Gay Detecting Radar

[Katie77]

I recently sent in a line to "The person below me" thread, asking, if people looked at men now and wondered if they are gay...and the answer refered to gay radar.....

I am straight, but I occassionally look at a guy, and think that he is gay, and most of the time I am right, although i have been wrong on a few occassions too....by the way, it is not a common pastime of mine, but I do do it....

I'm interested now, in this gay "radar", that many people seem to have, and would be interested in hearing from both gay and straight readers here, how their radar works, and what things they zero in on, to assume someone is gay.....or straight, whichever way they work.

I dont mean to offend anyone, just thought it might be a bit humourous, and also, I have told a few gay male friends who are in the closet, that people around them, probably all ready suspect they are gay, so I am interested to hear what others have to say on this.

[YaadPyar]

I seem to instinctively know.  Always did.  The first person I came out to never had told me she was a lesbian.  I just knew.  I later realized my coming out was very premature as I'm not myself gay, but I knew about her and her girlfriend, and everyone else I've met mostly, male and female.  Just a sense.  Don't know why...

But I don't much try to figure it out.  Just happens.  Just some sense.  But I don't get the same sense from folks who are just playing/trying it out.  Not very helpful/intersting, I guess.

[SFEnnisSF]

After having lived in The Castro, where everybody is gay, my radar don't work no more.  There's a certain 'look' that gay men have in SF, that tells them apart from the straight men living in SF.  The straight men who have 'the look' just simply do not live in SF.  I don't know why.  So now that I live outside of SF, I see many men with 'the look', and they're all straight.  Like I said, my radar don't work no more....  LOL. 

[Daniel]

I recently sent in a line to "The person below me" thread, asking, if people looked at men now and wondered if they are gay...and the answer refered to gay radar.....

I am straight, but I occassionally look at a guy, and think that he is gay, and most of the time I am right, although i have been wrong on a few occassions too....by the way, it is not a common pastime of mine, but I do do it....

I'm interested now, in this gay "radar", that many people seem to have, and would be interested in hearing from both gay and straight readers here, how their radar works, and what things they zero in on, to assume someone is gay.....or straight, whichever way they work.

I dont mean to offend anyone, just thought it might be a bit humourous, and also, I have told a few gay male friends who are in the closet, that people around them, probably all ready suspect they are gay, so I am interested to hear what others have to say on this.

I am also kind of interested in this phenomenon from an anthropological perspective...

Did you know that in Ireland there is a similar phenomenon where people can tell if a person is catholic or protestant...

[vkm91941]

I've always thought it was just a matter of being observant but as time goes on I do think there is an element of intuition involved as well.  Like Celeste, I have always been able to tell, even as a child.  At the age of 6, I innocently outted my 25 year old cousin blurting out to all an sundry at a large family gathering to: " leave Paul alone he doesn't like girls" when my Aunts were badgering him about when was he going to get married.

My gay friends tell me my gaydar is better than theirs.  WHY?  Who knows. 

[starboardlight]

I'm with Celeste. My gaydar is all instinct. I can't always tell what it is I'm picking up on. Sometimes it's the eye contact that's held a little too long. Sometimes it's just the energy that people give off. It's hard to explain.

[Giancarlo]

My gaydar is certainly instinctive. I know a gay guy here when I see one... though I usually am more familiar with flamey and outgoing type of gay guys, being one myself. The "straight acting" ones are hard to recognize.

[Katie77]

Interesting reading about your gay-radar (gaydar....like that).....anyway....from a straight females point of view, here are the things i look for or notice....

Usualy the guy is nice looking, and if he hasnt got a female hanging off him, i think, he is either shy or he is gay.

Usually, they dress very nice, and look after themselves...body, hair, skin, clothes.

Usually, they are great in conversation with women.

Always, they are polite and respectful to women.

Sometimes, they talk about romantic songs, or something men are embarrassed to talk about.They usually are pretty open with their emotions.

Usually, they have a pretty good job.

Usually, they live at home, or rent with a "mate".

Usually they love their mum, and arent embarrassed to admit that.

Usually, they like going to the movies.

Usually they dont join in much with "boy talk" with straight men.

Usually they love animals, and are very caring.

..............and last of all......Always, if they walk down the street holding hands with another bloke....i KNOW they are gay........

How have I done with describing the gay guys here.....am I close......

[Lynne]

This is a really interesting question.  As Giancarlo says, it's easy enough for me to recognize flamboyant personalities who actually want others to know.  But for people who are more subtle, I have a really difficult time.  I think my gaydar may be slightly better with women than men, but in general, I'm wrong as often as I'm right, so I may as well flip a coin or just ask if I feel a compelling need to know.

On the subject of 'just asking', btw...I had a very cool experience last night.  I was out with some friends after work and the crowd had dwindled to two of us.  I've known B. socially for 5+ years and usually see him 2-3 times per week.  As is par for my course, I went onto my BBM/BetterMost forum tangent, my fave topic of conversation and mentioned this thread.  I realized that after all this time, I really didn't 'know' B.'s orientation because it had never come up.  If forced to guess, I would have said 'gay', really just because of the lack of our ever talking about relationships.  We most frequently talk about our parents because he is also taking care of a parent.  So I asked directly.  (Disclaimer:  I prefaced it with saying that if he felt it was none of my business, feel free to tell me so, I would not be offended - no harm/no foul, etc...)

B. told me he is bi and was absolutely overjoyed that I had asked!  He was so happy about it, I know he hugged me 10 times before it was done.  Then he proceeded to share with me about a really good friend of his and his crush !  So there's just one more example in my world of BBM helping to facilitate communication and build better, more honest relationships.

-Lynne

[starboardlight]

boy! lynn, the amount of relief he must have felt to be able to open up. and believe me it creates a deep level of intimacy to share that part of you. you can clearly tell by the hugs and the flow of conversation afterward that he finally felt like the two of you just overcame a barrier together. yet, just asking works. of course, it doesn't work with strangers.

and yes, like Giancarlo, detecting flamboyant guys is easy, but having grown up in the suburbs, I seem to have a knack for detecting closeted married men at Target, the gym, or the supermarkets. With these guys though, it's gotta be rough. They keep themselves so shut off but their eyes will wander at the wrong time, and I seem to catch them at those times.

[j.U.d.E.]

I seem to have a knack for detecting closeted married men at Target, the gym, or the supermarkets. With these guys though, it's gotta be rough. They keep themselves so shut off but their eyes will wander at the wrong time, and I seem to catch them at those times.

That's actually quite cute, the way you discribe it! 

I would say I have an above average gaydar, but I have also been wrong. Of course, I cannot always 'find out', when I 'suspect', because I won't be as bold as Lynne  (way to go, Lynne!) everytime I think someone could be gay. I think it's mostly the eyes and a certain 'way of being'.. hard to describe.

Back at Uni there was this one friend where I thought he might be gay. When we came back from an exchange year abroad another friend told me that this friend had told her he was gay. I just said - yes, what else is new..  I think the friend who told me, was a bit surprised.. 

A couple of years ago I had a friend from the UK visiting me in Brussels and she brought her husband too. We met in the city centre and he 'pinged!!' totally! I showed them around the city a bit and brought them to our 'gay quarter' of Brussels and my friend told me her husband does like both.. 

Really!? 

~ j U d E

[YaadPyar]

Interesting reading about your gay-radar (gaydar....like that).....anyway....from a straight females point of view, here are the things i look for or notice....

Katie -

I know too many straight men who fit in the categories you describe to think those cues mean 'gay'.  And too many gay men who don't.  And lesbians who don't fit into any of that.

And I'm wondering also here - I have always hated the word lesbian.  I think it sounds so ugly.  There's not a different term for being straight depending on gender.  Am wondering if it makes sense to just use the word gay for men & women.  Although I so like the term queer myself, but don't know why...

And, as Nipith said, it's always tricky when your own gay-dar tells you something about a person who can't acknowledge themselves who they are....

[Lynne]

yet, just asking works. of course, it doesn't work with strangers.

Lest you think I have NO tact whatsoever, if I don't know someone well enough to ask, I figure it's not really my business

[YaadPyar]

Lest you think I have NO tact whatsoever, if I don't know someone well enough to ask, I figure it's not really my business

Y'know Lynne - I find that folks, when presented with someone who is genuinely interested, accepting and non-judgemental, are only too happy to share what everyone assumes should be a secret.

 

[starboardlight]

Lest you think I have NO tact whatsoever, if I don't know someone well enough to ask, I figure it's not really my business

no of course. for the most part, stranger's sexuality is nobody's business but theirs, but there are exceptions. for me when I meet someone for the first time, and I'm thinking he's cute, should I ask for his phone number, it then become necessary to figure out his sexuality before I proceed. Asking point blank just won't do. That's where gaydar come in handy. I guess that's where gaydar is more than looking at someone's physical appearance. It takes some flirting to determine chemistry. It also takes some reading of body language. Does he get uncomfortable if I hold eye contact a bit longer? Does he move back if I stand a little closer than the usual distance? It's very subtle and requires me to be very sensitive to my own instincts. How does one describe how long is a bit longer when holding eye contact?

[starboardlight]

Although I so like the term queer myself, but don't know why...

yep, I love the term "queer" too. I prefer it to gay, myself. it can be confrontational, but i like the "I don't give a f***" attitude to it. I also like the vagueness of it, in that it includes men and women, as well as those in between or beyond genders. it doesn't peg you down to being gay, or bi, but leaves it open for exploration and flexibility.

[Lynne]

Y'know Lynne - I find that folks, when presented with someone who is genuinely interested, accepting and non-judgemental, are only too happy to share what everyone assumes should be a secret.

I completely agree, Celeste...the climate of secrecy around sexuality is not necessarily healthy, and that knowing you're asking out of caring and without judgment goes a long way toward opening communication.  But there are still some personal boundaries that should be respected.  I guess there's a balancing act that requires sensitivity.  It's an interesting question for a lot of topics.  I know some women (me included) who are forever getting the 'you don't have children?' question, like there's something wrong with you if you don't procreate.  There can be many reasons for this, some of them quite painful.  The answer people get from me varies based on the spirit of the question.

...there are exceptions. for me when I meet someone for the first time, and I'm thinking he's cute, should I ask for his phone number, it then become necessary to figure out his sexuality before I proceed. Asking point blank just won't do. That's where gaydar come in handy. I guess that's where gaydar is more than looking at someone's physical appearance. It takes some flirting to determine chemistry. It also takes some reading of body language. Does he get uncomfortable if I hold eye contact a bit longer? Does he move back if I stand a little closer than the usual distance? It's very subtle and requires me to be very sensitive to my own instincts. How does one describe how long is a bit longer when holding eye contact?

Starbie - that's really the topic here - thanks for getting me back on track here.  So I'll just reiterate.  Male or female, I really don't seem to have the sensitivity to pick up on those subtleties myself.  It's like negotiating a minefield or something.  Overt flirting is about the only thing I can recognize with any degree of certainty.  Maybe it takes practice if you're not born with it?

-Lynne

[Jeff Wrangler]

yep, I love the term "queer" too. I prefer it to gay, myself. it can be confrontational, but i like the "I don't give a f***" attitude to it. I also like the vagueness of it, in that it includes men and women, as well as those in between or beyond genders. it doesn't peg you down to being gay, or bi, but leaves it open for exploration and flexibility.

Not I. Maybe it's an age or generational thing, but for me, queer has never lost its connotation of being "not right in the head"--and not in a good way!

[moremojo]

I am a gay man, and I have absolutely terrible "gaydar"; I have learned to never assume anything until the person themselves makes a statement regarding their sexual identity. I have met many men with feminine characteristics, completely non-macho and sensitive, who have turned out to be straight. Thing is, most of the gay men I know (and I include myself here) bear qualities that our culture usually deems to be feminine--thus my assumption (so often now proven wrong) that a man exhibiting such traits is likely to be gay.

Scott

[Katie77]

I would feel like i was offending a gay person if i said he was "queer"....I dont know where the word gay came from, but at least its a pleasant happy word....and i refer to both men and women as "gay"..

I agree that ones sexuality is private, and I would never ask anyone if he/she was gay, unless i was sure it wouldnt offend them, it would have to be at the right time in the right place....but from what I would guess, if someone was gay, and I asked them if they were, the question would come after some previous conversation, and that person would realize that I was only being inquisitive, and not negative towards them.

As it has shown here in the threads and posts, gay men and women are very comfortable talking about their sexuality, having a sense of humour about it, and arent secretative about it, and I'm sure if they thought they would get the same responses to someone in conversation, they would only be too pleased to have been asked about it.

It is probably a bit difficult to just come out and say "i am gay, what do you think about that?"....maybe if more people asked, and then continued on asking a few more questions, the mystery of gaynesss to us straight people might not be there....when anything is secretative, or hidden away, it is always going to attract irresponsible rumours, and inuendos, and people's ill informed views on the subject.....knowing for sure, just how it is, might make people realize that gay people are no different to straight people......and if its ok for a straight guy to talk about his/her partner with affection, then it should be no different for a gay guy/girl to talk about their partner or their life.

Take away the silence and the secrets and I'm sure gayness will become matter of fact, not some deep dark secret mysterious way of life.

[BB Stacker]

I would feel like i was offending a gay person if i said he was "queer"....I dont know where the word gay came from, but at least its a pleasant happy word....and i refer to both men and women as "gay"..

I agree that ones sexuality is private, and I would never ask anyone if he/she was gay, unless i was sure it wouldnt offend them, it would have to be at the right time in the right place....but from what I would guess, if someone was gay, and I asked them if they were, the question would come after some previous conversation, and that person would realize that I was only being inquisitive, and not negative towards them.

As it has shown here in the threads and posts, gay men and women are very comfortable talking about their sexuality, having a sense of humour about it, and arent secretative about it, and I'm sure if they thought they would get the same responses to someone in conversation, they would only be too pleased to have been asked about it.

It is probably a bit difficult to just come out and say "i am gay, what do you think about that?"....maybe if more people asked, and then continued on asking a few more questions, the mystery of gaynesss to us straight people might not be there....when anything is secretative, or hidden away, it is always going to attract irresponsible rumours, and inuendos, and people's ill informed views on the subject.....knowing for sure, just how it is, might make people realize that gay people are no different to straight people......and if its ok for a straight guy to talk about his/her partner with affection, then it should be no different for a gay guy/girl to talk about their partner or their life.

Take away the silence and the secrets and I'm sure gayness will become matter of fact, not some deep dark secret mysterious way of life.

Applause. You took the words right outta my mouth.

[ednbarby]

Katie -

I know too many straight men who fit in the categories you describe to think those cues mean 'gay'.  And too many gay men who don't.  And lesbians who don't fit into any of that.

And I'm wondering also here - I have always hated the word lesbian.  I think it sounds so ugly.  There's not a different term for being straight depending on gender.  Am wondering if it makes sense to just use the word gay for men & women.  Although I so like the term queer myself, but don't know why...

And, as Nipith said, it's always tricky when your own gay-dar tells you something about a person who can't acknowledge themselves who they are....

I agree, Celeste - I know several straight guys who don't fit neatly into the straight stereotype and several gay guys who don't fit neatly into the gay one.  I guess I don't look at guys and wonder either way - I just look at guys.  I figure I'm not in the running any which way because a) I'm married, b) I'm 41 and most of the ones I'm looking at lately... aren't, c) I have a young child, d) I'm not necessarily anything they'd find attractive even if none of the above applied.

I know this isn't exactly the subject of this thread, and apologies for steering it away from that slightly for a minute, but I don't get straight women who are actually put off when they find out an attractive coworker or acquaintance is gay.  I feel like saying, "Why is it a problem?  Did you think you had a shot?"  I think a lot of women, and not just homophobic ones, sort of inject themselves into cute guy's sex lives.  Maybe that's just natural and I'm the one who's out there, but I just like to look at them in a purely aesthetic way.  Yes, making out with them would be nice, but the fact that they're gay doesn't take away from my enjoyment of their beauty like it seems to in a way for a lot of women.

So if I have gaydar, I don't use it, I guess, because it just doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

And I agree with you again, Celeste - I don't like the word lesbian either.  But then I don't like the words "actress" and "songstress" and the like, either.  Like Maya Angelou said, if you're gonna be the thing, be the thing, regardless of gender.  If you act, you're an actor.  If you write songs, you're a songwriter.  If you're gay, you're gay.  Period.  And then there's just the sound of the word - like it's some sort of alien-like condition - that gets under my skin, too.

[Katie77]

I know this isn't exactly the subject of this thread, and apologies for steering it away from that slightly for a minute, but I don't get straight women who are actually put off when they find out an attractive coworker or acquaintance is gay.  I feel like saying, "Why is it a problem?  Did you think you had a shot?"  I think a lot of women, and not just homophobic ones, sort of inject themselves into cute guy's sex lives.  Maybe that's just natural and I'm the one who's out there, but I just like to look at them in a purely aesthetic way.  Yes, making out with them would be nice, but the fact that they're gay doesn't take away from my enjoyment of their beauty like it seems to in a way for a lot of women.

There is something about your thread, that rubs me the wrong way, and I had to check to see if you are male or female, to see which way, and why,  it is rubbing me that way....First I thought it was a male response, someone who was just "anti-female" or something, then on looking again , I see you and me are the same gender and  both married, so was wondering about your "slur" on straight women, and their reaction to gay attractive co-workers and friends....

Unless someone is a simple minded homophobic, I am sure, straight women, arent "put off" by it, or think there is a "problem" with it,or event think they "have a shot".... that is my reaction anyway,  ....If they like that person, they are merely interested in their life, no hidden agendas....

I find people of all persuations interesting, and I have always felt comfortable talking to gay people, and because I am comfortable, it makes that person comfortable too...some women feel safer taking to gay guys, maybe gay guys feel safer talking to women...I think (no, I know), that women accept gay guys quite readily, withought feeling any adversity to it.

Just going back to what I originally said, that your post "rubbed me the wrong way",I think you are underestimating the openess and trust that gay guys seem to give to straight women,and the role that a lot straight women play in their lives,  and you are selling us short, by insinuating that we have hidden agendas.

[Lynne]

I know this isn't exactly the subject of this thread, and apologies for steering it away from that slightly for a minute, but I don't get straight women who are actually put off when they find out an attractive coworker or acquaintance is gay.  I feel like saying, "Why is it a problem?  Did you think you had a shot?"
...
Like Maya Angelou said, if you're gonna be the thing, be the thing, regardless of gender.

Katie,

I think that we may just have a problem of interpretation here.  The females that Barb is speaking of (in my own interpretation) are the ones who, upon finding out an attractive man is gay, react with 'Oh, that's too bad.'  The subtext, of course being that either 'All the good men are taken/gay' implying that otherwise 'they would have had a shot.'  Again, that is only my own reading.  I don't think it's necessarily homophobia as much as it is sexually objectifying males as potential partners without regard to getting to know them as people first, a subject in which most women are well-versed. 

Barb - if I've completely misconstrued your intent, please let us all know.

All the best,
Lynne

BTW...I'm a big fan of Maya Angelou

[Katie77]

Lynne, I can see what you are saying, and your interpretation may be right...and oh yes, I have met women too, who think and say what you have said..."oh thats too bad".....and I have heard of women too, who maybe think they have enough sex appeal that they can "change" a gay guy.......sheer ignorance.....

Never for one minute do I claim that all women are understanding, tactful, little darlings, there are some bloody witches out there.....I guess I was sticking up for the straight women, like me, and the others on this board.

[starboardlight]

I remember a scene in Victor Victoria, in which Robert Preston plays an openly gay man (quite progressive for 1982). A young woman flirting with him suddenly figures out, says, "Oh what a waste!" His response was "I assure you, nothing is wasted." I loved that response.

[ednbarby]

Katie,

I think that we may just have a problem of interpretation here.  The females that Barb is speaking of (in my own interpretation) are the ones who, upon finding out an attractive man is gay, react with 'Oh, that's too bad.'  The subtext, of course being that either 'All the good men are taken/gay' implying that otherwise 'they would have had a shot.'  Again, that is only my own reading.  I don't think it's necessarily homophobia as much as it is sexually objectifying males as potential partners without regard to getting to know them as people first, a subject in which most women are well-versed. 

Barb - if I've completely misconstrued your intent, please let us all know.

All the best,
Lynne

BTW...I'm a big fan of Maya Angelou

Thank you, Lynne.  That is exactly what I meant.  We are indeed soul sisters.  Sexually objectifying males as potential partners - that's precisely it.  And really, I guess, why not?  That's what straight men do to us, isn't it?  I've just never done it myself, as I think the rest of us here probably have not.  In my case, not because I think I'm better than those other straight women, but honestly, because I think I'm a little weird.  Or perhaps I should give myself some credit and say "unusual"?

Sorry if what I said offended you, Katie.  I understand how that happens - I've been rubbed the wrong way by things I've read here and elsewhere, too, only to find that the person didn't mean it the way it sounded.  Many apologies - I should have been more clear.

[silkncense]

Sexually objectifying males as potential partners - that's precisely it.  And really, I guess, why not?  That's what straight men do to us, isn't it?  I've just never done it myself, as I think the rest of us here probably have not.

Uhhh, another disagreement Barb!  I definitely sexually objectify Jake Gyllenhaal & will continue to do so.   

Nipith - 

"Oh what a waste!" His response was "I assure you, nothing is wasted." I loved that response.

Absolutely.  A great response.

[Lynne]

...and I have heard of women too, who maybe think they have enough sex appeal that they can "change" a gay guy.......sheer ignorance.....
...I guess I was sticking up for the straight women, like me, and the others on this board.

LOL Katie @ the 'sheer ignorance'.  I know if I haven't managed to teach a man to put a toilet seat down or rinse toothpaste globs and razor stubble out of the sink, for instance, then changing his sexual orientation is so far outside the realm of possibility to be absurd.  And good for you on the 'sticking up'.  There are few enough progressive thinkers in my own real world that it's a *must-do* at every opportunity.

I remember a scene in Victor Victoria, in which Robert Preston plays an openly gay man (quite progressive for 1982). A young woman flirting with him suddenly figures out, says, "Oh what a waste!" His response was "I assure you, nothing is wasted." I loved that response.

Love it!!! Now I've got to put another movie in my queue!!!  Thanks, Nipith!!

Uhhh, another disagreement Barb!  I definitely sexually objectify Jake Gyllenhaal & will continue to do so.  

Now, see that's ENTIRELY different - I rationalize that as complete fantasy, myself  .  But I daresay that if Jake were an awful actor or dumb as a rock or came across as a total jerk, we wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with him sexually.

[ednbarby]

Now, see that's ENTIRELY different - I rationalize that as complete fantasy, myself  .  But I daresay that if Jake were an awful actor or dumb as a rock or came across as a total jerk, we wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with him sexually.

BINGO!  There are plenty of (almost) equally physically attractive actors out there who meet one or more of those other criteria and as such don't do a thing for me.  He does everything for me because he's the entire package, the real deal, the whole nine yards...  He's just got it goin' ON.  All of it.  All the time.  Did it just get hot in here, or is that just him? 

[silkncense]

Barb & Lynne -

Quote from: Lynne on Today at 11:49:27 am
Now, see that's ENTIRELY different - I rationalize that as complete fantasy, myself  .  But I daresay that if Jake were an awful actor or dumb as a rock or came across as a total jerk, we wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with him sexually.

BINGO!  There are plenty of (almost) equally physically attractive actors out there who meet one or more of those other criteria and as such don't do a thing for me.  He does everything for me because he's the entire package, the real deal, the whole nine yards...  He's just got it goin' ON.  All of it.  All the time.  Did it just get hot in here, or is that just him?   

So, I won't be seeing either of you over on the "Hot Cowboy" thread?  Y'all just don't know what you're missing...

But, in all seriousness, I think if someone is attracted to someone else, either over time or initially, they do fantasize that they have a shot even if in all reality it is ridiculous.  So if a straight (male or female) was attracted to someone gay or vice versa, they would generally, without conscious consideration, be disappointed to find out that person is not available to them. 

And, I think you will find it does occur vice versa. 

Sorry to continue travelling down this distant OT road.  AND, I agree that Jake appears to be the whole package - hope that's not just a fantasy.

[ekeby]

I think maybe the original question should have been "are wives looking at their husbands differently?" and wondering if they maybe have had hidden bbm relationships. Especially the ones that go hunting and fishing!

Re gaydar: As I get older, I find it works less and less well. Especially with young people. People under 30, forget it. Unless they have an OGT (obviously gay trait)--I have no clue.

[ednbarby]

Barb & Lynne -

So, I won't be seeing either of you over on the "Hot Cowboy" thread?  Y'all just don't know what you're missing...

But, in all seriousness, I think if someone is attracted to someone else, either over time or initially, they do fantasize that they have a shot even if in all reality it is ridiculous.  So if a straight (male or female) was attracted to someone gay or vice versa, they would generally, without conscious consideration, be disappointed to find out that person is not available to them. 

And, I think you will find it does occur vice versa. 

Sorry to continue travelling down this distant OT road.  AND, I agree that Jake appears to be the whole package - hope that's not just a fantasy.

OK, so it's true - I am just weird.    And I don't think it's just a fantasy.

[YaadPyar]

OK, so it's true - I am just weird. 

OMG Barb - why be normal...we've got plenty of that already!  Can't imagine that's worth aspiring to.

 

[ednbarby]

OMG Barb - why be normal...we've got plenty of that already!  Can't imagine that's worth aspiring to.

 

Don't worry - it's not that I mind or anything.  In fact I'm rather proud of it. 

[silkncense]

And I don't think it's just a fantasy.

I don't think so either, but then I've been fooled before (well, maybe I just fooled myself, really  )

[ednbarby]

I don't think so either, but then I've been fooled before (well, maybe I just fooled myself, really  )

As have I.  But look at it this way - now we're both too jaded to not see the forest for the trees.

[j.U.d.E.]

OMG Barb - why be normal...we've got plenty of that already!  Can't imagine that's worth aspiring to.

Don't worry - it's not that I mind or anything.  In fact I'm rather proud of it. 

Guys! Or should I say girls! You make me laugh!

I'm with you on this - why be 'normal'? Boooring! I've always liked and been attracted to the crooked, the weird, the crazy, the underdog! Fascinating.

Re exoressuib - I don't really like the word 'queer' either. Though with the shows like 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' etc, it does make that word a little more 'acceptable', if I may say.

~ j U d E

[LauraGigs]

AND, I agree that Jake appears to be the whole package - hope that's not just a fantasy.

Several folks have mentioned Jake being the "Whole Package", but not Heath.  Why?  Is Heath a jerk or a player or something in real life?  What's the scoop?

[Katie77]

Several folks have mentioned Jake being the "Whole Package", but not Heath.  Why?  Is Heath a jerk or a player or something in real life?  What's the scoop?

I think firstly the fact that Heath is with Michelle, and seems to have settled into family bliss, maybe makes him less attractive, or should I say less "available".....and lets face it, he does dress a bit weird sometimes.....

Now Jake.....pure sex appeal, no matter what he is wearing or is'nt wearing...mixes with the fun crowd, always smiling, seems very adventurous and open about himself.

[2robots4u]

I find the word "queer" to be a personal insult to all gay people because of it's history in gay culture.  Both "queer" and "fag" go way back and were used to degrade gays, much as the "N" word is used against people of color.  I prefer "gay" because it is non-gender descriptive, and I've even know females who prefer it over "lesbian".  However, in today's society, where homosexuals are broken down into so many different categories, i.e., gay, lesbian, transgender, transsexual, bi-sexual, cross-dresser, and a-sexual, one word isn't going to work for all of us.  Diversity defines the inner person, so calling a cross-dresser "gay" is probably not the right choice...most cross-dressers are not gay.  So I advocate the use of "homosexual" for males AND females who really are, and the rest by the name that they are known as.  Afterall, I do not believe the term "cross-dresser" is derrogatory, and it adequately defines that individual, as does the rest of the list.

RE: Gaydar...I have, I use it, and so far it has been most accurate.  I suspected Joe Namath long before he became a topic of concern, and Billie Jean King, Martina, and most recently Cheryl Swoops.  There are many other I suspect, both famous and infamous.  Notice these people are over 40, and as mentioned above, it's the under 30 crowd who is difficult to read.  But, I also believe gaydar is just there...you have it or not, and you can't explain why you know.  You just do....Dpoug

[Front-Ranger]

I don't know the answer for sure, lauragigs, but you'll notice over on the Chez Tremblay forum that "Jake, Jake, Jake" has about 120 pages whereas "Heath, Heath, Heath" has somewhere in the 70s. Looks like you Heathens need to get busier!!

[ednbarby]

I don't know the answer for sure, lauragigs, but you'll notice over on the Chez Tremblay forum that "Jake, Jake, Jake" has about 120 pages whereas "Heath, Heath, Heath" has somewhere in the 70s. Looks like you Heathens need to get busier!!

Like Katie said, I think it's a matter of (whether real or imagined ) availability.  Were Heath apparently single, we'd be talking a lot more about what kind of package he is (and has).

 

And just for the record, I think Heath is a lovely person.  Seems like a good old-fashioned nice guy, but at the same time is very complex.  He is just not my "type" coloring-wise - I've always gone for the darker-haired boys and men; the blonds remind me too much of myself and my brothers, I think.

[Front-Ranger]

About the word "fag." Most of these types of words had the opposite connotation in ancient times as they do now. I was vacationing in Switzerland around Easter one time and I saw people trimming the trees and arranging bundles of sticks and twigs neatly beside the road. I asked them what they were doing and they said, "gathering faggots." It is a tradition in those parts to trim the trees in the spring. But, even earlier, nature-worshipping groups such as the Druids prepared these faggots and carried them in rituals celebrating the seasons. Then, when Christians and other patriarchial religions came to power, they defiled the actions and words of the earlier religions, and faggot became a term of derision. Another example of this is the word witch, which used to mean a wise woman, as did the word hag. Look behind most words like this and you will find an interesting story of political and religious upheaval.

[Katie77]

I dont know if you do over there, but we actually call a cigarette a "fag"......

I'ts quite common for someone to say "I'm going outside for a fag, or I need to buy a packet of fags.

[Kelda]

I dont know if you do over there, but we actually call a cigarette a "fag"......

I'ts quite common for someone to say "I'm going outside for a fag, or I need to buy a packet of fags.

Yup the UK too.