Author Topic: Forced "Out"  (Read 9466 times)

Offline silkncense

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Forced "Out"
« on: July 27, 2006, 11:05:51 pm »
Don't know if this is on any other thread but the entertainment news has Lance Bass stating that he is gay.  He also said that because of "rumors" he felt it was necessary to come forward at this time & that he was upset that his mother found out via gossip blurbs before he could personally talk to her.

The 'reporter' Perez Hilton (?) said he feels it is his job to 'report what is known' & as a gay man feels it is right to "out" people.

So, is it right to reveal a secret that a person does not want the world at large to know?  Under what circumstances?  I personally have a secret that I've shared with only two people.  I do NOT believe it is anyone's right but mine to do so.

Others?
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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 12:00:14 am »
I agree with you completely that's one of the many reasons that Ted C and his awful gossip reports of "toothy tile" were so offensive to me.  There is much speculation on the IMDb BBM board that Lance is actually Toothy Tile.  But I don't care one way or the other.  The very  fact that this is cover story news is ridiculous.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 12:13:28 am »
Anyone who tries to out someone against their will is a low-lying, scum-sucking bottom feeder.  Take that Perez/Ted C.  >:(

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 09:43:15 am »
Personally I would say that it is neither right nor necessary, as it serves no public service.  That's the short answer.  A reporter might argue with that, so a more complete and analytical way of looking at it might be:

Q - Is sexual orientation personal or public information?
A - I think the answer is obvious (personal), but if someone disagrees then we simply have to ask:

Q - Would revealing this information affect the public interest or the individual's (which includes their friends and family)
A - There may be the odd exception (I can't think of any though) but I think it's clear this only affects the individual.

Ok, now that we've established how to tell if there is public or individual impact:

Q - Is it "right" to report personal information that has no public impact?
A - Again, I think this has an obvious answer - a definite no.

If anyone can see a flaw in my logic I'd love to hear it... :-\
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 10:00:25 am »
Anyone who tries to out someone against their will is a low-lying, scum-sucking bottom feeder.  Take that Perez/Ted C.  >:(

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I would like to add, though, that anyone gay or not (initials OPRAH WINFREY!!!) who specifically tells the world "I'm "NOT gay"" belongs in the same category.  Yes, they're just as wrong to be trying to "out" her, but emphatically responding with "I'm not gay" is not the answer.  All that does is contribute to the stigma.  Jerk.  God, she's such an idiot.

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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 10:19:48 am »

 but emphatically responding with "I'm not gay" is not the answer.  All that does is contribute to the stigma.  Jerk.  God, she's such an idiot.


What is the right answer?
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 10:26:15 am »
What is the right answer?

The right answer is not to say what you are not, but to say what you are.  Jake handled it perfectly when the rumors were flying about him and Austin Nichols.  "We are good friends."  Period.
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Offline Kelda

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 10:42:13 am »
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I would like to add, though, that anyone gay or not (initials OPRAH WINFREY!!!) who specifically tells the world "I'm "NOT gay"" belongs in the same category.  Yes, they're just as wrong to be trying to "out" her, but emphatically responding with "I'm not gay" is not the answer.  All that does is contribute to the stigma.  Jerk.  God, she's such an idiot.



whats this please explain! romours about oprah winfrey that shes gay?? 
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Offline henrypie

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2006, 12:31:59 pm »
I remember on an episode of The West Wing, there were rumors of gayness swirling around C.J. the press secretary (played by the great Allison Janney).  If I recall, she made a statement at a press conference saying "it's none of anyone's business," even though she was in fact not gay and couldn't be blamed for being tempted to play the straight card.

But alas, that's fantasy-land.

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2006, 12:38:23 pm »
I remember on an episode of The West Wing, there were rumors of gayness swirling around C.J. the press secretary (played by the great Allison Janney).  If I recall, she made a statement at a press conference saying "it's none of anyone's business," even though she was in fact not gay and couldn't be blamed for being tempted to play the straight card.

But alas, that's fantasy-land.

Yep.  That's really the best answer.  But yes, most people in the real world don't have the cajones (or their press agents don't allow them to use them if they do) to actually say that.

Kelda, I didn't know there were rumors afloat that Oprah was gay until I read all over the place here where she emphatically said she is not.  Apparently, she's been close friends with a woman named Gayle for 30 years and has said that their connection is "otherworldly" and that our culture doesn't have a word to decribe a friendship as close as theirs.  That's cool.  And I may be being too hard on her (NO!  Really???) - it may be that the press are the only ones saying "Oprah: I'm not gay" when really she didn't say that verbatim.  It's been known to happen before.   ::)
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2006, 04:16:11 pm »
I'm not for forced outing either, but sometimes when it serves to expose hypocrisies, I tend to take guilty pleasure in it. Some of you will remember back in the days at PT, there was a story about a pastor who had been out spoken in his community against gay rights, then was caught propositioning an undercover cop in a hotel restroom. I'm sorry to say, in that case, I couldn't help but feel like the world is better off for that "forced outing".

I do agree with Barb, that denying the rumors with a negative comment is hurtful and adds to the stigma.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2006, 06:22:37 pm »
I'm not for forced outing either, but sometimes when it serves to expose hypocrisies, I tend to take guilty pleasure in it. Some of you will remember back in the days at PT, there was a story about a pastor who had been out spoken in his community against gay rights, then was caught propositioning an undercover cop in a hotel restroom. I'm sorry to say, in that case, I couldn't help but feel like the world is better off for that "forced outing".

I do agree with Barb, that denying the rumors with a negative comment is hurtful and adds to the stigma.

I agree that a 'mind your own business' is the best answer, that can also appear to be a neutral nolo contendre type answer and after a while, some people - in the public eye especially - may get exasperated of the subject being brought up again and again and again for years and years and years since "s/he didn't deny it" and finally just blurt out the declaration.  It isn't meant to be hurtful, but to get others off their backs.

As for the other, unfortunately there are still laws on the books and the cop was just doing his job.  I don't call this an 'out-ing'.  Had the guy just stuck to dating secretly, he might have kept the secret he so obviously wanted to.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 06:25:02 pm by delalluvia »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2006, 07:03:57 pm »
I agree that a 'mind your own business' is the best answer, that can also appear to be a neutral nolo contendre type answer and after a while, some people - in the public eye especially - may get exasperated of the subject being brought up again and again and again for years and years and years since "s/he didn't deny it" and finally just blurt out the declaration.  It isn't meant to be hurtful, but to get others off their backs.

I understand that it didn't come from a hurtful intention. But it still hurts. By answering negatively, it still plays into the homophobia. I don't even demand people say "Mind your own business." Like Barb pointed out, Jake's denial with a positive answer "We're good friends" is a really classy way to address it. Celebrity can say "I'm straight". That's a good way to be open and not make it negative.

Quote
As for the other, unfortunately there are still laws on the books and the cop was just doing his job.  I don't call this an 'out-ing'.  Had the guy just stuck to dating secretly, he might have kept the secret he so obviously wanted to.

I agree the cop was doing his job. That's not where the outing came from. It came from media attention. It's always the media that does the outing. And for the most part I'd say the media over steps the bounds of decency, though I also recognize freedom of the press. I think they have a right to "out" people, but it is up to us to not buy their stories if we find it offensive that they do.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2006, 07:12:03 pm »
I don't even demand people say "Mind your own business." Like Barb pointed out, Jake's denial with a positive answer "We're good friends" is a really classy way to address it.

It is, but it's not a specific answer for someone looking for it.  Obviously, gay people have friends too.

Quote
Celebrity can say "I'm straight". That's a good way to be open and not make it negative.

Agree.

Quote
I agree the cop was doing his job. That's not where the outing came from. It came from media attention.

I don't think it was an 'out'ing' by the media as much as a juicy story of a law-breaker busted by cops.  Any outspoken religious person being caught 'sinning' is headline worthy.

Hence the shit that's about to hit the fan with our man Mel Gibson and his alleged DUI.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2006, 07:31:27 pm »
I think what happens with these people who the press continually keep saying...."rumours are that so and so is gay"....makes it sound like there is a stigma to being gay.and that they are finding some "dirt" on the person.....

It puts that person in a very awkward position, a position, that they didnt create, but some press rumour monger has created.....

By saying "no, I am not gay".....it can be taken as "no, dont put that stigma on me", or it can be taken that they are just stating a fact, so there once again, leaves the bloody press to interpret their reply in a way that will attract some headline....

I remember someone answering to a rumour one time saying, "no, I am not gay, but if I was, I would be just as happy to be saying, yes, I am gay"......

There is no easy way out for these people, and one would have to have some sympathy for them because, once rumours start going around about them, they end up in a position of being damned if they dont and damned if the do...reply....

And as we know, it is just the gay issue that they have to cope with, there is always, "so and so is pregnant", "so and so is separated from his/her partner"..."so and so is having an affair"...it goes on and on.....anything to sell magazines and newspapers....its the price of fame I guess...where they lose their privacy.

And we can say "who bloody cares"....but people are curious by nature, and its us who buy these magazines and newspapers, and I do think, that most of us read things like that and say "ok....he/she is gay....now what else is new?".....nobody stopped buying Elton John or George Michael records because they are gay, people would still watch Oprah, the world would still go on.....

As a bit of humour....if the magazine said "so and so is straight....and happily married.....would we be all waiting with baited breath to hear a denial of this.......
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2006, 07:49:21 pm »
As a bit of humour....if the magazine said "so and so is straight....and happily married.....would we be all waiting with baited breath to hear a denial of this.......

Depends on who they were talking about.
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Offline silkncense

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2006, 10:03:31 pm »
Chris - I love your logic - & wouldn't it be a better world if people (including the news media  ;)) actually employed it!

I also agree that if someone is being hypocritical & PUBLICLY using their influence to negatively impact another persons life - that hypocracy should be revealed absolutely!  And I too would take (not so) guilty pleasure in it!

I am still considering whether stating "I'm not gay" is a negative comment when stated by someone straight.  When I say, "I'm not married" I'm not implying that I think being married is a negative thing (or am I ???).  Not that anyone cares to ask me, but if they did, I would answer, "I'm straight"   So, I can see why the opposite may ring as approaching the question from the negative side...
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2006, 12:50:10 am »
I am still considering whether stating "I'm not gay" is a negative comment when stated by someone straight.  When I say, "I'm not married" I'm not implying that I think being married is a negative thing (or am I ).  Not that anyone cares to ask me, but if they did, I would answer, "I'm straight"   So, I can see why the opposite may ring as approaching the question from the negative side...

Thanks silk, I agree, I really liked your consideration of whether "I'm not gay" was negative, I was thinking along those lines also.  I take that thought even further though.  I'm not a woman, so if I say so is that sexist?  Some may think this is a silly comparison, but what if I told you that I was once accused of being sexist because I used the word "human" because it has the word "man" in it.  Ludicrous?  I thought so, but it did make me think about the nature of thought when combined with attitude, and how lots of different people can see the same evidence and come up with completely different conclusions.

For those of you with strong protective ideas about sexual orientation, bless you.  You are the people that I hold in the highest regard.  You want to protect those that for a very long time were used as scapegoats for a world that thought being gay was a weakness.  For most of my life I believed them, because I didn't know better, but more and more I see being gay as my greatest attribute.  There are many native cultures where gays are considered holy, having a special and unique connection with Spirit that straights can never have or relate to.  Did you know that that was the case with the Native American culture?  It's true.  It is only the western European culture that corrupted this knowledge and turned being gay into something "unnatural".  Unfortunately fear and greed are powerful motivators to destroy what is not understood, and understandably there is anger and even hatred that result from such oppression.

But to be angry and to find fault makes us just as much a victim.  There are times when this is appropriate, but there are times when all we are doing is seeing something that is only there because we want it to be there (like "man" in "human"), and we are just playing our own part in spreading the disease of negative thoughts.  If Oprah was here and was reading this, seeing us twist "I'm not gay" into a statement that she is against gays, I'm sure she would be hurt by it.  You can have any belief about someone that you want from the President to the Pope, and with that belief in place, you will see the evidence that will confirm your belief.  Does Oprah's support for Crash over BBM also confirm your belief that she's against gays?  Or does it say that she is strongly against racial tolerance?  I am not trying to change your opinion of Oprah, you will see the person you believe she is, my point is that you chose this perspective and you own it.  I don't think Oprah is either positive or negative for saying she is not gay, regardless of whether she is or not.

I've always wondered what the world would be like if everyone told the "naked" truth.  Where people say they're not gay because they're not gay and no one cares if they are or aren't.  Where politicians say we're not going to give you a tax break because we'd rather give it to ourselves, or that we're invading a country because there are political and commercial advantages in doing so.  The words "democracy" and "freedom" have become depressingly distasteful to me, they are lies that only those that are on the side of might see as truth.

I don't want to play this game any more.  I don't want to believe something simply because it "supports my cause", and I don't think that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  The friends that I call out for are the ones that choose neither to lash out, nor to lash out at those that would lash out.  Some may see this post as a challenge to them.  That's ok, it's not my intention, but maybe it's "right" that they're challenged.  I hope this gives them something to think about.

I am trying, to the best of my limited human abilities, to turn away from all criticisms or concerns over what others may say or do, but I admit that I have chosen a difficult road to tread, and it seems so incredibly difficult to not fall from the path, or from grace.
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Offline David

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2006, 07:56:16 am »
My other president is Martin Sheen....

You and me both!     I'd vote for him to be the real President any day!

Granted the President Bartlett character may not reflect his (Sheens) own views 100%, but I can't see Sheen being in a role that he disagreed with what the character was saying.

Oops, sorry for derailing the thread!    :-X

Offline David

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2006, 08:26:49 am »
Forced outing?     Define Outing?

If a Celebrity is out at Gay nightclubs seen kissing another guy, then he has already opened that door.   

But if a person has kept his/her sexual identity secret and hidden  from ALL prying eyes and then some reporter climbs a fence and takes pictures of you smooching in your house that is terrible.

Public figures are public figures.   Whether your the President getting a blowjob in the oval office or a Celebrity getting caught with a Prostitute in West Hollywood.   You live under a microscope.   Hell, Jake can't scratch his ass in public without a press release!


Yes, the media makes WAY too big a deal of it.  But think of their motives.  SELLING magazines!   D'uh!    If the public didn't buy them, then this stuff wouldn't be newsworthy.

Getting back to Celebrities, I am amazed that Rock Hudson kept his gay lifestyle as secret as he did.     Liberace?  Charles Nelson Riley?  Paul Linde?   All obvioulsy gay, but when your fans love ya, they don't care.

When I read of Celebrities after they pass away and it is made known they were gay, I aways wonder, were they happy?   Did they get to live and love as themselves?   

Truth is, we do look up to Celebrities (or politicians) that we admire.     I am happy when I see people like Ellen or Rosie come out.  I think "good for them!"    But in this cruel world, there are also so many narrow minded biggots that will say:"Oh he/she is Gay?  What a waste!".   

When everyone in the world knows a gay person personally, then perhaps the bigotry and intolerance will go away.  Then "Coming out" or being "Forced out" will no longer be a media event.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2006, 08:31:15 am »
But to be angry and to find fault makes us just as much a victim.  There are times when this is appropriate, but there are times when all we are doing is seeing something that is only there because we want it to be there (like "man" in "human"), and we are just playing our own part in spreading the disease of negative thoughts.  If Oprah was here and was reading this, seeing us twist "I'm not gay" into a statement that she is against gays, I'm sure she would be hurt by it.

You're right. It most likely was not her intention to be hurtful. But I still think that it's okay for us to point out to her that it's still hurts for young gays and lesbians to hear it. (if that is indeed the words she chose). Both you and I have travel long roads to come to the place we are. We have it in us to just let it slide off our backs. But the young teens still dealing with coming to terms do not have the security that we have achieved. I would love it if these teens didn't to travel as long a road as you and I have, in order to find their place in the world and to feel secure in their sexuality. I would love it if Oprah who holds herself as role model to actually be a role model for gay teens as well as for the rest of America.
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Offline silkncense

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2006, 11:36:18 am »
Nipith -

Is your point that you believe Oprah IS gay & is denying it - or that her wording of "I'm not gay" is negative somehow & the wording "I am straight" would have been less hurtful to young gays?  I would also like to say I don't know if Oprah actually said anything, but Gayle, her friend who is the media's suspected partner stated, "We are not gay.  If we were, you would absolutely know, we would talk about it." (Or words to that effect).

David - I would hope that any "Celebrity" (or not, for that matter) that is gay would not have to hide away in their home rather than enjoy going to a nightclub, etc.  The reason Rock Hudson appeared to keep "his secret" was that the media in that time did not publicize the fact he was gay.  Information now makes it clear it was well known throughout the entertainment industry as it was for other gay entertainers.  The media (and public) now is cannabalistic - always looking for a scoop of any sort, whether true or not, whether hurtful or not - I think it is a sad state personally. 

Quote
narrow minded biggots that will say:"Oh he/she is Gay?  What a waste!".   


This point was discussed on the "Gaydar" thread - I think this is often misconstrued as a negative, offensive comment.  Tone and facial impression would play an important role, but when a straight person of the oppositie sex makes this statement, I believe it is often because they can't fantasize a "life happily everafter" with the person who is gay. 

Regarding Lance Bass - a woman who had his posters, every picture, etc of him wrote a piece in the Seattle Times yesterday.  It was CLEAR by the tone of the entire article that she is happy for him & wants the best for him. "No doubt former Lance lovers the world over are heartbroken.  I would know.  I used to be one of them."  (When he was in the band & she was a teen).  Later in the piece her friend said, "I am so disappointed.  I really am."  And she wrote, "Oh me too."

Now if you heard the last two statements you may believe the speakers are disappointed in the fact of Lance being gay rather than disappointed that Lance IS gay & therefore they - to quote ednbarby (Barb) had "No shot"...ever.
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Offline David

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2006, 07:33:26 pm »
Now if you heard the last two statements you may believe the speakers are disappointed in the fact of Lance being gay rather than disappointed that Lance IS gay & therefore they - to quote ednbarby (Barb) had "No shot"...ever.

LOL !   well, as for the concept of "No shot ever",  Tell you what, even if Jake Gyllenhaal himself said he was openly gay as of now, I'd still know that I'd have"No shot ever" !!!!

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2006, 08:31:47 pm »
Nipith -

Is your point that you believe Oprah IS gay & is denying it - or that her wording of "I'm not gay" is negative somehow & the wording "I am straight" would have been less hurtful to young gays?  I would also like to say I don't know if Oprah actually said anything, but Gayle, her friend who is the media's suspected partner stated, "We are not gay.  If we were, you would absolutely know, we would talk about it." (Or words to that effect).

LJ, I'm glad we're having this conversation here among friends. You know me well enough to know that I'm not so set in my views that I can't be convinced. I do remember as a college student coming out when celebs would publicly say "I'm NOT gay!" I was angry at the whole thing. Richard and Cindy's full page ad in the NYTimes, specifically left a bad taste. They shouldn't have had to address the issue, but the way they went about it was not helpful to those of us who still struggle with the stigma. My point isn't that Oprah is gay & is denying it. I believe it's not my business unless she makes it my business. I think our debates gets us to think about how our words carry meanings that we didn't realize are there. The quote you gave from her friend Gayle actually shows some heart, so I'm glad to hear it.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2006, 09:00:09 pm »
Sorry to be so negative about Oprah, y'all.  I don't care for her - haven't for a long time (no kidding, right?) and I flew off the handle in her general direction.

That said, yes, LJ, I would have preferred it if Gayle had said "We are straight and very close friends" instead of "We are not gay, we're just very close friends."  I just think that in every situation, it's better to say what you are than what you are not.  There are just negative connotations attached to denying something in my mind.  People regularly say "I'm not a bigot" or "I'm not a racist" or "I'm not against mixed marriages."  Saying these things clearly implies (and should) that people who are those things are lesser people than the speaker is trying to paint him or herself as being, right?  So when I hear "I'm not gay," I can't help but think the person saying it is implying, whether that is his or her intention or not (and I'm sure it's almost always not) that it is undesirable to be gay.  I don't think I'm reading too much negativity into it in seeing it that way - I think I'm just responding to the language and what it implies when it's used one way versus another.

Similarly, there are subtle differences in the way a straight woman might say about a gay man she finds attractive "what a waste."  If a straight woman says, "What a loss for straight women everywhere" or "Our loss is gay men's gain" (or any derivation thereof that clearly implies that), then that's perfectly acceptable to me.  Or if she says it like, "Damn - I was hoping to have a shot at him," that is, too.  But when she's a co-worker, for example, who has clearly told you in the past that she would never date a guy she works with and then says to you one day, as one of mine did, "I hope the next guy that sits across from me isn't gay," that's implying something entirely different.

I swear I'm really not one of these sticklers for political correctness like I come off as being - I really do give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these kinds of things.  But when such implications come up again and again from the same person, I start to think that if it looks like a bigot and quacks like a bigot, it probably is a bigot.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 09:22:13 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2006, 10:44:30 am »
Bless you all: Barb, Nipith, LJ, and David.  And I agree Nipith, having this conversation with you is much easier knowing that you all come from a place of love and acceptance, and I am grateful for the opportunity to explore our very different views, knowing that fundamentally we want the same things!

Sorry to be so negative about Oprah, y'all.  I don't care for her - haven't for a long time (no kidding, right?) and I flew off the handle in her general direction.

Oh my lordy yes Barb, we know this all too well.  I don't agree, but I don't think our respective opinions about Oprah are important.  I really do take your point about it being better to point out your straight by saying your straight, and that "I'm not gay" has a negative connotation.  It may even contribute to a fledgling gay person to think that there is something wrong with being homosexual.  But even if the entire world was positive and open about sexuality, there would be those that feel shame because they are different, and humans fear things that are unfamiliar.

But back to the issue of negativity, I do think there is a very big difference between negative connotation and bigotry, especially if the person doesn't realise they are being negative.  Several of my closest straight friends have said exactly those words, and while I heard the negative in their words I also heard the fear (that someone might think they are gay).  Now that I'm out, this negativity has no effect upon me other than to pity them.  I thought (and think): stupid straight people, thank God I don't have to worry about people thinking I am gay any more; it must really suck to be straight!  But before you say that's all fine for you after all you’re out, but what about all the people who aren't?  Well that's life isn't it?  We all have to battle with acceptance, and just like the impracticality of stopping your children from becoming ill, you just can't protect people from feeling insecure; they'll do that all by themselves.

Ok, before I finish with this thought for one night, did you notice the irony in that you were challenging Oprah and Gayle's "I'm not gay" as being negative, and you ended up being negative in the process?  This is not an accusation; I'm referring to the above quote.  Question: was I being negative by pointing this out, or the way I pointed this out?  Answer: quite possibly, or even probably.  So my question to you now is: what does all of this irony (or is it hypocrisy) mean with respect to Oprah's negativity?  Is it reasonable to even entertain a negative thought about someone who says something that has a negative connotation?  Careful, if you say yes (because they are a public figure) then you're saying we are allowed to be negative and they are not!

Something to think about... 8)
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Offline silkncense

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2006, 12:08:28 pm »
Nipith & Barb - Love having these discussions & so glad we met in person & I know what wonderful people you are.  Chris & David - Here's hoping I meet you sometime soon too (Alberta perhaps?) -

I think in the case of Richard & Cindy you have to take the way their ad appeared on face value as I assume they themselves wrote it.  I personally never saw it so cannot address the tone or wording.  Regarding Oprah, I believe the media often uses 'shorthand' esp in their headlines so it is not clear if either actually ever said, "I am not gay!" as I believe the headline was written.  I did see Gayle speak & it was clear from her comments (which I do not have as exact) that there was no negativitely intended.

Because the written word is hard to interpret due to lack of tone & facial cues, there are often misunderstandings - often even in e-mail among friends.  So when someone writes what was previously spoken the message can be confused, maybe even reversed.  If I say I'm not gay (which I may, depending on the form of the question) it would absolutely not be negative in intent.  Another person may reply, "I am straight." and say it with a negative inflection believing that the oppositive being implied is offensive.  (Does the way that was written make sense?   ???). 

While wording is obviously important, I am much more interested in watching & hearing a person.  And people speak in shorthand as well.  So, you might not hear -

Quote
"What a loss for straight women everywhere" or "Our loss is gay men's gain" (or any derivation thereof that)

But instead  "DAMN, he's gay!"  vs
                  "Damn, he's GAY!"

Just as Nipith shows, the placement of & tone of the word emphasised makes the point.

Quote
when celebs would publicly say "I'm NOT gay!" I was angry at the whole thing.

It is clear, Barb, that your knowledge of the person was more important than her mere words.  I am sure you relied primarily on visual cues & prior knowledge - (although I don't see how that woman's comment could be construed as anything but negative??!)  I clearly recall watching Scott Petersen doing an interview while his wife Lacy was missing.  He was all smiles & polish & concern.  His cell phone began ringing during the interview & he ignored it - it rang & rang & then he TURNED IT OFF!  I knew right then he'd killed his wife. 

So, whenever I read something, I often still wonder - what exactly did they mean to say?


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