:  This post is dedicated to dly64 in friendship and with my thanks.

Thank you! You certainly have provided a lot to discuss (which you know I enjoy!!)   

During the last campfire scene, Jack came as close as either of them ever did to saying “I love you” when he said “Tell you what. The truth is… sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it.” No verbal response from Ennis. Jack twice offered Ennis the chance to live together. Ennis turned him down. Jack saved their two shirts from the mountain. Jack initiated the reunion. Jack was the first to initiate tenderness between the two of them. Jack longingly asked Ennis whether he’d be back to the mountain the next year. Jack drove 14 hours 2-3 times a year to see Ennis.

You know that I am usually in Jack’s camp because I understand his POV – much more than Ennis’. However, I want to give Ennis some credit here. When Jack says, “I miss you so much …”, we don’t see Ennis saying anything. What we do see is Ennis’ arm around Jack … not the other way around. We can only surmise what occurred between the time Jack shared about missing Ennis through TS3.  I like to think it was similar to TS2, but the other way around. And yes, Jack was the one to initiated almost everything … including the reunion. However, it was Ennis who initiated the kiss.  I had reached the conclusion, through all of our discussions, that I had been too hard on Ennis.

Jack loved Ennis AND Jack realized it AND Jack accepted it AND Jack moved on it. Ennis certainly loved Jack, but he did not recognize it as “love,” he certainly did not accept it, and he, in fact, moved from it.

I agree with most of this except for Ennis moving away from loving Jack (let me know if I am misunderstanding you). Certainly Jack was willing to embrace love. Ennis had a lot of fear. IMO, even though Ennis didn’t recognize his feelings for Jack as love … he knew that Jack understood him in a way no one else could. He could also be himself around Jack. There were no pretenses. Ennis certainly wasn’t hiding anything (with Jack). I think he knew, in his heart of hearts, that he didn’t want a life without Jack.

When they had their final fight, Ennis broke down and blamed Jack for being the way he was – not gay; rather, alone and drifting. Ennis was utterly confused, angry and tormented by his and their situations even though he kept it going and, deep down, wanted it to continue – so much so that he broke down, crying, and angrily swearing and attacking Jack. This is one piece of the pair of bookends that truly show us Ennis’ torment. The other bookend is his breakdown after Jack drove away after their initial time on the mountain ended. He was retching and this turned into anger. Partly he was kicking himself for letting Jack go, but he was also kicking himself for not being able to understand what had just happened on the mountain. He wasn’t thinking about this on the mountain, in the situation; rather, it all hit him after the initial summer ended abruptly and early and he found himself walking back into his stilted and fearful life with a marriage and wife just around the bend. That had been his plan before the mountain and he was terribly confused and angry as to how his plan could have taken such a twist. And yet all the time, underneath all of himself, he loved and craved Jack. But it was not in Ennis’ character to allow deep-down feelings to rise to the surface and for him to admit them.

We agree on most of this. We have previously talked about the bookends of their relationship post mountain:

•   Ennis breaking down when Jack leaves and then, at the lake scene, breaking down again at the thought of Jack leaving (but this time in Jack’s arms).
•   At the time of their reunion … Ennis says, “If you can’t fix it, you gotta stand it. Jack asks how long. Ennis replies, “As long as we can ride it …there ain’t no reins on this one.”  Then, at the lake scene, Jack says (in one of my favorite lines that we have already shared here and numerous times elsewhere), “Tell you what … the truth is … sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it.” Lastly, it is Ennis, breaking down in Jack’s arms, “Jack, I can’t stand this anymore.”

In the final fight, when Jack said “I wish I knew how to quit you,” Ennis responded “Then why don’t you? Why don’t you just let me be, huh?” Then Ennis broke down and blamed Jack and, in his truest moment of self-realization and openness, told Jack that “I’m nothin’. I’m nowhere.”

Now comes the moment of greatest revelation in the film. And it’s not Ennis’ realization. It’s Jack’s. Jack suddenly sees Ennis in a different light. He doesn’t see Ennis any longer as a guy who’s all too happy to get it a couple of times a year as long as he can keep his life going. Now he sees the true Ennis – a guy who’s doing this because something’s got hold of him… he can’t help himself… and he’s tormented by this dilemma in himself. Jack realizes that Ennis has never come to terms with his love or with their relationship or with himself, for that matter.

This is where our opinions diverge. There may be a revelation here, but not on Jack’s part … on Ennis’. I don’t think Jack ever thought that Ennis wanted to see him for the “high altitude f—ks once or twice a year.” Jack understood Ennis’ fear. This was obvious to Jack after Ennis’ divorce. Of course Jack was devastated and frustrated when, yet again, Ennis turned him away. But, IMO, Jack knew that Ennis was loyal to him (and yes, that Ennis loved him). Ennis’ motivation to see Jack was not simply to have a good time, but to be with the one person who could see through all of his internal fears and struggles. What Ennis realizes at the time of their fight, is that this “thing” he was feeling was, indeed, love. Ultimately it was too late. But, when Ennis breaks down into Jack’s arms, he knows this is it …. Jack is his one-in-a-lifetime love.

And it is here that Jack displays the greatest love shown in the movie. He quits Ennis. He does not quit Ennis for Jack’s sake, for Jack to be able to get it on with another man in a more open or convenient relationship. Jack quits Ennis for Ennis’ sake. Jack realizes that if Jack truly loves Ennis with all of his heart, then Jack must let Ennis be. Jack must be removed from the picture of Ennis’ life so that Ennis will no longer be tormented by something that he is simply not equipped to deal with – this is Ennis’ character. I’m sure that Jack knows that if Jack quits Ennis it will cause Ennis a lot of pain. But Jack also knows that the “quit” pain will ultimately be less disastrous to the man he loves (Ennis) than the “continue” pain is causing him. Ennis can cope with rejection and abandonment – on the surface -- as he has done since his parents died.  But he cannot deal with his inner struggles – at least not this one. It’s just not his character. And when Jack realizes this, he shows his truest love for Ennis by letting him be. Jack could not fix Ennis, so Jack had to let him stand. And Ennis cannot do this anymore with a relationship with Jack.

Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you."  And in the greatest irony of the film, Ennis showed Jack just how to do that -- one of Jack's wishes came to pass.

They part and the look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away says a thousand things. Most notably, to me, the look says “Goddamn you Ennis. If it was up to me we could have had it. But it wasn’t just up to me. And you couldn’t “stand” it. So I’ll give you what you say you want (even though he really doesn’t), that which I know you really need – I’ll let you be.” Jack knows he is saying good-bye to Ennis for the last time here. And not for himself, but for his love. This is the greatest sacrifice shown in the film.

Jack has just seen his lover crumple up into a ball of unmanageable emotions, fears, conflicts, and inner struggles.  And Jack knows that Ennis can neither fix it nor stand it.  The destructive effects of rural homophobia (the theme of the film) have taken their ultimate toll on Ennis.  Jack has only two realistic options: Let Ennis go or hold him captive.  It is because of Jack’s love for Ennis that he lets him go.  Otherwise, Jack never loved Ennis at all because his other option is to say: “Damn!  I just saw my lover crumple into a ball of despair.  Oh, well, I can still get a few high-altitude fucks out of him every year.”  Because neither of them can fix it and because Ennis cannot stand it, Jack must quit Ennis.

This is why I wanted us to discuss if Jack was going to “quit” Ennis or vice versa. I honestly do not know the answer and I think you present a good argument. I am not convinced that Jack could do it. We know that Ennis was not ready to give up Jack (as evidenced by his initiating the November trip). However, when Ennis drives away, the look on Jack’s face indicates to me that he knows he will never see his love again. Whether or not that means he was going to give him up or that he had a premonition/ feeling this was the end … I don’t know.

Jack goes back to Texas. At some point he takes up with Randall. So much so that after twenty years of telling his folks “me and Ennis,” he now tells them “me and this other guy.”  And Jack does this before Ennis’ postcard about Pine Creek in November.

Now, I do NOT mean to get into an entire discussion about HOW Jack communicated all of this to Ennis.  That’s grist for another thread some day.  Suffice it to say that I do not believe that Jack told all of this – including “quitting -- to Ennis after Ennis’ breakdown and before Ennis drove off.  If he had, Ennis’ final postcard, as written, would not fit.  Jack may have told Ennis “You have to decide by next November.”  Then, Ennis’ postcard could fit.  But then Jack’s telling his parents of the other guy wouldn’t fit.  Maybe Jack needed time to process all of this and intended to communicate it to Ennis somehow, somewhere later – before or at November.  I do not believe that Jack would have simply let Ennis go and not somehow let Ennis in on it.  That’s not Jack’s character.  I also believe that since Jack loved Ennis so much, Jack would have succeeded in letting Ennis be, even though it would have wrenched Jack’s guts out for the rest of his life.

This is when what I read influences what I think. Both the short story and screenplay say:

“And then …. They hug one another, a fierce desperate embrace --- managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

After the dozy embrace, the screenplay says:

“…. as Jack, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives.”

Based on both of these statements, I don’t think Jack could have ever given up Ennis. Even if Jack would have shacked up with Randall, I still believe that he would have continued his “fishing trips” with Ennis. It is not that Jack was being selfish in staying with Ennis.  They were just too enmeshed. The one was not complete without the other.

But as for Ennis, even after the final scenes with Jack, Ennis still had not changed. He didn’t send a postcard saying “OK, let’s set up housekeepin’ together.” It was just another invite – initiated this time by a guy who thought he may have lost Jack forever by his words and actions during the final scenes of the two of them. This being much like when he thought that Jack wasn’t contacting Ennis for four years after the mountain because Ennis thought maybe Jack wouldn’t forgive Ennis for punching Jack.

I do believe that Ennis finally figured out that Jack loved Ennis – but it took a bit of doing. In the bus station, Ennis told Cassie “I was probably no fun anyways, was I?”  (Harkening back to Ennis’ comment to Jack in the final lake scene about “a good time.”)  And she informed him that “Ennis, girls don’t fall in love with fun” – preceded by a ‘huh’ that drips with “I can’t believe you just said that. Are you that foolish?” Here, Ennis realizes that his times with Jack were not just fun and that Jack did not just fall in love with fun. Ennis looks as if he’s thinking, “Wow! Jack didn’t fall in love with fun, Jack fell in love with me.”
Deep down in an area that Ennis doesn’t communicate with, Ennis loved Jack. But on the surface – which is where Ennis (island) del Mar (of the sea) lives – it was all just fun – it was a “thing” that grabbed him – at least, this is how Ennis rationalized it to himself. In the final scene between Jack and Ennis, as the camera pans from Jack’s right to his left, and Jack is, presumably, weighing Ennis, Ennis says “We had a good time that year, didn’t we?” Ennis would only allow himself to believe that his dalliances with Jack were just fun, like going out hunting, fishing, or camping, with any other buddy, except that in Jack’s case, “something grabs hold of us.” But Cassie made Ennis realize on the surface, where Ennis lives, that Jack fell in love with Ennis.

You are correct that Ennis had not changed. He still was not planning on having the “sweet life” that Jack wanted. His fears and homophobia were entrenched too deeply. However, as stated above, after their argument  …. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

When Ennis realized he loved Jack, IMO, was when he broke down into Jack’s arms. He knew at that moment that Jack loved him, too. I don’t think Ennis or Jack saw their relationship as one for “just having fun” … if that would have been the case, they would have ended it long ago. Keep in mind when Jack drove 14 hours after Ennis’ divorce …. Ennis was fully aware that Jack had just been devastated. Ennis also knew, when they were together for the last time, that Jack missed Ennis so much he could hardly handle it. It wasn’t that they were getting together to pass the time, ride horses, and f--k.  They were consistently drawn to each other by a deeper passion. 

Note also that when Junior tells Ennis she’s getting married, he doesn’t respond with the usual “Do you love him?” – as most fathers would. Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis (thanks also to the shirts).

And so we end our story of Ennis del Mar at a closet, with a postcard and the two shirts. He has carefully arranged his memories of Jack and of Brokeback Mountain. He keeps the picture of Brokeback hanging straight. He snaps a button.  When the shirts were in Jack’s closet, Jack’s shirt was on top of Ennis’ shirt. Jack had his arms around Ennis, comforting him. Now, in probably his only act of true acknowledgement that what he felt for Jack was love, Ennis has hung the shirts with Ennis’ arms wrapped around Jack, holding him forever.

These two points … we are on the same page.

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

You certainly have provided a lot to discuss (which you know I enjoy!!)

And so have you in your reply (which you know **I** enjoy)!

I agree with most of this except for Ennis moving away from loving Jack (let me know if I am misunderstanding you). Certainly Jack was willing to embrace love. Ennis had a lot of fear. IMO, even though Ennis didn’t recognize his feelings for Jack as love … he knew that Jack understood him in a way no one else could. He could also be himself around Jack. There were no pretenses. Ennis certainly wasn’t hiding anything (with Jack). I think he knew, in his heart of hearts, that he didn’t want a life without Jack.

I agree with everything you wrote here and I think it’s extremely well said.  Nothing extraneous.  The way I worded “moving away from loving Jack” is not well worded for this discussion because it harkens back to how I’ve qualified it in other posts and not everyone had read those other posts.  A better way of saying it – what I should have said – is: “Ennis distances himself from the self-acknowledgement of his love for Jack.”  We have Ennis.  We have his love for Jack.  We have his behaviors that express his love for Jack.  We see all three. Ennis only sees the first and third.  He does not make the connection in his mind that what he does is the same thing as loving Jack – a man.  I believe he moves further from his realization until the breakdown and then he starts to get closer to the realization starting with his little tête-à-tête with Cassie in the bus depot over pie and coffee.  Because this is what I meant, and I still believe, I also agree with all that you said.

We have previously talked about the bookends of their relationship post mountain: …

Yep.  Agreed.

This is where our opinions diverge. There may be a revelation here, but not on Jack’s part … on Ennis’. I don’t think Jack ever thought that Ennis wanted to see him for the “high altitude f—ks once or twice a year.” Jack understood Ennis’ fear. This was obvious to Jack after Ennis’ divorce. Of course Jack was devastated and frustrated when, yet again, Ennis turned him away. But, IMO, Jack knew that Ennis was loyal to him (and yes, that Ennis loved him). Ennis’ motivation to see Jack was not simply to have a good time, but to be with the one person who could see through all of his internal fears and struggles. What Ennis realizes at the time of their fight, is that this “thing” he was feeling was, indeed, love. Ultimately it was too late. But, when Ennis breaks down into Jack’s arms, he knows this is it …. Jack is his one-in-a-lifetime love.

I still stand by Jack’s revelation.  I do think Ennis wanted to see Jack for the HAFs; but, also to be with the one person … etc. as you stated.  Both are present.  The difference I was trying to draw attention to is this:  Jack knows it’s both.  Very deep down in his gut Ennis knows it’s both, but he cannot acknowledge it.  He cannot call it love – for either of them.  Because if he does, then they’re queer, and that’s bad.  Then it’s no longer “a thing.”  What happens here is that Jack sees Ennis’ worlds colliding and Jack sees Ennis’ inability to keep it from happening.  And Jack sees Ennis’ inability to cope with the situation.  This is Jack’s revelation.  The focus is on Jack realizing the destructive effects that Ennis’ internalized homophobia have had on Ennis himself.  This is the key trigger for Jack to make his decision.  He had to see this.  This is where Ennis granted Jack’s wish.  Ennis showed Jack how to quit Ennis.

I honestly do not know the answer and I think you present a good argument. I am not convinced that Jack could do it. We know that Ennis was not ready to give up Jack (as evidenced by his initiating the November trip). However, when Ennis drives away, the look on Jack’s face indicates to me that he knows he will never see his love again.

Excellent conclusion to come to.  I take it a step further, but nothing wrong with what you said.

This is when what I read influences what I think. Both the short story and screenplay say: …

This is where you make it difficult for me.  In case you don’t know this about me, I don’t like mixing the short story, the screenplay, and the film for a number of reasons.  The primary reason is that they are all three different stories with different characters.  In each, the characters are described differently, act differently, say different things, are motivated differently, and react and respond differently.  It's not good to take a fact from the short story and apply it to the film.  For example, we know, from the film, that Ennis got himself a year a high school (although he failed grammar); from the film, we do not know Jack’s education level.  But, some people like to say Jack never finished high school either – the short story says so.  Well, fine for short story Jack, but he’s not film Jack.  Otherwise, where are his buck teeth and curly hair?  And just where is Ennis hiding poor little Francine?  But, if someone wants to believe that film Jack didn’t graduate high school, who cares?  It’s not important and it’s not contradicted by the film.

Now, when people look to the short story for character motivation, I’m much more open to that.  Because to me, it’s no different than going to Gone with the Wind and finding a similar situation and presenting an opinion of motivation.  We can buy it or not.  That said, here’s another twist.  When we look to the short story for either fact or motivation and it contradicts the film, then in discussions of the film, the film wins.  In our discussion, I believe the film and short story contradict each other.  “Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” is a very poor description of what happened in the film at the final fight scene.  There are any number of things that ended and began.  And, while Jack maybe did not make his resolve at that moment, I believe he did do so within a very short amount of time.

Based on both of these statements, I don’t think Jack could have ever given up Ennis.

I’m concerned when you use the words “given up.”  My post is about Jack releasing Ennis, not holding him captive, etc.  “Given up” sounds like “stop loving.”  Jack never stopped loving Ennis.  I know that and I think that’s what you’re saying here, but that’s not incompatible with releasing Ennis from his torment – in fact, it’s defined by it. 

Even if Jack would have shacked up with Randall, I still believe that he would have continued his “fishing trips” with Ennis.

Although this doesn’t speak well for Jack’s love for Randall, this is not incompatible with Jack ending his relationship with Ennis in order to set Ennis free from all of his inner torments, while still loving Ennis.

It is not that Jack was being selfish in staying with Ennis.

However, it would be after Ennis’ breakdown -- especially if nothing had changed.

They were just too enmeshed. The one was not complete without the other.

Again this is not incompatible with Jack ending his relationship with Ennis in order to set Ennis free from all of his inner torments, while still loving Ennis.

When Ennis realized he loved Jack, IMO, was when he broke down into Jack’s arms. He knew at that moment that Jack loved him, too.

To me, this is probably our greatest point of disagreement.  Ennis’ worlds were colliding and crashing and whizzing and pummeling him.  He’s not the sort of guy to get it all figured out while all of this is going on.  Ennis had to go through a slow process of realization.  It started with the words, fight, and breakdown of the final lake scene, Cassie was the major pivot point in the depot, then Lureen, then Mr. Twist, then Mrs. Twist, then the shirts.  And his understanding of all of this was confirmed by his final discussion with Alma Jr.

I don’t think Ennis or Jack saw their relationship as one for “just having fun” …

A major distinction has to be made here.  Until Ennis’ realization began, he convinced himself that their relationship was about “a good time.”  Two buds getting together, out in the middle of nowhere, having sex.  To us, the viewers, we see what it really was.  But it was impossible for Ennis to see it that way.  That’s the point of the movie.  That the destructive effects of homophobia took their greatest toll on Ennis himself such that he could not even recognize love.  This is supported by the key transition from the final lake scene to the bus depot.  Ennis, in the final lake scene, talking of their relationship in terms of a “good time,” and Cassie, in the bus depot, clueing Ennis in to the fact that a relationship isn’t about “fun” – it’s about love.  This is the purpose of the bus depot scene.  To wake Ennis up after twenty years.  The major distinction is between “what was” and “what Ennis called it.”

…if that would have been the case, they would have ended it long ago.

No.  It was the one way Ennis could define their relationship and keep all of his inner struggles in check.  He was just fine with this definition.  He had to be.  Jack went along with it because Jack knew Ennis’ limitations – he just didn’t realize the full extent of those limitations until the breakdown.  Remember, they came up with a half-baked definition of their relationship up on Brokeback in the “not queer” scene.  We, the viewers, knew it to be false.  Jack knew it to be false.  But they were both comfortable with it because it kept them together without Ennis having to face reality.  A false definition of their relationship stayed with them throughout their twenty years.  Simply because it kept them together.  It is without the false definition that they would have ended it a long time ago.

Keep in mind when Jack drove 14 hours after Ennis’ divorce …. Ennis was fully aware that Jack had just been devastated. Ennis also knew, when they were together for the last time, that Jack missed Ennis so much he could hardly handle it. It wasn’t that they were getting together to pass the time, ride horses, and f--k.  They were consistently drawn to each other by a deeper passion.

Yes.  We know that.  Jack knew that.  But Ennis hid from the truth.  We see that Ennis was confronted with the truth, Jack saw it, but Ennis still hid.  What Ennis really needed was for Jack **Nicholson** to come up to him and yell “You can’t handle the truth!” 

The whole film is about Ennis’ inability to reconcile his worlds into harmony – the destructive effects of rural homophobia.

Whew!  Heck of a good time!  Why do I have the feeling we'll have another round of this?

[Amber]

Here’s a sticky question… let’s say Jack “quit” Ennis.  And Jack moved up to Lightning Flat with the other fella.  Now, it’s five years later.  Ennis pays a call to say he’s ready, willing, and able.  Does Jack dump Randall?  Did Jack just accept Randall as a warm body?  Or did Jack make/allow himself to fall in love with Randall?  We’ve all heard that the first love is the strongest.  (I question this, though.)  So even if we all agree that any love that Jack would have for Randall is not as strong as the love Jack had for Ennis, would Jack dump Randall and his love for Randall after, let’s say, five years of living together?  I don’t want this to go the fan fiction route; rather, just a good discussion of our views of Jack’s and Ennis’ characters.

I believe that Jack would have dropped Randall in a heartbeat for Ennis, even after 5 years.  I think Jack settled for Randall because he couldn't have what he wanted and having Randall was better than having nothing.  I believe Jack quit Ennis hoping that Ennis would sort things out, come to his senses and make a move.  I don't think Jack would have spent much of his time investing in a relationship with Randall in the first place.  He invested a lot of time and energy into his true love and all it got him was heartache and a head full of beautiful memories and thoughts of things that never came to fruition.  I think it would be hard for him to fully involve himself in a relationship that he didn't really have the heart for after that experience.  So he may be shacking up with Randall and involved with him sexually but he wouldn't be "with" Randall the way he was/is with Ennis in his mind everyday. 

So in a simple answer, yes - I think Jack would have dropped Randall to have what he really wanted all along.  At least IMO.

The one was not complete without the other.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Athough I stated earlier I was glad to here the reason Jack could have quit Ennis was that he loved him, and it made me feel better so much I don't think he would have for the same reason.

Jack would never do anything to hurt Ennis and instinctivley knew that Ennis needed him as much as he needed Ennis. At the lake Ennis was so upset to hear about "Mexico", lashing out in anger. His response to Jack "I wish I knew...." I believe was oppisite what he meant, he had a real fear of loosing Jack, and the only person he could be himself with, at that point, if not why the tears? Jack coming to him with s'alright, the much need conforter he had often been. When Ennis said "I can't stand this..." I take it to mean that since he couldn't "fix..." he was comimg close to making a move to Jack.

I think the "I miss you so....." happened earlier in that camping trip and that is why Ennis put off telling Jack he couldn't make until Nov.

To BOTH of then I think the word queer or fag ment effeminate which clearly niether were.

As far as Randall, "It never came to pass"

[ruthlesslyunsentimental]

Jack would never do anything to hurt Ennis and instinctivley knew that Ennis needed him as much as he needed Ennis.

Which would hurt Ennis more – releasing him from his captivity or keeping him a captive?

[serious crayons]

*Sigh.* Ruthlessly, your scenario is thoroughly conceptualized and well written and brilliantly presented. But -- no surprise -- I disagree with a lot of it. Where to start? We're juggling so many assertions, and they're easier to take on one at a time, like bad guys in a cheesy fight scene. Pradoxically, much of my resistance really can be condensed into a few big disagreements. But they're the ones that tend to define a viewer's subjective interpretation of the entire movie.

And subjectivity ... well, that's another one of my problems. I've only seen the movie 15 times, which I know is measly by some standards  , but it's enough for me to have formed some fairly solid and cherished opinions. If we'd discussed this over coffee after the movie the first night I saw it ... But now, after countless hours spent here, formulating and defending my views, they're so established I can't see myself overhauling them.

But why should I overhaul them? They're my opinions, so I must have an airtight basis for them, hunh?

Well, um, yeah. Still, I'm not sure I can defend all of them with the steeltrap logic that you deploy, Ruthlessly, to support your theory. I, too, like using rational analysis and empirical evidence, not whims and emotional preferences. But I'm not sure I can marshall logic and evidence to support every belief. In so many instances I can imagine counterarguments that might seem to topple mine. I can already hear myself going, "But ... but ..."

So I'm afraid in the end I'll wind up making the kind of argument that I sometimes see other people make. They'll say they believe something just because they like to believe it, because they've grown to love Jack and Ennis a particular way and can't bear to cast them in an unfamiliar light. When I encounter that response, I often sort of roll my eyes and think that if I apply my searing logic they'll change their minds. And sometimes they actually do. But now that I am experiencing it from the other side, I find that sometimes you just want to believe something, even if you can't present unimpeachable evidence. (Great. So I'm abandoning the rationalism that I've upheld my entire life. I feel like one of those people standing on my doorstep with tracts. Next thing you know I'll be joining a cult. Or wait ... am I in one already?)

Anyway, here are some of my points of disagreement (I see they almost all pertain to Ennis -- 2:30 a.m. and I haven't even gotten to Jack! Also, my tenses switch back and forth from past to present, sorry, I usually try to fix that, but I'm not this time). Many of these are points I've made before -- either with you, Ruthlessly, or with others -- so I can anticipate some of the counterarguments that people might make. I've conveniently included a few of them here (they're not necessarily Ruthlessly's, just ones I've seen a lot). Anyway, feel free to reject either my views or the counterarguments or both -- or to overhaul your own views, once confronted by my searing airtight logic! 

Ennis certainly loved Jack, but he did not recognize it as “love,” he certainly did not accept it

He'd have to be a zombie (as MIkaela once beautifully put it) not to notice he was in love with Jack, even if he didn't call it that. First, he suffered for it constantly for four years. When Jack returned he could hardly believe his luck and happiness. Ennis risked all on that reunion kiss, showed in the motel scene how much he's thought about Jack, more or less told Jack he loved him. (People don't send up prayers of thanks for "fun.") Whenever he saw Jack, even in the otherwise awkward post-divorce scene, he always looked thrilled. There's no reason to believe he didn't long for Jack between rendezvous. Just because he didn't respond to "I miss you so much ..." doesn't mean he doesn't know that feeling. I believe he expressed it in ways both he and Jack understood. From a storytelling perspective, TS3 is not nothin. It's low-key, sure, but it's there for a reason, especially coming immediately after that unanswered last line. (Anticipated counterargument: You don't understand how deep some people's denial can go. Me: Maybe. It's true that my knowledge of human nature does not accomodate a situation in which the person is in total denial -- yet often behaves as if he were in total acceptance. In other words, if he couldn't acknowledge that he "whatevered" Jack, he couldn't also put on his best shirt and sit for hours with his face up to the window, struggling with nervousness and doubt, waiting for Jack to drive up. He would go about his chores or whatever, trying to behave in a way that matched what he was trying to get himself to believe.)

Ennis broke down and blamed Jack for being the way he was

He was lashing out, no more sincere at the lake than he was in the parallel scene when he punched Jack, an act he regretted for the next four f'in years.

after their initial time on the mountain ended. He was retching and this turned into anger.

He was retching mostly from heartbreak. Yes, he also seemed angry, partly at himself -- that was frustration. He had let the love of his life drive away and hadn't stopped him and felt helpless to fix the situation.

But it was not in Ennis’ character to allow deep-down feelings to rise to the surface and for him to admit them

I think he does admit them but hides them from others. He tries to hide them from himself, too, but never with complete success.

In his truest moment of self-realization and openness, told Jack that “I’m nothin’. I’m nowhere.”

He has probably thought so for years. But he doesn't literally hold Jack responsible for his N/N status. He recognizes that he's N/N because of the situation. Which, BTW, does not mean he really wants Jack to leave him be, even though he says that, too.

Jack suddenly sees Ennis in a different light. ... Ennis has never come to terms with his love or with their relationship or with himself, for that matter.

Jack knows Ennis isn't sincere. It's true that Ennis never has been able to reconcile those two warring feelings: I love a man; it's bad to be queer. They've been fighting each other in his mind for 20 years. Neither feeling has won (if it had, the stalemate would have ended), because Ennis believes he can't fix it and so struggles valiantly to stand it. It's not easy. It causes huge stress. So now he realizes that, in fact, he can't stand it.

If he can't stand it, is he going to escape it ... or fix it? For those who favor interpretations offering consistency and theme-building, which of these corollaries best fits Ennis' famous motto?

Jack also knows that the “quit” pain will ultimately be less disastrous to the man he loves (Ennis) than the “continue” pain is causing him.

Well, I don't think so myself, and I don't know Ennis as well as Jack does. When did he seem more unhappy: riding horses with Jack, even in that glum scene, or saying "Jack, I swear"? If Jack does think Ennis would be better off without him, he's wrong. Even in the long term. Much of the sadness of the ending rests on our understanding of how miserable Ennis will be for the rest of his life -- because he's without Jack. (Anticipated counterargument: But that's after he learns his lesson. Me: No, he'd be miserable if he lost Jack at any point in the story. The fact that he's learned something by then only makes it more poignant and ironic.)

Ennis can cope with rejection and abandonment ... But he cannot deal with his inner struggles – at least not this one. It’s just not his character.

How do we know this? Again, these are both big parts of his character. (Anticipated counterargument: because if the big problem were abandonment, it wouldn't fit the theme of the movie. Me: But does every damn thing have to adhere that closely to the presumed theme? I think we get the message bout the destructive effects of rural homophobia, in any case.)

Ennis loved Jack. But on the surface ... it was all just fun

It wasn't all that fun for Ennis. He took what for him were huge risks, lost jobs, lost his wife, battled his own cognitive dissonance -- even, potentially, risked a horrible death -- in order to be with Jack. It wasn't a day at the beach. But he did it because, no matter what, he wanted to be with Jack. A couple of HAFs a year wouldn't have been worth all this. And while we're on that subject, why do we assume he can shrug off HAFs in convincing himself he ain't queer (which in my view he doesn't believe anyway)? To me, that seems like it would fit right into the definition. (Anticipated counterargument: But you don't understand how people can -- Me: Oh, well, maybe. I don't know. Never mind.)

– it was a “thing” that grabbed him – at least, this is how Ennis rationalized it to himself.

It wasn't a matter of rationalizing, but being reluctant to put the L-word to it. But that he knew that it "grabbed" him -- was uncontrollable -- shows that he recognized how deep and powerful it was. Fun doesn't grab you at the wrong place, wrong time. Fun does, in fact, usually have reins on it. You don't ride fun as long as you can ride it, you ride it until it's no longer fun. Looks to me like at the end, it wasn't fun at all, yet Ennis was still ridin it. (Anticipated counterargument: What about Cassie's remark? Me: It's the "love" that triggered Ennis' epiphany, not the "fun." Anticipated counterargument to that: OK, but then same thing -- Ennis suddenly realized it was "love" with Jack. Me: Um, yeah. I agree that he had an epiphany, but I haven't totally figured out what it was. Maybe it was that love isn't always fun -- in fact, it's often not -- but it's worth honoring anyway?)

He didn’t send a postcard saying “OK, let’s set up housekeepin’ together.” It was just another invite

True, the words on the card weren't unusual. But we know Ennis is a man of few words even orally, let alone in writing. How much of his heart is he going to pour out on a postcard sent through his small-town post office?

Ennis says “Now this Kurt fella… he loves you?” This signals to us that Ennis has made the connection that Jack loved Ennis

This signals to me that Ennis has realized that love is more important than all other considerations (such as what kind of a guy Kurt is, or how she met him ... etc.). The lesson Ennis has learned is that he should not have put anything ahead of his love for Jack.

[ednbarby]

Which would hurt Ennis more – releasing him from his captivity or keeping him a captive?

It's probably pretty clear what my answer to this is.

And assuming that Randall did want more from Jack than just sex (I like to think he did mostly because Jack deserves more than that, and really, I can't see Jack foolishly mentioning another guy coming up to ranch with him in Lightning Flat to his parents knowing sex is all he wanted), I'd like to submit that I think there is something between getting to be with the love of your life exactly the way you want to be and settling.  That something is being with someone else who, while he may not elicit nearly the same intensity of passion in you as your one true love, does give you something else you need.  And someone who you do love, albeit in a different way.  I have to think that, otherwise I'd have been settling for the last nigh on 20 years.  And I don't think I've been doing that.  But not a day goes by that I don't think of the other one.  But would I have dropped everything for him had he changed his mind?  No.  I know that because he did (sort of) and I didn't.  Because it wasn't enough - he wasn't going to live with me - he was going to have us go on just as we had before, just more frequently and exclusively where he was concerned.

I just can't believe that Ennis would have ever lived with Jack openly, in Lightning Flat or anywhere.  There's the rub.  If you believe he would have, then it makes Ruthlessly's question even stickier.  Or maybe not - maybe it makes it really easy.  Still, I think that if Jack had set up house with Randall and a while later (doesn't really matter how long) Ennis came and begged him to take him back, promising to live with him like Randall was, the answer would still have been no.  And Ennis' doing that would devastate Jack.  But it is not in his nature to reneg on a promise, and I believe he would have come to love Randall, just in a different way.  Of course he'd never stop loving Ennis.  But, and not to be flippant, I find that old Rolling Stones line really applies, here - you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need.

[Jeff Wrangler]

And assuming that Randall did want more from Jack than just sex (I like to think he did mostly because Jack deserves more than that, and really, I can't see Jack foolishly mentioning another guy coming up to ranch with him in Lightning Flat to his parents knowing sex is all he wanted).

Jack does, indeed, deserve more than and better than that. I'm not meanin' to pick on you, Barb, nor do I mean to be perverse or beside the point--just that I've come to think it's important to realize that we don't have anything more than assumptions to go on with Randall. Evidently for years Jack talked about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, and that never happened--and here even I'm assuming that was because of Ennis, but do we really know whether Jack ever even brought that subject up to Ennis? By the time of Jack's death, I guess he and Randall had known each other for about three years, so you might think Jack would know by then whether or not Randall's intentions were honorable, as the saying used to be, but maybe our dear, optimistic Jack didn't really know. Or maybe he was just day-dreaming out loud.

I've also assumed that Jack died before he had time to try to bring about moving up to his folks' ranch with Randall--and I really don't see any reason to change my own assumption on this point, despite John Twist's snide remark that this was another of Jack's plans that didn't come to pass. But that still begs the point: What evidence do we have that Randall wanted anything more from Jack than a couple of lakeside fucks one or twice a year?

Poor Jack. He deserved so much better than he got out of life. 

[ednbarby]

We don't have any evidence of that, Jeff, you're right.  I was just answering Ruthlessly's question and making that assumption to do it.

Had Jack not ended up seriously involved with Randall and had Ennis finally come around, and by that I mean agreed to ranch up with him, I'm not even sure Jack would have been able to do that - Ennis would always be conflicted about it and afraid for both their lives, and Jack wouldn't want to have him that way if he weren't 100% up to it.  And I just don't think Ennis ever would be.  I feel certain, though, that Jack no longer wanted to continue on with things the way they were with Ennis, Randall or no Randall, for all the reasons Ruthlessly and I have already thrown out there.  Doesn't mean I think that's the only answer - it's just the way I can't help but see it.