Crouching Sensibility Hidden Meaning

[Ray]

Did I miss something?  What a load of crap!  PUHLEeeease!  Thank Gawd Ang discovered cowboys!  Nice mountains.

[starboardlight]

  I can see how the non-Asian audience might go "hunh?" but I loved that movie. I grew up reading the stories and watching these kinds of films. The martial art sequences were just beautiful to watch.

*edit- spelling

[Front-Ranger]

Try it again when you're in a different mood Ray! It's a great movie. Maybe this will help: Jen is Ennis and the Mongolian guy is Jack. The comb is the shirts. Does that help??

[JennyC]

I can see how the non-Asian audience might go "hunh?" but I loved that movie. I grew up reading the stories and watching these kinds of films. The marshall art sequences were just beautiful to watch.

OMG, I love martial art stories, and watches many many martial art movies.  They have martial art stories in Thai, Nipith?  Or you read them in Chinese. 

EDIT: For spelling.  Thanks, Leslie!

[MaineWriter]

I loved this movie and I'm not Asian. I have to say, though, I don't remember any marshall arts sequences. Martial arts, maybe? 

[YaadPyar]

Hmmm - Chris and I were talking about this movie just yesterday, and he assured me I was completely strange (althought I don't think he was so kind in his assessment of me) for not liking it.  But I didn't.   Didn't dig the story, didn't dig the martial arts, didn't dig any of it.  Don't want to try again either. 

[JennyC]

I loved this movie and I'm not Asian. I have to say, though, I don't remember any marshall arts sequences. Martial arts, maybe? 

That's right, going back to edit my post. 

[Meryl]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Ray!  Loved it.  I'm a sucker for those balletic fight sequences with all the pretty colors and stuff.  Plus, being an Ang movie, it actually had some intelligence thrown in.  

[starboardlight]

OMG, I love martial art stories, and watches many many martial art movies.  They have martial art stories in Thai, Nipith?  Or you read them in Chinese. 

EDIT: For spelling.  Thanks, Leslie!

they were translated to Thai. as well as the movies dubbed to Thai. There are some Thai martial art, but nothing as spectacular as Chinese.

[starboardlight]

I loved this movie and I'm not Asian. I have to say, though, I don't remember any marshall arts sequences. Martial arts, maybe? 

he he. yeah, that's what I meant. typing too fast before coffee and all. 

[JennyC]

they were translated to Thai. as well as the movies dubbed to Thai. There are some Thai martial art, but nothing as spectacular as Chinese.

That's good to know that those martial art stories reached outside of just Chinese culture.  I understand how ridiculous it can sound to people at times.  But it’s a wonderful fantasy world that they created.  Many well known Chinese scholars said they read and enjoy those martial art stories.  The most famous martial art author is a well respected historian and scholar himself.  After all, many of the great martial art stories/novels are a combination of many elements including fantasy, historical events, human struggle between good and evil, love and lost, etc.  I read some of my favorite martial art novels as many times as I read “A Dream of the Red Chamber” (which is considered by many to be one of the greatest Chinese novels ever written).

We have to talk about the martial art stories that you like sometimes, Nipith. Maybe when we are all back from our vacation.

[Front-Ranger]

I hope I don't go on and on about this, but recently I mentioned that I thought Brokeback Mountain carried on the Wuxia tradition in Chinese arts in a new milieu, and I was just about drummed off the board. People were debating about it for days!! So, here is some information, and I would like to know what Nipith, Jenny, and all of you think about this. Wuxia=martial arts junk? or enduring archetype??

There is a long literary tradition in China called "Wuxia" that has to do with martial arts, chivalry, and historical epic storytelling. Wuxia novels and stories extend back to the early dynasties, and when the People's Revolution drove many Wuxia writers into exile the tradition was carried on in other places such as Taiwan, where Ang Lee was born. Wuxia stories have parallels to other cultures including the West. This is from Wikipedia:

Jiang Hu (江湖) (Gong Woo), (literally means "rivers and lakes") is the wuxia parallel universe - the alternative world of martial artists and pugilists, usually congregrating in sects, disciplines and schools of martial arts learnings. It has been described as a kind of "shared world" alternate universe, inhabited by wandering knights and princes, thieves and beggars, priests and healers, merchants and craftspeople. It corresponds roughly to America's Wild West period, or to the era of the Book of Judges in the Bible. The best wuxia writers draw a vivid picture of the intricate relationships of honor, loyalty, love and hatred between individuals and between communities within this milieu.

“The world these heroes created for themselves has since taken on a life of its own, has become a sort of "shared world" alternate universe in which, the mundane laws of physics are suspended, and men and women of spotless virtue roam the landscape searching for fresh challenges.[11] It is a world that is so well known to all Asian creators and consumers of wuxia stories that it even has a name: jiang hu.” From Heroic Grace: The Chinese Martial Arts Film by David Chute Editor's Introduction to the catalog of the landmark touring film series curated by Cheng-Sim Lim for the UCLA Film and Television Archive, 2003.

[JennyC]

Wuxia=martial arts junk? or enduring archetype??

First, Lee I should know that you know your Wuxia from your avatar.

Wuxia (武俠) =martial arts junk?  Of course not!  It’s classic.  Granted there are some junky Wuxia stories (just like any genre), but there are many that I would call classic Chinese literature.  As mentioned in my post, I have read some Wuxia stories as many times as “A Dream of the Red Chamber”.  That’s a statement that is not to be taken lightly.

Many scholar also consider some Wuxia stories to be classic.  I once read news that a chapter of Jin Yong (or Zha Liangyong  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinyong)’s story is to be adapted into high school Chinese textbook.  Given how controlled the content of the textbooks is, I will say it’s widely accepted as classic writing. Jin Yong is the most famous Wuxia writer and a national treasure considered by many in China.  I am proud to say that I have read all his books and some of them many times.

Jianghu is a fantasy world created by Wuxia writers.  It’s like J. R. R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth.  I think what some classic Wuxia novels to Chinese literature are like what Lord of the Rings Trilogy to the English literature.  It’s may not be to your taste, but no one can deny that it's enduring archetype. In the heart of the stories, it’s about the struggle of human nature, good versus evil, courage, loyalty, love, friendship, revenge, mercy, salvation, greedy, betray, justice, etc.

I could go on and on about Wuxia stories .  Some people know their favorite Wuxia stories just like how we know brokeback mountain story.  And I should add that some stories are longer than Lord of the Rings Trilogy.

[Front-Ranger]

Fascinating! We'll win Ray over yet!!

[starboardlight]

That's good to know that those martial art stories reached outside of just Chinese culture.  I understand how ridiculous it can sound to people at times.  But it’s a wonderful fantasy world that they created.  Many well known Chinese scholars said they read and enjoy those martial art stories.  The most famous martial art author is a well respected historian and scholar himself.  After all, many of the great martial art stories/novels are a combination of many elements including fantasy, historical events, human struggle between good and evil, love and lost, etc.  I read some of my favorite martial art novels as many times as I read “A Dream of the Red Chamber” (which is considered by many to be one of the greatest Chinese novels ever written).

We have to talk about the martial art stories that you like sometimes, Nipith. Maybe when we are all back from our vacation.

most of then created Thai titles that sometimes don't correspond to the chines titles. I read them as a child so I don't remember most of them anyway. I remember the stories of the Monkey King. I also really loved the stories about Kuan Yin. I remember a novel about a pauper with jade staff being really popular. I don't remember what the title was. The stories about the Great Judge Bao was also really huge in Thailand. We got lots of tv series from Hong Kong, so many of the stories that we got were through these.

[Front-Ranger]

I loved the Monkey King story too, and wrote a screenplay of it when I was in college. I fantacized about doing an animated version, but that was before PIXAR et al. Monkey King would be better than Lion King, hands down. I'm not familiar with the Kuan Yin story, I thought Kuan Yin was the boddisattva of compassion, who gave up nirvana to help other people reach it. Do I have my personages all mixed up??

[JennyC]

The Monkey King (a.k.a The Journey to the West (西游记)) has been considered one of the Four Great Classical Chinese Novels.  I actually never thought this one as a typical Wuxia novel, though it does have a lot of martial art elements in it.  There are animated versions of The Monkey King story done by Chinese and Japanese (I think).  Of course, they are no PIXAR quality.

As to the Kuan Yin story, I don't know which Wuxia novel may have Kuan Yin as the main character as Lee pointed out that "Kuan Yin was the boddisattva of compassion".  Kuan Yin appeared frequently in The Monkey King story though.

"Great Judge Bao" yeah, there are martial art TV series based on that.  And I have no idea on "a pauper with jade", guess that's where the translation really made a difference.

If you are seriously interested in Wuxia novel, you have to check out the works by Jinyong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinyong.  His novels are the classic among classic.  My personal favorites are "Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils", "The Smiling, Proud Wanderer", and "The Deer and the Cauldron" (based on wikipedia translation)

[starboardlight]

honestly, I would guess most of what I read were pulp novels. serials that people wrote more for money than for literary ambitions. Also as a child I read them just because they were fun and different. I really don't know a whole lot about wuxia genre, or what would qualify a novel as fitting into that genre. Like I said I read them long long ago as a child. I'd love to find English translations of the one you mentioned Jenny. I'll look them up.

The story about Kuan Yin, that I remember was about her life before ascending to become boddisattva. She was a beautiful woman except for the fact that there was a large birthmark that covered half of her face. The stories tells of her journey toward achieving compassion, through love and heartbreaks, war and peace, etc.

The pauper with a jade staff (again can't remember the title) was a story about a young orphan who was raised by a clan of beggars. They cultivated their own style of martial arts using canes, staves, and the tools of beggars. He eventually takes his martial art skills to the elite level, when he found a jade staff and a hidden manual. It was very popular in Thailand in the late 70's.

[isabelle]

Hi Ray! Yeah, when I asked you if you'd seen this film, I didn't want to influence your judgement so I didn't say what I thought of it, but that IS what I thought: "Did I miss something?". This must be a case of culture shock, but I didn't dig it either, and just couldn't help laughing at those characters flying about! Sorry JennyC and Nipith 

[nakymaton]

I'm not Asian, and I didn't know anything about wuxia... and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is one of my five favorite movies ever. I think it's just absolutely beautiful: the landscapes, the score, the choreography, the acting, the story. It was the first movie that I left feeling like I absolutely had to see it again.

And nobody directs introverted characters like Ang Lee does.

[Front-Ranger]

Welcome, Mel, into the Wuxia lovers. U know, I was thinking (I'm sounding like Alma Jr) that some of the best Wuxia-type stories today are Westerns. I'm thinking that one of the stories I would most like to see is the trilogy that begins with "All the Pretty Horses." In my mind, it is a Wuxia story. The movie missed the point, it was miscast. I think it should have starred...Hugh Jackman. Yes, an Aussie.

[JennyC]

Lee,

I can see where you are going with Wuxia and Western connection.  I see some similarities, the way of their lives, the values they shared, how they express their gratitude/loyalty and take their revenges.  The problem is I hardly watch any Westerns, or read any Western stories, so it’s hard for me to come up with some good Westerns that carry the Wuxia spirit.

[Front-Ranger]

"All the Pretty Horses" Might be a good place to start. It is the first book in a trilogy by Cormac McCarthy. He is the author who comes closest in my mind to Annie Proulx in her Wyoming stories. Read an excerpt here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0679744398/ref=sib_fs_top/104-5048653-7762315?ie=UTF8&p=S00C&checkSum=vQkVaeJqIFwNr8jBT9jZdOOvGmk%2Bww%2FdAbnvl4PvKQU%3D#reader-link
It's not exactly a Western, taking place in Texas and Mexico during about the same time period as BBM. Trouble is, the movie had some problems...starting with the casting of Matt Damon as the lead. I think it would have been 100% better with someone like Hugh Jackman. Whether this is a Wuxia novel/movie, some might find a topic of discussion. If only martial arts/warrior yarns are considered Wuxia, then no it's not. But if we define Wuxia as more the epic journey, the "war within" and the coming of age type of story, then yes it definitely is, and so is Brokeback Mountain.

[starboardlight]

Interestingly, wikipedia uses Luke Skywalker as an illustration of wuxia heroes. The original Star Wars trilogy did have a western heart.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

WARNING: Unintelligent question ahead. Beware.

How do you pronounce 'wuxia?' I'm sitting here at my computer thinking, 'Is it like 'woojia?' or 'woozia?''

I know nothing about this type of story (I'm not Asian either). By the way, I loved Crouching Tiger. I haven't seen it in a few years, sadly, but I immensely enjoyed it the first time around. The acting, cinematography, and score were all so good. When I first saw it though, directing was a concept that shot over my head (I was, I think, in 6th grade when I saw it the first time) and I'd really like to watch it again, not only cause I remember loving it but for Ang Lee as well. Are there similarly fascinating nuances in CTHD in comparison to the brilliant touches in Brokeback?

[JennyC]

WARNING: Unintelligent question ahead. Beware.

How do you pronounce 'wuxia?' I'm sitting here at my computer thinking, 'Is it like 'woojia?' or 'woozia?''

It can be hard to pronounce “X” for English speaker as there is no such sound in English.  You will be very close to pronounce it as “woo she-ah”.

Are there similarly fascinating nuances in CTHD in comparison to the brilliant touches in Brokeback?

Repressed feelings, the love between Master Li Mu Bai and Yu Shu Lien, the deep need and longing, passion and regret.

[starboardlight]

Repressed feelings, the love between Master Li Mu Bai and Yu Shu Lien, the deep need and longing, passion and regret.

and the theme of sublimating one's desire for the sake of social acceptance. As we see in Ennis as well as in the relationship between Mu Bai and Shu Lien

[JennyC]

and the theme of sublimating one's desire for the sake of social acceptance. As we see in Ennis as well as in the relationship between Mu Bai and Shu Lien

Very true... Nipith, you always find words to say things in a way that sounds perfect.

[Ray]

I have read all your comments with great interest and I now can say I still hated it.  'my bad?  Sorry my cultured crew, but expressionless actors swinging from pullies over a blue screen just doesn't do it for me, even if there is a gorgeous carving knife and a lovely ivory hair rake involved!  I still rate it equal with watching an electric drill entering my eye.

[MaineWriter]

I have read all your comments with great interest and I now can say I still hated it.  'my bad?  Sorry my cultured crew, but expressionless actors swinging from pullies over a blue screen just doesn't do it for me, even if there is a gorgeous carving knife and a lovely ivory hair rake involved!  I still rate it equal with watching an electric drill entering my eye.

Ray, this is why I love you. Siimple, direct, to the point. No mincing words, no dancing around the issue. LOL

Leslie

[starboardlight]

I have read all your comments with great interest and I now can say I still hated it.  'my bad?  Sorry my cultured crew, but expressionless actors swinging from pullies over a blue screen just doesn't do it for me, even if there is a gorgeous carving knife and a lovely ivory hair rake involved!  I still rate it equal with watching an electric drill entering my eye.

Fair enough. and I don't mean to suggest anyone is uncultured if they don't get this movie. It's just that growing up in an Asian household, I'm used to seeing emotions expressed differently. My dad is one of the most stoic man I know. His face hardly gives away any emotion, unless he's really happy or angry. I've learn to see the subtle signs. That's the society Asians live in. Keeping face is a strong underlying idea. It never occurred to me that the actors were "expressionless" because that's the world the characters lived in.

[JennyC]

I have read all your comments with great interest and I now can say I still hated it.  'my bad?  Sorry my cultured crew, but expressionless actors swinging from pullies over a blue screen just doesn't do it for me, even if there is a gorgeous carving knife and a lovely ivory hair rake involved!  I still rate it equal with watching an electric drill entering my eye.

Ray,

Yon don't get the whole movie or just the part that you posted the pic?  Frankly if there is any part of the movie that I don't quite like or get, is the part with Jiao Long's suicide.  I guess I know why she wanted to do that, but the way it was performed just doesn't do it for me.  Apart from that, I don't think the actors are expressionless most of the times. 

Welcome back, glad to see you around regardless .

[Front-Ranger]

Interesting that U brought up the knife and the hair comb, because they are the two shirts of this movie. I second the thought of Jenny, Ray. Great to have U back!! Now I can shush the voice of Renee Zellweger calling "Ray? Ray?" in my head (from Jerry Maguire). BTW, I saw Ride With the Devil last nite, another Ang Lee film. I wonder what U would think of that one. I liked it a lot.

[Front-Ranger]

Here's something more from the Web on the Wuxia/Western connection, mentioning Star Wars as you did earlier, Nipith:

Wuxia film style has also been appropriated by the West. In 1986, John Carpenter's film Big Trouble in Little China was inspired by the visuals of the genre. The Matrix trilogy has many elements of wuxia, although the heroes and the villains of The Matrix gain their supernatural powers from a different source. Similarly, when Star Wars was released in the late 1970s, many Chinese audiences viewed it as a western wuxia movie set in a futuristic and foreign world (especially the duel between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi with lightsabers). The Star Wars prequels showed even more of a western wuxia style.

[Front-Ranger]

I hope I don't go on and on about this, but recently I mentioned that I thought Brokeback Mountain carried on the Wuxia tradition in Chinese arts in a new milieu, and I was just about drummed off the board. People were debating about it for days!! So, here is some information, and I would like to know what Nipith, Jenny, and all of you think about this. Wuxia=martial arts junk? or enduring archetype??

There is a long literary tradition in China called "Wuxia" that has to do with martial arts, chivalry, and historical epic storytelling. Wuxia novels and stories extend back to the early dynasties, and when the People's Revolution drove many Wuxia writers into exile the tradition was carried on in other places such as Taiwan, where Ang Lee was born. Wuxia stories have parallels to other cultures including the West. This is from Wikipedia:

“The world these heroes created for themselves has since taken on a life of its own, has become a sort of "shared world" alternate universe in which, the mundane laws of physics are suspended, and men and women of spotless virtue roam the landscape searching for fresh challenges.[11] It is a world that is so well known to all Asian creators and consumers of wuxia stories that it even has a name: jiang hu.” From Heroic Grace: The Chinese Martial Arts Film by David Chute Editor's Introduction to the catalog of the landmark touring film series curated by Cheng-Sim Lim for the UCLA Film and Television Archive, 2003.

From the book "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Portrait of the Ang Lee Film" the author, David Bordwell, compares the wuxia films to Westerns:

“The wuxia pian, or film of martial chivalry, is rooted in a mythical China, but it has always reinvented itself for each age. Like the American Western, the genre has been reworked to keep in touch with audiences’ changing tastes and to take advantage of new filmmaking technology. Yet at the center it retains common themes and visceral appeals.”