Author Topic: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?  (Read 66034 times)

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2006, 06:58:07 pm »
Sorry. But all I can think of is, WOW. This is a great thread and I wish I had a little more energy to dissect it. It's interesting, Annie Proulx said that (essentially) Jack & Ennis had a life of their own, the story has a life of its own, and the movie has a life of its own. As far as including the dozy embrace in the film, well it is a film and some things need to be explained visually and including for visual and cinematic effect. (Please note I am not suggesting anything was done in this film 'just because' - rather I think Ang Lee was very deliberate with his choices.) I tell you what... I love someone to embrace me from behind, I love embracing someone from behind (I am talking standing up hugs, people!) and I think Ennis embracing Jack from behind - in contrast to the violently passionate first tent scene that was also from behind - was so loving, tender and quietly passionate. This scene breaks my heart more than any other. Jack is so beautiful, Ennis so sweet that I can hardly stand it.

Offline dly64

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2006, 08:47:16 pm »
Although I regard the 'dozy embrace' scene as pivotal, and almost overpoweringly emotional, and it reduces me to pathetic snivels with monotonous regularity, I still feel it doesn't fit comfortably into the lake side scene. Early on it had ME confused too about what was going on, even though we now know just how powerful a metaphor it is for the bond between our boys!
Having said that, I haven't a clue where it would fit any better, possibly AFTER Ennis had driven away that last time! (Gulp) :-\

I, on the other hand, find that it fits perfectly where it is. Jack and Ennis have just had their most intense and personal confrontation in their long-term relationship. The flashback serves as a counterpoint to what their relationship has become. They spent twenty years going through the wringer … and we, the audience, have gone through it with them. The flashback serves as a reminder of what they had while on the mountain … a loving, unvarnished, and open relationship.


The only part I don't like about the 'dozey embrace" is the contrast of Jack's then to the then present. Heartbreaking. I do agree that Ennis does look into Jack's face from behind.

IMO, that is an important facet of the lake and “dozy embrace” scenes. It is that contrast that makes the flashback so poignant.

It's interesting, Annie Proulx said that (essentially) Jack & Ennis had a life of their own, the story has a life of its own, and the movie has a life of its own. As far as including the dozy embrace in the film, well it is a film and some things need to be explained visually and including for visual and cinematic effect. (Please note I am not suggesting anything was done in this film 'just because' - rather I think Ang Lee was very deliberate with his choices.) I tell you what... I love someone to embrace me from behind, I love embracing someone from behind (I am talking standing up hugs, people!) and I think Ennis embracing Jack from behind - in contrast to the violently passionate first tent scene that was also from behind - was so loving, tender and quietly passionate. This scene breaks my heart more than any other. Jack is so beautiful, Ennis so sweet that I can hardly stand it.

I agree with you are saying. The one thing I want to reiterate …. and I know it sounds like I am nitpicking (which I have been known to do from time to time) …. is that there is a difference between embracing and holding. Holding is a lot more intimate. Think of marital vows … “to have and to hold”. I know I have said this earlier in this thread, so pardon my redundancy. However, it is worth repeating. Yes … Ennis can embrace Jack face to face, they kiss face to face, but Ennis is unable to hold Jack face to face. Think of the motel scene … Ennis is not facing Jack. The “dozy embrace” is the same way. IMO, it is a metaphor for Ennis’ being unable to face the reality that he loves a man and that he is, indeed, gay. Jack understands this to be true. He also knows that Ennis loves him, and that is all that really matters.
Diane

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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2006, 09:44:50 pm »
You know, despite the whole not-looking-face-to-face metaphor, the sort of spooning position (standing, sitting, lying down, whatever) has the connotation of "protection" or "comfort" or "safety" to me. (Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2006, 09:48:36 pm »

IMO, that is an important facet of the lake and “dozy embrace” scenes. It is that contrast that makes the flashback so poignant.

 
[/quote]I agree with you the importance of the embrace and the timing. It's sad reflection on what their lives could have had when you see Jack as Ennis drives away, which of course is the point.
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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2006, 09:52:37 pm »
Yes I do and I found it very poignant. Another movie where this is seen is "Hero" which is a Chinese movie made by one of Ang Lee's rivals. At the very end, the "hero" commits hari kari, and as he is waiting to die, the woman warrior who loves him comes up behind him and sits at his back, and talks to him. So they sit, facing the sunset, until she takes hold of the sword and forces it still further, into her own body. So they die in that position. When I saw it, it made me think of BBM.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2006, 10:05:07 pm »
(Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

Count me in! (Another example is TS3.) I realize there are lots of reasons to believe Ennis is uncomfortable about his relationship with Jack, but IMO these holding positions are not among them. In fact, very little about his body language with Jack reads that way to me. Despite all his reservations, when he's actually with Jack he almost always seems very happy to me.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2006, 10:21:28 pm »
You know, despite the whole not-looking-face-to-face metaphor, the sort of spooning position (standing, sitting, lying down, whatever) has the connotation of "protection" or "comfort" or "safety" to me. (Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

Yeah you got it......comforting, protecting......standing as one.....to me is as intimate as if they are making love.....
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2006, 11:21:56 pm »
Well, in terms of the timing/ placement of the flashback in the film/ story... I think the decision came down to the "bookend" idea... the beginning and the end of the relationship and also the comparison and contrast between the hugs. 

Although, this does seem quite important (maybe?)... the flashback in the story seems to be positioned slightly differently from the film.  The flashback in the story does seem to come at the very end of the "argument scene" and before a break in the story (and even a break in how the type is set on the page) after which Ennis receives the "deceased" postcard.  So, it seems (at least in how I read the longer version of BBM in Proulx's Close Range) the flashback is positioned in line with how Samrim would prefer to see it in the movie.

Lee, very interestingly, seems to have decided to move the flashback up just a tiny bit so that it interrupts the argument.  I still think this is simply to help encourage a lingering sense of ambiguity as to how the boys concluded the hug/ heated-conversation.  But, this might be a really important gesture on the part of the filmmakers.
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Offline dly64

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2006, 11:22:47 pm »
You know, despite the whole not-looking-face-to-face metaphor, the sort of spooning position (standing, sitting, lying down, whatever) has the connotation of "protection" or "comfort" or "safety" to me. (Both the motel scene and the dozy embrace look very comforting to me.) Do other people see the position in the same way?

You are right ... they are spooning and it is comforting and loving. But, in all those scenes, Ennis is not looking at Jack face- to-face. It is the most intimate moments where Ennis is holding/ spooning Jack. I don’t want to belabor this issue, because I know there are completely opposing views. IMO, it makes a statement about who Ennis is. Ennis is a person with a lot of fear and denial. He loves Jack … but to admit that to himself would mean that he accepts his homosexuality. Ennis is unable to “face” a lot of things. Certainly his sexuality is a big issue. So, whether or not you take the statement that Ennis “… does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds …” literally is debatable. However, to look at it metaphorically makes a lot of sense. Just a thought!
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Why is the "dozy embrace" in the film?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2006, 11:52:05 pm »
Brilliant, dly, and very touching.
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