Author Topic: Why Jack Quit Ennis  (Read 44421 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2006, 01:23:10 pm »
What evidence do we have that Randall wanted anything more from Jack than a couple of lakeside fucks one or twice a year?

Not even high-altitude in their case, hunh?

I am willing to believe Randall cared about Jack on a deeper level than that. But it's kind of moot and speculative anyway, isn't it, since it never came to pass?

Jack either brought up the ranching idea with Randall and got an encouraging response of some sort, or knows Randall well enough to consider it viable, or pins his hopes on it even though as with Ennis it's at best a remote possibility. Randall -- though obviously more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis -- might be hesitatant for similar reasons, or reluctant to leave LaShawn, or afraid of losing his kids. Or he's all for it.

In any case, Jack mentions the plan to the folks. Even the mention might have been casual and iffy.

So would the idea have come to pass if Jack had lived? No way of knowing.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2006, 04:05:13 pm »
I'm sorry to go way OT here for a minute, but I feel terrible about something and this seems like the best place to address it.

Somebody just PMed me and said they were offended when in my previous post I said,

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When I encounter that response, I often sort of roll my eyes and think that if I apply my searing logic they'll change their minds.

The person asked if I was joking. And in fact, I was. Sometimes I get into discussions that begin to feel like debates. Actually, I enjoy them. So in this particular case, I was making fun of myself, being facetious. Of course you can't apply searing logic to every aspect of a movie with huge emotional impact. That's what I was trying to say. Ironically, it sounds like the PMer read that it just the opposite way, and looking back I guess I can see how that's possible.

So anyway, if this were only a disagreement about one line or with one person, it could easily be cleared up. To start with, I would rush to change the line or the whole post. I'm mortified to think that anybody would misinterpret and be offended by it. (I am tempted to delete the whole thing, but I'm leaving it up so people will know what I'm referring to.) To anyone else who was hurt or offended by that line or anything else in that post, I really, really apologize.

But I want to say more, because the person also said s/he has resented my attitude on other posts, and that others have complained about it, too. The PM was quite strongly stated, including using the word "arrogant" three times. S/he said this has created an unpleasant environment, not entirely because of me but at least partly. S/he said s/he feels like s/he's being "run off the threads." Meanwhile, Phillip has written a very nice diplomatic post elsewhere on this forum about this same issue.

I like debating things and sometimes I probably come on too strong (that's the attitude of mine I was making fun of above). I really don't think I'm the only one who likes to debate; many of us here often pose pretty formidable opinions. Personally, I don't mind that; in fact I think it's fun. I assumed it was fun for others, too. Not for everybody, I see now.

I really, really like everyone here.  So I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel about the news that others have been angered or offended. I don't want anyone here ever to feel bad, let alone bad enough to leave. I was upset when four people left yesterday, because I like all of those people and will miss them. it's dismaying to think that people get unhappy enough to make a dramatic exit (though in that case, the issues appear to have been very different).

So I'm really sorry to hijack your thread, Ruthlessly. I apologize to you and to everyone else. I figure most of the people I talk to most will be likely to read this sooner or later, so goes to all of you. I'm going to try to be much more careful from now on.

 :'(

If anybody has any response to the above, one way or another, please PM me rather than post it here so I won't have to feel any guiltier than I already do about going so OT. Now everybody get back to discussing -- in a nice way! -- why Jack quit Ennis.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 04:07:00 pm by latjoreme »

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2006, 06:48:00 pm »
Still, I think that if Jack had set up house with Randall and a while later (doesn't really matter how long) Ennis came and begged him to take him back, promising to live with him like Randall was, the answer would still have been no.  And Ennis' doing that would devastate Jack.  But it is not in his nature to reneg on a promise, and I believe he would have come to love Randall, just in a different way.  Of course he'd never stop loving Ennis.

 I agree 100%.



ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2006, 06:58:21 pm »
...we don't have anything more than assumptions to go on with Randall.

The only things we "know for sure" are that Randall came on to Jack, Jack may have been having his time with Randall (we all agree, I think, that it's NOT LaShawn... but, the fact that Jack lied about an affair with LaShawn... could he also be lying about having any affair at all?  Maybe Jack wasn't sleeping with either?), and Jack did mention bringing up another guy (to me, it's clear that it's Randall, but who knows?).


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I've also assumed that Jack died before he had time to try to bring about moving up to his folks' ranch with Randall--and I really don't see any reason to change my own assumption on this point, despite John Twist's snide remark that this was another of Jack's plans that didn't come to pass. But that still begs the point: What evidence do we have that Randall wanted anything more from Jack than a couple of lakeside fucks one or twice a year?

I agree with all of this.  And your question about what Randall himself wanted out of whatever relationship he may have had with Jack, and your question about whether Jack was just pie-in-the-sky'ing it... -- both great questions!


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Poor Jack. He deserved so much better than he got out of life.  :(

Who could disagree?  They'd have to be a dumbass mule...




ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2006, 07:01:26 pm »
Randall -- though obviously more comfortable with his sexuality than Ennis --

Ya think?   :laugh:


Everything else you said in this post is spot on, imho.
 





ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2006, 07:50:34 pm »
I'm sorry to go way OT here for a minute, but I feel terrible about something and this seems like the best place to address it.

Somebody just PMed me and said they were offended when in my previous post I said, …


Quote
If anybody has any response to the above, one way or another, please PM me rather than post it here so I won't have to feel any guiltier than I already do about going so OT.


Sorry to go against your wishes, latjoreme, but since I’m the original poster, I’ll take the right to do so – I’m going to post a response here – because you deserve public support.

Obviously I do not know the complete contents of the PM that was sent to you.  But I do know what you said here.  And I do know what you wrote in your post above.  And I read the context of it.  If someone misunderstood and asked whether you were joking, fine.  No problem.  But if someone made a conscious choice to take offense at what you wrote – and thereby implicitly accused you of an intent to offend – AND then consciously and with intent acted offensively to you by calling you arrogant and accusing you of an “attitude” -- then phewy!

Without a clear intent to offend from the original speaker/writer, offense taken by the listener/reader is a personal conscious choice and decision.  There is nothing you can do to stop that someone from choosing to do that.  Inadvertent, whimsical remarks made on a message board such as this one are not the place to find offense in life.  A very simple response of “Sorry if you were offended” is completely sufficient.  I do not like that anyone put you in a place where you felt you had to post all that you posted in your apology.  I understand why you did it and I’m sorry that someone else put you in that position.

I know whereof I speak.  I was put into a similar position on this board.  Same kind of criticism.  Dismiss it.  Each person in this forum has his or her own unique personality.  And I treasure that.  In all of the threads that I've read and posted to I have not seen one post by anyone that I would have taken offense at or that I felt showed an undue  or inappropriate attitude. 


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Of course you can't apply searing logic to every aspect of a movie with huge emotional impact.

Of course you can.  Anyone can.  If that’s the way a person wants to approach the film, then I can’t figure out what in the world would give any other person any business at all to take an issue with that personal choice.


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I am tempted to delete the whole thing, …

You damn well better not!  I still have to respond to it!   ;D


Quote
… the person also said s/he has resented my attitude on other posts, and that others have complained about it, too.

Tough shit.  It’s NOT about your attitude.  It’s about that person’s assumptions about your attitude.  You have NEVER displayed an “attitude” or arrogance that I have seen.  Quite the opposite.  The focus should be on that person’s assumptions.  Interesting, isn’t it, that that person can accuse you of having an “attitude” and being “arrogant” when you didn’t intend it, but that person then intended to make the assumption and then had the gall to tell you about it with intentionally offensive words.

As to "running people off" -- EVERYONE has a right to state his or her own opinion and to state it strongly and directly and to take ownership of it.  EVERYONE has a right to disagree and to say so.  Everyone has the opportunity to argue his or her position and to counterargue other positions.  If someone felt "run off" without having someone starting to get personal and insulting, then too bad... try harder next time.



Latjoreme – if you change the way you are just because someone chose to take offense at an unintentional remark AND THEN was intentionally offensive to you… well, I’ll be sorely disappointed.









Offline dly64

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2006, 07:54:14 pm »
I like debating things and sometimes I probably come on too strong (that's the attitude of mine I was making fun of above). I really don't think I'm the only one who likes to debate; many of us here often pose pretty formidable opinions. Personally, I don't mind that; in fact I think it's fun. I assumed it was fun for others, too. Not for everybody, I see now.

I really, really like everyone here.  So I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel about the news that others have been angered or offended. I don't want anyone here ever to feel bad, let alone bad enough to leave. I was upset when four people left yesterday, because I like all of those people and will miss them. it's dismaying to think that people get unhappy enough to make a dramatic exit (though in that case, the issues appear to have been very different).

Girl! You know I love debating ... so I hope that you don't stop giving your opinion. I am sorry to hear that people were upset. Just to let you know, I really enjoy hearing what you have to say (even though we don't always agree ... that's the fun of it, IMO!)
Diane

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2006, 09:43:11 pm »
I agree 100%.

Thank you, my dear.  As I agree 100% with your most recent response to Katherine.

As someone who's been accused of having an attitude and being arrogant on another board at which I thought everyone understood or at least respected me, it makes my heart hurt to hear that someone who has taken such great pains not to offend as Katherine has here is being lambasted privately for being willfully offensive.  I've seen people post truly nasty, hurtful things with attitude on other boards, but very rarely here - *much* more rarely here, in fact, than I've ever encountered in 10+ years of posting in online forums - and Katherine has never been one of them as far as I'm concerned.



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Offline dly64

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2006, 10:17:01 pm »
As someone who's been accused of having an attitude and being arrogant on another board at which I thought everyone understood or at least respected me, it makes my heart hurt to hear that someone who has taken such great pains not to offend as Katherine has here is being lambasted privately for being willfully offensive.  I've seen people post truly nasty, hurtful things with attitude on other boards, but very rarely here - *much* more rarely here, in fact, than I've ever encountered in 10+ years of posting in online forums - and Katherine has never been one of them as far as I'm concerned.

DITTO!!! Are we all in agreement!? Katherine - DON'T CHANGE!!!
Diane

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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Why Jack Quit Ennis
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2006, 10:17:58 pm »
I'm only through page one right now but I can't read 2 and 3 at this minute. I'm not alone in the room and I am really struggling to stay composed. Or, well, subtle.

I really am just stunned. I had never really thought Jack could move on -- in his heart, he never will -- but this essay makes PERFECT sense and is totally clear (it makes me love the movie even more -- which somehow is still possible... ??).

But, Good God, this is such a profound, heartbreaking cap to one of my sadder Brokeback days. This morning all I did was simply pop in the DVD to check ONE THING, caught sight of the wrong scene (there's something heartbreaking to me about seeing the boys getting old and bogged down by life in the "Maybe you oughtta get outta there, come down to Texas" scene.) and before I knew it, I was in hysterical tears, locked in the bathroom.

But bravo, ruthlessly, on a clear, revelatory essay ... and bravo to the filmmakers -- how people call this film 'mediocre' (or less) is beyond me.
If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
We missed out on each other now


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