trying to make sense of Jack

[ednbarby]

I feel empathy for both Jack & Ennis. However, I have a violent physical attraction toward Jack.

p.s.  Latjoreme, it's been very hot & humid here in Minnesota - approaching tropical rain forest dew points. 

Heh heh.  Welcome to my world.  On both counts.

[Front-Ranger]

I was watching the Ang Lee film "Ride the Devil" last night and one of the turns of plot might shed some light on Lureen and Jack. In the movie, the main character played by Tobey Maguire sort of falls into a marriage. One day the preacher and witness just show up and his best friend tells him to go for it. I think something similar also happens in "The Wedding Banquet." Lee is showing us a character who doesn't have much control over their destiny. He seems to believe that people don't have much say over their lives, that society forces us into molds that we don't fit. When you think of it, this is an Asian concept. It's the American way, particularly the Western way, for rugged individualism to be the norm, but we see in Brokeback Mountain that that is a myth. Another movie that showed this dichotomy was Tom Horn. It's not an Ang Lee film, I don't remember who made it.

[dly64]

Lee is showing us a character who doesn't have much control over their destiny. He seems to believe that people don't have much say over their lives, that society forces us into molds that we don't fit. When you think of it, this is an Asian concept. It's the American way, particularly the Western way, for rugged individualism to be the norm, but we see in Brokeback Mountain that that is a myth.

Very well said. I would agree 100%. A big theme in BBM is the toll that rural homophobia takes on all those involved ... not only Jack and Ennis, but the women in their lives, their children, et.al. The pressure of societal mores and the need for self preservation cannot be minimized. Rugged individualism? As you have said … “that is a myth”.

[Bucky]

As to the character that I am most like in the movie BBM it would be Jack.  I have always tried to be the peace maker instead of the exploding type.   I will explode if I am pushed absolutely over the edge like Jack was at the Thanksgiving dinner at his house in 1977.  L. D. Newsome went way over the line and only a total saint would not have done what Jack did.  In that scene in particular I always shout "go Jack go" and get a lot of satisfaction of him putting L.D. Newsome in his  place.

Jack is resilient but you have to be to succeed in life.  I do think though Jack became a lot more interested in Lureen when the bartender told him that her daddy had money and sold "big farm equipment such as $100,000 tractors."  I think that Jack loved Lureen as much as he could love any woman.  Jack by nature was sexually attracted to men not women.  It took an aggressive Lureen to seduce Jack in the back seat of her car.  Then Jack married Lureen and I think they became more like partners or best friends instead of lovers.   Lureen kept Jack from having to make business decisions or most other decisions and allowed him to concentrate on selling combines and then to go on his yearly trips to Wyoming to "fish with Ennis" and to see his folks.  It seems to me that Lureen never pushed Jack about their sex life although I know that she had to wonder why Jack didn't have the desires that most men would have for a sexy looking woman like herself.   I think for almost any gay man that Lureen would have been an ideal partner.  I know she would have for me because I hate "blowups" and with the exception of her father she kept Jack pretty well insulated from all the major stresses in life.  This was completely different from Ennis' situation in which Alma was constantly putting pressure on Ennis first to move to town and then to take different jobs.

[Front-Ranger]

We really need a poll or a test or somthun to help each of us figure out if we are more like Ennis or Jack. Well, U may have it all figured out, but I ain't yet had the opportunity. I suspect I am more like Ennis, since I can't figure myself out!!

[jpwagoneer1964]

We really need a poll or a test or somthun to help each of us figure out if we are more like Ennis or Jack. Well, U may have it all figured out, but I ain't yet had the opportunity. I suspect I am more like Ennis, since I can't figure myself out!!

I'm afraid I am much more like Ennis.

[dly64]

Jack is resilient but you have to be to succeed in life.  I do think though Jack became a lot more interested in Lureen when the bartender told him that her daddy had money and sold "big farm equipment such as $100,000 tractors."  I think that Jack loved Lureen as much as he could love any woman.  Jack by nature was sexually attracted to men not women.  It took an aggressive Lureen to seduce Jack in the back seat of her car.  Then Jack married Lureen and I think they became more like partners or best friends instead of lovers.   Lureen kept Jack from having to make business decisions or most other decisions and allowed him to concentrate on selling combines and then to go on his yearly trips to Wyoming to "fish with Ennis" and to see his folks.  It seems to me that Lureen never pushed Jack about their sex life although I know that she had to wonder why Jack didn't have the desires that most men would have for a sexy looking woman like herself.   I think for almost any gay man that Lureen would have been an ideal partner.  I know she would have for me because I hate "blowups" and with the exception of her father she kept Jack pretty well insulated from all the major stresses in life.  This was completely different from Ennis' situation in which Alma was constantly putting pressure on Ennis first to move to town and then to take different jobs.

I agree with you up to a point. I agree that Jack became more interested in Lureen when he found out that she came from money. Where I would differ from you is that, IMO, Lureen and Jack were never partners. We can surmise that they were hardly lovers. I also doubt that they shared much of anything with each other. Lureen almost became “parent like” … “new model’s coming in this week, remember …. you’re the best combine salesman we got … the only combine salesman, in fact …”

As for Jack and Lureen’s sex life … I think you are right that she doesn’t push him, but I think it is because she has shut herself off from her emotions. She comes to the realization that their marriage was one of convenience. As time goes on, she throws herself into the business as a way to distract herself. It is not that she doesn’t want the sexual intimacy. She more than likely has racked her brain about why Jack and her don’t have sex like they did when they first were married (I am making an assumption there …. notice that her hair is free flowing up until they have been married a few years. Then it gets stiffer and blonder and her appearance becomes harsher and harsher. The more makeup she uses is a “mask” to hide her inner turmoil). 

I also think that Lureen had troubles respecting Jack. Notice her reaction when the guys in the shop that said,  “Didn’t that piss-ant used to ride bulls?” … “He used to try". Jack doesn’t stand up to her or her father. When Jack finally lets L.D. Newsom have it … Lureen cracks a smile, as if saying, “It’s about time!!!”

[Bucky]

I'm afraid I am much more like Ennis.

     


I haven't figured myself out either but I do know that in temperament that I am more like Jack than Ennis.  

[Bucky]

I agree with you up to a point. I agree that Jack became more interested in Lureen when he found out that she came from money. Where I would differ from you is that, IMO, Lureen and Jack were never partners. We can surmise that they were hardly lovers. I also doubt that they shared much of anything with each other. Lureen almost became “parent like” … “new model’s coming in this week, remember …. you’re the best combine salesman we got … the only combine salesman, in fact …”

As for Jack and Lureen’s sex life … I think you are right that she doesn’t push him, but I think it is because she has shut herself off from her emotions. She comes to the realization that their marriage was one of convenience. As time goes on, she throws herself into the business as a way to distract herself. It is not that she doesn’t want the sexual intimacy. She more than likely has racked her brain about why Jack and her don’t have sex like they did when they first were married (I am making an assumption there …. notice that her hair is free flowing up until they have been married a few years. Then it gets stiffer and blonder and her appearance becomes harsher and harsher. The more makeup she uses is a “mask” to hide her inner turmoil). 

I also think that Lureen had troubles respecting Jack. Notice her reaction when the guys in the shop that said,  “Didn’t that piss-ant used to ride bulls?” … “He used to try". Jack doesn’t stand up to her or her father. When Jack finally lets L.D. Newsom have it … Lureen cracks a smile, as if saying, “It’s about time!!!”

     


I agree with you that Lureen became almost "parent like" with Jack and I would guess that was the way that Jack wanted it.  I don't think Jack really liked making decisions and when he did make decisions his decisions were usually rejected.  Ennis rejected his suggestion about the "cow and calf operation."  It just seemed to me as if Jack was "put down" all of his life because most people viewed Jack as someone not to be taken seriously when in reality he really was capable and did have some good ideas.  He was referred to as "the pissant that used to ride the bulls" by L.D. Newsome's friend to which L.D. replied "he used to try."  Again Jack was put in a light of contempt by those around him.  His dad whose ranch was in such a run down condition must have not have had any ambition in life to better himself so how could he have mocked and had such contempt for Jack when he could do no better?   It was like Jack was considered the "village idiot" by those around him when really he tried to make decisions and who knows his suggestions may have been better than most of the others' decisions.  I think Jack had been "beaten down" verbally so many times that he lost the will to try and in his business life he just let Lureen make all of the decisions. 

[Artiste]

As said in the second post:
       I see Jack more as being openhearted and sensitive to everyone around him. As I understand him, all he wanted was a little bit of kindness, some sign of loving affection from the men in his life (his father, Mr. Aguirre, Ennis, Jimbo, Mr. Newsome), but he never received any, except for the little bit from Ennis on the mountain and during their reunion. Jack's personality centered and hinged on this prospect of love and kindness. If you notice in the film, Jack was never afraid to show kindness. And I think we can suspect that he learned that from his mother, as his father didn't seem to show him any and none of the other men that he encountered in the film did either.

There are some people in this world whose beings center around this perception of being loved. And I think Jack was one of those people. He pursued many "interests" such as rodeoing and ranching, but I think all in all, these were attempts to be recognized and loved by his father specifically. He wanted to make him proud so that his father would finally show some appreciation to him. Most of the men in his life seemed to avoid doing that.               

............

May I say that sure reveals much about Jack and others !!  Does Jack do so, because he is a gay homosexual  or bisexual man), and , therfore, is openhearted and sensitive to everyone around him... as you say and others could say too ??

More details ?

Au revoir,
hugs!