Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?

[dly64]

Note: Even though Ruthlessly is no longer active on BetterMost, I am hopeful s/he is lurking. This thread is dedicated to you, Ruthlessly! I miss you terribly (as does everyone else on this board!)  Send me an e-mail if you see this, please!

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Why is the “dozy embrace” in the film?

I have read throughout this forum many POV regarding the “dozy embrace”. I have read that it is an unnecessary plot element; that it is a flaw in Annie’s story. I have also read the exact opposite. Why is this scene viewed so divisively?

The screenplay (which follows the short story almost verbatim) states:

Jack stands by the campfire, warming himself. He stands that way a few moments, alone.

Then we see two arms encircle him from behind: it is Ennis.

They stand that way for a moment, Jack leaning back into Ennis.

Ennis’ breath comes slow and quiet, then he starts to gently rock back and forth a little, lit by the warm fire tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadows of their bodies a single column against a rock. Ennis hums quietly.

Nothing mars this moment for Jack, even though he knows that Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds - - because for now, they are wrapped in a closeness that satisfies some shared and sexless hunger, that is not really sleep but something else drowsy and tranced ….


I, for one, believe this scene to be pivotal.

In reviewing the film, there are a number of themes. One is the freedom that BBM represents. It is a symbol of their love for each other … a time and place where they could be themselves without fear of retribution. On BBM, they are emancipated from societal expectations and mores. It is just the two of them. Nothing else in the world matters. Once they come down from the mountain, their idyllic world is shattered.

A secondary theme is Ennis leaving/ turning Jack away. When they are first on BBM, it is Jack who goes out to the sheep. Ultimately, Ennis takes over the responsibility. From the time they first have sex in the tent onward, it is Ennis who leaves. Examples:
•   After TS1, Ennis leaves Jack without saying anything
•   Post mountain, Ennis walks away from Jack
•   After the reunion, Ennis rejects the idea of having a life with Jack
•   Post divorce, Ennis turns Jack away
•   ETC.
Note: I am not saying Ennis never comes back. He obviously does. What I am saying is that it is Ennis who does the leaving and Jack who does the staying.

A third motif is the toll that rural homophobia takes on Jack and Ennis (as well as those who love them …. Alma, Lureen and Cassie).  It is this element that is the most painful. Ennis is governed by fear. He cannot face the reality that he is gay and that he loves a man. Ennis has been taught to hate everything he feels. Both Jack and Ennis follow societal expectations. They get married and have children. Ultimately, neither Jack nor Ennis are able to give themselves to anyone else because of their love for each other. Tragically, the society in which they live doesn’t allow them a place where they can deal with their feelings.

****

By the time we reach the lake scene, nearly twenty years have passed. Their lives with each other have been punctuated by pain. Their time on BBM has become a distant memory. Jack’s hope for a life together has long died. All of this history … the torment, the anguish … culminated in their argument the last day they were together. The story and screenplay state:

Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter, the years of things unsaid and now unsayable  - - admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears - - rise around them …

After Ennis breaks down ….

….. they hug one another, a fierce desperate  embrace - - managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they’ve just said is no news: as always, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.


It is after this emotional hammering when Jack recalls the “dozy embrace”. Jack remembers the time when they were young … where it was just the two of them … where they were free to love each other openly. For Jack, it is this closeness he desires.

Again, the story and screenplay state:

… Jack, much older now, watches the pickup truck, and his other half, fade away into the distance, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives.

****

The controversial element of the “dozy embrace” is the statement, “Nothing mars this moment for Jack, even though he knows that Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds.”  Yes, Ennis has embraced Jack face to face. They obviously kiss. IMO, this remark means two things:
1.   Ennis cannot hold Jack face to face in a moment of emotional intimacy. Think back to the motel scene. Jack is holding Ennis. They are not facing each other. Ennis is loving. He caresses Jack’s arms a number of times. However, Ennis is not looking at Jack.
2.   This statement refers to Ennis’ state of mind. He cannot “face” the fact that he is gay and that the love of his life is a man.


Annie Proulx’s essay, “Getting Movied” explains the “dozy embrace”:

The most difficult scene was the paragraph where, on the mountain, Ennis holds Jack and rocks back and forth, humming, the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man …. I was trying to write the inchoate feelings of Jack and Ennis, the sad impossibility of their liaison ….

The “dozy embrace” encompasses a number of themes: the freedom of BBM, Ennis’ homophobia, and lastly, Ennis’ leaving. In the “dozy embrace”, Ennis leaves to go back to the sheep. The sheep symbolize the crowd …. Ennis is one who follows societal norms and expectations. Every time Ennis leaves, he is returning to his life of convenience and fear. Beyond all of that, however, the “dozy embrace” illustrates the depth of their love for each other.

It should also be noted the way Ang Lee films this scene. IMO, it is one of the most beautiful scenes in the entire film. It is shot lovingly. There are very few cuts. Much of the scene is shown in close up. It reflects the intimacy of the moment.

[opinionista]

The following is an interpretation written by a former member of the forum. He's no longer here. I think it pretty much explains the dozy embrace. You don't have to agree, but I think his idea is interesting:

"While the following is INSERTED INTO movie's last scene with Jack and Ennis together, Annie Proulx wrote it as being something that happened AFTER the two guys split up in 1983. The first quote is from the trailhead parking lot and it took place with Ennis talking to Jack, who is already in his onw truck ready to drive off. Ennis waited until the last minute to tell Jack that there was a change of plans. 

...Ennis stood as if heart-shot, face grey and deep-lined, grimacing, eyes screwed shut, fists clenched, legs caving, hit the ground on his knees. "Jesus", said Jack. "Ennis?" But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things to almost to where they had been, for what they'd say there was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
 
In the text, there is a triple line spacing between the above and the below to show a time lapse and/or a change in location. I say that it is both. 
 
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger... Later that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the sngle moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and diffucult lives. Nothing marre it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he tought, they'd never go much farther than that. Let be, let be."  

IMO, "Let be, let be" is Jack's response to the "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" situation when he was last with Ennis. I just believe that Jack decided to "let Ennis be" and get on with is own life without Ennis. Ennis's setting all the rules for his relationship with Jack made Jack miserable. Because of his fear of being found out that he was 'queer', even at 39 years of age, it was always Ennis who decided when and where the two would meet. Ennis never wanted to do what Jack suggested after they first "fishing trip" in 1967. Jack did not have to stop loving Ennis to let him be and take charge of his own life."

[dly64]

The following is an interpretation written by a former member of the forum. He's no longer here. I think it pretty much explains the dozy embrace. You don't have to agree, but I think his idea is interesting:

It is interesting ... but you are right, I don't agree. Part of what the person said has been discussed in the "Why Jack Quit Ennis" thread. I didn't agree with that, either.

The question that has been posed in previous threads is whether or not the "dozy embrace" scene adds anything to the story ... if it was even necessary. IMO, it is very important to the story. When we see Jack after his recollection, he is watching Ennis drive away. His expression is one of sadness. He is sad because he sees time passing  ... he knows how their life could have been. Instead, he is left with a memory of a time and place where they could be invisible to the outside world. It is just the two of them. It is one of the few times where we, the audience, see the depth of their love. We know their love exists. We are witness to their passion for one another. But it is the non-physical intimacy that is important in this scene. 

[ednbarby]

I think it's absolutely necessary for the same reason Ruthlessly thought it was - because that was the moment when Jack first realized he was in love with Ennis.  Having him remember that as he watches Ennis drive away, as it turns out for the last time, then flash forward to the present of him standing there with all the life and hope drained out of his eyes and his jaw set shows us not exactly that he was resolute in quitting Ennis, like Ruthlessly (and I for a long time) thought, but that he realized he couldn't go on with things the way they were going.  I think this is the moment when, as Jake has said, Jack realizes he can't be with Ennis.  Jake never said when he thought that moment was - for a long time after reading that, I wondered if he thought it was at their meeting in Riverton after the divorce.  But now I think that that moment and all the other moments when he hopes so much for Ennis to be ready to/want to be with him the way he wants him to be and then has those hopes dashed in the blink of an eye are pieces of him falling away.  I think that last shot is when he's been dealt the final blow.  That is the moment Jack dies.  If he were fully able to quit Ennis, all hope would not be lost.  There'd at least be a shred of it left in that if it wasn't going to be Ennis (or Randall, for that matter), he'd get on with it and eventually be with someone who would be able to be with him fully and openly.  But it's because he can't fully quit him, now, that all hope is lost.

I actually think the dozy embrace not only is necessary but is perhaps the most important scene in the whole movie.  Without the flashback, we would never see the sexless hunger they felt for each other which is really what true love is, and thus we would never fully understand all that Jack lost when he knew he couldn't be with Ennis.
 

[Front-Ranger]

I agree with you and I can't understand why anyone would think the scene was unnecessary. It's the climax of the entire film!!

Another thing I love about this scene is the way it ties the imagery together. From the very beginning, when the camera pans over the smoldering campfire with its bucket and coffeepot lined up neatly together, to the boys in their signature shirts, to the horses in the background. And the music is heartbreaking.

[JT]

I think that "dozy embrace" was important and even necessary in the movie.  For one thing, it added to the sadness of that scene, a contrast between then and now.  I think very often when we tried to quit someone or set them free, we often think back to our happiest moment together.  I think that was what Jack was doing.  He was thinking back to his happiest moment with Ennis and even that simple embrace can satisfy Jack.  It was a true time that they both can be themselves and not have to worry about anyone or anything.  It was also a rare occation that Ennis actually expresses his love for Jack, and Jack felt it.  Not very often that we see Ennis holding Jack so closely, rocking him and humming softly to him, and Jack was savoring every minute of it.  It became something that was deeper and more meaningful than just having sex, which they've done more often.  And IMO that was why that dozy embrace became so important because it told us that their relationship is about true love, not those old fishing trips or tent moments.

[ekeby]

that was why that dozy embrace became so important because it told us that their relationship is about true love, not those old fishing trips or tent moments.

Agree completely. It was about true romantic love, and being completely in sync with each other. A subtext might be a paternalistic, caretaking love, something that (in my experience) seems go with romantic love in same sex male relationships . . .

[serious crayons]

The dozy embrace is the point at which I am most likely to burst into tears. That's because it so sharply emphasizes and deepens the tragedy of the scenes surrounding it. Bookending the argument and Jack's grim expression around that naive hopeful wondrous beauty of the dozy embrace (and contrasting the happy embrace with the anguished one we see just before it, in the argument) makes them especially heartbreaking.

That and, as Front-Ranger said, the details. The gently smoldering fire. The bucket and coffee pot, dozily embracing on the grill. The bittersweet music. The beautiful young contented faces. The rare nurturing moment for Ennis. The pure affection. Jack's loving expression as Ennis rides away.

Yet even that beautiful happy moment is laced with subtle foreshadowing of tragedy.

Ennis' confident "see you in the morning" suggests that, at some level, he feels as if there will always be a next morning. Of course, he doesn't REALLY believe that -- if he stops to think about it he knows their idyll can't last. But he's not allowing himself to think about that. Which is why he's so devastated when he comes back to find Jack breaking camp. Ruthlessly theorized that this scene occurs, chronologically, on the night before the Ennis wakes up to snow. I see no evidence of that, but I believe it anyway, because it makes such structural sense. Jack watches Ennis ride off on his horse, and then their relationship ends, this time temporarily. In the parallel later scene, Jack watches Ennis drives off in his truck, and then their relationship ends, this time permanently. Jack's "gonna snow tonight, for sure," underscores that parallel. It didn't actually snow, but it snows metaphorically. (It's cold, in any case. Why couldn't they go someplace warm? Then they'd never have to part).

The line is even more poignant if you think of "see you in the morning" as suggesting something more abstract or metaphysical, like "see you in the afterlife" or "see you in a better world where there's no homophobia."

I can't imagine why anyone would think the scene is unnecessary or expendable, but I am one of those who considers it flawed in the story -- and, I guess, the screenplay -- because of that "Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds" line.

Certainly, IMO, it makes no sense in the movie. Movie Ennis shows no reluctance to embrace a man from the front (just the opposite, if anything, judging from his scenes with Alma). In fact, this scene shows the one time in Ennis' life when he COULD embrace a man, and show his affection and love, without hesitation. The other part of the equation -- the shared and sexless hunger -- seems very well conveyed without that unpleasant qualification.

The same applies to the story. At other points in the story, Ennis has no problem embracing Jack from the front. It actually seems even more out of character for Story Ennis to worry about that -- he's less homophobic than Movie Ennis. Somebody argued that perhaps Ennis has progressed by the time of the reunion, but if we're supposed to draw that kind of conclusion I think it requires a bit of explanation.

I think the reason for the line is suggested in the quote of Annie's that Diane posted: "I was trying to write the inchoate feelings of Jack and Ennis, the sad impossibility of their liaison …." I think Annie decided that reluctant embracing was a succinct and concrete way to illustrate those inchoate feelings, with the bonus of undercutting the sentimentality in an otherwise sweet scene. But IMO it doesn't really work. It's distracting and confusing and out of character, it contradicts other parts of the story. It is TOO unsentimental (I once described Annie as zealously unsentimental, a quality that makes some of her other stories hard to read). It mars an otherwise beautiful scene. Sometimes even wonderful writers make less than perfect choices, and I just think this was one of those times.

Could it have some larger symbolic meaning (about homophobia, romantic frustration, etc.), as others have suggested? Sure. But I think an effective metaphor also has to fit neatly into the text of the story. If it doesn't, it's flawed.

By the way, Diane, I love this:

The sheep symbolize the crowd …. Ennis is one who follows societal norms and expectations.

Of all the symbolic meanings of the sheep, for some reason I never thought of that one before. Duh! Sheep often represent a conformist, herdlike mentality even in "real life." And that interpretation adds another dimension to "we're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat em" -- so in addition to "we're supposed to follow the rules, not break them" and "we're supposed to protect our charges, not endanger them" there's also "we're supposed to follow the crowd, not stray from it." And sure enough, look what happened to the one that strayed.

[jpwagoneer1964]

 
 

 
[/quote]Ennis doessa "yup' as he leaves Jack the following morning. Exactly as he did when he left for the sheep his first night with the sheep after Jack said "You wont get much sleep up there, tell you that." Of course it dismissive and he is facing away.

[nakymaton]

Can I just give a standing ovation to Diane for mentioning the other possible symbolism of sheep? When I hear "sheep," I think "conformity" rather than "innocent sacrifice." But I guess they can be both, in some kind of complicated way?

I agree with what everyone else has said about the importance of the dozy embrace at that point in the movie. (I don't know if Jack managed to quit Ennis or not; I'll just stay out of that debate.) I guess I would add that I think it's very important that it seems beautiful and uncomplicated, because the relationship has been so tense and painful since the divorce scene. The physical affection during the "sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it" is in the story but not in the movie; the movie gives us the memory instead. The contrast is achingly powerful, to me.

I think the reason for the line is suggested in the quote of Annie's that Diane posted: "I was trying to write the inchoate feelings of Jack and Ennis, the sad impossibility of their liaison …." I think Annie chose that phrase because it's a succinct and concrete illustration of those inchoate feelings, with the bonus of undercutting the sentimentality in an otherwise sweet scene. But IMO it doesn't really work. It's distracting and confusing and out of character, it contradicts other parts of the story. It is TOO unsentimental (I once described Annie as zealously unsentimental, a quality that makes some of her other stories hard to read). It mars an otherwise beautiful scene. Sometimes even wonderful writers make less than perfect choices, and I just think this was one of those times.

Hmmm. I think that the line in the story is important because we don't see Ennis's internalized homophobia as clearly in the story... we don't see that deeply into Ennis's feelings in the story as we do in Heath's face in the movie. (*Pauses briefly to contemplate Heath's face.* ) I didn't feel like the line was out of context in the story; I felt like it was a knife to the gut. (As for why I like being knifed in the gut... well, that's what I'm trying to figure out on this board here.) And I think that it's one of the most important lines in the story, because it sums up the essential tragedy.

(I agree that Annie Proulx is zealously unsentimental, and I think that BBM is my favorite of any of her stories that I've read because she unintentionally let herself fall in love with the characters. Not too much; not enough so that most people would notice. But enough so that the story had enough heart for Ang Lee's gentle touch to breath life into it. Ummm, sorry for the crappy mixed metaphor, but maybe you get the picture anyway.)

I think the line was kept in the screenplay for the same reason that so many of Annie's exact words were kept in the stage directions. I think the screenwriters were hesitant to cut them out, and liked the sound of the words. Some of the stage directions were turned almost exactly into silent scenes in the movie (my favorite one is Jack seeing Ennis as a night fire), but others, I think, were abandoned when they didn't fit the way Ang or the actors saw the characters and the story. And that's fine; the end result is really a wonderful work of art. *gushes some more incoherently*

[Mikaela]

Lots of interesting thoughts - thanks everyone. 

The fact that the story description (Jack's thoughts on how Ennis couldn't face him) is left in the screenplay doesn't mar the moment scene for me. Just looking at the film scene on stand-alone basis I'd *never* have figured that any such point was being made about Ennis there, and this is one time when the film scene is so perfect that I can't manage to worry about script or story. I'll take the film scene and leave it at that. 

And what the film scene does do is give us the last image of Jack and Ennis together. As the story's progressed there's been so many tense scenes, painful scenes, scenes where one or the other is walking away..... the lakeside quarrel that hurts a person's heart to watch. But the last time we get to see the two of them together, we get the dozy embrace - and that is what remains imprinted on our retinas and in our minds until we get to the shirts a little later on. The scene summarizes the entire film, Jack and Ennis's story: "Hey, *this* is what their relationship is and was all about. Don't you ever lose sight of that!" Making the contrast to the older Jack's sad and bitter face in the here and know all the more poignant, and the upcoming blow of Jack's death all the more devastating.

An iconic scene, deceptively simple, beautifully expressive, brimming with shared love and with the shy wondering at having found such love - revisiting that at the end, to contrast the pain and longing of their otherwise so separate and difficult lives after they left the mountain. Was the dozy necessary in the film? You bet!

(It also happens to be my computer's wallpaper. Can't ever tire of that image, seemingly.)

[jpwagoneer1964]

Lots of interesting thoughts - thanks everyone. 

The fact that the story description (Jack's thoughts on how Ennis couldn't face him) is left in the screenplay doesn't mar the moment scene for me. Just looking at the film scene on stand-alone basis I'd *never* have figured that any such point was being made about Ennis there, and this is one time when the film scene is so perfect that I can't manage to worry about script or story. I'll take the film scene and leave it at that. 

And what the film scene does do is give us the last image of Jack and Ennis together. As the story's progressed there's been so many tense scenes, painful scenes, scenes where one or the other is walking away..... the lakeside quarrel that hurts a person's heart to watch. But the last time we get to see the two of them together, we get the dozy embrace - and that is what remains imprinted on our retinas and in our minds until we get to the shirts a little later on. The scene summarizes the entire film, Jack and Ennis's story: "Hey, *this* is what their relationship is and was all about. Don't you ever lose sight of that!" Making the contrast to the older Jack's sad and bitter face in the here and know all the more poignant, and the upcoming blow of Jack's death all the more devastating.

An iconic scene, deceptively simple, beautifully expressive, brimming with shared love and with the shy wondering at having found such love - revisiting that at the end, to contrast the pain and longing of their otherwise so separate and difficult lives after they left the mountain. Was the dozy necessary in the film? You bet!

(It also happens to be my computer's wallpaper. Can't ever tire of that image, seemingly.)

Very well put. And with the change in camera angle midway it was a long one.

[dly64]

I am so glad to hear all of your thoughts! I think there is a lot that I have not yet considered.

I think it's absolutely necessary for the same reason Ruthlessly thought it was - because that was the moment when Jack first realized he was in love with Ennis.  Having him remember that as he watches Ennis drive away, as it turns out for the last time, then flash forward to the present of him standing there with all the life and hope drained out of his eyes and his jaw set shows us not exactly that he was resolute in quitting Ennis, like Ruthlessly (and I for a long time) thought, but that he realized he couldn't go on with things the way they were going.  I think this is the moment when, as Jake has said, Jack realizes he can't be with Ennis.  Jake never said when he thought that moment was - for a long time after reading that, I wondered if he thought it was at their meeting in Riverton after the divorce.  

I still think that moment occurs when Jack drives 14 hours to see Ennis after the divorce and is turned away. It is at that moment when Jack knew the “sweet life” he had hoped for would never happen. It’s not that he gives up Ennis … but he modifies his hopes. Jack tries to get Ennis to move to Texas … at least they could be closer than 14 hours. But, as usual, Ennis is unwilling.

But now I think that that moment and all the other moments when he hopes so much for Ennis to be ready to/want to be with him the way he wants him to be and then has those hopes dashed in the blink of an eye are pieces of him falling away.  I think that last shot is when he's been dealt the final blow.  That is the moment Jack dies.  If he were fully able to quit Ennis, all hope would not be lost.  There'd at least be a shred of it left in that if it wasn't going to be Ennis (or Randall, for that matter), he'd get on with it and eventually be with someone who would be able to be with him fully and openly.  But it's because he can't fully quit him, now, that all hope is lost.

That is an interesting POV. The look on Jack’s face, IMO, is one of sadness because he knows what they could have had. He remembers the time when they were young and their whole lives were before them. Jack longs to be with the man he loves. As an older man, however, he is fully aware that this will never happen. Is this why Jack says, “… so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that. It’s all we go boy, f—king all …”?? I don’t know.

I actually think the dozy embrace not only is necessary but is perhaps the most important scene in the whole movie.  Without the flashback, we would never see the sexless hunger they felt for each other which is really what true love is, and thus we would never fully understand all that Jack lost when he knew he couldn't be with Ennis.

I agree with you completely about this.

[twistedude]

"See you ion the morning," is what erither of my parents said to me, just before they closed the door after saying goodnight.  I cannot imagine a more cop\mforting, promising thing.

Obviously, the interpretation of the scene in the movie is not the same as that in the story. As for looking into Jack's face, Ennis is doing about as good a job of it as is possible from behind, where he is standing as a sort of pillar for Jack to lean against. There is nothing devisive about the scene, nothing.

Ang has leached all the devisiverness out of it, and put it in the final shot, where a bitter and worn-out Jack watches Ennis drive away, whatever, which was probably nothing, was decided between them in the words we don't hear after "I just can't stand it no more, Jack."

[Samrim]

I haven't done with this wonderful string, but it's bedtime and I'm tired, but.....

<<we would never see the sexless hunger they felt for each other which is really what true love is>>

I've never seen that comment written down before, and I thank G*d for it, edmbarby; I've always felt, in my long life THAT about the nature of love. It's the need to be WITH someone, two to become one, in an almost primeval fashion, even though not primarily sexually.

Love to all you Brokies

sam

[twistedude]

Although it may sometimes be sexdess, I would not rule sexual hunger out of any feelking of love, edenbarby, or whoever it was that justr ignored me...for some reason.

[coffeecat33]

There are so many thoughtful comments in this thread. I LOVE the dozy embrace. It's my absolute favorite scene in the film. (I don't think this is a "flaw" in A.P.'s story; she's too good a writer.) I love how Jack & Ennis can be so overwhelmingly passionate (1st tent scene) and then so tender (2nd tent scene). Jack never quits Ennis because he is hanging on to that one sweet, loving moment and keeps looking/hoping for it again. I don't think Jack ever quits Ennis, but he is raw with hurt after Ennis' rejection when Jack drives up to see him after the divorce. (How sad that Jack says, "I had to ask about 10 people where you were livin.") I think Jack then starts to protect himself with Ennis after that. He couldn't not go on the fishing/kissing trips with Ennis, but part of his soul gave up. The contrast between their youthful, beautiful and loving faces with the sight of Ennis driving away (all we can see is the horse's hind end) and Jack's disillusioned, sad and angry face is very telling.

[Katie77]

I have just read thru this entire thread, and it all brings back the sadness of this wonderful scene...so many meanings to it, and all of them seem right, so many feelings put into one scene, it is remarkable.

When I have watched the scene, I always think....Jack is always watching Ennis leaving him in some form or another.....after the first tent scene, as he rides up to the sheep, as he looks at him in the rear view mirror....he always seems to be going in the opposite direction to Jack, not only travelling, but in his thoughts as well.

The "dozey embrace" shows them facing the same way, and Jack remembering it this way, shows, that this is the way it should have always been.....

When they say that "a picture tells a thousand words", they must have been talking about this scene.

[serious crayons]

It's my absolute favorite scene in the film. (I don't think this is a "flaw" in A.P.'s story; she's too good a writer.)

Hi Coffeecat, how're things in my hometown? 

Just to clarify, I find the scene beautiful too, but in context very sad. And I DEFINITELY don't think the whole scene is a flaw -- just AP's line about Ennis not wanting to embrace Jack from the front. I think even gifted writers occasionally make less than perfect choices.

The "dozey embrace" shows them facing the same way, and Jack remembering it this way, shows, that this is the way it should have always been.....

I like this explanation better. I think the dozy embrace is supposed to show they were in love as opposed to just having sex, and having them embrace from the front would have confused the issue.

[ednbarby]

I like this explanation better. I think the dozy embrace is supposed to show they were in love as opposed to just having sex, and having them embrace from the front would have confused the issue.

I do, too, Katherine.  Thanks for that, Katie.

And Diane, you're right - Jack's hope certainly starts to die the day Ennis sends him on his way after the divorce, but he does still keep trying.  At least one time - "Well, maybe you oughta get outta there (and move to Texas to be closer to me)..."  And the "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" can be considered another attempt.  That phrase interests me so much: "...I can hardly stand it."  Jack's been trying to fix what he can hardly stand all along, and trying even harder in some ways after he knows to what extent and why Ennis is so broken.  Then of course the mirroring with Ennis' "I can't stand this no more, Jack."  Jack knows he can try to fix it all he wants, but if Ennis doesn't want to/can't, they'll never get any further than they are right then.  That, to me, is when he knows for certain that there is absolutely no hope.

Thanks Sam for your lovely compliment.  Yes, I think that is what true love is, too - a sexless hunger.  It was definitely worth the time and effort it took Annie to come up with that term.  Which is not to say, Julie, that true love is utterly sexless.  Just that the sexual passion the two of them feel for each other is based on true love - on fully understanding and accepting each other exactly as he is - not just on animal lust.

I've had passion for someone I didn't love, loved someone I had no passion for, and had passion for someone based on the love I felt for him at the very center of my being - as the song goes, he's the only one who really knew me at all.  And I'm here to tell ya that while the first two are each nice in their own way, ain't nothing like the third.

[Brown Eyes]

I agree with Katherine that the biggest and really the only flaw with the flashback is the idea in the story that Ennis wouldn't look at Jack in the face.  The actors/ Lee vastly improved this scene, I think, by having Ennis seem to almost strain to see Jack's face.

I still disagree with some of the quotes from other/older threads, etc. that Jack broke up with Ennis during the argument.  I think Ennis's confident (and very casual/ normal) postcard about November is evidence of this as well as Jack's self-admission that he really couldn't "quit" Ennis anyway.  I don't think either one of them could truly stand the thought trying to leave the other behind.  And I don't think that Jack would be doing Ennis any favors by "setting Ennis free" or any such thing.  Jack was not forcing Ennis to continue the relationship at any junture.  Ennis was perfectly happy to continue the relationship... but yes according to his terms, rules and round-up schedule.  What a dismal life they would both lead without one another... and Jack knew this.  Ennis often didn't know what was best for himself (I don't mean this in a condescending way... his true fears led him to make lots of life choices that were probably not the best ones... and left him feeling like "nothing and nowhere"- this was not Jack's fault... he's just deflecting blame like he does when he argue). And, through many moments in the relationship relied on Jack to lead the way.  So, even here at the end of the argument he's relying on Jack to do the torquing... back to where things were before by initiating the tight hug.

But, yes, the flashback is certainly a "bookend" about the beginning and end of the relationship.  The end because of Jack's death... not because of a break-up.  The foreboding is much more serious than a break-up (although that would be awfully serious).  "See you in the morning" alway sounds a bit to me like he's saying something like "see you in the next life" as if this last sentence we hear Ennis utter to Jack actually is displaced in time and is the last exchange between the two of them.  It's a bookend too because the flashback and the hug at the end of the argument... are at their most basic level all about hugs that are excruciatingly important and emotion-filled.  I can't imagine how depressing the end of BBM would be if we didn't see both of these hugs.  The flashback definitely shows their hopeful romanticism in the beginning and shows how sweet their romance probably was through the years (all those tent scenes, etc. that we don't get to witness).  And the hug at the end of the argument helps us feel a little bit better about the way the argument ended.  It also shows Ennis's continuing need to lean on Jack.  Others have noted that this collapse is a "bookend" for his dry heaves moment at the end of the '63 summer.  Only this time he doesn't need to cling to an empty wall... Jack is still their to support him. 

The timing of the flashback is so wonderful because it both reassures us about their romance, it makes our heart break because of the state of the relationship 20 years down the road and it helps create ambiguity since we don't see what happened between Jack and Ennis in the "real time" moment of the argument scene between the hug and Ennis driving away.  It's funny, during my first few viewings of the movie I don't recall thinking the flashback was so sad.  But now after all the discussions here and on the old board... the flashback truly is among the saddest or most heartwrenching scenes in the whole film.
 


Whew!  I feel like I'm talking a blue streak.



But, I have one simple question to add.  When Jack bows his head dow a little during the flashback embrace... Does he kiss Ennis's hand or is his head just bowing a little?

[dly64]

Yet even that beautiful happy moment is laced with subtle foreshadowing of tragedy.

Ennis' confident "see you in the morning" suggests that, at some level, he feels as if there will always be a next morning. Of course, he doesn't REALLY believe that -- if he stops to think about it he knows their idyll can't last. But he's not allowing himself to think about that. Which is why he's so devastated when he comes back to find Jack breaking camp. Ruthlessly theorized that this scene occurs, chronologically, on the night before the Ennis wakes up to snow. I see no evidence of that, but I believe it anyway, because it makes such structural sense. Jack watches Ennis ride off on his horse, and then their relationship ends, this time temporarily. In the parallel later scene, Jack watches Ennis drives off in his truck, and then their relationship ends, this time permanently. Jack's "gonna snow tonight, for sure," underscores that parallel. It didn't actually snow, but it snows metaphorically. (It's cold, in any case. Why couldn't they go someplace warm? Then they'd never have to part).

I like this train of thought. I have to agree with both you and Ruthlessly that this scene most likely takes place the night before the big snow. It also represents the arch of their relationship on the mountain. They start out as strangers and soon become friends, then lovers. It is important to show that their love for each other is not based solely on their mutual physical/ sexual attraction … but also on their emotional connection to each other.

I can't imagine why anyone would think the scene is unnecessary or expendable, but I am one of those who considers it flawed in the story -- and, I guess, the screenplay -- because of that "Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds" line.

Certainly, IMO, it makes no sense in the movie. Movie Ennis shows no reluctance to embrace a man from the front (just the opposite, if anything, judging from his scenes with Alma). In fact, this scene shows the one time in Ennis' life when he COULD embrace a man, and show his affection and love, without hesitation. The other part of the equation -- the shared and sexless hunger -- seems very well conveyed without that unpleasant qualification.

It is this issue that is the sticking point for many people. Movie Ennis, IMO, is more homophobic than story Ennis. In all three … the story, screenplay and movie … Ennis does embrace Jack face to face. They hug each other. They kiss each other. However, it is in the moments of emotional intimacy where Ennis is unable to face the reality that it is a man (Jack) he loves. This ties into the fact that Ennis is in denial about his sexuality. There is a difference between holding and embracing. Think about marital vows … “to have and to hold, from this day forward ..”

When I look at the word “hold” there are many things that come to mind … to maintain a grasp on something; remain fastened to something; to support in a particular position or keep from falling or moving. “Embrace” means to clasp in the arms : hug, cherish, love.

Holding is longer lasting. It is private. It is intimate. It is more than the physical act of embracing. Therein lies the difference. Ennis can embrace Jack face to face. He just cannot hold him face to face.

I think the reason for the line is suggested in the quote of Annie's that Diane posted: "I was trying to write the inchoate feelings of Jack and Ennis, the sad impossibility of their liaison …." I think Annie decided that reluctant embracing was a succinct and concrete way to illustrate those inchoate feelings, with the bonus of undercutting the sentimentality in an otherwise sweet scene. But IMO it doesn't really work. It's distracting and confusing and out of character, it contradicts other parts of the story. It is TOO unsentimental (I once described Annie as zealously unsentimental, a quality that makes some of her other stories hard to read). It mars an otherwise beautiful scene. Sometimes even wonderful writers make less than perfect choices, and I just think this was one of those times.

Could it have some larger symbolic meaning (about homophobia, romantic frustration, etc.), as others have suggested? Sure. But I think an effective metaphor also has to fit neatly into the text of the story. If it doesn't, it's flawed.

As I have previously stated … I don’t think it is out of character at all. It doesn’t contradict anything. Jack understands Ennis in a way that even we, the audience, cannot understand. It is  a beautiful scene. As it states … “nothing mars this moment for Jack ….” This is an intimate moment between the two of them. We are just the observers.

[dly64]

WOW! First of all, I have to say that I am enjoying hearing all of your POV. I wish I could respond to every single one … but I think you’d all get sick of just me gabbing … so let’s just keep up the dialogue.

But, yes, the flashback is certainly a "bookend" about the beginning and end of the relationship.  The end because of Jack's death... not because of a break-up.  The foreboding is much more serious than a break-up (although that would be awfully serious).  "See you in the morning" always sounds a bit to me like he's saying something like "see you in the next life" as if this last sentence we here Ennis utter to Jack actually is displaced in time and is the last exchange between the two of them.  It's a bookend too because the flashback and the hug at the end of the argument... are at their most basic level all about hugs that are excruciatingly important and emotion-filled.  I can't imagine how depressing the end of BBM would be if we didn't see both of these hugs.  The flashback definitely shows their hopeful romanticism in the beginning and shows how sweet their romance probably was through the years (all those tent scenes, etc. that we don't get to witness).  And the hug at the end of the argument helps us feel a little bit better about the way the argument ended.  It also shows Ennis's continuing need to lean on Jack.  Others have noted that this collapse is a "bookend" for his dry heaves moment at the end of the '63 summer.  Only this time he doesn't need to cling to an empty wall... Jack is still there to support him. 

I agree with you completely!

The timing of the flashback is so wonderful because it both reassures us about their romance, it makes our heart break because of the state of the relationship 20 years down the road and it helps create ambiguity since we don't see what happened between Jack and Ennis in the "real time" moment of the argument scene between the hug and Ennis driving away.  It's funny, during my first few viewings of the movie I don't recall thinking the flashback was so sad.  But now after all the discussions here and on the old board... the flashback truly is among the saddest or most heart wrenching scenes in the whole film.

I agree with you about this, too. I still think the post divorce scene is the hardest to watch. However, the lake and “dozy embrace” scenes are heart breaking. Each scene shows the vulnerability of both Jack and Ennis and the depth of their love for each other. We all know the outcome. We see what could have been. We are left to ask “why?”

But, I have one simple question to add.  When Jack bows his head down a little during the flashback embrace... Does he kiss Ennis's hand or is his head just bowing a little?

I’ll have to check this out. I have only seen him bowing his head. But I have missed things before that all of you guys have pointed out!

[Daphne7661]

I don't think I can imagine the book or the film without the dozy embrace!!!

By the time this scene comes into play in both the book and the movie, I am about as low as I can go.  I feel like I've been through 15 rounds of the biggest, knockdown, dragout fight of my life.  My head hurts, my shoulders are tense and my heart just aches from all that has happened up to and culminating in that final lake scene...  All of Jack's and Ennis' fear and anger and love just EXPLODES from each of them.  We watch, helpless, and hold our collective breath because we've been on pins and needles throughout the entire story.  We know how fragile this relationship is - not in its depth of love, but in its roots of fear.  As much as Jack and Ennis don't want to lose each other, we, the viewers, can barely breathe at the thought of them losing each other.

The dozy embrace flashback saves me!!!  My sad tears stop even if my happy heart tears start!  I adore Ennis in this scene.  He is calm, warm, passionate, caring, nurturing, loving, at ease, protective and in love...  I am SOOOO HAPPY for Jack in this scene.  When he feels Ennis holding him like that, I believe it is at this moment that he, too, realizes that he is most surely in love with Ennis.

Take this scene out, and we forget the magic and gift that Brokeback Mountain was for Jack and Ennis...

[serious crayons]

The actors/ Lee vastly improved this scene, I think, by having Ennis seem to almost strain to see Jack's face.

Exactly! Whatever one may think about the appropriateness of the book line about Ennis not wanting to embrace Jack face to face, I think the scene almost directly contradicts it.

And I don't think that Jack would be doing Ennis any favors by "setting Ennis free" or any such thing.  Jack was not forcing Ennis to continue the relationship at any junture.  Ennis was perfectly happy to continue the relationship... but yes according to his terms, rules and round-up schedule.  What a dismal life they would both lead without one another... and Jack knew this.

I agree absolutely. Although there is a certain tidy narrative logic -- even, in some ways, a wistfully romantic appeal -- in thinking Jack opted to break up with Ennis for his own good, it doesn't make sense to me based on my understanding of the characters or my grasp of the movie's emotional underpinnings. We, the casual observers, know Ennis would be destroyed by a breakup. So why wouldn't Jack, who knows him much better than we do, not realize the same? So many times, Jack is able to ignore Ennis' words and actions and reach out for him anyway; why would this be the exception, the one time when he takes Ennis' lashing out literally?

It's a bookend too because the flashback and the hug at the end of the argument... are at their most basic level all about hugs that are excruciatingly important and emotion-filled.  I can't imagine how depressing the end of BBM would be if we didn't see both of these hugs.

Plus the one in TS3!

[welliwont]

I agree with Katherine that the biggest and really the only flaw with the flashback is the idea in the story that Ennis wouldn't look at Jack in the face.  The actors/ Lee vastly improved this scene, I think, by having Ennis seem to almost strain to see Jack's face.

but I am one of those who considers it flawed in the story -- and, I guess, the screenplay -- because of that "Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds" line.

Exactly! Whatever one may think about the appropriateness of the book line about Ennis not wanting to embrace Jack face to face, I think the scene almost directly contradicts it.

I would just like to re-iterate the fact that Annie Proulx owns the characters of Jack and Ennis, and if Annie P chose to characterize Ennis as unwilling to embrace Jack face to face, and that Jack is thinking to himself maybe Ennis hasn’t advanced much at all in 20 years, then she has the right.  Jack and Ennis were her creations.  I would rather accept and understand Jack and Ennis as the author intended then to change the essence of their character.

Jane

[Brown Eyes]

Jane, I'm respectful of your opinion.    Of course.  And I know a lot of people feel that way. 

But, I think it's OK to critique Proulx a little bit.  And, I also think the characters in the movie are very different (in the case of Ennis... extremely different) than the characters as written in Proulx.  By the time two screenwriters a director and two actors start adding their two cents the characters grow beyond just belonging to Proulx.  Lee's decision to include TS2 and the happy tussle already contradicts the idea that Ennis didn't want to kiss Jack or embrace face to face.  I guess, it's the romantic in me that prefers the way the scene is handled in the film.  I really like that Ennis seems to be gazing at Jack's profile.  I think many aspects of the movie are more romantic than the book and this is one good example (at least from my point of view).

cheers
Amanda

[Katie77]

Well said Amanda.....

But, I think it's OK to critique Proulx a little bit.  And, I also think the characters in the movie are very different (in the case of Ennis... extremely different) than the characters as written in Proulx.  By the time two screenwriters a director and two actors start adding their two cents the characters grow beyond just belonging to Proulx. 

If Proulx wanted to describe things in more detail, she should have written a bigger book....something I have always had a grudge against her for not doing.....

The movie belonged to Ang, and thank goodness he made it go for two hours....

[Samrim]

 << I think the dozy embrace is supposed to show they were in love as opposed to just having sex, and having them embrace from the front would have confused the issue.>>

Nice point latjoreme, I like it a lot, and wish to agree with it.  But I think it maybe misses the point a bit. I thought Annie Proulx was emphasizing, with Ennis's refusal to admit that he was holding a man, that he loved Jack, a man, despite himself!

[opinionista]

The movie belonged to Ang, and thank goodness he made it go for two hours....

I disagree. This movie does not belong just to Ang Lee. Brokeback Moutain, as the entire production team, -including Ang- has said, is a product of a colaboration between a group of people which includes the director, the actors, the screenwriters, the director of photography and so on. The director has a lot of creative power, no doubt about it but he does not make the movie alone. For example, when Ennis finds the shirts, Jack's is outside and Ennis's is inside. Then, when we see the shirts on Ennis's closet, his shirt is outside, and Jack's is inside. That was Heath Ledger's idea, not Ang Lee's or anybody else's. Movies are a product of colaboration and creative work, all movies. I believe Jake Gyllenhaal himself has said it.

If Proulx wanted to describe things in more detail, she should have written a bigger book....something I have always had a grudge against her for not doing.....

IMO, the short story is fine, and has the necessary information it needs to convey the message. It's a short story and not a novel. I don't think the author wanted to make it a novel. She does give a lot of information, and important details. I don't think it needs further descriptions. For example, I know a lot of people disagree with this, but I for one think its pretty clear in the short story that Jack quits Ennis. Proulx actually says it, and so does the movie. But some people has interpreted this information in a different way, which is valid as well.

Something I've learned is that no writer ever writes an idea, word, sentence or phrase on a text just for the sake of writing it. Everything has a purpose, whether it's technical, symbolical, informational or whatever. If you erase the line where Jack's dad tells Ennis that he had another fellah coming to help him lick the ranch back into shape, the plot stays unchanged. You don't even need it to know that Jack's dad was a jerk. I think it is pretty much stated when Ennis notices his angry expression upon laying his eyes on him for the first time. Ennis realizes that Jack's dad was like other patriarchs, a common "type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond." So, IMO the comment about Jack bringing another man to live with him would be really out of context if it didn't mean that Jack had indeed quit Ennis. 
 
It also seems to me like a natural outcome, considering the difficulties in their relationship and the fact that they were seeing less and less of each other, as time went by. If you recall, Jack tells Ennis "you used to come easy, now's like seeing the Pope." I think that means that Ennis was not comming to see him as much as he used to when they first got together after 4 years apart. Jack was having a hard time with this. He was unhappy, cranky, and IMO he felt forced to look for sexual comfort some place else. I think he wanted to settle down with somebody, a man, and since Ennis kept refusing him, he decided to find someone else.  This doesn't mean he stopped loving Ennis. After the argument Jack finally realizes that Ennis wasn't going to change his mind (the dozy embrace), and there was nothing he could do about it. (PS. I know there's another thread about Jack quitting Ennis but IMO the dozy embrace has a lot to do with it.)

But, I think it's OK to critique Proulx a little bit.  And, I also think the characters in the movie are very different (in the case of Ennis... extremely different) than the characters as written in Proulx.  By the time two screenwriters a director and two actors start adding their two cents the characters grow beyond just belonging to Proulx.  Lee's decision to include TS2 and the happy tussle already contradicts the idea that Ennis didn't want to kiss Jack or embrace face to face.

I agree with this. The process of turning the short story into the movie has made it somewhat different from the original one. One thing I have notice is that Ennis movie is more taciturn than short story Ennis. For example, on the short story when they're at the motel, Ennis does tell Jack he's in love with him, which is what prompts Jack to come up with the idea of the cow and calf operation. He doesn't actually say I love you but he tells him:

"When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't let you out a my sights. Too late then by long, long while"

I think Ennis is letting Jack know what are his feelings for him. This doesn't happen in the movie.

Despite of this, I think the screenwriters as well as the director tried to keep it as intact as possible. In fact, Diana Ossana, in the interveiw included in the DVD extras explains why there are some differences. She said that she and Larry McMurtry had the intention to adapt the story to screen just as Proulx wrote it. But when the first draft was finished, it wasn't long enough to be a movie so they had to expand situations, and make up new ones so it could be long enough. For a 2 hour long movie, you need a 120+ pages long screenplay. One page equals one minute in the movie, more or less.


 

[stevenedel]

I'll add my two cents to this nuanced and interesting discussion because I seem to disagree with what appears to be the majority opinion in the above.

The embrace is for me the high point of the short story. It tells us exactly what binds Jack to Ennis, and how he feels about their relationship and its (lack of) future. It explains why he doesn't know how to quit Ennis. I always read his "Let be, let be" as the equivalent to Ennis"s "If you can't fix it...". The flashback is, as somebody else remarked above, the one place where even Proulx succumbs to something approaching sentimentality. A warm, dreamlike little oasis in a brutally pragmatic little story.

Now, I would hate to have the film without the dozy embrace, don't get me wrong. But plotwise, I do think the film could do perfectly well without it. The scene lacks the function it has in the story, because it tells us nothing about Jack's thoughts; it becomes a purely sentimental episode, devised to remind us of all the possibilities that were never realized. It is also a brief moment of repose that hightens the contrast with the high drama that went before it, and the tragedy that will follow. Furthermore it also compensates, to some degree, for the lack of intimate J&E scenes in the second half of the movie - though in doing so it reinforces the impression that they were intimate and affectionate in 1963, but not so much later on.

I also feel that when, at the end of the flashback, Jack watches Ennis ride off, the look on his face is troubled and wistful rather than suffused with happiness. Unlike in the story, in the film the flashback seems to foreshadow the trouble to come.

Can I just give a standing ovation to Diane for mentioning the other possible symbolism of sheep? When I hear "sheep," I think "conformity" rather than "innocent sacrifice."

I second that! "Get along little doggies"= don't stray from the herd.

[Katie77]

Having said my opinion of this wonderful scene, I now also want to tell you, what a bloody idiot i was after seeing the movie for the first time.

I had not read the book, and had no one at the time to talk about the movie with, and when I saw that scene I didnt realize it was a flashback.....I actually thought it was a mistake, and that there had been some mix up with the scenes...

I joined a message board, but had not read anything about this scene, but the message board had a thread about mistakes that were in the movie....and I, in my naevity, sent in that "they got it wrong, one minute Jack has a moustache and the next scene he doesnt have it".......and would you believe, no one even corrected me on this, or asked what the hell I was talking about.

After being in the message board community now for over six months, where we have dissected nearly every minute of the film, I feel quite embarrassed now, for even thinking that they would make such a blunder as I had thought they did, and even more embarrassed that I had the stupidity to write it in a message board post.

But it does go to show, that one viewing of the movie, (especially if the book hasnt been read), may not let the viewer appreciate or understand all the things going on in the movie....I remember I didnt see the words "deceased" on the postcard in my first viewing....it wasnt till I joined a message board, that I understood those last two words that Ennis said, "I Swear".....I was so shocked at the first tent scene the first time i saw it, that I hardly looked at it, brushed it from my mind, thought it was unnecessary.....

There are so many more things that I just didnt get, the first time I saw it, cant remember them now, because everything is now etched in my mind so clearly, yet with all that I missed or didnt understand, it still left a huge impact on me...I remember walking out from the theatre, and thinking, "what am I thinking, what am I feeling, something is different, something has happened to me here, what the hell is it?"......

I wonder how many others, who only see the movie the one time, and dont read the book, have a completely different take on some of the things that happened, what if they miss out on what was actually happening, the in depth of what was happening....I have found myself telling people who may be renting out the movie for a first time viewing, to watch it a couple of times...really watch it and think about it....I dont want them to miss out, or judge the movie, maybe incorrectly, because they didnt understand what was going on.

I lent the movie to my mother in law a couple of days ago, she is 80, and she rang me tonight to tell me she watched it and enjoyed it, (although, she said "there were a couple of scenes I didnt like).....I knew she would like it, I dont think I would have given it to her if I thought it would offend her, but on the other hand, I know, that she probably didnt get close to understanding it all.....her main comment about it was that it was "sad"......and "isnt that Jake Gyllenghaal a nice looking young man"........Now I would love to sit with her and watch it again, so I can explain things to her, hopefully I will do that after she has had a little break from it.

I know it cant happen, but I just want everyone to understand this story and what it is all about, without missing out on any details.......just like I would have done, if it hadnt got into my soul the first time I saw it and made me want to see more of it, and read more about it......

[Mikaela]

From Amanda
And, I also think the characters in the movie are very different (in the case of Ennis... extremely different) than the characters as written in Proulx.  By the time two screenwriters a director and two actors start adding their two cents the characters grow beyond just belonging to Proulx.  

I am immensely grateful to Annie Proulx - for creating Ennis and Jack in the first place, of course  - but almost equally grateful for her whole-hearted acceptance and enthusiasm for the film and the creative process of writers, director, cast and crew. The "getting movied" essay, where she among other matters says that Heath Ledger understood Ennis better than she herself did, is very liberating to me. Her statement that "My story was not mangled but enlarged into huge and gripping imagery that rattled minds and squeezed hearts" confirms it's entirely OK to love both film and story, differences and inconsistencies and all - without having to figure out which is the "truer" or "better" representation of any one event - without having to reconsile or explain anything if we don't want to. The short story is there, informing the our understanding of the film, - but not limiting it in *any* way.

Having previously seen what negativity and limitations disagreements between book and film "purists" is capable of bringing to a fandom, Annie Proulx's attitude is a wonderful gift to us from the author. (Never mind that if any film did deserve such an attitude, surely it has to be this one.......)

From Stevenedel
But plotwise, I do think the film could do perfectly well without it. The scene lacks the function it has in the story, because it tells us nothing about Jack's thoughts; it becomes a purely sentimental episode, devised to remind us of all the possibilities that were never realized. It is also a brief moment of repose that hightens the contrast with the high drama that went before it, and the tragedy that will follow.

I don't think I disagree with any of that - nevertheless I can't but think that the tension and tragedy of the developing plot almost necessitates that loving, romantic, dream-like flashback - fulfilling what I'd call a craving in the audience *and* in Jack. I do know that every time I've seen the film to the end, I've always had this huge urge to start back at the beginning, - to get to be reminded of Jack and Ennis in happier days once more. I think that was part of the reason why I saw the film a double digit times in the cinema. So the inclusion of the flashback is directly plot-driven to me in this sense, a very emotional sense, responding to longings in both audience and film characters at that point to be allowed for the tiniest minute to revisit and rewarm the old, cold time on the mountain...... when nothing seemed wrong.  

[ednbarby]

Amanda, to answer your question, I think Jack bows his head down mostly because he feels a sleepy, trance-like sort of peace at Ennis' warmth and affection, and maybe possibly to nuzzle his chin into Ennis' wrist/hand.  Then he leans back into him to nuzzle his neck and head into his shoulder.  Sigh.

And Sam, I love this:

I thought Annie Proulx was emphasizing, with Ennis's refusal to admit that he was holding a man, that he loved Jack, a man, despite himself!

I like the more positive spin that has on it - makes me feel much better than the thought of Ennis not fully accepting Jack as a human being, which is in conflict with my feeling that Ennis and Jack's mother were the only two people Jack ever knew who did that.  Thank you for that.

[dly64]

I continue to be amazed at the depth and insight of everyone discussing this topic. As usual, I find myself viewing things in a different and/or expanded way.

I am immensely grateful to Annie Proulx - for creating Ennis and Jack in the first place, of course  - but almost equally grateful for her whole-hearted acceptance and enthusiasm for the film and the creative process of writers, director, cast and crew. The "getting movied" essay, where she among other matters says that Heath Ledger understood Ennis better than she herself did, is very liberating to me. Her statement that "My story was not mangled but enlarged into huge and gripping imagery that rattled minds and squeezed hearts" confirms it's entirely OK to love both film and story, differences and inconsistencies and all - without having to figure out which is the "truer" or "better" representation of any one event - without having to reconsile or explain anything if we don't want to. The short story is there, informing the our understanding of the film, - but not limiting it in *any* way.

Having previously seen what negativity and limitations disagreements between book and film "purists" is capable of bringing to a fandom, Annie Proulx's attitude is a wonderful gift to us from the author. (Never mind that if any film did deserve such an attitude, surely it has to be this one.......)

I agree with you completely about this. I do like using source materials such as the story, the screenplay and interviews as a way to understand the motivation of the characters or as a method for clarification. Ultimately, the interpretation lies within me. My life experiences play a part into how I view the film as it does for everyone else.

 

The embrace is for me the high point of the short story. It tells us exactly what binds Jack to Ennis, and how he feels about their relationship and its (lack of) future. It explains why he doesn't know how to quit Ennis. I always read his "Let be, let be" as the equivalent to Ennis"s "If you can't fix it...". The flashback is, as somebody else remarked above, the one place where even Proulx succumbs to something approaching sentimentality. A warm, dreamlike little oasis in a brutally pragmatic little story.

Now, I would hate to have the film without the dozy embrace, don't get me wrong. But plotwise, I do think the film could do perfectly well without it. The scene lacks the function it has in the story, because it tells us nothing about Jack's thoughts; it becomes a purely sentimental episode, devised to remind us of all the possibilities that were never realized. It is also a brief moment of repose that hightens the contrast with the high drama that went before it, and the tragedy that will follow. Furthermore it also compensates, to some degree, for the lack of intimate J&E scenes in the second half of the movie - though in doing so it reinforces the impression that they were intimate and affectionate in 1963, but not so much later on.

I also feel that when, at the end of the flashback, Jack watches Ennis ride off, the look on his face is troubled and wistful rather than suffused with happiness. Unlike in the story, in the film the flashback seems to foreshadow the trouble to come.

This is certainly an interesting POV and I can’t disagree with your logic. I fall on the side, however, that this scene serves as one of the “bookends” in the film. We see the beginning of their relationship on BBM and we see the last memory of their relationship on BBM. It is also important to see Jack and Ennis loving each other without the sexual context.

It is interesting to note that in the short story, Ennis has dreams about Jack and they are always as Ennis had first seen him …. young. I think the film also tries to relay that sentiment. When they were on BBM, it was just the two of them. They were young and free from all of the expectations and responsibilities that followed. The “dozy embrace” serves as a contrast to what their relationship has become. Yes, they love each other deeply. But in their faces you can see the pain and the toll that rural phobia has caused. I also think the flashback reminds us, the viewers, of what could have been. As Jack says, “We could have had a good life together. A f--king real good life ...” Even as I write this, I get chills because I know they could have had a wonderful and loving life together. Instead, because of fear and societal constraints, they have been forced to live separately.

This movie does not belong just to Ang Lee. Brokeback Moutain, as the entire production team, -including Ang- has said, is a product of a collaboration between a group of people which includes the director, the actors, the screenwriters, the director of photography and so on. The director has a lot of creative power, no doubt about it but he does not make the movie alone. For example, when Ennis finds the shirts, Jack's is outside and Ennis's is inside. Then, when we see the shirts on Ennis's closet, his shirt is outside, and Jack's is inside. That was Heath Ledger's idea, not Ang Lee's or anybody else's. Movies are a product of collaboration and creative work, all movies. I believe Jake Gyllenhaal himself has said it.

Ditto. I believe Diana Ossana and Larry McMurty explain this very well … (the story) “…. ceases to be yours. It becomes the world’s.”

<< I think the dozy embrace is supposed to show they were in love as opposed to just having sex, and having them embrace from the front would have confused the issue.>>

Nice point latjoreme, I like it a lot, and wish to agree with it.  But I think it maybe misses the point a bit. I thought Annie Proulx was emphasizing, with Ennis's refusal to admit that he was holding a man, that he loved Jack, a man, despite himself!

As others have said … I love that, Sam! I think that hits the nail on the head.

[Brown Eyes]

I am immensely grateful to Annie Proulx - for creating Ennis and Jack in the first place, of course  - but almost equally grateful for her whole-hearted acceptance and enthusiasm for the film and the creative process of writers, director, cast and crew. The "getting movied" essay, where she among other matters says that Heath Ledger understood Ennis better than she herself did, is very liberating to me. Her statement that "My story was not mangled but enlarged into huge and gripping imagery that rattled minds and squeezed hearts" confirms it's entirely OK to love both film and story, differences and inconsistencies and all - without having to figure out which is the "truer" or "better" representation of any one event - without having to reconsile or explain anything if we don't want to. The short story is there, informing the our understanding of the film, - but not limiting it in *any* way.

I also think it's absolutely wonderful that Proulx is so excited and happy about the movie.  She seemed quite pleased to cooprerate and to communicate with the filmmakers, actors, etc.  It makes me feel better than if the movie truly upset the original author.  But the idea of "finishing the story" ourselves is very powerful to me... And the idea that the filmmakers tackled the story in their own way seems important too.  This is such a multifaceted story and it's been told in so many different ways!  Very interesting.  It's amazing that it's been told in two different forms by Proulx (the New Yorker and the fuller short story) and now we have this very powerful film (which because of it's exposure is now the primary way that most people will be familiar with the story... at least in the general public).  It's hard to pin point which version is the correct or definitive version (if there is such a thing). 

[dly64]

This is such a multifaceted story and it's been told in so many different ways!  Very interesting.  It's amazing that it's been told in two different forms by Proulx (the New Yorker and the fuller short story) and now we have this very powerful film (which because of it's exposure is now the primary way that most people will be familiar with the story... at least in the general public).  It's hard to pin point which version is the correct or definitive version (if there is such a thing). 

I think there is no "definitive version" ... that's why I love this film and story. There is a lot of ambiguity and it allows the observer/reader to make his/her own conclusions. I find it helpful, however, to hear all POV. I have been able to see things and hear things that I had previously not considered .

[serious crayons]

But, I think it's OK to critique Proulx a little bit.

It had better be! As someone who earns some (meager) pay as a book reviewer, I'd be in trouble if it weren't OK to question authors' decisions. Authors can choose to write whatever they like, but readers (and critics) get to decide how well those choices work. In the case of Proulx' story, I think most of her choices work very, very well. Obviously, since most of them wound up in a movie I have spent the past six months discussing. But there are a few choices I don't agree with, and that line happens to be one of them. Others may feel that line is perfect just as it is, which is fine, too.

I'd venture to say that the filmmakers questioned the story, too. Well, they may have loved the way all of the elements worked in the story itself. But it's obvious that they at least thought some of those elements should be changed for the movie.

But the idea of "finishing the story" ourselves is very powerful to me... And the idea that the filmmakers tackled the story in their own way seems important too.  This is such a multifaceted story and it's been told in so many different ways! ... It's hard to pin point which version is the correct or definitive version (if there is such a thing). 

I think there is no "definitive version" ... that's why I love this film and story. There is a lot of ambiguity and it allows the observer/reader to make his/her own conclusions. I find it helpful, however, to hear all POV. I have been able to see things and hear things that I had previously not considered .

I agree with all of this! There is no definitive version. Neither is beholden to the other. And so many parts of the movie (and story) are left SO ambiguous, I don't think they are meant just to be subtle, but are designed to allow for more than one interpretation.

I do know that every time I've seen the film to the end, I've always had this huge urge to start back at the beginning, - to get to be reminded of Jack and Ennis in happier days once more. I think that was part of the reason why I saw the film a double digit times in the cinema.

It's a product that creates its own demand -- like cigarettes or something. When you get to the end, it's so sad that you go back to the beginning iin search of happiness and closure, hoping in some small part of your brain that it will come out differently this time, then you get to the end and get sad all over again, so you go back to the beginning ...

[Samrim]

Although I regard the 'dozy embrace' scene as pivotal, and almost overpoweringly emotional, and it reduces me to pathetic snivels with monotonous regularity, I still feel it doesn't fit comfortably into the lake side scene. Early on it had ME confused too about what was going on, even though we now know just how powerful a metaphor it is for the bond between our boys!
Having said that, I haven't a clue where it would fit any better, possibly AFTER Ennis had driven away that last time! (Gulp)
 

[jpwagoneer1964]

Although I regard the 'dozy embrace' scene as pivotal, and almost overpoweringly emotional, and it reduces me to pathetic snivels with monotonous regularity, I still feel it doesn't fit comfortably into the lake side scene. Early on it had ME confused too about what was going on, even though we now know just how powerful a metaphor it is for the bond between our boys!
Having said that, I haven't a clue where it would fit any better, possibly AFTER Ennis had driven away that last time! (Gulp)
 

The only part I don't like about the 'dozey embrace" is the contrast of Jack's then to the then present. Heartbreaking. I do agree that Ennis does look into Jack's face from behind.

[coffeecat33]

Sorry. But all I can think of is, WOW. This is a great thread and I wish I had a little more energy to dissect it. It's interesting, Annie Proulx said that (essentially) Jack & Ennis had a life of their own, the story has a life of its own, and the movie has a life of its own. As far as including the dozy embrace in the film, well it is a film and some things need to be explained visually and including for visual and cinematic effect. (Please note I am not suggesting anything was done in this film 'just because' - rather I think Ang Lee was very deliberate with his choices.) I tell you what... I love someone to embrace me from behind, I love embracing someone from behind (I am talking standing up hugs, people!) and I think Ennis embracing Jack from behind - in contrast to the violently passionate first tent scene that was also from behind - was so loving, tender and quietly passionate. This scene breaks my heart more than any other. Jack is so beautiful, Ennis so sweet that I can hardly stand it.

[dly64]

Although I regard the 'dozy embrace' scene as pivotal, and almost overpoweringly emotional, and it reduces me to pathetic snivels with monotonous regularity, I still feel it doesn't fit comfortably into the lake side scene. Early on it had ME confused too about what was going on, even though we now know just how powerful a metaphor it is for the bond between our boys!
Having said that, I haven't a clue where it would fit any better, possibly AFTER Ennis had driven away that last time! (Gulp)

I, on the other hand, find that it fits perfectly where it is. Jack and Ennis have just had their most intense and personal confrontation in their long-term relationship. The flashback serves as a counterpoint to what their relationship has become. They spent twenty years going through the wringer … and we, the audience, have gone through it with them. The flashback serves as a reminder of what they had while on the mountain … a loving, unvarnished, and open relationship.

The only part I don't like about the 'dozey embrace" is the contrast of Jack's then to the then present. Heartbreaking. I do agree that Ennis does look into Jack's face from behind.

IMO, that is an important facet of the lake and “dozy embrace” scenes. It is that contrast that makes the flashback so poignant.

It's interesting, Annie Proulx said that (essentially) Jack & Ennis had a life of their own, the story has a life of its own, and the movie has a life of its own. As far as including the dozy embrace in the film, well it is a film and some things need to be explained visually and including for visual and cinematic effect. (Please note I am not suggesting anything was done in this film 'just because' - rather I think Ang Lee was very deliberate with his choices.) I tell you what... I love someone to embrace me from behind, I love embracing someone from behind (I am talking standing up hugs, people!) and I think Ennis embracing Jack from behind - in contrast to the violently passionate first tent scene that was also from behind - was so loving, tender and quietly passionate. This scene breaks my heart more than any other. Jack is so beautiful, Ennis so sweet that I can hardly stand it.

I agree with you are saying. The one thing I want to reiterate …. and I know it sounds like I am nitpicking (which I have been known to do from time to time) …. is that there is a difference between embracing and holding. Holding is a lot more intimate. Think of marital vows … “to have and to hold”. I know I have said this earlier in this thread, so pardon my redundancy. However, it is worth repeating. Yes … Ennis can embrace Jack face to face, they kiss face to face, but Ennis is unable to hold Jack face to face. Think of the motel scene … Ennis is not facing Jack. The “dozy embrace” is the same way. IMO, it is a metaphor for Ennis’ being unable to face the reality that he loves a man and that he is, indeed, gay. Jack understands this to be true. He also knows that Ennis loves him, and that is all that really matters.

[nakymaton]

You know, despite the whole not-looking-face-to-face metaphor, the sort of spooning position (standing, sitting, lying down, whatever) has the connotation of "protection" or "comfort" or "safety" to me. (Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

[jpwagoneer1964]

IMO, that is an important facet of the lake and “dozy embrace” scenes. It is that contrast that makes the flashback so poignant.

 
[/quote]I agree with you the importance of the embrace and the timing. It's sad reflection on what their lives could have had when you see Jack as Ennis drives away, which of course is the point.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes I do and I found it very poignant. Another movie where this is seen is "Hero" which is a Chinese movie made by one of Ang Lee's rivals. At the very end, the "hero" commits hari kari, and as he is waiting to die, the woman warrior who loves him comes up behind him and sits at his back, and talks to him. So they sit, facing the sunset, until she takes hold of the sword and forces it still further, into her own body. So they die in that position. When I saw it, it made me think of BBM.

[serious crayons]

(Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

Count me in! (Another example is TS3.) I realize there are lots of reasons to believe Ennis is uncomfortable about his relationship with Jack, but IMO these holding positions are not among them. In fact, very little about his body language with Jack reads that way to me. Despite all his reservations, when he's actually with Jack he almost always seems very happy to me.

[Katie77]

You know, despite the whole not-looking-face-to-face metaphor, the sort of spooning position (standing, sitting, lying down, whatever) has the connotation of "protection" or "comfort" or "safety" to me. (Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

Yeah you got it......comforting, protecting......standing as one.....to me is as intimate as if they are making love.....

[Brown Eyes]

Well, in terms of the timing/ placement of the flashback in the film/ story... I think the decision came down to the "bookend" idea... the beginning and the end of the relationship and also the comparison and contrast between the hugs. 

Although, this does seem quite important (maybe?)... the flashback in the story seems to be positioned slightly differently from the film.  The flashback in the story does seem to come at the very end of the "argument scene" and before a break in the story (and even a break in how the type is set on the page) after which Ennis receives the "deceased" postcard.  So, it seems (at least in how I read the longer version of BBM in Proulx's Close Range) the flashback is positioned in line with how Samrim would prefer to see it in the movie.

Lee, very interestingly, seems to have decided to move the flashback up just a tiny bit so that it interrupts the argument.  I still think this is simply to help encourage a lingering sense of ambiguity as to how the boys concluded the hug/ heated-conversation.  But, this might be a really important gesture on the part of the filmmakers.

[dly64]

You know, despite the whole not-looking-face-to-face metaphor, the sort of spooning position (standing, sitting, lying down, whatever) has the connotation of "protection" or "comfort" or "safety" to me. (Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

You are right ... they are spooning and it is comforting and loving. But, in all those scenes, Ennis is not looking at Jack face- to-face. It is the most intimate moments where Ennis is holding/ spooning Jack. I don’t want to belabor this issue, because I know there are completely opposing views. IMO, it makes a statement about who Ennis is. Ennis is a person with a lot of fear and denial. He loves Jack … but to admit that to himself would mean that he accepts his homosexuality. Ennis is unable to “face” a lot of things. Certainly his sexuality is a big issue. So, whether or not you take the statement that Ennis “… does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds …” literally is debatable. However, to look at it metaphorically makes a lot of sense. Just a thought!

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Brilliant, dly, and very touching.

[Brown Eyes]

Just as an interesting exercise... here are the definitions of "embrace" and "hold" according to the dictionary I have on hand at the moment (Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary- a nice leather bound copy I might add  ).

Anyway, I'm maintaining the dictionary's capitalization and puncutation here. I'm omitting some extraneous info about pronunciation and grammar (and I'm omitting the little examples of usage contained within the definitions in the dictionary text).  The two definitions of "embrace" are essentially the complete entries for this word (as a verb and as a noun).  I'm being more selective with "hold" because the definition is extremely long... and frankly no one wants to read all of it I'm guessing. I'll give you the first 7 definitions of "hold" as a verb out of almost a page of variations.  In any case, the definitions for "embrace" seem quite poetic when we think about our boys.  "Hold" contains within it some more problematic meanings.  The more I read the definitions of "hold" the more disturbing it actually is to think of it as being part of a marriage ceremony (a context noted in an earlier post)- since its main meanings have to do with possession, physical containment and control - even repression.  In a way, the choice of the word "embrace" seems to be a pretty direct word to choose to convey the idea of a sweet hug.  It seems like a much less complex word and a more unproblematically romantic word.  For what it's worth.

em-brace, vb-
1) a: to clasp in the arms: HUG b: CHERISH. LOVE  2):  ENCIRCLE, ENCLOSE 3) a: to take up esp. readily or gladly b: to avail oneself of: WELCOME 4) a: to take in or include as a part, item, or element of a more enclusive whole b: to be equal or equivalent vt: to participate in an embrace  syn: see ADOPT, INCLUDE

em-brace, n-
1): a close encircling with the arms and pressure to the bosom esp. as a sign of affection: HUG 2): GRIP, ENCIRCLEMENT 3): ACCEPTANCE


hold, vb-
1) a: to have possession or ownership of or have at one's disposal  b: to have the as a privilege or position of responsibility c: to have as a mark of distinction  2): to keep under restraint  a: to prevent free expression of  b: to prevent from some action c: to keep back from use  d: to delay temporarily the handling of  3): to make liable or accountable or bound to an obligation  4) a: to have or maintainin the grasp  b: to support or keep from falling or moving  c: to bear the pressure of: SUPPORT  5): to prevent from leaving or getting away  a: to avoid emitting or letting out b: to restrain as or as if a captive 6) a: to enclose and keep in a container or within bounds: CONTAIN b: to be able to consume easily or without due effect  c: ACCOMMODATE d: to have as a principal or essential feature or attribute; also to have in store  7) a: to have in the mind or express as a judgment, opinion or belief  b: to think of in a particular way: REGARD

[serious crayons]

That's interesting, Amanda. "Embrace" also seems to me to be more about love or affection than "hold."

In any case, I think it would be pretty easy for the filmmakers to suggest physical reluctance on Ennis' part, if they wanted to. For instance, they do just that, before the sexual part of their relationship begins, in the post-bear scene -- Ennis won't accept Jack's nurturing. But in the parallel post-Earl story scene, he does.

Also, it's very meaningful to me that Ennis NEVER looks anything less than thrilled to see Jack. Even in the post-divorce scene, his initial reaction is a smile and huge hug.

[jpwagoneer1964]

That's interesting, Amanda. "Embrace" also seems to me to be more about love or affection than "hold."

In any case, I think it would be pretty easy for the filmmakers to suggest physical reluctance on Ennis' part, if they wanted to. For instance, they do just that, before the sexual part of their relationship begins, in the post-bear scene -- Ennis won't accept Jack's nurturing. But in the parallel post-Earl story scene, he does.

Also, it's very meaningful to me that Ennis NEVER looks anything less than thrilled to see Jack. Even in the post-divorce scene, his initial reaction is a smile and huge hug.

Excellent point. And remember the friendly jostling  after shootuing the elk?

[nakymaton]

Ennis's conflicted looks seem to show up when he's brought out of the immediate moment and has to think about longterm plans or about the rest of the world.* (Examples -- when Ennis comes back to see the tent coming down; when Jack says "what're we gonna do now" in the Motel Siesta; after Jack mentions the cow and calf operation; after Jack give the first "kiss me" look in the post-divorce scene.)

*(At least from TS2 on. I think Ennis looks pretty confused on the morning after TS1.)

But, yeah, Katherine, Ennis looks happiest and least conflicted in little moments with Jack.

[serious crayons]

Ennis's conflicted looks seem to show up when he's brought out of the immediate moment and has to think about longterm plans or about the rest of the world.* (Examples -- when Ennis comes back to see the tent coming down; when Jack says "what're we gonna do now" in the Motel Siesta; after Jack mentions the cow and calf operation; after Jack give the first "kiss me" look in the post-divorce scene.)

Very good point, Mel. Although I'd argue that those are different kinds of examples. When Ennis sees the tent coming down, his look to me is purely about disappointment over having to part with Jack prematurely, not discomfort about their relationship itself. Same thing in the motel; he's sad that the happiness with Jack can't last. But in the cow-and-calf scene and the post-divorce "kiss me" moment -- as well as the "why don't you move to Texas" scene -- his reaction more clearly shows him feeling that Jack is coming on too strong.

*(At least from TS2 on. I think Ennis looks pretty confused on the morning after TS1.)

That's true. It's like he turns a corner in TS2.

Ennis looks happiest and least conflicted in little moments with Jack.

The one I always think of is the "look what I brought" scene -- such a fleeting moment, but the huge happy smiles they both give upon seeing each other says a lot.

As long as their relationship stays status quo and sticks to Ennis' rules, he's happy when they're together. Even in those last scenes he seems very content. There's no doubt that Ennis was uncomfortable about the fact that he was in a relationship with a man. But he didn't let those doubts affect his affectionate behavior toward Jack, except on those occasions when Jack tried to push their relationship to a different level.

[dly64]

In any case, the definitions for "embrace" seem quite poetic when we think about our boys.  "Hold" contains within it some more problematic meanings.  The more I read the definitions of "hold" the more disturbing it actually is to think of it as being part of a marriage ceremony (a context noted in an earlier post)- since its main meanings have to do with possession, physical containment and control - even repression.  In a way, the choice of the word "embrace" seems to be a pretty direct word to choose to convey the idea of a sweet hug.  It seems like a much less complex word and a more unproblematically romantic word.

Amanda – the sad thing is, I read those definitions previously and found that “hold” was more permanent, not so temporary. (What does that say about me?) But, I see your point and the others’. “Embrace” is a much more affectionate term.

Very good point, Mel. Although I'd argue that those are different kinds of examples. When Ennis sees the tent coming down, his look to me is purely about disappointment over having to part with Jack prematurely, not discomfort about their relationship itself. Same thing in the motel; he's sad that the happiness with Jack can't last. But in the cow-and-calf scene and the post-divorce "kiss me" moment -- as well as the "why don't you move to Texas" scene -- his reaction more clearly shows him feeling that Jack is coming on too strong.

As long as their relationship stays status quo and sticks to Ennis' rules, he's happy when they're together. Even in those last scenes he seems very content. There's no doubt that Ennis was uncomfortable about the fact that he was in a relationship with a man. But he didn't let those doubts affect his affectionate behavior toward Jack, except on those occasions when Jack tried to push their relationship to a different level.

Their relationship on the mountain was different than post-mountain. What I mean by this is that, yes, Ennis was unable to face the reality that this was a man he loved. What they had on BBM, however, was freedom. It implies in the film (it is more explicitly stated in the story) that they started having sex only at night in the tent and then moved it outside in “full daylight”. At their reunion, their passion for each other is intense. Untypical of Ennis, he can’t wait to kiss Jack so he pushes Jack into the stairwell. It is important to note one thing …. after they have stopped kissing and Jack’s hand is still holding Ennis, Ennis pulls the arm down. Ennis gives Jack an affectionate nuzzle, but after that point Ennis never takes the risk again to be seen with Jack publicly.

When Jack comes to see Ennis post divorce, there are a few things that make Ennis uncomfortable. One is that Jack has come to see him at his residence. You can see Ennis’ paranoia when the pickup drives by. The second thing is that Jack wants to kiss Ennis. Notice this time that Ennis pulls Jack’s arm down and backs away (which is a contrast to the nuzzle at the time of their reunion).

I bring all of this up because I don’t think Ennis believes Jack is coming on too strong (except for the Texas conversation …). I think it all lies in Ennis’ childhood memory of seeing a dismembered and mutilated Earl. He doesn’t have a life with Jack because he is homophobic and full of fear. This leads to Ennis’ mantra for the remainder of their relationship:

“… we’re around each other and this thing grabs hold of us again in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and we’re dead ….

Two guys livin’ together? No way. We can get together once in a while way out in the middle of nowhere, but …”

Ennis remains affectionate and vulnerable towards Jack, but is unable to give himself in the way that Jack craves.

[nakymaton]

When Jack comes to see Ennis post divorce, there are a few things that make Ennis uncomfortable. One is that Jack has come to see him at his residence. You can see Ennis’ paranoia when the pickup drives by. The second thing is that Jack wants to kiss Ennis. Notice this time that Ennis pulls Jack’s arm down and backs away (which is a contrast to the nuzzle at the time of their reunion).

I bring all of this up because I don’t think Ennis believes Jack is coming on too strong (except for the Texas conversation …). I think it all lies in Ennis’ childhood memory of seeing a dismembered and mutilated Earl. He doesn’t have a life with Jack because he is homophobic and full of fear.

Yeah, there are a lot of things in the post-divorce scene that hit Ennis's low startle point. (I shortened it way too much by just mentioning Jack's attempt to kiss Ennis.) Jack at Ennis's house, Ennis's daughters sitting there in Ennis's truck, those ten people Jack asked where Ennis had gone, that white truck that goes by... all of those would make Ennis feel very unsafe out there in his driveway. I think Jack was too elated about what he thought Ennis had meant in that postcard to realize that Ennis's driveway wasn't the middle of nowhere, at least not to Ennis.

I don't think that Ennis's peaceful look is the result of being in control of the situation. I see it as moments when Ennis isn't thinking about what he's supposed to be, or about what could happen... moments when Ennis simply IS. (I'm imagining something like the state that one is supposed to try to acheive in Zen meditation, I guess.)

[serious crayons]

I bring all of this up because I don’t think Ennis believes Jack is coming on too strong (except for the Texas conversation …). I think it all lies in Ennis’ childhood memory of seeing a dismembered and mutilated Earl.

Well, I think he also believes Jack is coming on too strong in the cow-and-calf scene -- when I say "coming on too strong," I mean Ennis feels he's trying to push the relationship to a level that makes Ennis uncomfortable.

In the post divorce scene, it's true that Ennis shies away at a number of points, several of them innocuous, like the white truck and Jack asking the 10 people. (And somebody pointed out that, by the same token, 90 percent of the people in town don't pay much attention to Ennis' business.)

But I'll have to say I guess I can understand why Ennis would hesitate to kiss Jack in front of his daughters. For reasons that go even beyond homophobia.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Well, I think he also believes Jack is coming on too strong in the cow-and-calf scene -- when I say "coming on too strong," I mean Ennis feels he's trying to push the relationship to a level that makes Ennis uncomfortable.

 

There is a look Ennis gives at the end of "cow calf operation..." just as Jack touches his ear like 'I know I wish we could but...' or 'You only make it worse when you reach for me, that we cant be together.'

[dly64]

I don't think that Ennis's peaceful look is the result of being in control of the situation. I see it as moments when Ennis isn't thinking about what he's supposed to be, or about what could happen... moments when Ennis simply IS.

I agree. The truth is, Ennis mostly just “IS” while on BBM … before the “real world” stripped him of his inhibitions and before he had domestic responsibilities. What they could have had just breaks me in two every time I think about it!

Well, I think he also believes Jack is coming on too strong in the cow-and-calf scene -- when I say "coming on too strong," I mean Ennis feels he's trying to push the relationship to a level that makes Ennis uncomfortable.

Alright … that makes more sense to me. 

In the post divorce scene, it's true that Ennis shies away at a number of points, several of them innocuous, like the white truck and Jack asking the 10 people. (And somebody pointed out that, by the same token, 90 percent of the people in town don't pay much attention to Ennis' business.)

But I'll have to say I guess I can understand why Ennis would hesitate to kiss Jack in front of his daughters. For reasons that go even beyond homophobia.

Yeah … I can see that, too. The girls look a little puzzled as to who this guy is (even though I figure Alma, Jr. sort of figured it out when she got older).

OT: I happened to think of this while I was writing. The following exchange has always puzzled me. Unsure why, but it does. Alma, Jr. and Cassie have this dialogue in the bar:
Cassie:  …. Your daddy ever gonna see fit to settle down again?
Alma, Jr. Don’t know … Maybe he’s not the marrying kind.
Cassie: You don’t think so? Or you don’t think I’m the one for him?
Alma, Jr. You’re good enough.
Cassie: You don’t say much, but you get your point across.

What is really being said here? I have always thought that Alma, Jr. figures that Ennis is gay and has no idea why he is wasting time with this person. I just don’t know. Any thoughts?

There is a look Ennis gives at the end of "cow calf operation..." just as Jack touches his ear like 'I know I wish we could but...' or 'You only make it worse when you reach for me, that we cant be together.'

Are you saying that Ennis has inner turmoil? If that is the case, yes. Every time they get together and have to say goodbye, I think it is tense. Secretly does Ennis want a life with Jack? I think so … but that is the romantic in me again.

[serious crayons]

Alma, Jr. and Cassie have this dialogue in the bar:
Cassie:  …. Your daddy ever gonna see fit to settle down again?
Alma, Jr. Don’t know … Maybe he’s not the marrying kind.
Cassie: You don’t think so? Or you don’t think I’m the one for him?
Alma, Jr. You’re good enough.
Cassie: You don’t say much, but you get your point across.

Yeah, I think that's it. Either Alma means just what she says, or she suspects he's gay. I think I've heard someone suggest some even deeper meaning to this exchange, but I can't remember what it is.

What I don't get is what Cassie means. What does she think Alma's point is?

There is a look Ennis gives at the end of "cow calf operation..." just as Jack touches his ear like 'I know I wish we could but...' or 'You only make it worse when you reach for me, that we cant be together.'

I think it's the first. He looks really sad there, partly because he's had to relive the horrifying experience. But it's also related, I think, to his desolate expression in the Motel Siesta when Jack asks what they're going to do now. He doesn't dare live with a man, but that doesn't mean he's not distraught at having to be apart from Jack.

[nakymaton]

What I don't get is what Cassie means. What does she think Alma's point is?

I think that Cassie thinks that Alma's saying that Ennis doesn't love Cassie; that she just happens to be the one that he's with. I don't think that she every understands the reason why Ennis will never fall in love with her, though.

"I don't get you, Ennis del Mar..."

[dly64]

What I don't get is what Cassie means. What does she think Alma's point is?

OMG!! I thought I was the only one! I can't figure out what Cassie means, either. I mean, I have watched this film >100 times and everytime she says that, I scratch me head and say, "huh?"

He looks really sad there, partly because he's had to relive the horrifying experience. But it's also related, I think, to his desolate expression in the Motel Siesta when Jack asks what they're going to do now. He doesn't dare live with a man, but that doesn't mean he's not distraught at having to be apart from Jack.

Agreed.

[dly64]

I think that Cassie thinks that Alma's saying that Ennis doesn't love Cassie; that she just happens to be the one that he's with. I don't think that she every understands the reason why Ennis will never fall in love with her, though.

"I don't get you, Ennis del Mar..."

I think our comments crossed here ...

That actually makes sense. You are saying that Cassie never figures it out, right? I would agree with that, too.

[nakymaton]

Yeah, I don't think that Cassie ever figures it out. Ennis worries so much that people look at him and "know," but even a woman that left cheap white wine in his refrigerator didn't figure it out.

[serious crayons]

Yeah, I don't think that Cassie ever figures it out. Ennis worries so much that people look at him and "know," but even a woman that left cheap white wine in his refrigerator didn't figure it out.

Good point! I agree there's no way Cassie knows; she just looks too bewildered in the bus station. And you're right -- if the woman he was putting the blocks to didn't figure it out, why would some random stranger out on the pavement?

[Front-Ranger]

Cassie doesn't figure it out because she desperately wants Ennis to be the "marrying kind"; she pursued him even after it was clear he had ditched her. But people out on the pavement wouldn't have a vested interest and would just be getting a first impression, altho 99% of the people wouldn't be noticing anyone, but paranoid Ennis wouldn't believe that.

[nakymaton]

And Cassie never saw Ennis when he was around Jack. If they saw each other more often, maybe Ennis would stop lighting up like a 10,000 watt lightbulb when he saw Jack... but maybe not.

[jpwagoneer1964]

And Cassie never saw Ennis when he was around Jack. If they saw each other more often, maybe Ennis would stop lighting up like a 10,000 watt lightbulb when he saw Jack... but maybe not.

Most likely not.


Mr. 10,000 watt himself when as we know Jack just arrives.

[opinionista]

Yeah, I think that's it. Either Alma means just what she says, or she suspects he's gay. I think I've heard someone suggest some even deeper meaning to this exchange, but I can't remember what it is.

What I don't get is what Cassie means. What does she think Alma's point is?

I think Alma jr. suspect his dad is different. I'm not sure if she actually think he's gay or queer. As for Cassie, what I understood was that Cassie thought Alma jr meant she wasn't good enough for him. Cassie wanted to marry Ennis, but didn't understand what was going on so she wondered if she was the problem. I don't think it crossed Cassie's mind that Ennis was gay. She wouldn't even dream it. When Alma jr. said "you're good enough", Cassie didn't believe her because of the way she said it. Besides being good enough is not the same thing as saying "you're perfect for him" which I suspect it was what Cassie was expecting to hear. Otherwise why would she bring the topic up. She was looking for reassurance because she wasn't sure about Ennis's feelings for her. That's what I think.

[dly64]

As I was reflecting back on the “dozy embrace”, I started to think about Ennis’ POV. We, the audience, know that this is Jack’s recollection. Whether or not the film negates or supports the suggestion that Ennis holds Jack from behind because he “doesn’t want to see or feel that it Jack he holds” is irrelevant. The only hint I get is from Annie Proulx’s “Getting Movied” essay is when she says (in regards to Ennis) … “…the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man.”

What does BBM represent? IMO, it represents a place without constraints, societal conditions and expectations. The mountains, in general, represent freedom … the points reaching up to the sky. It is the grandeur of BBM that transports Jack and Ennis to another place and time … the feeling of invincibility and invisibility. It is just the two of them and nothing else matters.

Back to this very tender and intimate moment. This is one of the few times where Ennis is comforting Jack, not the other way around. (We see a reflection of this during the lake scene in TS3). Does Ennis see Jack’s vulnerability at that moment? Does Ennis know what it means (to Jack) to feel loved, soothed and held? In addition to Ennis’ parents, Jack is the most important person in his life. Is it that, at that moment, Ennis becomes his parents … the comforting mother who sings a lullaby and the homophobic father who could not bare the thought of holding a man?

Just food for thought.

[Brown Eyes]

Back to the topic of what Cassie means when she tells Alma Jr. that she "gets her point across"... I agree that I think Cassie is stuck on the "good enough" part of the conversation.  My guess is that Cassie thinks that Alma doesn't like her and is nearly insulting her to her face.  I don't think Cassie ever figures Ennis out either.

[Samrim]

<< If they saw each other more often, maybe Ennis would stop lighting up like a 10,000 watt lightbulb when he saw Jack>>.

I love that nakymaton,  Ennis DOES light up everytime he sees his 'friend' (I wanted to use 'lover', or 'beloved' or 'little darlin' there, but like Annie, little is more). Anyway, Alexander's Hephaistion was his 'friend' too in my deeply loved Mary Renault stories.

As an off topic aside I saw 'Alexander'  recently, and enjoyed it a lot (our Mr Preato was behind the camera again I gather), but hated the characterization of Hephaistion as an over madeup catamite. In M.R. he was Alexander's alter ego.

Sorry for the diversion!   

[Front-Ranger]

I think Alma Jr. and her dad were very close. They both didn't speak much but they both were close studies of the human condition. Both of them were very perceptive about others, for the same reason--lack of parental love and attention. Watch and listen as Alma Jr. and Ennis talk in the cab of his truck. They finish each other's sentences, they complete each other's thoughts. Alma Junior is really Ennis Junior. When Alma says "You're good enough" it's really Ennis talking, with the implication "...but you're not Jack."

[dly64]

I think Alma Jr. and her dad were very close. They both didn't speak much but they both were close studies of the human condition. Both of them were very perceptive about others, for the same reason--lack of parental love and attention. Watch and listen as Alma Jr. and Ennis talk in the cab of his truck. They finish each other's sentences, they complete each other's thoughts. Alma Junior is really Ennis Junior. When Alma says "You're good enough" it's really Ennis talking, with the implication "...but you're not Jack."

That's an interesting thought. A quick question .... even though Alma, Jr. and Ennis complete each others' thoughts and sentences, are you also saying that she (Alma, Jr.) did not get the parental love and attention she needed from Ennis (who she is close to)? If you are saying that Ennis did not give his kids the emotional consideration that they craved, I would agree with that. I would also agree that Ennis did the best he could to show his daughters that he loved them. But, as with Jack, Ennis could not express his feelings of affection for anyone and used work as a way to keep those he cared about at bay.  Ennis had a way of unintentionally hurting those who were closest to him.

As for Alma, Jr.’s comment to Cassie …. are you saying that Alma. Jr. knows Ennis is in love with a man (at that moment)? Or that she is just reflecting Ennis’ thought that Cassie is a distraction?

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I believe that Alma Jr. was crazy about her dad and did not get enough attention from him...but what daughter does get all the attention she needs from a dad?? I am thrilled that my daughter and her dad are very close... And Alma Jr. didn't get the attention she wanted from her mom. When Jr. was small, Alma was very attentive, but when the third baby came along, Jr. said Alma and Monroe were "strict with her" to the point that she wanted to move out.

On whether Jr. knows Ennis is in love with Jack, yes, I think she figured it out. She is a smart girl, and because she doesn't talk much she is able to watch, listen, and be perceptive. She has an unspoken bond with her dad. I'm sure she would have felt the vibes between her dad and Jack even during that brief encounter. And that time when she was unceremoniously dumped in her mother's arms while her dad went away, hugging her mom while she was wracked with sobs--if that had happened to me it would have been indelibly marked in my memory.

[dly64]

Yes, I believe that Alma Jr. was crazy about her dad and did not get enough attention from him...but what daughter does get all the attention she needs from a dad?? I am thrilled that my daughter and her dad are very close... And Alma Jr. didn't get the attention she wanted from her mom. When Jr. was small, Alma was very attentive, but when the third baby came along, Jr. said Alma and Monroe were "strict with her" to the point that she wanted to move out.

On whether Jr. knows Ennis is in love with Jack, yes, I think she figured it out. She is a smart girl, and because she doesn't talk much she is able to watch, listen, and be perceptive. She has an unspoken bond with her dad. I'm sure she would have felt the vibes between her dad and Jack even during that brief encounter. And that time when she was unceremoniously dumped in her mother's arms while her dad went away, hugging her mom while she was wracked with sobs--if that had happened to me it would have been indelibly marked in my memory.

I think what you are saying is perceptive. From a psychological standpoint, children who do not get what they need from one parent or another, there is the need to please. I see that with Jack and his father (the SOB OMT). I also see that with Ennis’ kids. Despite his lack of parental support, his daughters (especially junior) put him on a pedestal (it is obvious during the Thanksgiving scene). In addition to when Alma, Jr. was little being held by her mother while she (Alma) fell apart …. the Thanksgiving fiasco would have also been a big clue.

There is also a sense, IMO, that Alma, Jr. is somewhat protective of her dad. Her expression when Ennis drives up with Cassie in the car is one of, “who is this woman and why are you wasting your time?”

[Front-Ranger]

You're so right (do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ) Those are two other good examples. ALso, remember when Ennis and Jr. are talking in the cab and she cuts him off when he starts to say, "That doesn't mean I wouldn't like..." She protects him from having to squeamishly say he loves her, even jumping out of the truck before he can say goodbye. No hugs, no I love you, but he does call her sweetheart. I would have liked to hear little darlin there... 

[dly64]

You're so right (do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ) Those are two other good examples. Also, remember when Ennis and Jr. are talking in the cab and she cuts him off when he starts to say, "That doesn't mean I wouldn't like..." She protects him from having to squeamishly say he loves her, even jumping out of the truck before he can say goodbye. No hugs, no I love you, but he does call her sweetheart. I would have liked to hear little darlin there... 

Believe it or not … you have triggered a thought when you said, “do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ” (By the way, it is Diane).

I think there is significance when Jack introduces himself and Ennis replies by only giving his first name. Jack asks him, “did your folks just stop at Ennis?” and Ennis adds, “del Mar.” After that point, Ennis refers to himself as Ennis del Mar. He says this to Cassie and Lureen. Cassie also says to Ennis, “I don’t get you Ennis del Mar” and OMT says, “Jack used to say …. Ennis del Mar ….” In some ways I see this as symbolizing Ennis as a lost soul (when we first meet him outside Aguirre’s trailer)  … a young boy who has experienced great loss and poverty in his life. A boy who has never experienced true love …. who sees himself as insignificant. When Jack asks him about his last name, he is on the road to self realization. He finds, in Jack, the strength to become himself. Food for thought! 

[stevenedel]

In some ways I see this as symbolizing Ennis as a lost soul (when we first meet him outside Aguirre's trailer) ...  a young boy who has experienced great loss and poverty in his life. A boy who has never experienced true love... who sees himself as insignificant. When Jack asks him about his last name, he is on the road to self realization. He finds, in Jack, the strength to become himself. Food for thought! 

Nice thought. When Jack and Ennis first meet, Ennis is all but alone in the world. His family name means little to him, beacuse he hardly has any family left to fall back on. I like it how the memory of that first meeting is invoked when he meets Cassie. He introduces himself as Ennis, than hesitates for a beat, then adds Del Mar. During the brief silence in between you can almost hear Jack say "You folks just stop at Ennis"?

[Brown Eyes]

You're so right (do U have more of a name, or did yr parents just stop at dly64? ) Those are two other good examples. ALso, remember when Ennis and Jr. are talking in the cab and she cuts him off when he starts to say, "That doesn't mean I wouldn't like..." She protects him from having to squeamishly say he loves her, even jumping out of the truck before he can say goodbye. No hugs, no I love you, but he does call her sweetheart. I would have liked to hear little darlin there... 

Well, I noticed that Ennis calls Alma Jr. "darlin" (I don't think I heard a "little") in the bar after Cassie's tense conversation with Alma Jr.  When Cassie drags Ennis to the dance floor, Ennis says something like "excuse me darlin".

On the topic of Jack and Ennis's self realization... I think this is really important.  If the moment that Aguirre tosses Ennis the watch in the trailer at the beginning is the start of the "timeline" or the "never enough time" dilemma in the movie, then Jack's first verbal introduction with Ennis must be important too.  I like the idea that Jack sort of prods Ennis to expose more of himself, by not letting Ennis get away with only saying his first name.  This brief introduction also immediately introduces the topic of parents with the use of the word "folks" (which obviously becomes extremely important in the story on many levels).

I think Jack taught Ennis an enormous amount about himself and love/intimacy throughout their relationship.  People have noted that Jack's intimate gesture of stroking Ennis's cheek after the Earl story seems to have taught Ennis about this kind of intimacy.  And, it seems that Ennis tries this gesture out himself when he strokes Jenny's cheek at Thanksgiving.  It's cute that Ennis seems to have learned his lesson about including his last name when making introductions following the encounter with Jack... as you note in the Cassie introduction.  I wonder about Ennis's final postcard to Jack (the one that is returned) because he signed it "Ennis Del Mar"  as if Jack would be confused about which Ennis might be writing to him.  But, maybe this had become an inside joke with them over the years.  Maybe when Ennis includes his last name in his introduction with Cassie, this is a clue to the audience that Ennis is thinking (as usual) about Jack.  I think all the men in the bar with black hats are also a clue to Jack being on Ennis's mind here.

[Front-Ranger]

Very perceptive comments. I just have a question about the first one. I thought Ennis said "Xcuse me daughter" when he was being drug to the dance floor.

[fernly]

I think there is significance when Jack introduces himself and Ennis replies by only giving his first name. Jack asks him, “did your folks just stop at Ennis?” and Ennis adds, “del Mar.” After that point, Ennis refers to himself as Ennis del Mar. He says this to Cassie and Lureen. Cassie also says to Ennis, “I don’t get you Ennis del Mar” and OMT says, “Jack used to say …. Ennis del Mar ….” In some ways I see this as symbolizing Ennis as a lost soul (when we first meet him outside Aguirre’s trailer)  … a young boy who has experienced great loss and poverty in his life. A boy who has never experienced true love …. who sees himself as insignificant. When Jack asks him about his last name, he is on the road to self realization. He finds, in Jack, the strength to become himself. Food for thought! 

Nice thought. When Jack and Ennis first meet, Ennis is all but alone in the world. His family name means little to him, beacuse he hardly has any family left to fall back on. I like it how the memory of that first meeting is invoked when he meets Cassie. He introduces himself as Ennis, than hesitates for a beat, then adds Del Mar. During the brief silence in between you can almost hear Jack say "You folks just stop at Ennis"?

  I like the idea that Jack sort of prods Ennis to expose more of himself, by not letting Ennis get away with only saying his first name.  This brief introduction also immediately introduces the topic of parents with the use of the word "folks" (which obviously becomes extremely important in the story on many levels).

I think Jack taught Ennis an enormous amount about himself and love/intimacy throughout their relationship.    It's cute that Ennis seems to have learned his lesson about including his last name when making introductions following the encounter with Jack... as you note in the Cassie introduction.  I wonder about Ennis's final postcard to Jack (the one that is returned) because he signed it "Ennis Del Mar"  as if Jack would be confused about which Ennis might be writing to him.  But, maybe this had become an inside joke with them over the years.  Maybe when Ennis includes his last name in his introduction with Cassie, this is a clue to the audience that Ennis is thinking (as usual) about Jack. 

I love (and agree with) all these layers of meaning. It especially tickles me to think of Ennis and Jack having Ennis using his full name as inside joke - they must have had quite a few over the years (including "Look what I brought" about the beans in the bag).

On the other hand, taking a look at possible sadder interpretations-

First, given Ennis' misery while pushing that pie around, (if that stands for how he was feeling that whole summer/early fall), I wonder if he might have signed that card more formally anyway given the way they might have ended up parting at the lake.

And back to the begining - when Ennis gave just his first name, maybe that can also be seen as him trying to stand separate from what his father left him, not just "del Mar", but that "sea" of pain and homophobia Ennis would end up swimming (drowning?) in the rest of his life. Jack's prodding him to give his full name maybe can be heard as how Jack would, for the rest of Ennis' life, push Ennis (not necessarily overtly, but just by the fact of their relationship) to admit to who he was and what he ought to be dealing with.

[dly64]

On the topic of Jack and Ennis's self realization... I think this is really important.  If the moment that Aguirre tosses Ennis the watch in the trailer at the beginning is the start of the "timeline" or the "never enough time" dilemma in the movie, then Jack's first verbal introduction with Ennis must be important too.  I like the idea that Jack sort of prods Ennis to expose more of himself, by not letting Ennis get away with only saying his first name.  This brief introduction also immediately introduces the topic of parents with the use of the word "folks" (which obviously becomes extremely important in the story on many levels).

I had never thought about the symbolism of the clock … but it makes complete sense to me.

The more I watch this film and talk with all of you the more I notice. Amanda – you said:

I wonder about Ennis's final postcard to Jack (the one that is returned) because he signed it "Ennis Del Mar"  as if Jack would be confused about which Ennis might be writing to him.  But, maybe this had become an inside joke with them over the years.  Maybe when Ennis includes his last name in his introduction with Cassie, this is a clue to the audience that Ennis is thinking (as usual) about Jack.  I think all the men in the bar with black hats are also a clue to Jack being on Ennis's mind here.

I think the “del Mar” goes back to the time when they first met. Again, Ennis becomes more than a boy without a familial name. He has become “Ennis del Mar” … a man who has experienced love and pain and happiness and turmoil. Jack aided in Ennis’ own self discovery.

I was watching the film last night and thought of something else …. (if all of you have noticed this before, than I am sorry for the repetition). I have talked about, and so have many others, the “bookends” of the film. I found another last night. Two things I noticed. When Jack and Ennis first meet:
1.   Both Ennis and Jack are wearing those all important shirts.
2.   Ennis is holding a paper bag with his other shirt in it (not sure what else is in the bag, but definitely a second shirt).
These shirts have become a symbol of their entire relationship …. from the very beginning (when they first meet) until the end (after Jack dies). Again, as reflected in marital vows … “…. ‘till death us do part.”  After Ennis finds the bloody shirts, Jack’s mother places them in a paper bag. This time there are two shirts …. one is his and one is Jack’s. Ennis is no longer just “Ennis”. He has become one with the man he loves. Ennis will indelibly be intertwined with Jack … “the two shall become one” … and this is what happened to them.

[jpwagoneer1964]

We
On the topic of Jack and Ennis's self realization... I think this is really important.  If the moment that Aguirre tosses Ennis the watch in the trailer at the beginning is the start of the "timeline" or the "never enough time" dilemma in the movie, then Jack's first verbal introduction with Ennis must be important too.  I like the idea that Jack sort of prods Ennis to expose more of himself, by not letting Ennis get away with only saying his first name.  This brief introduction also immediately introduces the topic of parents with the use of the word "folks" (which obviously becomes extremely important in the story on many levels).

 

And remember the clock on Jack's dresser, stopped at a quarter to nine, hands together.

[dly64]

Very perceptive comments. I just have a question about the first one. I thought Ennis said "Xcuse me daughter" when he was being drug to the dance floor.

I’m fairly sure he says, “excuse me darlin’ ….” BTW – Cassie’s dragging off Ennis to the dance floor IMO, is Cassie’s way of giving Alma, Jr. the finger. Like, “I’ll show you. He loves me ….” However, ultimately, her attempts to keep Ennis have failed. Alma, Jr. was right from the get go …. Her “daddy” was not the marrying kind and Cassie was not “the one”.

On the other hand, taking a look at possible sadder interpretations-

First, given Ennis' misery while pushing that pie around, (if that stands for how he was feeling that whole summer/early fall), I wonder if he might have signed that card more formally anyway given the way they might have ended up parting at the lake.

Fern – your post overlapped with mine … so I wanted to just go back and reply to a few things you have said.

IMO, I don’t think Ennis signed the card intentionally to be more formal. Again, I think it goes back to the fact that he was no longer just a boy named “Ennis”. He became a man with a name and a history. What we don’t see is the card that Ennis sent Jack when he got the divorce. My guess is he signed that “Ennis del Mar” as well … but we’ll never know for sure.

And back to the beginning - when Ennis gave just his first name, maybe that can also be seen as him trying to stand separate from what his father left him, not just "del Mar", but that "sea" of pain and homophobia Ennis would end up swimming (drowning?) in the rest of his life. Jack's prodding him to give his full name maybe can be heard as how Jack would, for the rest of Ennis' life, push Ennis (not necessarily overtly, but just by the fact of their relationship) to admit to who he was and what he ought to be dealing with.

I never thought of that, but I think there is validity in what you are saying. There was a posting somewhere else that gave a definition of “del Mar”. Although I can’t remember it all … it is important to note that “mar” is defined as “to detract from the perfection or wholeness”. And, going back to the “dozy embrace” … for Jack, “nothing marred” the memory (even though Jack knew that Ennis “did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held” … according to the book and screenplay … which is up for debate).

[dly64]

And remember the clock on Jack's dresser, stopped at a quarter to nine, hands together.

I completely missed the clock metaphors. Something else to watch for!

[Brown Eyes]

I’m fairly sure he says, “excuse me darlin’ ….” BTW – Cassie’s dragging off Ennis to the dance floor IMO, is Cassie’s way of giving Alma, Jr. the finger. Like, “I’ll show you. He loves me ….” However, ultimately, her attempts to keep Ennis have failed. Alma, Jr. was right from the get go …. Her “daddy” was not the marrying kind and Cassie was not “the one”.

Well, I just consulted the STS book and there's nothing in this version of the published screenplay to help with what Ennis says here.  In the published screenplay it looks like Ennis wasn't supposed to say anything to Alma Jr. as he heads to the dance floor with Cassie (it just says that he's supposed to look at Alma Jr.).  So, it seems that whatever Ennis says here was improvised maybe.  I've always heard "darlin" (but maybe it's because I've really been listening hard for the appearance of that word somewhere in the movie), but it seems possible that he says "daughter" (as Lee hears it).  Maybe I'll watch that scene tonight with the subtitles on (as if that really helps much).
 

[Ellemeno]

I?m fairly sure he says, ?excuse me darlin?

That's what I hear.

[dly64]

I checked the subtitles (and although that doesn't mean it is the end all ...) it says:

"Excuse me darlin' ..."

[ekeby]

There was a posting somewhere else that gave a definition of “del Mar”. Although I can’t remember it all … it is important to note that “mar” is defined as “to detract from the perfection or wholeness”.

"del mar" is a contraction of "de la mar", Spanish for "of [or from] the sea". I took it to be an old Spanish name, because Annie Proulx says in an interview somewhere that the people she's writing about are "autochthones", which I had to look up, not being familiar with the word. It means an "original or indigenous inhabitant of a place; an aborigine". As the Spanish were the first European settlers in the American west, I drew that conclusion. Does someone have a different theory?

[dly64]

"del mar" is a contraction of "de la mar", Spanish for "of [or from] the sea". I took it to be an old Spanish name, because Annie Proulx says in an interview somewhere that the people she's writing about are "autochthones", which I had to look up, not being familiar with the word. It means an "original or indigenous inhabitant of a place; an aborigine". As the Spanish were the first European settlers in the American west, I drew that conclusion. Does someone have a different theory?

Where did you find this information? That's great! I know I found something on "Twist" and I posted it somewhere else on this board. "Twist" has a distinct meaning ... that's for sure! 

[ekeby]

Where did you find this information? That's great! I know I found something on "Twist" and I posted it somewhere else on this board. "Twist" has a distinct meaning ... that's for sure! 

I speak Spanish, though it's not my first language. I went to school in Mexico City for a couple years in the 60s. That's when/where I had my BBM experience with a guy from Texas. The Proulx interview I read (I finally found it again) was from a Jackson Hole, Wyoming site:
<http://www.planetjh.com/testa_2005_12_07_proulx.html>

[opinionista]

"del mar" is a contraction of "de la mar", Spanish for "of [or from] the sea". I took it to be an old Spanish name, because Annie Proulx says in an interview somewhere that the people she's writing about are "autochthones", which I had to look up, not being familiar with the word. It means an "original or indigenous inhabitant of a place; an aborigine". As the Spanish were the first European settlers in the American west, I drew that conclusion. Does someone have a different theory?

Actually, del Mar is not a contraction of de la mar. It's just another way of putting it.  El mar o la mar are both correct. So you can either say del mar o de la mar. I, for one, never ever refer to the sea as la mar, I call it el mar.  "La mar" used to be a spanish fishermen's slang, because in Spanish when you're going sailing and you want to be poetic about it, you say "hacerse a la mar". But "la mar" is now so widespread that the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language accepted it as a correct way to refer to the sea. However when you speak in plural it's wrong to say las mares. The correct way is LOS mares. And when you refer to a particular sea, for example The Red Sea or The Caribbean Sea, you say El Mar Rojo or El Mar Caribe, never La Mar Roja o La Mar Caribe, that's wrong.

Also, Del mar is a spanish last name (though not very common) as well as a woman's middle name. For example: Maria del Mar or Rosa del Mar.

[ekeby]

Actually, del Mar is not a contraction of de la mar.
Also, Del mar is a spanish last name (though not very common) as well as a woman's middle name. For example: Maria del Mar or Rosa del Mar.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking. A lot of my Spanish comes from the street--I've never heard anyone educated say la mar, and I myself use el mar. But, evidently, I also use the expression de la mar, because it just popped out.  Re the name--thanks for confirming that it is a real name. I was wondering, never having heard it. There is an English (French?) equivalent, I think, as in the poet Walter de la Mare, whose family name, I read now, was previously spelled Delamare.

[opinionista]

Sorry, I wasn't thinking.

No need to apologize,     it's a common mistake. Spanish is spoken uin 20 countries and each has their own kind of Spanish, so don't worry. De la Mare sounds italian but it could be portuguese too or French, i don't know.

[ekeby]

Spanish is spoken uin 20 countries and each has their own kind of Spanish, so don't worry.

I was watching La Virgen de los Sicarios (Our Lady of the Assassins) again last night, a movie I really, really like. But between the slang and the accents, much of the dialog is incomprehensible to me. I replayed some scenes over and over trying to get certain words, but in many cases, couldn't, even with a translation. It's annoying, knowing you're missing subtle nuances in a fine film . . .

[JT]

Where did you find this information? That's great! I know I found something on "Twist" and I posted it somewhere else on this board. "Twist" has a distinct meaning ... that's for sure! 

I've read somewhere that Ennis Del Mar means "island of the sea", but what does Jack Twist means?  I had a hard time searching for that thread.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I've read somewhere that Ennis Del Mar means "island of the sea", but what does Jack Twist means?  I had a hard time searching for that thread.

It has to do with rear end muscles needed for bull ridding, I think Anne Proiux writes aout it in "Getting Movied".

[JT]

Oh!  That make sense.  LOL

[dly64]

I've read somewhere that Ennis Del Mar means "island of the sea", but what does Jack Twist means?  I had a hard time searching for that thread.

Here is a quote from an interview with Jake Gyllenhaal:

She (Annie Proulx) wrote me a note with a limited edition copy of ‘Close Range,’ which is the book that ‘Brokeback Mountain,’ the short story, is in. And in it she said that Jack Twist refers to, ‘twist’ refers to the strength of thighs and butt muscles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull.

JP - you were right on!

[JT]

Thanks, Diane!  That satisfy my curiousity.

[dly64]

I had posted both of these notes earlier in this thread. We never discussed them, so I am reviving these to hear others’ POV.

first note:

I was watching the film last night and thought of something else …. (if all of you have noticed this before, than I am sorry for the repetition). I have talked about, and so have many others, the “bookends” of the film. I found another last night. Two things I noticed. When Jack and Ennis first meet:
1.   Both Ennis and Jack are wearing those all important shirts.
2.   Ennis is holding a paper bag with his other shirt in it (not sure what else is in the bag, but definitely a second shirt).
These shirts have become a symbol of their entire relationship …. from the very beginning (when they first meet) until the end (after Jack dies). Again, as reflected in marital vows … “…. ‘till death us do part.”  After Ennis finds the bloody shirts, Jack’s mother places them in a paper bag. This time there are two shirts …. one is his and one is Jack’s. Ennis is no longer just “Ennis”. He has become one with the man he loves. Ennis will indelibly be intertwined with Jack … “the two shall become one” … and this is what happened to them.

second note:

As I was reflecting back on the “dozy embrace”, I started to think about Ennis’ POV. We, the audience, know that this is Jack’s recollection. Whether or not the film negates or supports the suggestion that Ennis holds Jack from behind because he “doesn’t want to see or feel that it Jack he holds” is irrelevant. The only hint I get is from Annie Proulx’s “Getting Movied” essay is when she says (in regards to Ennis) … “…the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man.”

What does BBM represent? IMO, it represents a place without constraints, societal conditions and expectations. The mountains, in general, represent freedom … the points reaching up to the sky. It is the grandeur of BBM that transports Jack and Ennis to another place and time … the feeling of invincibility and invisibility. It is just the two of them and nothing else matters.

Back to this very tender and intimate moment. This is one of the few times where Ennis is comforting Jack, not the other way around. (We see a reflection of this during the lake scene in TS3). Does Ennis see Jack’s vulnerability at that moment? Does Ennis know what it means (to Jack) to feel loved, soothed and held? In addition to Ennis’ parents, Jack is the most important person in his life. Is it that, at that moment, Ennis becomes his own parents … the comforting mother who sings a lullaby and the homophobic father who could not bare the thought of holding a man?

Just food for thought.

[ekeby]

These shirts have become a symbol of their entire relationship …. 

Is it that, at that moment, Ennis becomes his own parents … the comforting mother who sings a lullaby and the homophobic father who could not bare the thought of holding a man?

Just food for thought.

Absolutely. (I said it up in the thread somewhere.) Ennis is demonstrating a paternal, caretaking love with that embrace. He's emulating what his mother did for him. It is a slice of tranquil domesticity that they never achieve in any other way or place. No two ways about it: if they are not on BBM, they don't exist as a couple. Jack says as much in the argument preceding the embrace.

What I find interesting about the shirt analogy is that when Ennis takes the shirts from Jack's room, he is concealing his shirt within Jack's. Ennis even shifts the shirt(s) out of the father's view as he comes back into the kitchen. There is a pause when the mother puts them in the bag, as if she is feeling through Jack's shirt for the second shirt. If the shirts symbolize their relationship, Ennis is still attempting to conceal the depth of his relationship with Jack. At that moment, however, it looks to me as if Ennis realizes that the mother understands the significance of the shirts and is empathetic to his situation. It is the only acknowledgement of the truth with another human being, and it moves him to tears.

[dly64]

What I find interesting about the shirt analogy is that when Ennis takes the shirts from Jack's room, he is concealing his shirt within Jack's. Ennis even shifts the shirt(s) out of the father's view as he comes back into the kitchen. There is a pause when the mother puts them in the bag, as if she is feeling through Jack's shirt for the second shirt. If the shirts symbolize their relationship, Ennis is still attempting to conceal the depth of his relationship with Jack. At that moment, however, it looks to me as if Ennis realizes that the mother understands the significance of the shirts and is empathetic to his situation. It is the only acknowledgement of the truth with another human being, and it moves him to tears.

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Ennis’ shifting the shirts away from OMT. The way I interpret this is that Ennis is fully aware of the abusive and tense relationship between Jack and his father. It is almost as if he is protecting Jack from OMT. He holds the shirts out to Jack’s empathetic mother who, almost ceremoniously, puts the shirts in the bag. IMO, Mrs. Twist invited Ennis to go to Jack’s room because she knew the shirts were there. She knew the importance of those shirts.

I love this quote from Roger Ebert (yes, he’s a critic. He is one, however, whose opinion I respect):

A closing scene involving a visit by Ennis to Jack's parents is heartbreaking in what is said, and not said, about their world. A look around Jack's childhood bedroom suggests what he overcame to make room for his feelings.

[JT]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Ennis’ shifting the shirts away from OMT. The way I interpret this is that Ennis is fully aware of the abusive and tense relationship between Jack and his father. It is almost as if he is protecting Jack from OMT. He holds the shirts out to Jack’s empathetic mother who, almost ceremoniously, puts the shirts in the bag. IMO, Mrs. Twist invited Ennis to go to Jack’s room because she knew the shirts were there. She knew the importance of those shirts.

I love this quote from Roger Ebert (yes, he’s a critic. He is one, however, whose opinion I respect):

A closing scene involving a visit by Ennis to Jack's parents is heartbreaking in what is said, and not said, about their world. A look around Jack's childhood bedroom suggests what he overcame to make room for his feelings.

I agree with you regarding Ennis protecting the shirts from OMT.  And yes, Mrs. Twist understands well about their relationship when she puts her hand on Ennis's shoulder, and she gives an approval nod when Ennis hands her the shirts to be put into the bag.

Yes I did noticed but never mentioned that the two shirts at the end of the movie are the same two shirt each men wear as they first appear.  Very interesting indeed.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I agree with you regarding Ennis protecting the shirts from OMT.  And yes, Mrs. Twist understands well about their relationship when she puts her hand on Ennis's shoulder, and she gives an approval nod when Ennis hands her the shirts to be put into the bag.

Yes I did noticed but never mentioned that the two shirts at the end of the movie are the same two shirt each men wear as they first appear.  Very interesting indeed.

And of course Jack was wearing his FNIT and Ennis SNIT.

[Brown Eyes]

And of course Jack was wearing his FNIT and Ennis SNIT.

Yeah, that's really interesting that they're the same two shirts from the very beginning of the movie.  I had noticed that they were Jack's shirt from TS1 and Ennis's shirt from TS2.  So, here's a question (or two or three).  Does this maybe suggest that the interaction between the boys outside Aguirre's trailer was "love at first sight"... and these shirts are meant to be visual/ prop clues about this?  Or,  maybe are we supposed to think that Jack fell in love with Ennis during TS1 (since he's wearing the magic shirt here) and Ennis fell in love during TS2 (since similarly, he's wearing his magic shirt here)?  The first option is not really compatible with options two and three.

On the topic of shirts... I've always wondered about Alma when she's hanging the laudry on the line in the really strong wind (Jack!!!) and sees Ennis driving down the road...  She's holding onto the shirt that Ennis wore during TS1.  What are we supposed to make of that?

[nakymaton]

I think that we see Jack and Ennis in The Shirts at first in hopes that we'll remember those exact shirts at the end of the movie.

And I think it's a bit of a warning sign that, when Alma is being all domestic and everything, she's washing the shirt that Ennis was wearing when he lost his virginity. And she doesn't have a clue.

[dly64]

Yeah, that's really interesting that they're the same two shirts from the very beginning of the movie.  I had noticed that they were Jack's shirt from TS1 and Ennis's shirt from TS2.  So, here's a question (or two or three).  Does this maybe suggest that the interaction between the boys outside Aguirre's trailer was "love at first sight"... and these shirts are meant to be visual/ prop clues about this?  Or,  maybe are we supposed to think that Jack fell in love with Ennis during TS1 (since he's wearing the magic shirt here) and Ennis fell in love during TS2 (since similarly, he's wearing his magic shirt here)?  The first option is not really compatible with options two and three.

On the topic of shirts... I've always wondered about Alma when she's hanging the laudry on the line in the really strong wind (Jack!!!) and sees Ennis driving down the road...  She's holding onto the shirt that Ennis wore during TS1.  What are we supposed to make of that?

I think it is an interesting observation about the possibility of Jack loving Ennis in TS1 and vice versa in TS2 as symbolized by the all-important shirts. Being the romantic that I am, I tend to land on the side of  “love at first sight” … albeit not in the conventional way. They were both checking each other out immediately.

It’s interesting that you mention Alma doing the laundry and taking the shirt that Ennis wore on BBM off of the line. It is a contrast; too, that she is doing the laundry in a depressed shack while Jack did the laundry in the open air and freedom of the mountains. Jack was completely nude (free of inhibitions) and Alma was in layers. Alma was also washing Ennis’ underwear, but Ennis didn’t even have underwear on BBM! Hmmmm….

[dly64]

And I think it's a bit of a warning sign that, when Alma is being all domestic and everything, she's washing the shirt that Ennis was wearing when he lost his virginity. And she doesn't have a clue.

Kick, Mel!! I never even thought of that!! WHOA! Love it!

[JT]

Yeah, that's really interesting that they're the same two shirts from the very beginning of the movie.  I had noticed that they were Jack's shirt from TS1 and Ennis's shirt from TS2.  So, here's a question (or two or three).  Does this maybe suggest that the interaction between the boys outside Aguirre's trailer was "love at first sight"... and these shirts are meant to be visual/ prop clues about this?  Or,  maybe are we supposed to think that Jack fell in love with Ennis during TS1 (since he's wearing the magic shirt here) and Ennis fell in love during TS2 (since similarly, he's wearing his magic shirt here)?  The first option is not really compatible with options two and three.

On the topic of shirts... I've always wondered about Alma when she's hanging the laudry on the line in the really strong wind (Jack!!!) and sees Ennis driving down the road...  She's holding onto the shirt that Ennis wore during TS1.  What are we supposed to make of that?

I think for Jack, it's love at first sight, but Ennis gradually falls in love Jack up on BBM. 

[2robots4u]

JT uses OMT as in "Ennis protecting the shirts from OMT".
jpwagonner says "Jack was wearing his FNIT and Ennis SNIT".

Please don't think me obtuse, but what does OMT, FNIT, and SNIT mean?
I need to know so I can understand what these shirts are all about
Thanks..Doug

[serious crayons]

JT uses OMT as in "Ennis protecting the shirts from OMT".
jpwagonner says "Jack was wearing his FNIT and Ennis SNIT".

Please don't think me obtuse, but what does OMT, FNIT, and SNIT mean?
I need to know so I can understand what these shirts are all about
Thanks..Doug

Doug, OMT is Old Man Twist. FNIT and SNIT are First and Second Nights in Tent (also known as TS1 and TS2, for Tent Scenes 1 and 2).

Here's a link to a glossary that Goadra started not long ago to keep track of useful BBM terms.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3362.msg60845#msg60845

[Brown Eyes]

Hey there Friends,

I'm like Diane, I like to believe it was love at first sight (even if it was almost subconscious... or completely inarticulate for Ennis at first).  I think those shirts are meant to be such huge symbols in the film that (along with the extremely long amount of time we spend watching the boys silently interact during the opening) they must mean something even at this early stage.  I think the layering issue is really interesting.  (Katherine, I know this is a topic you're fond of...  Didn't you once suggest that the fewer the layers of clothing the more connected the boys feel to one another, or the more emotionally open a character is being at a given time?)  In this discussion, it really does seem important to note how many layers poor, clueless Alma is wearing in contrast to Jack on the mountain.  But, layering also seems important in the opening interaction between Ennis and Jack.  Jack already has one layer less of clothing on... His blue shirt is his outer layer and Ennis has his jacket on over his magic shirt.  This trend has been noted elsewhere... that Jack is usually positioned one step ahead of Ennis in many regards (literally... he's in the front during the herding, he leads Ennis to the bar, he makes the first move, etc.) and this often corresponds to his state of dress and/ or undress in comparison to Ennis.  It never occured to me, until just now, to take note of this trend during these very beginning moments of the film. 

[Penthesilea]

Oh my, what should I say? I spent the last hour (or more) to read this whole thread. All 8 pages and 114 postings.
The first pages about the dozy embrace made me cry (again). All of you found so beautiful words to describe the mood and the importance of the flashback.

I feel sorry I missed this thread until now. I know I'm late and I can't get into every side-topic I would like to, but I'll give you my thoughts about the flashback anyway.


The flashback scene itself is simply beautiful and touching. But it is the placing in the movie that makes it so wistful and incredibly sad. Usually I'm already in tears at this point, but the flashback really puts me over the edge and makes me sob heavily.

And like the dozy embrace is made sad by the encircling lake scene, it's the same vice verca: the lake scene is even more sad and tragic because of the contrast to the dozy embrace. They entail and intensify one another. So I think it's perfectly placed in the movie.

All of you already had great ideas about it, to which I can only agree: the embrace from behind, the spooning, has something protective in it.

The dozy embrace makes the two persons one, like their shadows. "His other half" They simply belong together. We already know it, but in the flashback it is accumulated.


And for the flaw/no flaw discussion: I agree with the person who said that the filmmakers contradicted Proulx' expression "would not embrace him face to face because he didn't want to know or see it was a man he was holding" (paraphrasing here). Ennis looks at Jack as direct as he can from behind.  And it was contradicted by previous scenes, too.

[Rutella]

I was thinking about the 'not wanting to embrace face to face' bit yesterday and I don't know if thats not just Jack's fear. It says "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held"  But this 'knowledge' is Jack's opinion, and may not be really true, just as when Ennis "knew it was the tire iron" after talking to OMT that doesn't mean for definate that it was, just that in Ennis's head he is certain that it is. And with the dozy embrace, it makes sense that as Jack's dream of the sweet life with Ennis becomes less and less likely, Jack might become more and more convinced that Ennis was refusing to face him.
 
I don't know if this is likely or anything but it's what I got to thinking the other day. And I guess it's another example of the "clear space between what he knew and what he tried to believe"

[serious crayons]

Interesting idea, Rutella! That makes a lot of sense. And when I think of it that way, it fits better into the story.

[Brown Eyes]

Rutella, that really is an interesting way to explain that part of the story (which always seems unsatisfying to me).  But, it is interesting to think of all of these details about the movie/story as being skewed based on which character's perspective is being represented.  I think the dozy embrace in the movie (and in the story) is one moment that is purely understood through Jack's perspective.  I really love the idea that he's being a little paranoid about Ennis's feelings (in the story).  I wonder if the sort of odd detail in the film... of Ennis walking away and riding away without looking back is a function of Jack remembering the scene 20 years later.  Maybe Ennis really did look back or maybe there was more of an interaction as he departed... but the embrace stands out at the only thing for Jack.

[dly64]

I was thinking about the 'not wanting to embrace face to face' bit yesterday and I don't know if thats not just Jack's fear. It says "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held"  But this 'knowledge' is Jack's opinion, and may not be really true, just as when Ennis "knew it was the tire iron" after talking to OMT that doesn't mean for definate that it was, just that in Ennis's head he is certain that it is. And with the dozy embrace, it makes sense that as Jack's dream of the sweet life with Ennis becomes less and less likely, Jack might become more and more convinced that Ennis was refusing to face him.
 
I don't know if this is likely or anything but it's what I got to thinking the other day. And I guess it's another example of the "clear space between what he knew and what he tried to believe"

As was already stated … I never thought of that angle, either. But, I like it. After all, it is Jack’s memory. IMO, the “dozy embrace” is the most beautifully filmed sequence in the entire movie. It evokes a dream-like state. It as if we, the audience, are Jack being held by Ennis. It is lovely and intimate. There are times I feel like a voyeur and that I am intruding on a very private interaction. Ironically, I don’t feel that way in TS1, TS2, or the motel scene. It is this scene and TS3 where I experience this feeling the most. Maybe it’s because the “dozy embrace” and TS3 reflect a vulnerability that is not present anywhere else.

[JT]

If I have choose one scene as a favorite, I think it would be that "dozy embrace" scene.  IMO I think it was the sweetest and truest moment in the entire movie.  And yes, showing it at that moment is particularly heart-breaking.

[JT]

Oh my, what should I say? I spent the last hour (or more) to read this whole thread. All 8 pages and 114 postings.
The first pages about the dozy embrace made me cry (again). All of you found so beautiful words to describe the mood and the importance of the flashback.

I feel sorry I missed this thread until now. I know I'm late and I can't get into every side-topic I would like to, but I'll give you my thoughts about the flashback anyway.


The flashback scene itself is simply beautiful and touching. But it is the placing in the movie that makes it so wistful and incredibly sad. Usually I'm already in tears at this point, but the flashback really puts me over the edge and makes me sob heavily.

And like the dozy embrace is made sad by the encircling lake scene, it's the same vice verca: the lake scene is even more sad and tragic because of the contrast to the dozy embrace. They entail and intensify one another. So I think it's perfectly placed in the movie.

All of you already had great ideas about it, to which I can only agree: the embrace from behind, the spooning, has something protective in it.

The dozy embrace makes the two persons one, like their shadows. "His other half" They simply belong together. We already know it, but in the flashback it is accumulated.


And for the flaw/no flaw discussion: I agree with the person who said that the filmmakers contradicted Proulx' expression "would not embrace him face to face because he didn't want to know or see it was a man he was holding" (paraphrasing here). Ennis looks at Jack as direct as he can from behind.  And it was contradicted by previous scenes, too.

Isn't it wonderful to read what others are thinking regarding that simple scene?  It was very emotional for me as well when I read what others have written.  I agree 100% that the "dozy embrace" was inserted perfectly into that spot.  A moment of true happiness wedged between a corroding sea of sadness.

[Andrew]

This topic and this forum - every now and then I step back and realize how lucky I am I found them, and all of you!
 
How quirky and lonely I might feel without knowing all these kindred spirits were here!  And the differences we express only enhance this feeling, since it shows none of us are losing any of our precious individuality in this splendid group swim.  There's not a person who has contributed here who has not said at least one thing that resonates, or brings me back into the world of my first responses to these characters.  I want to acknowledge every one of you who has given me that thrill but what would be the point?

I've been thinking about comments close to the head of this topic, from those who have a problem with the line in the story about Ennis being unwilling to face Jack.  Katherine said, 'I am one of those who considers it flawed in the story -- and, I guess, the screenplay -- because of that "Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds" line.'  And Amanda agreed.

An important word in Proulx's sentence for me has always been the adverb:  "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face..."  This is Jack looking back on the whole history of their times together: "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory..."  In all their years this is the single moment of artless, charmed happiness...yet this was at a very early stage of their love before they had any inkling of what it would become over the years.  Their love on Brokeback had all the perfection of the newborn and all the newborn's lacks, and Jack is relishing the one though aware of the other, from the vantage of years.  Denial was still possible on Brokeback - you had only not to look at what you were doing!  We are not told in the story how long after their first pairing this embrace was, but IF they did embrace face to face that first summer at a time when it was light enough to see each other's faces, the dozy embrace was a waystation to that daylit embrace.  What a dimension Proulx adds to the story with her deliberate mystery!  She does not say whether they kissed on Brokeback, or kissed when it was light.  What we are allowed to see is always set off against what we are not.

At the reunion kiss, in broad daylight, it is obvious that Ennis' then has vanished forever.  'Easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers...'  Even this line will imply to some of us that Ennis and Jack are thrown back into what was so familiar to them from Brokeback, to others that they find themselves compelled to do what they had never done before.

I am one of those who feels the reunion kiss happened the way it did partly because both Jack and Ennis had become unguarded about public displays of love because of their family life in the years between.  Both had some affection for their wives, and Ennis had a powerful affection for his daughters, and they would have had no reason to be inhibited about the occasional public kiss.  Ennis had progressed in the knowledge of how sexual feeling and family affection can coexist towards a partner.  When Ennis and Jack began to hug each other publicly they were doing something rare but socially acceptable between friends who had not seen each other for years.  Their experiences with their wives and children made the way from the hug to the public kiss short and easy...and ravenous hunger did the rest.

Getting back to the then - one of the reasons we have not focused on it before is that the word is not carried over to the screenplay instructional comment.  The screenplay says, 'even though he knows that Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds'.  This makes the realization concurrent with the embrace itself, whereas in the story the realization comes years later.  You could say that the film softens Annie's antisentimental attitude, because it shows the young Jack in a state of pure bliss without any 'realization', but you could also say that the film visually restores (with Jack's contrasted faces) some of the contrast of past and present which were in the story but lost in the screenplay comment.

[serious crayons]

An important word in Proulx's sentence for me has always been the adverb:  "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face..." 

... Getting back to the then - one of the reasons we have not focused on it before is that the word is not carried over to the screenplay instructional comment.  The screenplay says, 'even though he knows that Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds'. 

Nice post, Andrew. You know, I never thought hard enough about that "then." I still don't like the line much, but that does help mitigate its flaws a little. It implies, albeit too subtly for my taste, that he got over that hangup at some later point.

[dly64]

An important word in Proulx's sentence for me has always been the adverb:  "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face..."  This is Jack looking back on the whole history of their times together: "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory..."  In all their years this is the single moment of artless, charmed happiness...yet this was at a very early stage of their love before they had any inkling of what it would become over the years.  Their love on Brokeback had all the perfection of the newborn and all the newborn's lacks, and Jack is relishing the one though aware of the other, from the vantage of years.  Denial was still possible on Brokeback - you had only not to look at what you were doing!  We are not told in the story how long after their first pairing this embrace was, but IF they did embrace face to face that first summer at a time when it was light enough to see each other's faces, the dozy embrace was a waystation to that daylit embrace.  What a dimension Proulx adds to the story with her deliberate mystery!  She does not say whether they kissed on Brokeback, or kissed when it was light.  What we are allowed to see is always set off against what we are not.

Andrew – what a great and thoughtful post! You, along with Rutella, have given me a few different angles to consider. I always saw the line about Ennis’ inability to embrace Jack face to face to be taken theoretically versus literally. In Ennis’ mind, the idea that he was holding a man was incompatible with the teachings of his father and what he was taught to believe. However, Rutella brings up the point that we see this scene in Jack’s POV. In other words, it is Jack’s recollection of that moment that we are privy to. And Jack perceives Ennis’ embrace from behind as a product of Ennis’ homophobia. But I like what you say also. Certainly I am not as confident in my interpretation as I had been previously. Thanks for the insight!

[Front-Ranger]

Andrew, did U used to be littledarlin? Just wonderin.

O my God. I was travelling home tonite, and I heard the song which I fanticize to be the lullaby that Heath hums in the Dozy Embrace!! Yes, I was driving home with the full Harvest moon rising off my left shoulder, listening to NPR, and I heard a haunting song, performed by Nora Guthrie and the Klezmatics, of her father, Woodie Guthrie's favorite lullaby to his childen. No one knows what song Ennis was humming then (who knows, it could have been "Waltzing Matillda") but this is just my idea. Listen to it, and you'll be captivated:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5627147

[Andrew]

No, FR, it sounds like that Andrew, littledarlin (from Chicago) is just busy in his personal life - that's what he said in his last post.  I'm sure he'll use the same moniker when he gets back, which I hope will be soon.  I'm Andrew from Boston.
I just listened to that whole broadcast.  The lullaby comes at the end, and it's well worth waiting for.  The second song, the one just before it, is great too.  The Klezmatics did really come up with tunes which are at one with the words.  I could easily imagine Ennis' mother humming the refrain of that lullaby.

[dly64]

O my God. I was travelling home tonite, and I heard the song which I fanticize to be the lullaby that Heath hums in the Dozy Embrace!! Yes, I was driving home with the full Harvest moon rising off my left shoulder, listening to NPR, and I heard a haunting song, performed by Nora Guthrie and the Klezmatics, of her father, Woodie Guthrie's favorite lullaby to his childen. No one knows what song Ennis was humming then (who knows, it could have been "Waltzing Matillda") but this is just my idea. Listen to it, and you'll be captivated:

Beautiful! I listened to it several times and absolutely loved it! How apropos this lullaby would have been during the “dozy embrace.”  It only solidifies that dream-like state that is evoked at that moment. I don’t think I’ll ever watch that scene again without thinking about that song. Too bad we don’t know for sure what Ennis is humming … or maybe it’s a good thing? Then we can imagine what he is humming … this lullaby being one. Thanks for sharing this!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Thank you for the link to this story, I am listening to the story as I write.

I appreciated the placement of the dozy embrace in the story and film as you see Ennis embracing him from behind in one, and not long after that he in embracing the shirts, face to face, but they are now empty, too late late, Ennis.

"Gonna get through this world" is now playing. I think I will need to get this cd.

In her essay in the story the screenplay book, Proulx says when she was writing the Dozy Embrace sceen, she listened to Pat Methany and Charlie Hadden's "Spiritual" from their 1996 cd "Beyond the Missouri Sky" a haunting and sad piece of music. I have to play it from time to time to block out the world.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

"Heddy Down" yes, I could hear those words comming from his lips, that is a good call Front Ranger!

[Front-Ranger]

I also wonder if the scene where Ennis is comforting the infant Jennie is a "bookend" to the dozy embrace. There are things that are similar, the way he's rocking her, and perhaps he's murmuring to her. The hand movements are similar. But she is facing towards him, and it would have been awkward the other way around. To me, it is a reminder that we all carry within us the memory of being small, lonely, and vulnerable, and of being held and comforted by a loving parent. Somewhere along the way of growing up we lose that reassuring feeling, only to find it again if/when we meet our true love.

Also, I'm glad some people listened to the lullaby! Isn't it incredible??

[Andrew]

Another bookend is the very next scene, in which Alma " comes and sits behind Ennis, wraps her skinny arms around him."  Ennis is exhausted, his eyes closed like Jack's in the dozy scene, asleep-awake.  In this scene Alma is talking of their moving away, back into town, whereas Ennis in the dozy scene is thinking of getting up to the sheep.  The similarity is meant to point up all the contrasts between Riverton and the mountain, between the relationship with Alma and the relationship with Jack.

[Front-Ranger]

Thank you for pointing that out! I never saw that scene that way before, but you're right. One thing that struck me about that scene is that everything is a shade of brown. There is a little bit of blue or green in Alma's gown but not much. And there are a lot of patterns, which someone has pointed out tend to underscore the feelings of ambivalence in the scene.

[dly64]

Another bookend is the very next scene, in which Alma " comes and sits behind Ennis, wraps her skinny arms around him."  Ennis is exhausted, his eyes closed like Jack's in the dozy scene, asleep-awake.  In this scene Alma is talking of their moving away, back into town, whereas Ennis in the dozy scene is thinking of getting up to the sheep.  The similarity is meant to point up all the contrasts between Riverton and the mountain, between the relationship with Alma and the relationship with Jack.

I think it is interesting to note in this scene that Alma mentions to Ennis that, “you don’t want it to be so lonely ….” Ennis’ reaction, albeit subtle, is one in which he is thinking of Jack … he is “lonely” for Jack.  It is no coincidence that he flips Alma over and gets her in the “back door.” Similarly, Jack’s face reflects his sadness when he is dancing with Lureen and the song says … “I know sometimes you felt so lonely. Sometimes you felt so sad and blue  ….”  It is Ennis he is thinking about at that moment.

To me, it is a reminder that we all carry within us the memory of being small, lonely, and vulnerable, and of being held and comforted by a loving parent. Somewhere along the way of growing up we lose that reassuring feeling, only to find it again if/when we meet our true love.

Beautifully said. I couldn’t agree more.

Also, I'm glad some people listened to the lullaby! Isn't it incredible??

LOVE IT!! I actually went on to Amazon to buy it. It’s simply to beautiful to forget about it later.

[Front-Ranger]

No, FR, it sounds like that Andrew, littledarlin (from Chicago) is just busy in his personal life - that's what he said in his last post.  I'm sure he'll use the same moniker when he gets back, which I hope will be soon.  I'm Andrew from Boston.

Do you know how we can get Chicago Andrew to come back in time for his birthday???

[Katie77]

This topic and this forum - every now and then I step back and realize how lucky I am I found them, and all of you!
 


An important word in Proulx's sentence for me has always been the adverb:  "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face..."  This is Jack looking back on the whole history of their times together: "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory..."  In all their years this is the single moment of artless, charmed happiness...yet this was at a very early stage of their love before they had any inkling of what it would become over the years.  Their love on Brokeback had all the perfection of the newborn and all the newborn's lacks, and Jack is relishing the one though aware of the other, from the vantage of years.  Denial was still possible on Brokeback - you had only not to look at what you were doing!  We are not told in the story how long after their first pairing this embrace was, but IF they did embrace face to face that first summer at a time when it was light enough to see each other's faces, the dozy embrace was a waystation to that daylit embrace.  What a dimension Proulx adds to the story with her deliberate mystery!  She does not say whether they kissed on Brokeback, or kissed when it was light.  What we are allowed to see is always set off against what we are not.

You are sooooooo right there Andrew....the word "then" is very important, because it reflects that "then" he didnt hug him face to face as a before and after....after, being the time when he did hug him face to face......it shows how far and  how much the affection changed, and how Ennis's shyness did disappear "afterwards".....

The dozy embrace, is him remembering the beginning of their love story, at a time when it was about to end.....and it is all the more significant because it is the last time we see them together.....

[Rutella]

One of the things that really breaks my heart with the dozy embrace is suddenly seeing how young they are on Brokeback. Every time I watch it I never think of them as looking especially young at the beginning and then as they get older I don't really notice it ('cept for the tache). Then boom, flashback scene and I see all that hope and youth and I burst into tears near on every time.   

[dly64]

One of the things that really breaks my heart with the dozy embrace is suddenly seeing how young they are on Brokeback.

It is interesting that you mention that point. Although this didn't make it into the movie (it would have been hard to depict), Ennis begins dreaming about Jack (after Jack has died). Ennis sees Jack as he (Jack) was when they first met on BBM. They had youth and freedom. They didn’t have all of those years of heartbreak. It was just the two of them, and nothing else mattered. The “dozy embrace” is a sequence that is almost dreamlike. It dares to take us into a very private and intimate moment. We are reminded of what they had and what they could have had … a “sweet life.”

[serious crayons]

Although this didn't make it into the movie (it would have been hard to depict), Ennis begins dreaming about Jack (after Jack has died). Ennis sees Jack as he (Jack) was when they first met on BBM.

Though they could have put it in the movie fairly easily if the movie had started the way the story did, with older Ennis in his trailer. Would that have been good? What do you all think?

I'm not sure, personally. I so love the movie's beginning I don't think I would like it any other way. And I can say this: it was stretching things to turn a 20-something-year-old into a 39-year-old (though they did a good job!). But making him even older might have pushed it too far.

[2robots4u]

Everytime I come to this scene, I pause and remember a time when it meant a lot in my personal life, shed many tears of pleasure, and then get on with the movie.  Like so many others, this is my favorite scene....Doug

 

[dly64]

Though they could have put it in the movie fairly easily if the movie had started the way the story did, with older Ennis in his trailer. Would that have been good? What do you all think?

I'm not sure, personally. I so love the movie's beginning I don't think I would like it any other way. And I can say this: it was stretching things to turn a 20-something-year-old into a 39-year-old (though they did a good job!). But making him even older might have pushed it too far.

I agree. I like the film's structure just the way it is. I wouldn't have wanted to see Ennis as an old man peeing in his sink. Not a very enticing way to start a film!

Everytime I come to this scene, I pause and remember a time when it meant a lot in my personal life, shed many tears of pleasure, and then get on with the movie.  Like so many others, this is my favorite scene....Doug

What is it about this scene that provokes such depths of emotion? I think about it and I can't quite put my finger on it. What about all of you?

[moremojo]

I agree. I like the film's structure just the way it is. I wouldn't have wanted to see Ennis as an old man peeing in his sink. Not a very enticing way to start a film!

This would certainly have given further emphasis to Ennis as a "stander", to see that he carried his grief into old age. But the movie opened on the perfect note.

What is it about this scene that provokes such depths of emotion? I think about it and I can't quite put my finger on it. What about all of you?

Jack's face here is just about the most tender, softest thing I've ever seen in a film. I remember shakestheground making a similar comment. The love conveyed in this scene is so real and powerful, unlike any comparable moment in any other love story I know.

[Momof2]

Jack's face here is just about the most tender, softest thing I've ever seen in a film. I remember shakestheground making a similar comment. The love conveyed in this scene is so real and powerful, unlike any comparable moment in any other love story I know.
[/quote]

This is one of my favorite scenes.  They were so young and so happy.  Before life really hit them.  I think it takes all of us back to the time in our lives when we were young and things were simpler.  I was 19 when I met my husband.  I look back on that now and think how young and naive I was.  It shows one of the few times they were actually affectionate.  Jack's face is so sweet.  It makes my heart skip a few beats.  As I have mentioned before, my sister died when I was a sophmore in college.  A lot of times when I dream of her she is young.  Not that she was old when she died but when we were kids. 

[Front-Ranger]

You made me think that one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is because it is a flashback, it is out of place in the chronological framework of the rest of the movie, and it contrasts in every way. And another thing, it makes the best use of Jake's eyelids. He has the best eyelids in the business (with Tilda Swinton a close second). Would you agree?

[moremojo]

He has the best eyelids in the business (with Tilda Swinton a close second). Would you agree?

I for one would certainly agree, on the basis of the 'dozy embrace' scene alone. I've never given eyelids much thought before, but now that I'm thinking about it (I'm a real thinker, all right ), Greta Garbo was wonderfully expressive yet subtly nuanced in that area. Of course she's no longer with us. Among living thespians, Amy Sedaris does some amazing comedic things with her lids.

[dly64]

You made me think that one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is because it is a flashback, it is out of place in the chronological framework of the rest of the movie, and it contrasts in every way. And another thing, it makes the best use of Jake's eyelids. He has the best eyelids in the business (with Tilda Swinton a close second). Would you agree?

I agree that the contrast between the past and the present makes the scene much more poignant. That scene just kills me every time I see it because I know what they had and what they could have had.

As for Jake’s eyelids …. Can’t say I’ve ever noticed them before. I have always noticed his beautiful blue eyes (but I’ll check out the eyelids tonight).  

[Front-Ranger]

Good eyelid scenes (besides the flashback) are: peeling potatoes and best of all, the smoldering look just before Jack lassos Ennis on the Last Day.

[dly64]

Good eyelid scenes (besides the flashback) are: peeling potatoes and best of all, the smoldering look just before Jack lassos Ennis on the Last Day.

I love it! Something new to check out! (Not that I mind checking anything out on Jake! )

[Katie77]

Beautiful eye lids....absolutely beautiful.......

[Front-Ranger]

Jennifer Anniston's character even commented on it in "The Good Girl", about how his eyelids gave him a faint look of tragic melancholy. But as a redneck, I don't think she phrased it exactly that way. 

[2robots4u]

I think Jake's eyes and eyelids were the first things I notice when I first saw him, in real life, not the movie.  Then the emphasis in the movie just did me in.  Eyes and lips (lips, not a typo for lids), are usually the first things I notice when I meet people because they say so much about the person before you actually talk to them.  I could sit and stare at Jake's eyes for days....Doug

[dly64]

I think Jake's eyes and eyelids were the first things I notice when I first saw him, in real life, not the movie.  Then the emphasis in the movie just did me in.  Eyes and lips (lips, not a typo for lids), are usually the first things I notice when I meet people because they say so much about the person before you actually talk to them.  I could sit and stare at Jake's eyes for days....Doug

Wait! Wait! Wait! Doug ... are you saying you have met this beautiful man? Can I keel over and die right now?

[2robots4u]

I didn't expect such a reaction from you, Diane, but no, not up-close-and-personal.  Just as an object of movie-star searching.  I have friends still living in the LA/Hollywood area, and SOMETIMES when we hit the streets we often run into "people", at taco stands, ice cream parlors, fast-food places (it's surprising how many rich and famous people dine "fast-food" mode).  I'm not one to run up to and attack a star, but I know some who do! Maybe next time!

And no, don't keel over just yet...he may be in your neck of the woods soon.  "Neck-of-the-woods" is country for "locale".

[dly64]

I didn't expect such a reaction from you, Diane, but no, not up-close-and-personal.  Just as an object of movie-star searching.  I have friends still living in the LA/Hollywood area, and SOMETIMES when we hit the streets we often run into "people", at taco stands, ice cream parlors, fast-food places (it's surprising how many rich and famous people dine "fast-food" mode).  I'm not one to run up to and attack a star, but I know some who do! Maybe next time!

And no, don't keel over just yet...he may be in your neck of the woods soon.  "Neck-of-the-woods" is country for "locale".

Not to say that I would attack Jake (of course, not to say I wouldn't ...  ), but LORDY! He is beautiful. I think I would choke on a taco if he walked by.     SIGH!

BTW, sad to say … I know what “in your neck of the woods” means. I live in a very rural place! 

[coffeecat33]

I think if I ever met Jake in person - or even see him at a distance - I would jump up and down and scream "Jake!!" Then throw myself at him. Or else I would just stand there, slack-jawed and drooling; I'm not sure which. There are a fair amount of movies filmed in Minneapolis and believe me - I'm not one for breaking the law but I would stalk that man until he had to get a restraining order out on me if he was filming in location in Mpls! (oh please please please)

Jack/Jake's soft face in the dozy embrace is too beautiful for words. He looks like an angel (okay it's starting to get a little late and I'm starting to get a little sappy) but he is beautiful. Jennifer Aniston's character, Justine, says about Jake's character, Tom/Holden, that he has "pouty lips like a woman." and his eyes turn down at the corners, making him look melancholy. Jake can look so broody and yet when he laughs every part of his face laughs, too. It kind of sounds like I'm in love with Jake Gyllenhaal, doesn't it? THAT'S CUZ I AM!!

[Momof2]

I think everyone is a little star struck wether they would admit it or not.  I have met Morgan Freeman a couple of times.  I know it is not the same as Jake, but a celebrity none the same.  It is weird to see "famous" people out and about like "normal" people. 

[jpwagoneer1964]

I am actually pretty good buds With Christopher Atkins (Blue Lagoon if anyone even remembers). We go every year to the LA Auto Show. He put me up at his house once when I was very ill and took good care of me for several days. Still very good looking, held up better than most of his era, although I tease him about having wrinkles, once we were in a hot tub and he said" better get out I'm getting shriveled", I replied "Yeah but your face wasn't in the water". Just a regular guy and one of the nicest people I know..

[moremojo]

I am actually pretty good buds With Christopher Atkins (Blue Lagoon if anyone even remembers). He put me up at his house once when I was very ill and took good care of me for several days. Still very good looking, held up better than most of his era. Just a regular guy.

He always struck me like a nice guy--glad to hear he's still around and doing okay. I think it's very useful to remember that celebrities are human beings, just like the rest of us, with feelings, needs, and frailties. I have been star-struck a few times in my life, but I always remind myself that it's very important to address anyone and everyone, whether famous or not, with respect, humanity, and deference.

I remember there being a thread (I think on Chez Tremblay) about folks' various encounters with the famous and talented. Truly, judging from the experiences many shared, you never know when someone well-known might show up in your proximity. So all you Jake-watchers, stay on the alert (but remember to be nice ).

 
Scott

[2robots4u]

That's very good advise.  Famous people are not as stand-offish as "regular" people might think.  For those of us in the So. Cal. area, it is a daily occurrence.  I went with friends in 19?? to a bar on Wilshire Blvd in WeHo and sat down at the bar, turned around to order and knocked my elbow into the drinking arm of Rod McKuen.  Had a nice chat and future affair (but that's another story).  Mary Tyler Moore took a tomato away from me at the market..actually, we reached at the same time, but she got first dibs.  Back in the 1970s, celebrities were more accessable, less afraid of the public, but today, the paparazzi has caused them to disguise themselves.  And the fans are also responsible for some of it because of the "attack" mode in most of them.  I grew up among the Hollywood stars and have always considered them just regular people.  That's not to say I'm not star struck..if Streissand, Midler, or Mathis should suddenly appear within radar range, whose knows what  might do.   

[dly64]

I grew up among the Hollywood stars and have always considered them just regular people.  That's not to say I'm not star struck..if Streissand, Midler, or Mathis should suddenly appear within radar range, whose knows what  might do.   

I think it's very useful to remember that celebrities are human beings, just like the rest of us, with feelings, needs, and frailties. I have been star-struck a few times in my life, but I always remind myself that it's very important to address anyone and everyone, whether famous or not, with respect, humanity, and deference.

You know Scott and Doug ... your comments reminded me of something and I just couldn't resist. I am a huge “I Love Lucy” fan. There is an episode “L.A. at Last” where Lucy, Fred and Ethel go to the Brown Derby. As they sit there a number of star’s names are being called out like Cary Grant, etc. Whenever Lucy and Ethel hear a name they jump up and look around until they can locate the star. Fred tells them that they need to stop it and says, “They’re just people like you and me.” Then you hear Ava Gardner’s name being called and Fred jumps up. Ethel says, “she’s just people like you and me.” And Fred answers, “She may be people, but she’s not like you and me.”  I just think that’s hysterical!  So, IMO, Jake may be “people” but he’s not like anyone I know around here!

[Front-Ranger]

I lived in Los Angeles for a long time (at least it seemed like it) so I've had a few brushes with the glitterati. Here's one of my favorites:

I asked the guy I was dating (my future husband) to meet me at a restaurant on Pico Blvd. and we had to wait a long time for a table. Fortunately they had a wonderful array of antipasti at the bar. He went to the restroom and urged me to take a trip that way too. I found out why: just before the restroom door was a table where Robert Wagner, Jack Palance, and Natalie Wood were having dinner. I didn't bother them, but exchanged smoldering glances with Natalie. This was just a few months before she died.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I lived in Los Angeles for a long time (at least it seemed like it) so I've had a few brushes with the glitterati. Here's one of my favorites:

I  Natalie. This was just a few months before she died.

Or perhaps was murdered.

[BBM-Cat]

A little OT but does anyone have a nice graphic image of the 'dozy embrace' - I'm really looking for an image taken from a distance that has the full-length shot of both Jack and Ennis behind the campfire. I googled the image and downloaded the close-up version. Thank you in advance.

[Penthesilea]

A little OT but does anyone have a nice graphic image of the 'dozy embrace' - I'm really looking for an image taken from a distance that has the full-length shot of both Jack and Ennis behind the campfire. I googled the image and downloaded the close-up version. Thank you in advance.

Do you have software for image diting? I found only very dark versions on stripedwall.com  I'll give you the link anyway. Stripedwall is a great source. They have more than 500 screencaps from BBM.

Link to the BBM directory at stripedwall:
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/index.php?cat=11

Link to the scene you wanted:
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/displayimage.php?album=182&pos=20

Either you could edit it to your likes, or you just wait till someone else finds a better, lighter version of this pic.

[BBM-Cat]

Do you have software for image diting? I found only very dark versions on stripedwall.com  I'll give you the link anyway. Stripedwall is a great source. They have more than 500 screencaps from BBM.

Link to the BBM directory at stripedwall:
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/index.php?cat=11

Link to the scene you wanted:
http://www.stripedwall.com/cpg/displayimage.php?album=182&pos=20

Either you could edit it to your likes, or you just wait till someone else finds a better, lighter version of this pic.

OMgosh - YOU ROCK! Thank you thank you thank you so much. Obviously, I'm still in stage one (obsession) - only saw BBM 5 days ago for the first time. Love the forum. Have a great day.

[Front-Ranger]

Welcome to our obsession, BBM-Cat! Tell U what, there ain't no reins on this one! (You probably suspected that, but it's true!) I love that scene too, particularly the way the camera sweeps up Jack's body to his sweet dozy face, with Ennis approaching him from behind and grabbing him roughly but also tenderly. Next time you watch the movie (which I hope is soon) be sure to watch carefully the very beginning of that scene where the camera grazes the campfire, and you can see the tops of the bucket and the coffeepot lined up together very neatly, echoing the figures of Jack and Ennis themselves. That is so poignant!

Also, notice the music: the intertwining of the acoustic and the pedal steel guitar.

[BBM-Cat]

Obsession yes! But I don't want to be cured of it. That scene for me at least capitulates utter and total contentment - a moment frozen in time. I just love it. I sneak glances of it on my computer during the day at work. Thank you for the symbolic pointers too - when I do sit down to watch BBM again I will be much more attuned due to this forum! I am overwhelmed by the incredible level of insight and symbolism discussed on this board. Never has a movie taken such a powerful hold on me and I'm sure glad there ain't no reins on this one! Here's my intro and where I'm at in the process: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=31.510

Welcome to our obsession, BBM-Cat! Tell U what, there ain't no reins on this one! (You probably suspected that, but it's true!) I love that scene too, particularly the way the camera sweeps up Jack's body to his sweet dozy face, with Ennis approaching him from behind and grabbing him roughly but also tenderly. Next time you watch the movie (which I hope is soon) be sure to watch carefully the very beginning of that scene where the camera grazes the campfire, and you can see the tops of the bucket and the coffeepot lined up together very neatly, echoing the figures of Jack and Ennis themselves. That is so poignant!

Also, notice the music: the intertwining of the acoustic and the pedal steel guitar.

[Front-Ranger]

I think of this scene so often that it's practically tatooed onto my eyelids!! I can't understand why for the likes of me anyone would ask why the scene is even in the film (it has a likewise prominent place in the story too) but at least it did start this beautiful discussion!! Thanks as well for introducing yourself!!

[BBM-Cat]

I love that! What a perfect description of the emotional impact that scene has. I have to ask, it's been a year since the movie came out, do you (or other posters) see the same questions and themes from the new discoverers of the movie? I feel like I am far behind the rest of the BBM world but I am trying my best to catch up. I also can't imagine ever getting tired of this specific scene or image.

I think of this scene so often that it's practically tatooed onto my eyelids!! I can't understand why for the likes of me anyone would ask why the scene is even in the film (it has a likewise prominent place in the story too) but at least it did start this beautiful discussion!! Thanks as well for introducing yourself!!

[moremojo]

I have to ask, it's been a year since the movie came out, do you (or other posters) see the same questions and themes from the new discoverers of the movie?

Absolutely. The emotional responses are often so similar: not being able to think of anything else, the two boys even invading one's dreams; raw emotion just below the surface, ready to come up with anything reminding one of the film; alternating feelings of elation that one has been touched by such artistic beauty, and worries for one's sanity or emotional health due to the intensity and duration of the obsession. It is also very common for people to reassess their own lives, usually finding areas lacking fulfillment, and striving for new resolve to make something better of their remaining time on this earth.

One also hears the same questions come up again and again: How did Jack die? And what did Ennis mean by "Jack, I swear--"? Added to this is a strong urge to discuss the story and its implications at great length and detail. The obsession does lessen over time, but for myself I have come to realize that Jack and Ennis will always be a part of my heart and life. This was a life experience for me, a miracle even.

And by the way, I was a relative latecomer myself, having first seen the film on February the 18th (the eve of my thirty-ninth birthday anniversary). I went on to see the film four more times in the theater, have invested in the DVD, and have reviewed the short story any number of times.

[Lynne]

I love that! What a perfect description of the emotional impact that scene has. I have to ask, it's been a year since the movie came out, do you (or other posters) see the same questions and themes from the new discoverers of the movie? I feel like I am far behind the rest of the BBM world but I am trying my best to catch up. I also can't imagine ever getting tired of this specific scene or image.

I don't think you should feel behind, BBM-Cat.  I also came to the movie relatively late because I live in the back of beyond.  I read the short story first - and couldn't stop obsesssng over it - so I was *DYING* for the movie to get anywhere close!

No matter how many times I see it (21 theatre, uncounted at home DVD), I always - thus far - have found new or different insight each and every time.  The last few times have been special beyond explanation because they were group Brokie viewings.  Previously, I'd only seen it alone (often in an empty theatre save me) or with someone I was desperately trying to get to understand *me* and my obsession, usually to no avail...

Eric (sfericsf) has told me that because BBM is an open narrative, what you get out of BBM is directly related to what you bring with you in your heart when you see it.  Maybe that is why each viewing can be fresh and new?

(Disclaimer:  I recall being chastised before by Eric that he did not originate the open narrative idea - I have no idea who did - I heard it first from Eric.)  At any rate, it rings true for me.

-Lynne

[BBM-Cat]

BTW, it worked perfectly - I downloaded the image then brightened it. Thanks for brightening my day with the link.

Do you have software for image diting? I found only very dark versions on stripedwall.com  I'll give you the link anyway. Stripedwall is a great source. They have more than 500 screencaps from BBM......

[BBM-Cat]

FrontRanger - got to view the image in closer detail from the link Penthesilea provided - excellent symmetry, and then I also noticed that orange line on the the other side of Jack and Ennis serving as some kind of dividing line. Interesting.

I have a question maybe you can help me with (probably a basic, newbie type of question) - I think I understand the symbolism for Ennis and the coffeepot (the famous Lake Scene quote) - but can you elucidate on Jack and the bucket? Or, maybe point me to a discussion thread that explains this? Thank you.

Welcome to our obsession, BBM-Cat! Tell U what, there ain't no reins on this one! (You probably suspected that, but it's true!) I love that scene too, particularly the way the camera sweeps up Jack's body to his sweet dozy face, with Ennis approaching him from behind and grabbing him roughly but also tenderly. Next time you watch the movie (which I hope is soon) be sure to watch carefully the very beginning of that scene where the camera grazes the campfire, and you can see the tops of the bucket and the coffeepot lined up together very neatly, echoing the figures of Jack and Ennis themselves. That is so poignant!
Also, notice the music: the intertwining of the acoustic and the pedal steel guitar.

[nakymaton]

BBM-Cat, here's the thread that talks about the bucket and coffeepot symbolism (and a lot of other things).

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=569.0

And don't ever feel you have to apologize for asking "newbie-type questions." You, and everyone else who just discovered the movie, are bringing a wonderful energy to this forum. (I can't wait until you've read the story and can add your insights into all the discussions about Jack's and Ennis's personality. We've needed a trained psychologist around these parts. )

[BBM-Cat]

Thanks Everyone  - for your patience with repetitive questions and the willingness to increase my, and other newbies, insight and understanding. It seems advanced study in English literature might suit me better than psychology! (LOL).  I'll definitely have a different perspective next time I watch BBM, which is planned for this evening.

Evidently I misread the HBO tv schedule thinking it was on tonight. "Too bad" I had to go out and buy the DVD today ....that did get me thinking about all those people who saw it a year ago and were dependent upon returning to the theater multiple times before the DVD came out. And, to think it only showed in selected locations. That must have been very rough for many.

By chance did anyone see the new book at Amazon.com? I did go ahead and order it as well as STS and Close Range.
- I Wish I Knew How to Quit You: An Unofficial Brokeback Mountain Trivia Book
http://www.amazon.com/Wish-Knew-How-Quit-You/dp/1430303603/sr=1-8/qid=1166323615/ref=sr_1_8/105-7771526-4491620?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Front-Ranger]

I haven't heard of this book! I'll definitely have to order it!

[Penthesilea]

....that did get me thinking about all those people who saw it a year ago and were dependent upon returning to the theater multiple times before the DVD came out. And, to think it only showed in selected locations. That must have been very rough for many.

Someone (don't remember who, sorry) phrased it this way: youtube.com saved many lives in those times before the DVD came out
So true  . I was lucky since I saw BBM the first time in end of March and the DVD came out in GB end of April.

By chance did anyone see the new book at Amazon.com? I did go ahead and order it as well as STS and Close Range.
- I Wish I Knew How to Quit You: An Unofficial Brokeback Mountain Trivia Book
http://www.amazon.com/Wish-Knew-How-Quit-You/dp/1430303603/sr=1-8/qid=1166323615/ref=sr_1_8/105-7771526-4491620?ie=UTF8&s=books

I haven't heard of it either  . Lee and BBM-Cat, please let us know details about it as soon as you read it. I'm definitely interested.
I suggest you open a thread about this book on the "Movie Resources" forum, to spread the news. I'm sure others will be interested, too. The movie resources forum is here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?board=2.0


BBM-Cat, you are indeed infected with Brokeback fever, buying all three books and the DVD in one fell swoop  .

Have you already read the thread about Brokeback Fever? It's by our own Leslie (Maine Writer) and it's hilarious, but also true  . It's here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=492.0

[Lynne]

bump

[Front-Ranger]

Question for everyone: how many times do Jack and Ennis have a dozy embrace in the movie??