Author Topic: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)  (Read 26671 times)

Offline louisev

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I may have been misleading in what I said.  I cited Phyllis Schlafly and Sarah Palin as female leaders in providing negative examples and maintaining the subjugation of women.  I don't blame men for what is an "equal opportunity" campaign to maintain traditional disproportionate sex roles.
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Offline serious crayons

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Looks like I'm the lone female dissenter here in the feminist question.

I am not a feminist because I do not believe in the rhetoric I have heard from feminist writers and intellectuals.  I believe in equal rights for women, but I do not believe this is a feminist stance but rather a humane one.  The risk that I see from the feminist intellectuals I have read is that there is a destructive component to feminism that sees men as inherently subjugating women, that society as a whole is geared toward subjugation and diminution.  I simply don't believe that.  I think that sex roles (I don't use the term "gender roles", gender to me is a grammatical term pressed into usage in recent times to mean sex) are taught, reinforced and advertised largely by women.  Men mostly benefit from them.   It is women who played the instrumental role in turning the clock back on the Equal Rights Amendment.  It is women, women like Phyllis Schlafly and most recently, Sarah Palin, who believe that there is some strength in maintaining outmoded "traditions" which involve restricting access to family planning information and birth control, limiting and outlawing abortion.  I do not believe that feminism addresses the fact that women, themselves, due to their own upbringing and their own determination to suppress progress and equal rights for women, particularly reproductive rights, are at the leading edge of the opposition to an equal society.  The real culprit in solving the issues of inequality, to me, lie not in feminism, but in a freedom from religious intolerance and imposing outmoded and extreme religious ideals on society, and on women in particular.

Thanks for posting, Louise. I was hoping you would, because I think I saw you mention somewhere else recently that you're not a feminist, and I was curious about your reasons.

To me, anybody who believes in equal rights for women is by definition a feminist. That's the entire meaning of the term, for me. Now there are plenty of ideas some feminists hold which I don't share, but that doesn't keep me from continuing to define myself (or the women I disagree with, for that matter), as feminists.

For example, in the early '90s, the writer Katie Roiphe published The Morning After: Sex, Fear and Feminism, which argued that feminists exaggerate the extent of female victimization. Roiphe is a feminist, but she favors a feminism that sees women as powerful and strong rather than women as victims. Of course the two aren't mutually exclusive, and I don't agree with everything Roiphe said, but I found her message refreshing and I tend to lean that way myself. The book was quite controversial at the time, though.

Another big area of contention within feminism is the conflict between feminists who see differences between men and women as inherent, vs. feminists who consider them mostly the result of cultural conditioning.

And yet another is the question of whether traditional women's interests and activities are undervalued because they actually hold less value (explaining why women were pushed into them), or does society just consider them less valuable because women do them? Marge_innavera and I got into this debate a few months ago with regard to beauty contests. Are beauty contests inherently more trivial than football?

Anyway, not to get too far off track, because I wanted to address the other part of Louise's post. Yes, I think it is definitely true that women are often the ones who teach and enforce traditional sex roles. Just as in cultures that practice female circumcision, it's usually mothers and grandmothers who encourage and perform it. Women, like men, grow up absorbing the biases and assumptions of their cultures, and many continue to support them even when those biases tend to benefit men. I think it's possible to work to change those biases without blaming them exclusively on men. When I use the term "the patriarchy," it's usually with a certain degree of irony.




Offline brokeplex

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Oh, good heavens! What a waste of time!

Women have had full equality under the law with men for decades in the US and the West in general - this is a been-there done-that thing.

Feminist activists need to concentrate their political actions in Muslim / Sharia dominated nations, where women are still second class citizens.  

But then maybe its just a whole lot easier and less risky to agitate in the US and the west, than concentrating on those areas that truly need to change their laws towards women.

So YES! I am a Saudi Feminist!

On Strike for Equal Rights in Saudi!

 

Offline Front-Ranger

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I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.

The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.

Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.

I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???
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Offline serious crayons

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Oh, good heavens! What a waste of time!

Thanks, brokeplex, for illustrating so perfectly the importance of a strong feminist movement and for providing a reminder that women's progress is far from complete here.

Quote
Women have had full equality under the law with men for decades in the US and the West in general

Once again, you are pretending to think that laws thoroughly control all behavior, attitudes, choices, human interaction and private activities. That is, I think you're pretending. You are pretending, right brokeplex? Surely you can't really believe it.

Quote
Feminist activists need to concentrate their political actions in Muslim / Sharia dominated nations, where women are still second class citizens.

How odd! You phrase this as if you don't realize this is already being done, by Western feminists as well as feminists who grew up and/or live in in those places.

Quote
But then maybe its just a whole lot easier and less risky to agitate in the US and the west, than concentrating on those areas that truly need to change their laws towards women.


You seem not to realize that being a feminist does not require one to "agitate" anywhere at all. Feminist and agitator are two different things, brokeplex. I'm a feminist, but frankly I'm not much of a political activist, let alone an "agitator."

You seem to see the word "feminist" as resembling "militant" or "activist" some other term that assumes an activity component. In fact, feminist is more like "Christian" or "agnostic" or "conservative" or "liberal" -- it's simply a description of one's beliefs.



Offline Brown Eyes

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I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.

The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.

Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.

I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???

Hi Lee!!  It's so great to see you here on this thread Bud! :)  I agree that there's still a lot of work to be done, and that progress in terms of women's rights is often one step forward and two steps back, in terms of pendulums swinging, trends reversing, and people taking things for granted.  Yes, as far as the younger generation of folks coming up, it really is important to not take things for granted and to remember that guarding hard-won rights and equality is as important as fighting for yet-to-be truly realized rights, such as equal pay.

How odd! You phrase this as if you don't realize this is already being done, by Western feminists as well as feminists who grew up and/or live in in those places.


And, K, I think this is an excellent point.  There are organized groups as well as individual women (and men) risking their lives in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan trying to protect women and fight for women's most basic rights.  The obstacles there are tremendous, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still challenges in very different cultures such as the U.S.  A concern for one doesn't at all negate a concern for the other.

And, K, is right that it doesn't always come down simply to laws.  In the U.S., there are cultural forces at work that are concerns for feminists too.  To cite two somewhat random issues that come to mind... the huge societal pressures surrounding body image (leading to eating disorders and major self-esteem issues)... and violence issues (domestic violence, date rape, etc.) that involve cultural change and major changes in societal attitudes to combat and try to resolve.  In regards to issues like domestic and sexual violence, yes, laws and the justice system are factors... but there are much more intricate social issues and attitudes at work in dealing with problems like that as well.



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Offline serious crayons

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And, K, is right that it doesn't always come down simply to laws.  In the U.S., there are cultural forces at work that are concerns for feminists too.  To cite two somewhat random issues that come to mind... the huge societal pressures surrounding body image (leading to eating disorders and major self-esteem issues)... and violence issues (domestic violence, date rape, etc.) that involve cultural change and major changes in societal attitudes to combat and try to resolve.  In regards to issues like domestic and sexual violence, yes, laws and the justice system are factors... but there are much more intricate social issues and attitudes at work in dealing with problems like that as well.

Good point, A. Another one: domestic work and caregiving. Women, even in Western cultures, do far far more of domestic labor and caring for children and old people. This type of work comes without pay or Social Security benefits, and limits women's ability to perform work that does pay. There are no laws addressing this issue.

Even issues that ARE addressed by law are often not resolved with laws. For instance, even it it's illegal to hire or promote on the basis of gender, it's often nearly impossible to discover and/or prove that it's happening.


Offline brokeplex

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I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.

The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.

Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.

I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???

Ranger, you must be exaggerating! I don't care what aspect of US society you wish to discuss, women are superachievers!

Politics - do I really have to remind everyone that the Speaker of the House and the Secretary of State are women

Communications - what is the ratio of women to men anchors, reporters, columnists? women are everywhere in the industry

Academia - women are much more than a few token Deans, Chancellors, University Presidents - look at the ratio of men to women in academia and a case can be made that MEN are being discriminated against.

see : http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys

The War Against Boys

This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex
by Christina Hoff Sommers


Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists

In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women

Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.

and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.

now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.


Offline delalluvia

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You all responded to Bill's post much better than I could have.  I agree with ya'll.  Discrimination against women is definitely not over and dead in this country.

Heck, all I have to do is look around me at work.  We have several 50+ year old women, they are obese grandmothers and not much to look at, but they are workaholics, know their jobs inside and out, are very people-oriented and when the promotions came - who got them?

The prettiest women in our area - 30 plus years younger than these women - and the men these older women trained.

Not sure what kind of discrimination was going on there, but there certainly was.

Quote
And yet another is the question of whether traditional women's interests and activities are undervalued because they actually hold less value (explaining why women were pushed into them), or does society just consider them less valuable because women do them? Marge_innavera and I got into this debate a few months ago with regard to beauty contests. Are beauty contests inherently more trivial than football?

IMO it's because women are doing it.  I can't recall where I read this, but in some area in Africa, no matter who was doing what, if the men were doing it, it was higher status. 

e.g. in one tribe, the women did all the making of pottery.  They got no status for it.  In another tribe, the men did all the making of pottery and they were held up as leaders of the tribe.  In another tribe, if women did the weaving, it was a low status drudge job.  If the men did it, it was an art form.  In tribes where men do the fieldwork, they are the farmers and breadwinners, in other tribes where the fieldwork is done primarily by women, it's a drudge job only fit for women, because men have the leisure to hold the important clan and political roles.

Sorta along the lines of women are cooks, men are chefs. 

Offline delalluvia

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Ranger, you must be exaggerating! I don't care what aspect of US society you wish to discuss, women are superachievers!

Politics - do I really have to remind everyone that the Speaker of the House and the Secretary of State are women

Communications - what is the ratio of women to men anchors, reporters, columnists? women are everywhere in the industry

Academia - women are much more than a few token Deans, Chancellors, University Presidents - look at the ratio of men to women in academia and a case can be made that MEN are being discriminated against.

see : http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys

The War Against Boys

This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex
by Christina Hoff Sommers


Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists

In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women

Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.

and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.

now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.



Bill just because we're not at the level of Islam, doesn't mean there is no discrimination worth fighting.  You're a gay man, do you think gay people in this country are just whining?  Equal rights is over and done!  Heck, there was a gay president.  There are gay men all over Hollywood and the arts.  Gay people can have civil unions and marriages.  They can be out in most all areas.  Now let's visit the Islamic world where you really have a case of brutal subjugation of gay people...