Author Topic: Stop the Hate  (Read 18688 times)

garycottle

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Stop the Hate
« on: March 02, 2009, 07:21:35 pm »
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 03:07:18 am by garycottle »

Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 07:47:08 pm »
I am extremely liberal.  I believe in progressive taxation, market regulation, support for universal health care, anti-discrimination and universal civil rights, anti-poverty measures and universal education policy, against aggressive military postures except where the US or its allies are directly threatened, pro choice, pro-gay rights and gay marriage, and absolutely against the death penalty.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 08:04:43 pm »
   

     I am very extremely liberal.  I believe that the least amount of prohibitions we have by law, the more free we are.  I don't
believe in any discriminatory acts, other than those that do direct harm to others.  I am not even in favor of drug laws that
keep people from pot, cocaine or any other form of recreational use that doesnt harm others.  I believe that the more we
try to condemn and restrict others rights, the more we lose our own.
     I believe in free enterprise also as long as it also is kept from harming others by the practices that inhibit the workers and
the rest of society from being used unfairly and against their own choices.  I guess you could say I am so far left, that I am
tending toward the communist side in some issues.  I believe that medical care should be provided to all.  Not just those that
happen to be rich enough to afford it.  I believe that we should all have the same rights as well to education, and the
abilities to learn a trade or profession that will not only help us to provide a decent living for ourselves and our families, but
also to strengthen the country as a whole.  Without a well educated populace, then this country will always be at the
mercy of those that do provide a better education to its people...



     Beautiful mind

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 08:53:57 pm »
I'm a conservative liberal.

I had to think a long time, wondering if I was actually a liberal conservative, but I finally came down on the side of conservative liberal.

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 09:56:41 pm »


I had to think a long time, wondering if I was actually a liberal conservative, but I finally came down on the side of conservative liberal.


Liberal liberal for me, please--mit schlag.    ;D
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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2009, 10:27:08 pm »
my political philosophy? :laugh:

well, I do know a few people that are further to the right than me. 

Offline Lynne

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 11:50:03 pm »
I am extremely liberal politically.

I think that the purpose of a government is to serve its citizens.  The Preamble was referred to in a different thread...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I had a serious junior high school civics teacher who drilled The Constitution and the Bill of Rights into my brain at a tender age of about 13.  I take both documents extremely seriously.

Back before the religious right had such a dominant role in the Republican party, I could differentiate the two parties on a few philosophical grounds...To oversimplify, the Republicans were for smaller government, except in the case of national defense, less regulation of the free market, less interference in individual lives, and a greater deal of fiscal responsibility.  In contrast, the Democrats typically wanted to expand social programs, especially aid to poor families, health, and education, wanted more regulation in the free market, and tended to be perceived as less fiscally responsible.

Back then, I could make sound arguments for either case.  Now, I'm at a loss to explain how the conservative party went so far afield, but as best I can tell they do not have anything to offer me.  And that feeling has only intensified since they've embraced the religious right.  I don't get what part of 'separation of church and state' they don't understand.  (And yes, I feel the same way about President Obama continuing the faith-based initiatives, for now).

I worked for our national defense for 18 years, developing imaging technology, and then assisting with their financial transactions.  I know all about how government does and does not work.

I want my tax dollars to be spent making sure that every American citizen has equal rights and equal opportunities for 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'  It's not enough that the laws are on the books; they have to be enforced.  This means equality in education, job opportunities, civil liberties (and yes, I include gay marriage here).

This means enforcing the gun control laws we do have; giving our policemen and social workers more training and putting more of them on the streets where they can do the most good.

I want my money spent on education so that our children are at minimum the equal of any other nation in the world.  And I mean all the children, not just the ones whose parents can afford to educate privately or homeschool.  Anything else is both foolish and short-sided, and I'm constantly being Cassandra on this issue, but if we don't act yesterday, we are dooming our future generations to working second and third class jobs because they don't have even rudimentary math and reading skills, never mind advanced math, physics, calculus, engineering, technology.  It's a disgrace.  Hell, I doubt we'll have poets, psychologists, philosophers, or economists in the future either.

And while they're in school, we can teach science in science classes and mythology in literature classes.  And the science classes will include the mechanics of reproduction and birth control.  Clearly, their parents aren't doing it.

To me it is absolutely inexcusable that every American citizen does not have basic health care.  I think the 'free market' has run amok letting the AMA and pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies define policy instead of the People telling the government and these quasi-governmental and private agencies and their lobby interests what WE as consumers (consumers of government and consumers of health care) have the right to expect.

What else?  There are American citizens sleeping on the streets tonight because there is not a workable safety net in place for people who fall through the cracks in our society.

I won't wiki the number, but an disproportionate number of the homeless are veterans of <insert war here>.  The way we take care of our veterans is shameful.  We are happy to trot the troops out in all their glory, flags flying, hands over hearts while we stand for the National Anthem - it's only proper - and I respect and honor each and every one of them.  But when they come home unlucky enough to not be dead (meaning missing limbs, or with other horrible injuries including PTSD, have trouble finding work, etc..) there's just not enough funding or political will to take care of them even though they sacrificed their very lives (or the quality thereof) because they were asked to by some bureaucrat behind a desk.

And I'll add here that both the veterans' and the homeless problems are exacerbated by a society that stigmatizes mental illness as different from physical illness.

Which brings me to our elderly, and how they're frequently shuffled off into substandard nursing or rehabilitation homes.  The government may pick up the tab for some, but these places are understaffed and underfunded.  The pay is so poor that only the very selfless or the untrustworthy work in such conditions.  There should be provisions made to make it affordable for families to take care of their elders at home when at all possible.

If you don't believe our values as a nation are completely skewed - compare the salary of a teacher or a nurse or a nurses aide with an actor or sports figure or even news program talking head.

Foreign policy.  We used to be a nation respected world-wide for our ingenuity and integrity and self-reliance.  Those days are over and may or may not be salvageable.  Because we were/are so free with (selling/bartering) our weapons technology, tossing out poli sci concepts like mutual deterrence, many of the governments which I consider to be unstable have weapons as good as ours, up to and including the nuclear weapons.  I love how our nation's collective memory is so short that we don't remember that it was US who trained and armed bin Laden in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union in the first place.  (That's irony.)

We live in a global society - a global economy.  We can take that seriously, consider the concerns of the rest of the world soberly and try to get along with our allies and make allies out of our enemies.  Or not, at our peril.

I think I've said enough for now.  And I doubt there's any gray area where my position isn't pretty clear.

None of these issues have simple answers, but I believe that the Democratic party at least recognizes the problems as the enormous problems they are and want to address them from a standpoint of making the world a better place, and as a consequence the lives of American citizens better.  It took us a long time to get into this mess and it'll likely take us as long to get us out.  I don't 'worship' Obama; he's just a man, albeit one smart enough to know what kind of mess he's gotten himself into.  But I think he has both his head and his heart in the right place and wants to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Monika

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 12:12:46 am »
Well, I´m not a conservative  :)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 12:18:47 am »
I'm a left leaning fiscal moderate, meaning I'm mostly liberal but there are a few things I feel conservative about when it comes to fiscal issues.

I'm a social liberal. Very liberal. :)

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 02:52:23 am »
Quote
I actually find these labels demeaning. They are over simplifications that say very little, and often incorrectly, about a person's actual points of view. More than I can count on this forum, the query has been thrust in my face..."how can you be gay and a conservative"? ie, if the label fits, wear it, or else. Hogwash.

I think Gary's question is perfectly valid. I don't think it is demeaning at all. Every Conservative on this forum has proudly proclaimed he or she is Republican and/or Conservative. Believe it or not, there ARE some liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats in this county. And the word "Conservative" is not a naughty word! Not even here on Bettermost!  ;)  :laugh:

I have lots of Conservative friends, and yes even a few gay Conservative friends! I don't have a problem with them and they don't have a problem with me. :D

Quote
Johnny can't finish his homework; he's really stuck and won't be allowed to go out and play until it's done.

Everyone agrees Johnny needs and should have help.

The conservative takes Johnny to the library, shows him the resource area, gives him some pointers, and sets him on his way to finish his homework, by himself.

The liberal gives Johnny the answers, or does Johnny's homework, and Johnny goes out to play.


Bullshit!

The liberal ensures Johnny first has the necessary resources available inside the library and fixes it if he doesn't. Then the liberal monitors Johnny to make certain he is getting the help he needs. The liberal doesn't do the work for Johnny... the liberal only wants Johnny to have all he needs in order to get a good education. :)

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 03:16:10 am »
Sorry davidinindy. Can't usurp the point I made for your own and turn it into a positive representation of liberalism. and profanity doesn't make your point any more strong!  ;)



Perhaps it didn't. But your original point was extremely weak as well. ;)

NOBODY is trying to do anyone's homework. You know better than that! Don't you?

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pnwDUDE

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 03:28:59 am »
I agree with HerrKaiser and labels.

I believe anyone who considers themselves extreme one way or the other is, well, fucked up. Just look at Tim McVey. He was an extremist right-winger.

I'm left of many issues and right of more, but I really don't fit into a category or label. Don't know why so many wanna draw a line and demand one be one or the other. I've seen it most of my life. So many demands by the gay community that a guy or gal has to be left-wing or turn in his/her gay membership card if he/she isn't. I've been told that. Sorry, but as it has been proven (I dare anyone try to disprove me by Google searches, Wikipedia, or their favorite left-leaning blog/info source) by the very members here that there are many of us who are gay/queer/fags/homo's/alternate lifestyle types who don't subscribe or adhere to the lock-step, sted-fast rules of the liberal left.

Brad 

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2009, 03:36:10 am »
I agree with HerrKaiser and labels.

I believe anyone who considers themselves extreme one way or the other is, well, fucked up. Just look at Tim McVey. He was an extremist right-winger.

I'm left of many issues and right of more, but I really don't fit into a category or label. Don't know why so many wanna draw a line and demand one be one or the other. I've seen it most of my life. So many demands by the gay community that a guy or gal has to be left-wing or turn in his/her gay membership card if he/she isn't. I've been told that. Sorry, but as it has been proven (I dare anyone try to disprove me by Google searches, Wikipedia, or their favorite left-leaning blog/info source) by the very members here that there are many of us who are gay/queer/fags/homo's/alternate lifestyle types who don't subscribe or adhere to the lock-step, sted-fast rules of the liberal left.

Brad 

Hi Brad!

I understand what both you and HK are saying, but I really don't think Gary is asking something controversial or unacceptable. He was simply asking a question. Those who feel offended need not answer. It really is that simple. But those wishing to proclaim a political party may do so here! ;)

I think that was Gary's point.


BTW... have you played your train simulator again Brad? I'd still like to find a copy of it and load it on my computer. It sounds like a lot of fun! :D

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pnwDUDE

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2009, 04:49:28 am »
Hi Brad!

I understand what both you and HK are saying, but I really don't think Gary is asking something controversial or unacceptable. He was simply asking a question. Those who feel offended need not answer. It really is that simple. But those wishing to proclaim a political party may do so here! ;)

I think that was Gary's point.


BTW... have you played your train simulator again Brad? I'd still like to find a copy of it and load it on my computer. It sounds like a lot of fun! :D


I know what Gary was putting forth. I took his survey. What I am responding to are ones on the left or right who consider themselves extreme. I believe that is the divide in this country. Extremism. And I think they are the ones with the loose screws. IMO, of course.

Brad

Offline Berit

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2009, 07:40:48 am »
I admit, I'm a leftie...... :laugh:...always been, always will be......
Ennis.....always Ennis.....

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 09:04:48 am »
Perhaps it didn't. But your original point was extremely weak as well. ;)

NOBODY is trying to do anyone's homework. You know better than that! Don't you?



I agree with David.  It's extremely presumptuous to say conservatives are for 'people' while liberals are for 'groups'.  The argument could easily be turned around and show that conservatives care little for individuals - being easily able to deny those who aren't individually successful healthcare or a woman the right to choose or a gay person the right to marry but plenty for groups - especially those with money and so-called family values.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 03:51:36 pm »


I'm perfectly comfortable calling myself very, very liberal.  Or, even extemely liberal.

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Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 04:05:54 pm »
I take issue with Kaiser trying to define what "liberal" is.  Gary asked us to state what we are for, not what we are against, in terms of what we vote for.  Not to use it as a pillbox to take potshots at political opponents.  Maybe we can stick to that?
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 06:45:26 pm »




The conservative takes Johnny to the library, shows him the resource area, gives him some pointers, and sets him on his way to finish his homework, by himself.

The liberal gives Johnny the answers, or does Johnny's homework, and Johnny goes out to play.

Liberals seem to think it is nicer to give the answers to Johnny rather than see him work it out himself. They see Johnny as a kid who needs a special class at school with others "just like him". Conservatives think it is better to instill personal triumph as an individual able to accomplish tasks if given the chance to succeee. They try to develop responsibility so as an adult, Johnny is not only self sufficient, but an asset to society.
------------------------------------------

    This is hogwash... you said that the two of you were angry, and upset because she pigeon holed you into a spot that
she thought that you fit.  Saying that you were just not like that, and proceeded to relay how you felt you truly stood,
and believed.   Sir that is exactly what you are doing in this instance to the liberals.  I would do none of the things that
you claim that I would have done because I am liberal.   So please if you wish to not be placed in ticky tacky boxes because
of your own beliets.  Please dont then do it to us, for the same reasons. 



     Beautiful mind

Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 11:07:28 pm »
I don't think you have any right to take issue with what I post. It would be appreciated if you would not be so judgemental and mean spirited.

Sure I do.  I think you're wrong.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2009, 10:00:49 am »
Text deleted by original poster.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 01:05:05 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2009, 11:21:12 am »
well, I'm pretty conservative on most issues.
My Grandpa told me once when I was younger and asked what a republican was and what a democrat was he answerd "If you want to control your own money, if you think you can do things for yourself better than the government can do it for you,if you want to take responsibility for your own life and day to day doings you are a republican. If you think the government knows better what to do with your money, if you think the government should have more control over you life and day to day doing then you are a democrat.
It was an easy decision for me. Thats a very simplified explanation and the republicans as of late sure haven't held to those stadards.
but all in all i guess I'm still conservative on most issues and less so on others. I guess I am more fiscally conservative and not as much on the social side of things.  I'm for less taxes more personal responsibility and less federal government and more personal freedoms as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others and disrupt society. So whatever that makes me, thats what I am.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2009, 11:53:05 am »
But all in all i guess I'm still conservative on most issues and less so on others. I guess I am more fiscally conservative and not as much on the social side of things.  I'm for less taxes more personal responsibility and less federal government and more personal freedoms as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others and disrupt society. So whatever that makes me, thats what I am.

I think you have plenty of company there, Rich. The trouble is that of late Republicans have gone social conservative as well as fiscal conservative, and it seems to me have emphasized the social conservative program. They claim to be against big government, except they don't seem to have trouble letting the government intrude into bedrooms and gynecologists' offices.

My view, FWIW.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2009, 01:08:41 pm »


I take Jeff's comment to mean that the social conservatives in the Republican party feel no hesitation at having government control/restrict/meddle with the rights of gay people and the rights of women to make their own medical decisions, along with their doctors of course. 


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karen1129

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2009, 02:12:50 pm »
Why do you think it is over the top?

For a great many conservatives, that is truly how they view gay rights and abortion issues.




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 02:16:13 pm »
Why do you think it is over the top?

For a great many conservatives, that is truly how they view gay rights and abortion issues.


Yes, I agree Karen.  Anti-gay and anti-abortion positions seem to be fundamental to a lot of social conservative platforms.

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Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 02:17:01 pm »
Not just this, but it is the OFFICIAL NATIONAL REPUBLICAN PLATFORM.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 02:23:00 pm »
I take Jeff's comment to mean that the social conservatives in the Republican party feel no hesitation at having government control/restrict/meddle with the rights of gay people and the rights of women to make their own medical decisions, along with their doctors of course. 

That's exactly what I meant, Amanda.  ;)

Republicans don't like big government, except when it restricts the rights of people Republicans don't like. Then they're perfectly OK with big government.

And I also meant to suggest that the party is now dominated by right-wing socio-religious conservatives, for whom the social issues are more important than fiscal conservatism.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Lynne

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2009, 02:59:54 pm »
I've been thinking about this 'extreme' idea and I have mixed feelings about the word and its usage.  I wrote a pretty extreme post, but I stand behind every word as my personal opinion on matters.  I thought it might be too over-the-top, so I PM'd garycottle to ask if he'd rather I move it to my blog and he said no, so I'll let it be.

It should go without saying that I'm opposed to extreme actions Timothy McVeigh or Osama bin Laden style.  I wonder if it is true that the source of the polarization we see in our nation is really a result of extremist viewpoints.

For instance, you're never going to get me to concede to the RR that Roe v Wade should be overturned.  And it's not because I'm pro-abortion.  I think if sex education were properly implemented, there'd be little to no need of abortion services.  I feel the way I do because I believe very strongly in a woman's right to privacy and reproductive freedom.

Is that extreme?  I don't see much middle ground.  I'm even opposed to required parental notification because there are too many cases where a male family member is the father.  A sad state of affairs, but I would rather place the trust in the young woman to make the decision that is best for her, hopefully with some counseling from professionals involved.

Nevertheless, there's a world of difference between thinking blowing up buildings, murdering innocent people, is a good solution compared to holding strong convictions on political issues with evidence to support your positions, lobbying your representatives to implement policies you agree with and to oppose those you don't, and supporting/voting for candidates who hold views similar to your own.
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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2009, 03:49:10 pm »

It should go without saying that I'm opposed to extreme actions Timothy McVeigh or Osama bin Laden style.  I wonder if it is true that the source of the polarization we see in our nation is really a result of extremist viewpoints.


Lynne, I believe it is. For rigid liberals and entrenched conservatives, there is no middle ground regarding the issues (which we don't need to list, cause' we know em'). With no middle ground or flexibility, we remain at odds. This is why peaceful negotiations regarding ideals or tyrany have rarely worked as long as man has walked this earth. What has worked is war because there is no middle-ground.

If I were to say I am extremely conservative (which no one here has said he/she is, and I don't think there is one that is a Bettermost member), what would one assume.  I'm an atheist. I vote for equal rights. I have and will continue to vote for Democrats if they stand for fiscal conservatism and my idea of what government is or isn't.  Extreme liberalism has as many negatives as extreme conservatism in the eyes of a right-leaning individual and for this discussion, I'm not thinking of bin Ladens & McVeighs, but they are true extremists and my statement got people thinking.

When the only thing people have in common is these threads, we become icons and avatars. When we post an ideal and it flies in the face of someones values/beliefs there seems to be this need by some to prove the other wrong. I don't reckon if we all had the wherewithall to get together once a week or month for drinks, etc., the constant hot topic would be politics, religion, and trying to prove each other wrong. When we know where each other is coming from, decide if other social components are compatible with ours, and move on.

Brad



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 04:33:06 pm »
For instance, you're never going to get me to concede to the RR that Roe v Wade should be overturned.  And it's not because I'm pro-abortion.  I think if sex education were properly implemented, there'd be little to no need of abortion services.  I feel the way I do because I believe very strongly in a woman's right to privacy and reproductive freedom.

I believe I'm with you here, Lynne. If you'll pardon the metaphor, to me abortion is like locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen.

Quote
Is that extreme?  I don't see much middle ground.  I'm even opposed to required parental notification because there are too many cases where a male family member is the father.  A sad state of affairs, but I would rather place the trust in the young woman to make the decision that is best for her, hopefully with some counseling from professionals involved.

For myself I've never been able to come to a satisfactory conclusion on parental notification. I see what you're saying about a family member, but I'm still troubled by the notion of a young teenager undergoing a surgical procedure without her parents knowing about it.

OTOH, a morning-after pill? That doesn't trouble me.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2009, 04:34:25 pm »
Yes, I agree Karen.  Anti-gay and anti-abortion positions seem to be fundamental to a lot of social conservative platforms.


I agree

Offline Monika

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 04:37:28 pm »
Lynne, I believe it is. For rigid liberals and entrenched conservatives, there is no middle ground regarding the issues (which we don't need to list, cause' we know em'). With no middle ground or flexibility, we remain at odds. This is why peaceful negotiations regarding ideals or tyrany have rarely worked as long as man has walked this earth. What has worked is war because there is no middle-ground.

If I were to say I am extremely conservative (which no one here has said he/she is, and I don't think there is one that is a Bettermost member), what would one assume.  I'm an atheist. I vote for equal rights. I have and will continue to vote for Democrats if they stand for fiscal conservatism and my idea of what government is or isn't.  Extreme liberalism has as many negatives as extreme conservatism in the eyes of a right-leaning individual and for this discussion, I'm not thinking of bin Ladens & McVeighs, but they are true extremists and my statement got people thinking.

When the only thing people have in common is these threads, we become icons and avatars. When we post an ideal and it flies in the face of someones values/beliefs there seems to be this need by some to prove the other wrong. I don't reckon if we all had the wherewithall to get together once a week or month for drinks, etc., the constant hot topic would be politics, religion, and trying to prove each other wrong. When we know where each other is coming from, decide if other social components are compatible with ours, and move on.

Brad




To say that one is extremely liberal does not mean that one is an extremist. The word "extreme" is used in many contexts and people´s understanding of it varies.
In this case, however, it´s pretty clear that the posters intended the word to mean "very"

Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2009, 05:22:30 pm »
At the far left of the political left are what are referred to as "progressives."  Progressive politics centers on reform of and change from traditional and conservative (historical models), and emphasizes a change to the old and worn out ideologies, including the traditional ideological stances of both conservatism and liberalism, and based upon the concept that the world is dynamic and needs dynamic changes in the political sphere to meet them.

I would be one of those.  In fact, there is an entire slice of political independents that are known as Independent Progressives, and that is where my politics are.  Unfortunately for us progressives, however, the Democrats have a tendency to want to keep the power structures of the government about where they are, and perpetuate their own place within them.  The progressives' choice for a presidential candidate in 2004 was Howard Dean, and they reluctantly backed Kerry once Dean fell out of the race.  Progressives were divided unequally between Edwards and Obama early in the 2008 primaries, but Obama appealed far more to moderate independents and so he gathered more steam than Edwards early on because he had a broader base of support.  Generally speaking, progressives did not show much support for Clinton due to the centrist triangulation policies of Bill Clinton during his administration.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 07:01:21 pm by louisev »
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2009, 05:53:18 pm »
At the far left of the political left are what are referred to as "progressives."  Progressive politics centers on reform of and change from traditional and conservative (historical models), and emphasizes a change to the old and worn out ideologies, including the traditional ideological stances of both conservatism and liberalism, and based upon the concept that the world is dynamic and needs dynamic changes in the political sphere to meet them.

I would be one of those.  In fact, there is an entire slice of political independents that are known as Independent Progressives, and that is where my politics are.  Unfortunately for us progressives, however, the Democrats have a tendency to want to keep the power structures of the government about where they are, and perpeturate their own place within them.  The progressives' choice for a presidential candidate in 2004 was Howard Dean, and they reluctantly backed Kerry once Dean fell out of the race.  Progressives were divided unequally between Edwards and Obama early in the 2008 primaries, but Obama appealed far more to moderate independents and so he gathered more steam than Edwards early on because he had a broader base of support.  Generally speaking, progressives did not show much support for Clinton due to the centrist triangulation policies of Bill Clinton during his administration.


The above description of your politics makes much more sense in understanding where you stand. Sounds like your not extremely liberal after and that was my point.

Brad

Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 07:00:26 pm »
The above description of your politics makes much more sense in understanding where you stand. Sounds like your not extremely liberal after and that was my point.

Brad

well there shouldn't be a lot of confusion about what I stand for since I listed in my original post just about every political position I support.  And I would stress that progressives, particularly "independent progressives" are considered the "extreme left wing."  We're the ones who don't get upset when you call us socialists, because there is a lot to be said for the aims of social democracy.  And we know Obama is not a socialist.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 07:32:23 pm »
I take Jeff's comment to mean that the social conservatives in the Republican party feel no hesitation at having government control/restrict/meddle with the rights of gay people and the rights of women to make their own medical decisions, along with their doctors of course. 

Some "social conservatives" do wish to stop same sex marriage from becoming a reality, so do some "liberals" like Obama.

Most social conservatives are less interested in protecting a woman's "right" to an abortion than they are protecting the "rights" of the unborn baby who can't speak for him or herself.

I am not a social conservative, and neither from what I can tell is Kaiser, but we are both conservative and right of center.

Conservatives come in all shades of the rainbow, some of the colors are bright and glowing, some are more muted pastels.

pnwDUDE

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2009, 07:35:36 pm »
well there shouldn't be a lot of confusion about what I stand for since I listed in my original post just about every political position I support.  And I would stress that progressives, particularly "independent progressives" are considered the "extreme left wing."  We're the ones who don't get upset when you call us socialists, because there is a lot to be said for the aims of social democracy.  And we know Obama is not a socialist.

According to progressiveindependent.com, you're not quite near the extreme left as they (and I) am referring too. After looking at their site, now I'm very curious why someone like you who is knocking on the Socialist door would/could vote for B. Obama, who is IMO close to the right of the Dem notch.




Brad

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2009, 07:39:59 pm »

Nobody is interested in what goes on in bedrooms, unless it is illegal with a minor or illegal due to criminal ssault. Nobody is interested in obgyn offices either, unless the law is being broken. To label an entire party and conservative-thinking people with a broadstroke that suggests they are akin to 'Hitlers' willing executioners' and would, based on the sentiment expressed, endorse raids on gay households and doctors' offices has a ring of hysteria and offensiveness to it.

The conservative positions on gay issues and abortion extend over the same range as those of anyone else--from very much opposed to very much in favor. Yes, conservatives generally fall on that scale in different locations than their so-called liberal colleagues, but both issues have a ton of gray space where most people land.

Do not forget Mr. Clinton on gay marriage and gays in the military... and Mr. Obama on gay "marriage". Most people have little issue with civil union rights that mirror a man/woman marriage. And don't forget more than just "social conservatives in the republican party" voted Yes on Prop 8.

What are the other issues? Adoption. Clerical. Instiutional (eg BSA). Adoption seems to be working out well. Clerical...Ah, the liberal view is that church and state should be completely separate, so this should not be an issue; Churches should do what they want. Institutional issues are also working just fine; the public sector institutions have no barring policies, and even private concerns tend not to; they all obey the law or get sued.

Abortion is the only procedure that apparently gives rise to the omnibus claim that conservatives want to control the relationship between women and their docs. One would think that such a claim could only come if abortions are 90% or more of all reasons to be in a obgyn office, but that is not the case. Is it?

again, the range of postions on abortion is broader than labeling conservatives as intrusive nut cases. Most people, left and right, are not in favor of late term abortions, which Roe v Wade allows...in fact up to the point of labor.

just as it is between the genders, there are a few more similarities than differences among the spectrum of people who lean left or right, and the labeling of half or more of the nation as private-life-intruders for some perverse control need is just plain hysteria.


there seems to have been a lot of broadbrush painting on this thread.

the position that conservative = social conservative = Republican is absurd.

the position that either party's platform is relevant beyond as paper liners for Parakeet cages is also absurd.

those who are self-identified as conservative have a spectrum of opinions on all the issues, and many conservatives do not affiliate with any party at all.

Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2009, 07:45:47 pm »
well thank you for asking, Brad.  I voted for Obama because he had a clear and focused agenda for a) ending the war in Iraq b) restoring progressive taxation and eliminating corporate welfare and giveaways to the rich c) restoring the rule of law and closing Gitmo d) instituting health care reform e) supporting the middle class and sensible domestic economic policy f) he had good advisement from the best economic team available led by Paul Volcker, the SUCCESSFUL former head of the Fed g) he is not a Washington pol and h) he's honest and intelligent.

Edwards was my second choice, and I am sure glad we dodged the bullet with that one.

And yes, I am tickled silly so far with how he has done.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2009, 10:18:11 pm »
Obama has the full support of the Communist party so I am not surprised you are happy, Louise.



Wow, that wasn't necessary.

 :-\

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2009, 10:40:38 pm »
Wow, that wasn't necessary.

 :-\

It sure wasn't. I guess not much has changed around here, has it?  :-\

Next she'll be claiming she has a list. ...  >:(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2009, 10:43:30 pm »
well thank you for asking, Brad.  I voted for Obama because he had a clear and focused agenda for a) ending the war in Iraq b) restoring progressive taxation and eliminating corporate welfare and giveaways to the rich c) restoring the rule of law and closing Gitmo d) instituting health care reform e) supporting the middle class and sensible domestic economic policy f) he had good advisement from the best economic team available led by Paul Volcker, the SUCCESSFUL former head of the Fed g) he is not a Washington pol and h) he's honest and intelligent.

Thanks, Louise, that pretty much covers why I voted for him, too. I'd only add, He's not afraid to show his intelligence.

And isn't it funny? Once upon a time Republicans could be Progressive (think, Teddy Roosevelt).
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

karen1129

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2009, 10:50:17 pm »
I dont' see that this would be 'insulting' to Louise...she self identified as a Socialist, and the Communists are left of socialists...so if Obama is doing enough to make them happy then it would follow that the socialists are happy.

dont' read stuff into my post and try to make it out to be more than it is.

Oh, I think I understand what you were saying.


Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2009, 10:56:38 pm »
Wow, that wasn't necessary.

 :-\

that's okay... in another thread I learned that there's still a Soviet Union so I'm not surprised that no distinction is being drawn between social democracy and Communism.  Finland and Sweden are social democracies.  China is a communist state.

and I self-identified as an independent progressive, not a socialist.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2009, 11:38:45 pm »
I dont' see that this would be 'insulting' to Louise...she self identified as a Socialist, and the Communists are left of socialists...so if Obama is doing enough to make them happy then it would follow that the socialists are happy.

dont' read stuff into my post and try to make it out to be more than it is.

So since the Communists are left of the socialists who are left of the liberals who are left of the Conservatives, if the Communists are happy then everybody must be happy?

Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2009, 11:54:02 pm »
Interesting graphic, note how they just stttttrrreeettttcccchhhhhhhh that bad boy out so the Democrats somehow fall in the "middle of the road" there. I guess when your standing out toward the fringe, the center looks far away indeed. The actual political  (but still mainstream)right must look like Antartica.

The wording alone is a bit of a tip off that theres a mite of prespective skewing going on,"New Empire Judeo-Christian Radical And The Lamb Opened the Seventh Seal Armageddon-Survivalists With Tinfoil Hats Etc." The opposition is always painted in broad brushstrokes with neon colors, but in fact, the outgoing Administration were garden-variety conservatives. This country wasnt even close to being a totalitarian state under GW Bush for all the hyperventiating. Plenty of room to his right. Plenty. Keep going, in fact, and you meet the extreme left, it hardly amtters at that point.


well, blame Brad for posting it, I don't know anything about the site he got it from.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline David In Indy

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2009, 01:27:13 am »
As the moderator of this forum I ask that everyone remain respectful towards one another and stick to the topic at hand. I have no problems whatsoever of locking this thread indefinately, reviewing all posts and culling out the offending ones while the rest of you cool your jets.

Gary created this thread hoping to start a friendly conversation- not as a means for some of you to take cheap pot shots at each other. Either get along with each other, or refrain from posting in here. Otherwise I will lock this thread without warning.

Thank You.

David

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Offline louisev

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2009, 01:28:53 am »
Thanks, Louise, that pretty much covers why I voted for him, too. I'd only add, He's not afraid to show his intelligence.

And isn't it funny? Once upon a time Republicans could be Progressive (think, Teddy Roosevelt).

actually there was a named "progressive" movement that was initiated that Roosevelt was part of, and its goals were governmental reform and the reduction of the dynamic of the two prevailing parties.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2009, 10:08:17 am »
actually there was a named "progressive" movement that was initiated that Roosevelt was part of, and its goals were governmental reform and the reduction of the dynamic of the two prevailing parties.

And Teddy was a "Trust Buster," too. Compare that to the current GOP's big-business *ss-k*ss*ng.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2009, 10:19:07 am »
Compare that to the current GOP's big-business *ss-k*ss*ng.

Both parties kiss corporate ass equally. Republicans are just open about it. If you look at election-year corporate spending trends, you will find that most of the Fortune500 give just about equal amounts of money to both parties.
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2009, 11:16:52 am »
This is a very abbreviated explanation:


I've identified as a liberal since the early 1960s, though I took a powder and became apolitical during the late 1960s-early 1970s when liberals were making royal assholes of themselves and poisoning the well.

There's a constant conflict in the West between individual freedom and opportunity on one hand and responsibility to the community on the other. However, I believe that the former needs to be guarded with particular care since the human psyche is all too quick to embrace restrictions and barriers in the interests of security or in response to perceived threats.  We have a Constitution that sets forth certain basic principles, specifically equal treatment under the law and IMO the threats to that are lopsidedly coming from the Right at present.

I believe that it's in the interests of the community -- national as well as local -- for all citizens to have access to basic education and health care, that all citizens should be free to marry the person of their choosing (assuming that person is a legally competent adult and wants the same thing) and that the government should make as few laws as possible about choices such as diet, drug use and acceptance of personal risks.  I believe in religious freedom; but also believe that the option of freedom from religion has to be part of the package or the phrase "religious freedom" means nothing.

Since 1980 in particular, the redistribution of wealth in this country has been from the bottom up, with a smaller and smaller percentage of people in control of a larger and larger percentage of wealth, and I believe that our elected government has a moral obligation to address that.  The current economic chaos can't be analyzed nor resolved by any reductionist approach; i.e., find one villain and slay him. However, I do think that in the past 29 years there has been a regression to the barnyard capitalism of the 19th century, and if a correction means more of what conservatives in general and hate radio screamers in particular call "socialism", so be it.

And if anybody wants to call me a "lefty" or "socialist", they needn't deceive themselves that this is going to bother me at all.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2009, 11:29:41 am »
I believe I'm with you here, Lynne. If you'll pardon the metaphor, to me abortion is like locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen.

If the "barn door" means a vagina, there's a horse in the barn that the owner didn't want there.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Conservative or Liberal?
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2009, 11:34:02 am »
If the "barn door" means a vagina, there's a horse in the barn that the owner didn't want there.

 ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.