Fan Fiction - Popularity Contest or Formula for Orthodoxy?

[louisev]

I started writing fan fiction, as an experiment, a couple of years ago in conjunction with some online role playing I was trying at the time.  Many of the roleplayers had selected characters from a couple of different fan fiction fandoms (ones I did not follow), and I waded into it slowly.  When I became a Brokeback Mountain fan, I found some fan fiction stories and, being a novelist, decided to try my hand at finishing the tale for myself.

Being a babe in the woods with regard to fandom and its peculiarities, I was bewildered and amazed at the range of attitudes and reactions I had to my story about Ennis moving on to find a new life, and I discovered for the first time, an active, engaged, and interested audience.  I also discovered what I first identified as a sort of popularity competition amongst fan writers for the fan audience, but upon deeper consideration, I see as a kind of orthodoxy, as in established religions.

This orthodoxy sets an expectation and rewards those authors who follow certain step patterns in the plot of a retelling of Brokeback Mountain.  To the extent that the author "hits these marks" will determine the breadth of the audience and its enthusiasm, since this orthodoxy has grown out of the collective emotional need for finishing the story in a certain set manner.  I also believe that the orthodox expectation is far more plot driven than character driven, and that the plot, here, dictates the characters'  believability.

The result of the established plot orthodoxy is that due to the high approval given to orthodox conformity, the amount of deviation in plot becomes less and less (rather than more) as time goes on.  As a result, the most widely read stories are the ones who meet the highest number of marks in the orthodox plot, and those who deviate from them will be read less, or by a specialized audience looking for "that type of story."

This is what I have observed among popular BBM fan fictions as orthodox plot elements:

1) The story must be AU - it must not end in Jack's death.  The threat of the tire iron (imminent death) must be mitigated in some way or avoided - so that Jack will not die in the course of the au tale as well.
2) Jack develops more courage to confront/deal with Ennis, forcing the issue of their relationship with him
3) Jack makes a proposal as part of forcing the relationship issue
4) Ennis balks at it (or accepts it first and complications arise, or he balks after a time delay)
5) Jack gets a chance to punish Ennis for 4), or has a crisis or complication of his own, thus leading to pain and suffering for Ennis (this is critically important.  Ennis MUST suffer at this phase of the story.)
6) Ennis goes through "the torments of hell"
7) A reconciliation or rapprochement occurs between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is contrite, and they THEN live happily ever after.

In reading a variety of AU, Canonical (where Jack dies) and original present time stories which preserve only the characters "Jack and Ennis", the audience enthusiasm and commentary seem to correlate to how many of these plot marks are hit by the author.

I have posted this to open discussion, because while I am pretty confident of my observations, here, I still don't understand why, or how, this has evolved in the few months since Brokeback Mountain was released.

[pastorfred]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. A religion seems to be forming around BBM and an orthodoxy of fanfiction is no surprise as a result. The deeply spiritual and mythological elements of the story and movie provide fertile ground for the development of a grass roots popular cultural phenomenon. The actual founding of religious institutions may or may not be the result.

I also think it is no accident that this particular kind of relgion is forming in our times. Worldwide there are ultra-right wing religious groups attempting to take over their national cultures and their own nations' political institutions. One of the characteristics of right wing takeovers is the singling out of vulnerable minorities as scapegoats for all that has gone wrong in the world. In our times, LGBT persons are the vulnerable minority.

Popular culture tends to swing like a pendulum.  In the religion forming around BBM we may be seeing the beginning of the swing in the other direction.

[twistedude]

Louisev: Being a strictly cannon writer (though I don't know why! I love all the AU stuff), I know you're right.
When I get inspired, I write. That's it. Sometimes it takes me DAYS to figure out why a character did something--as it just did with the Juarez stories...but there's usually a reason.

You forgot to mention sex. Though not completely essential--I have 3 stories with only references to sex, no actual sex at all--it's pretty important. I remember when I first read Leslie's second chapter of LBFS--whoaa! I had to re-define pornopgraphy for myself: (Oh yeah--and if it's to be het sex, Jack better be in it at least...)

PORNOGRAPHY: Something i DON'T LIKE.
  EXAUSTIVE LIST OF EXAMPLES:
       1) Okra, in any form.
       2) anything that causes more pain than present or promised pleasure.

Also: you forgot to say that everyone has his own quirky rules: some can't stand the thought of Ennis ever looking at another guy after Jack's death--er, that wouldn't be you! As far as I know,. I have lost friends because of a controversial topic in one of my fanfictions, but since nobody had asked me--nicely or otherwise--to remove it, I haven't. . Oh yeah, and Jack was never seriously interested--for more than one blow job, or one ash hauling,--in any man but Ennis. Give me a break...although i think it's basically true, it's only because he didn't live past 39.  And there was also life before Ennis...seems to me I make more enemies sticking to the cannon than anyone else does ripping Jack and Ennis out of the tragedy of the stiory and having them live happily ever after.  Of course, Leslie and MadLori write better than me, but, who'sdcounting?
Peace..and good writing is rewarded, cannon or no cannon...

edited THREE TIMES to remove offensive material...hope this is O.K.

[dragonlady]

Louise, you have made some very insightful comments.  Seems to me that there is room for every kind of story. I try to read a wide cross section of stories and I don't think its so much of a popularity contest as it is a visibility thing.  I read a lot of stuff on FF.net and Wranglers and BBSlash.  I have never seen your story posted on these forums.  I wouldn't even know about them if I hadn't come here.   

Brokebackslash has a very high readership and generates literally hundreds of comments from readers.  Seems like most people will give anything a try, controversy or no.  I remember a HUGE blowout over one fic, where the author actually turned off her LJ comments.  Think she has Ennis being a drug dealer and I don't read that one anymore.  I think most people want Ennis and Jack and when Jack isn't in the story they can't read it.  I like just about everything I read so I will read stuff where Ennis moves on, but when Ennis moves too far away from that guy I fell for in the movie, I stop reading.  Like being a drug dealer. 

But that doesn't mean there aren't people out there that like it, obviously there are people who like everything, like me.  Some things stand out, and some writers are better than others.  I write fiction but I would never, ever compare myself to Madlori or Jenna, and thats ok.  I am a fan as much as the rest of us and I see their writing as something to aspire to, to give my readers as much pleasure as they do.  I could never be jealous of someone else's talent, I would be inspired by it.  I could nevrl stop writing, and I cannot hate them for being better than me. I think again everyone has to find a niche, and stick with what works for them and don't worry about things that really in the end matter little.   

About the formula,  I think most people want to see Jack and Ennis get that happy life, because anything else was already covered in the movie and AP's story.

[pastorfred]

I recognize what opinions are like, since everybody has one, but in my not so humble opinion, there is a gold standard in alternate universe fanfiction, and that is the not so orthodox lazylfarm, A Love Born from Steel.

The gold standard for canon fanfiction is the Laramie Saga, beginning with Taking Chances, by Louisev, links to be found under Chez Tremblay on the Ennis and Ellery thread.

[MaineWriter]

I recognize what opinions are like, since everybody has one, but in my not so humble opinion, there is a gold standard in alternate universe fanfiction, and that is the not so orthodox lazylfarm, A Love Born from Steel.

The gold standard for canon fanfiction is the Laramie Saga, beginning with Taking Chances, by Louisev, links to be found under Chez Tremblay on the Ennis and Ellery thread.

While I am flattered to be considered as a gold standard, it think this is somewhat of Louise's point. Those fics that adhered to the orthodoxy and by extension, their authors, are the ones that become popular. Rather than have it be a popularity contest, maybe it is better to judge each story on its own merits. My writing style may not appeal to others, just as X's writing style does not appeal to me, even though that fic might be wildly popular.

Leslie

[notBastet]

I don't have much to contribute but have really enjoyed reading everyone's comments.  I never heard of fan fic/slash before Brokeback.  I find it fascinating that what seems to be happening in the Brokeback world has happened in other fan fic worlds. (I can't think about it too deeply right now or I sorta get myself all freaked out... is it merely a parallel for what is happening the world over?)

[magicmountain]

I read with interest your theory regarding orthodoxy in fan fics and tend to agree with this analysis. True Love along with the Environment, Peace and Human Rights often substitute for religion in this secular age.

[Marge_Innavera]

While I am flattered to be considered as a gold standard, it think this is somewhat of Louise's point. Those fics that adhered to the orthodoxy and by extension, their authors, are the ones that become popular. Rather than have it be a popularity contest, maybe it is better to judge each story on its own merits. My writing style may not appeal to others, just as X's writing style does not appeal to me, even though that fic might be wildly popular.

I've read fanfiction before, especially ffc for the Earth's Children saga ("Clan of the Cave Bear" was the first and best-known).  But this is the first time I've read any significant amount of it, and followed readers' reactions. And there are definite differences between fanfiction and conventional fiction, other than restrictions related to copyright. Those mostly center around the fact that the writer is dealing with characters and a background story that is already established and already known. Readers come to it with certain expectations.

e.g., in an independent fictional work, you could have Jack die and Ennis move on in various ways, with fewer and fewer references to Jack over the years. The reader can reasonably assume that Ennis wouldn't have forgotten him but that's just the reality when someone dies. No matter how much you loved someone, if you outlive them for a significant amount of time there gets to be a higher and higher percentage of your life that they're not actively a part of.  And the part of it when they were significant recedes further and further into the background.

But with BBM fanfiction specifically, the basic story is Ennis and Jack, and when Jack disappears from the story it gets more and more problematical. Some stories deal with that by putting in flashbacks (Widower) or having Jack in the story postmortem as a spirit (Louise's Warm Wind Blows, still my favorite of her fics). Or a combination of both, in the case of what I'm currently attempting.

Orthodoxy when applied to anything creative is, IMO, a foreshadowing of decline if people take it too seriously. What makes me uneasy about anything being touted as the "gold standard" is that it inevitably leads to a pattern of judging work mainly in the context of how well it imitates a previous creative work that's already finished.

Getting a little far off in left field here, but you can see that happening in entertainment when something is hugely successful and it's followed by a procession of thinly veiled imitations and "spinoffs", generally becoming less and less interesting with every repetition.

[magicmountain]

I've read fanfiction before, especially ffc for the Earth's Children saga ("Clan of the Cave Bear" was the first and best-known).  But this is the first time I've read any significant amount of it, and followed readers' reactions. And there are definite differences between fanfiction and conventional fiction, other than restrictions related to copyright. Those mostly center around the fact that the writer is dealing with characters and a background story that is already established and already known. Readers come to it with certain expectations.

e.g., in an independent fictional work, you could have Jack die and Ennis move on in various ways, with fewer and fewer references to Jack over the years. The reader can reasonably assume that Ennis wouldn't have forgotten him but that's just the reality when someone dies. No matter how much you loved someone, if you outlive them for a significant amount of time there gets to be a higher and higher percentage of your life that they're not actively a part of.  And the part of it when they were significant recedes further and further into the background.

But with BBM fanfiction specifically, the basic story is Ennis and Jack, and when Jack disappears from the story it gets more and more problematical. Some stories deal with that by putting in flashbacks (Widower) or having Jack in the story postmortem as a spirit (Louise's Warm Wind Blows, still my favorite of her fics). Or a combination of both, in the case of what I'm currently attempting.

Orthodoxy when applied to anything creative is, IMO, a foreshadowing of decline if people take it too seriously. What makes me uneasy about anything being touted as the "gold standard" is that it inevitably leads to a pattern of judging work mainly in the context of how well it imitates a previous creative work that's already finished.

Getting a little far off in left field here, but you can see that happening in entertainment when something is hugely successful and it's followed by a procession of thinly veiled imitations and "spinoffs", generally becoming less and less interesting with every repetition.

Some thought provoking points there Marge. I would add the thought that while the basic story is about Ennis and Jack, Ennis does emerge as the principle character (reflecting this weighting, Heath was nominated as leading actor while Jake was nominated as supporting actor). The main drama revolves around Ennis struggles, his marital dramas and divorce, his relationships with his daughters, his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, his relationship with Jack, his tragic loss and his agony in the aftermath of that. Jack's story shadows that of Ennis as a parallel but subsidiary drama. Of course the grand, doomed love affair is the centrepiece. But when Jack dies we are invited contemplate Ennis continuing his story alone, albeit haunted by Jack and spiritually still connected to him.

In the novel The Forsythe Saga the heroine Irene has a similarly doomed grand love affair with Philip Bossiney who also dies. She goes on to marry Soames Forsythe and we trace her fortunes as well as other members of the family in subsequent years. I guess it depends where we train our focus and whether we stop at one segment of Ennis' life - the Love Affair of which both Ennis and Jack are integral parts - or whether we continue on with Ennis as the main protagonist as he journeys through different parts of his life.

[twistedude]

Is that THE Magic Mountain? (Had an echo of it in one of my stories, but that part of the stoiry didn't work out, so it's--pretty much gone. Love Thoimas Mann). There are also all sorts of ways to treat Jack--fill in the blanks: someone is doing a whole sereies of the 4 lost years; there's pre-Ennis, and Jack makes a nifty ghost. There are other, apparently small, blanks that can occupy much space. These are all orthodox tratments--cannon faithful. Othwerwise, the story is frequently treated as a non-tragedy, as has already been mentioned. .

[Marge_Innavera]

In the novel The Forsythe Saga the heroine Irene has a similarly doomed grand love affair with Philip Bossiney who also dies. She goes on to marry Soames Forsythe and we trace her fortunes as well as other members of the family in subsequent years. I guess it depends where we train our focus and whether we stop at one segment of Ennis' life - the Love Affair of which both Ennis and Jack are integral parts - or whether we continue on with Ennis as the main protagonist as he journeys through different parts of his life.

There are a number of fanfics that center around his family relationships over the subsequent years.  But if the story is to continue past the point of the original ending, then Jack not being physically present has to be dealt with some way or another. Or there are the alternatives of "pre-quels" (not very common but some out there), fill-ins of scenes and characters not developed (e.g. Randall, the vacation at Don Vroe's cabin only mentioned in passing in the film) or AU. I've read examples of all these and some work, some don't just like in any other kind of fiction.

Sometimes the orthodoxy centers around how crushed Ennis is "expected" to be, and how intransigent his fears and homophobia are perceived as being. The film in particular leaves all that unresolved, as well as the question of how much Ennis is going to be affected by changing attitudes toward homosexuality, or whether he'll be affected by it at all, how his relationships with his daughters are going to evolve over time. There does seem to be a certain percentage of resistence to the idea of his being able to do anything but grieve, drink and feel guilty; and there's a limit to where a plot line can go with that.

And some of that orthodoxy is essentially a reflection of the question: whether that closet door where the shirts are at the end represents a retreat into fear or an enshrining of the relationship and what it meant. If it's the former, then there's the question of how to apply that to Jack, as he had the shirts much more hidden than Ennis does, and that isn't addressed very often.

[louisev]

I am pleased that there is such a varied and in depth discussion of the ideas of orthodoxy.  Some of you here have far more experience in fan writing and participating in "fandoms" than I do - which is very little! - and the more I learn, the more fascinated I am.

BBM Fan fiction is a very new thing, barely six months old.  In January 2006 there were barely any stories... and now they are breaking out all over.  One of the most fascinating things for me is how such a wildfire phenomenon could develop a strict orthodoxy so rapidly, and so intransigently.  I am looking forward, as a co-moderator of Bettermost's expanding Fan Fiction forum, to nurturing all visions and all types of BBM plots - even crossovers with other fandoms.  I have had a rumor from one of my own readers that she has a crossover fic nearly completed, and I would be very interested to see what that one holds!

[notBastet]

Do you guys think this orthodoxy thing is strictly a product of the fan fiction world? Or do you think there are parallels throughout society, and thus it happens in fan fiction cause we are products of our world?  (And perhaps a better question, do the first two questions make any sense?)

Kelly

[Marge_Innavera]

IMO it's definitely a reflection of human society at large. Something starts out in an undefined creative field; and eventually both power claims and fear of not being in control narrow that field down with dicta about the "right" this, the "wrong" that, this or that guru or icon who is not to be questioned, you name it. It happens with religions with depressing regularity, and they continue on their momentum for centuries after their clergy are essentially suckling a dead litter.

That means, among other things, that it's vitally important to keep as much diversity as possible.  When a significant number of people refuse to accept the power of orthodoxy at the beginning, it's less likely to metastasize past the point of no return.

[louisev]

Small town, yes!  What a great metaphor.

Everybody knows everybody, and there are neighbors' expectations and opinions to live up to... and everybody has to toe the line... because there is nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide.

[RouxB]

Crazily enough I started replying to this over a week ago. I spent over an hour composing a reply only to have a very dear friend appear at my back door at 11:30 pm barefoot, in her bathrobe with a bleeding and blackening eye. Real life and perspective can do a number on cyberlife.

Having had time to think about this, I no longer need an hour to compose a reply. I am a reader, not a writer, of fanfic (though I have written some drabbles that will never been seen by anyone but me-if that) so I come from that perspective. I will read pretty much anything, most of what I read comes to me by recommendation, though I prefer AU. I have had the "dead Jack" experience in the best way possible so really don't need to repeat it in my pleasure reading-been there and done that sadness.

I am fascinated by the degree of difference within the sameness of most of the AU fanfic. Gives me an insight into how the author interpreted the movie or book characters and how the interpretation differs from my own.

Bottom line-I can't speak to the popularity aspect as when I am compelled to write it is to arrange the world to make me happy and I suspect this is true with many other writers. And, what makes a lot of us happiest is E&J Forever

[twistedude]

E and J forever? Romeo and Juliet forever? I suppose our opinions are just an expression iof our experience, but when I read or see, or in any way expereience, a great work of art with a tragic ending, I don't dare alter it. It feels to me like a sacrilege. It makes a certain kind of sense, and it's not my business to turn it into a different kind of sense.

The odd thing is, I enjoy reading E and J forever; I just can't WRITE it...

[Marge_Innavera]

I am fascinated by the degree of difference within the sameness of most of the AU fanfic. Gives me an insight into how the author interpreted the movie or book characters and how the interpretation differs from my own.

Bottom line-I can't speak to the popularity aspect as when I am compelled to write it is to arrange the world to make me happy and I suspect this is true with many other writers. And, what makes a lot of us happiest is E&J Forever

What the discussion in this case is essentially about is the tendency of many to take the route in insisting that it isn't what would make the reader or writer 'happy' or what would be the most rewarding to them - even though fanfic writers know there will be no financial rewards forthcoming - but rather toeing the line on what plotlines, interpretations or even, in the case of some 'ultra-orthodox' authors, what reactions are "acceptable" and what not "acceptable". The result, if that approach gets its way, can be people quite wasting their time and creative energy trying to fit their reading or their work into an arbitrary mold. And when that approach gets its way, whether one compares it to a small town or uses any other metaphor, you might as well put creativity through a shredder and flush it down the toilet.

After all, in the end what good came out of the campaign to stamp out "decadent art"?   

[louisev]

Having had time to think about this, I no longer need an hour to compose a reply. I am a reader, not a writer, of fanfic (though I have written some drabbles that will never been seen by anyone but me-if that) so I come from that perspective. I will read pretty much anything, most of what I read comes to me by recommendation, though I prefer AU. I have had the "dead Jack" experience in the best way possible so really don't need to repeat it in my pleasure reading-been there and done that sadness.

How curious, Rouxb.... when I got here on the first page of the E &E thread you described yourself as a devoted reader of the Laramie Saga.  I guess I'm confused.

[notBastet]

What the discussion in this case is essentially about is the tendency of many to take the route in insisting that it isn't what would make the reader or writer 'happy' or what would be the most rewarding to them - even though fanfic writers know there will be no financial rewards forthcoming - but rather toeing the line on what plotlines, interpretations or even, in the case of some 'ultra-orthodox' authors, what reactions are "acceptable" and what not "acceptable". The result, if that approach gets its way, can be people quite wasting their time and creative energy trying to fit their reading or their work into an arbitrary mold. And when that approach gets its way, whether one compares it to a small town or uses any other metaphor, you might as well put creativity through a shredder and flush it down the toilet.

After all, in the end what good came out of the campaign to stamp out "decadent art"?   

I have enjoyed reading all the recent comments.  I'm not sure I have anything of substance to add, but alas, never one to keep my mouth shout... what worries me, is when readers, writers, whoever, start throwing out terms like Marge mentions, such as acceptable and not acceptable, it starts feeling way too much like discrimation/censorship to me.  Isn't that what part of Brokeback Mountain is about... trying to move beyond labels of acceptable and not acceptable?  What's wrong with loving, as long as there is no harming?  It's fine if you don't like something, or it's not your cup of tea, but I find rules about writing and reading to be very scary. 

[louisev]

Yes, Marge's point is well taken.  While it is clear, and unavoidable, that the majority of fan fiction readers take the route of a "happily ever after Jack and Ennis", the commitment to an orthodoxy model means that this majority dictate what constitutes an "acceptable plot."  One of the concepts is the concept of the "One true pairing" which means that the only pairing that is acceptable to be depicted, and the only one that makes the story "a real BBM fanfic" is a Jack and Ennis pairing.

But since Jack dies in the source story, the possibilities for writing in this pairing are limited to the period in which they were alive (infrequent meetings), or after Jack dies, which convicts Ennis to a life of lonely mourning.  Not exactly a wide field for exploration of same sex relationships if one follows this model.

The fan fiction philosophy here is that if it is based upon or uses characters from BBM - then by all means write it and post it.  My limitation in writing fan fiction stories is that I can't find it in me to rewrite Annie's ending of the story, and so therefore, Jack dies.  Even though I have deeply enjoyed writing Jack flashbacks, and Jack-as-a-ghost in my first story "A Warm Wind Blows", somehow, the idea of resurrecting Jack or diverting the end of the story... eludes me to date.

I may eat those words at some future time, but please nobody hold their breath.

[mvansand76]

I was writing to David (David925 whom you all know on here who will be back soon) that after reading a few fanfictions I almost got tired of Jack-and-Ennis happy endings. I thought to myself "Did I really just write that?". I don't know where that came from.

Anyway, when I read fanfiction (I don't write fanfiction, I only read):
*I think I do prefer a Jack and Ennis story (that doesn't mean there has to be a happy ending)
*I want the story and the settings to be as close to the original story and movie, no Jack and Ennis in San Francisco or Germany in the 1930's
*I like it when the dialogue is plausible and when there are references to the original story and movie

[Scott6373]

My limitation in writing fan fiction stories is that I can't find it in me to rewrite Annie's ending of the story, and so therefore, Jack dies.  Even though I have deeply enjoyed writing Jack flashbacks, and Jack-as-a-ghost in my first story "A Warm Wind Blows", somehow, the idea of resurrecting Jack or diverting the end of the story... eludes me to date.

I may eat those words at some future time, but please nobody hold their breath.

I know exactly what you mean.  I can read AU fanfics and enjoy them terrifically, but when I write, I almost feel an obligation to remain within the parameters that AP has set...out of respect.

[Seom]

Reading this post has got me thinking, i don't know if this answer is exactly along with view taken, but anyway...
I personally enjoy the stories that are not happily ever after. I don't know why, but i'm a fan of tragedy. I think that BBM was perfect the way it was, but I'll admit to wanting it to be different. I WANT Jack to live, i want them to live happily ever after, but that's what makes the story so powerful. Just the fact that they can't wrenches my heart out. Maybe it is for this fact that I personally don't like reading those "happily ever after" stories. The heart wrenching story that BBM is is very dear to me. It takes a very well written happily ever after fan fic to get me hooked. I think i enjoy the stories that end sad simply because they stay true to the movie. Just my two cents ignore them if you'd like.

[RouxB]

How curious, Rouxb.... when I got here on the first page of the E &E thread you described yourself as a devoted reader of the Laramie Saga.  I guess I'm confused.

Just back from vacation so catching up.

Why confused Louise? I am a devoted reader of the Laramie Saga-one of the first here to read it thanks to Leslie. I have read some absolutely beautiful stories by Fernly, Jeff S.-and others-that are not AU (dead Jack) and loved them. And I love the "happy ever after" because that is just how I am-I have enough reality in my reality. My thought, and excuse me if this is not what is being discussed, (said with juuusssstttt a pinch of tongue-in-cheek pissiness) from a reader perspective is that writers of AU are not necessarily trying to please their audience. My belief is that they are trying to preserve two characters and a relationship that they love. Is it predictable, lacking in imagination? Sure-lots of it. But, and I am quite willing to be wrong here, I don't see it as a premeditated attempt to become American Fanfic Idol.
That's just my happy ending mind-set. Oh, and I for one, don't give a poo about the plot elements as long as Jack is alive and not miserable at the end.

The original short story, and movie adaptation of it, are perfect for me and I would not see them changed in any way. They are what brought me here and were catalysts for change in my life. As I said, I had that sad, now I want some happy-I always want some happy.

 

[louisev]

My confusion, RouxB is your comments about not reading dead!Jack stories.  Because the Laramie Saga is definitely a Dead!Jack story... that was the source of my confusion.

[MaineWriter]

My confusion, RouxB is your comments about not reading dead!Jack stories.  Because the Laramie Saga is definitely a Dead!Jack story... that was the source of my confusion.

You know, Louise, I would not call your story dead!Jack. I may be arguing semantics here, but to me dead!Jack stories seem to be the ones where the focus on Jack is dying (often accompanied by a flashback or two of his life with Ennis). Another variation are the stories that "fill in the blanks" of the story/movie by providing more detail...but the inevitable end is still going to be that Jack dies.

In your story, yes, Jack is dead but the whole emphasis is different. His memory is treated with respect and he is an important character, in his own right, even though he is not there in his physical body. I suppose moving on!Ennis is the best descriptor (of the terms that people use) but that, unfortunately, implies that Ennis is moving on and leaving Jack behind. Yes, he moves on in your story, but Jack is certainly with him in his heart. Maybe we can call him Jack and Ennis finally united!Ennis since he has achieved an understanding of the love he shared with Jack and accepted it in his life, something he never did while Jack was alive.

Leslie

[Marge_Innavera]

While it is clear, and unavoidable, that the majority of fan fiction readers take the route of a "happily ever after Jack and Ennis", the commitment to an orthodoxy model means that this majority dictate what constitutes an "acceptable plot."  One of the concepts is the concept of the "One true pairing" which means that the only pairing that is acceptable to be depicted, and the only one that makes the story "a real BBM fanfic" is a Jack and Ennis pairing.

But since Jack dies in the source story, the possibilities for writing in this pairing are limited to the period in which they were alive (infrequent meetings), or after Jack dies, which convicts Ennis to a life of lonely mourning.  Not exactly a wide field for exploration of same sex relationships if one follows this model.

The germ of the notion of the "one true pairing" is that once one has had a relationship with a soul mate, there can be no one else. Or, in Ennis' case, anyone else would be basically 'Jack Lite.'

But that isn't how human psychology works.  Sometimes people do swear off relationships after a soul mate dies, especially if they're quite up in years although that isn't universal by any means. And generally, if a person Ennis' age (39 or 40 when the original story ends) foregoes other relationships they're either going to find some new center of their life: family, creative work, career, etc. or they're at risk for a downward spiral of depression and possible suicide. And a new relationship isn't necessarily a "replacement" for the soul mate, as if any human being can be replaced anyway. Marriages and other long-term commitments start up for all kinds of reasons and a huge amount of acreage of middle ground exists between a grand passion and decades of depression, isolation, sackcloth, ashes and alcohol. A second pairing can certainly include love and sincere commitment, and sometimes with the participants having learned and matured via the earlier relationships.

That whole question was brought up in the 'would Ennis commit suicide' thread, and it's certainly a high risk, how high possibly depending on his ongoing relationship with his daughters and possibly grandchildren if he never did meet anyone else. But it's by no means a done deal that Ennis would become a gay male Wyoming version of Queen Victoria wearing mourning for four decades.

The fan fiction philosophy here is that if it is based upon or uses characters from BBM - then by all means write it and post it.  My limitation in writing fan fiction stories is that I can't find it in me to rewrite Annie's ending of the story, and so therefore, Jack dies.  Even though I have deeply enjoyed writing Jack flashbacks, and Jack-as-a-ghost in my first story "A Warm Wind Blows", somehow, the idea of resurrecting Jack or diverting the end of the story... eludes me to date.

There are quite a few AU stories I've liked so far, including Somebody New and Madlori's "Farmingdale" series; i.e., Human Interest followed by Two Crows Joy. Generally I do like the ones that keep the characters' background, though; can't quite get into the idea of Ennis and Jack on the Titanic, in 1930s Berlin, in Paris, etc.  At present, I'm trying to read HI simultaneously with your Laramie saga, which means a lot of reading!      What I do object to, and find destructively dogmatic and limiting, is the notion that Ennis in an alternate universe union with Jack or Ennis as a depressed alcoholic are the only "acceptable" alternatives.  Insistence on the latter in particular sometimes has a distinctly vindictive cast to it.

[Scott6373]

I think that folks have an affinity, based on their own life experiences, for either AU or cononical fanfics.  I myself have found that I prefer the latter.  As far as the question that the original thread asks, I most certainly feel that fanficdom is more a popularity contest based on formulaic orthodoxies that have been accepted widely as "the only way" to write J&E's story.  There isn't much room for acceptance if the bullets that Leslie stated are followed to a greater degree.

[louisev]

er, Louise.  I was the one who started the thread and proposed the steps in the orthodox fan fiction.

[Scott6373]

Sorry dearheart

[moremojo]

I was just wanted to comment that I tend to avoid the AU stories, though I even have met someone now who writes such fanfic, and recognize that we have lots of talented writers who are giving their heartfelt all to the production of such fiction. But to me, I think it is important to respect the integrity of the original story, as it would not have the same power and resonance (again, for me) were it not for Jack's death. Jack's death is necessary to instill in Ennis (and, by implication, us) the awareness of how precious and fleeting life and love really are. So I tend to prefer the writings that pick up Ennis's story after Jack's demise, or are interpolations showing us scenes that the original tale, or film, omitted or hinted at, or that serve as prequels.

As it has been oft stated, it is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.

Just my two cents'...

Scott

[Scott6373]

I was just wanted to comment that I tend to avoid the AU stories, though I even have met someone now who writes such fanfic, and recognize that we have lots of talented writers who are giving their heartfelt all to the production of such fiction. But to me, I think it is important to respect the integrity of the original story, as it would not have the same power and resonance (again, for me) were it not for Jack's death. Jack's death is necessary to instill in Ennis (and, by implication, us) the awareness of how precious and fleeting life and love really are. So I tend to prefer the writings that pick up Ennis's story after Jack's demise, or are interpolations showing us scenes that the original tale, or film, omitted or hinted at, or that serve as prequels.

Lord we think so much alike.  I think I'm in love

[moremojo]

Lord we think so much alike.  I think I'm in love

And we're both named Scott! Hmmmm...are the stars smiling upon us?

 
Scott

[Scott6373]

Shine away...LOL

[louisev]

ok you two... get a room!

Seriously now, I do greatly appreciate what you are saying, mojo, because that is exactly my own block in writing AU stories.  Therefore I end up with my post-Jack stories which put Ennis back in the main character role, where I believe Annie had originally put him.

[MadLori]

I'm new to the forums.  Hola.

First, let me say that I write AU (I wrote "Human Interest" and "Two Crows Joy," if you're familiar with them).  I read AU.  I also read canon-fic.

In fact, I've just spent the last week reading the Laramie Saga, Louise.  And I'm quite knocked on my ass by the level of detail present there and the time you've taken to so painstakingly develop the characters, plots and relationships to the point that they attain of level of reality that goes beyond just versimilitude.  I've written and read fanfic in a bunch of fandoms over the last ten years and it is damned hard to write a story that consists almost entirely of original characters and make the readers CARE about them.  It's a very rare thing to find a writer who has developed a relationship to the point that we know their INJOKES.

And you know what else?  Reading it has made it damned hard to work on my own fic.  I go to work on my next chapter and I find myself missing Ellery and wishing I could somehow work him in.  Damn you, Louise!

My point is that I like and respect both AU and canon fics.

In reading some of the comments here, I'm detecting a little bit of disdain for those of us who read and/or write AU fics.  Inherent in statements like "I can't bear to read/write AU fics because I have such deep respect for the canon!" is the implication that the rest of us DON'T respect the canon, or love it the way it is.  If I write AU fic, I must be taking the easy way out, romanticizing things, or pandering to the wishes of the audience while I toss Annie's canon out with the bathwater and spit in the face of the storyline that we all hold dear.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know that isn't the case for me.  Just because I wanted to imagine a different outcome to the canon story doesn't mean I'm not deeply attached to that canon.  Exploring a way that the story could have ended happily while keeping the characters true to themselves is just as legitimate a way to express my feelings about the canon as if I'd kept it sacrosanct.  But if people prefer canon fics, that's their right.  If people prefer AU, that's also their right. 

I'd also like to comment on the "orthodoxies" that were brought up in the first post.  While it's true that many BBM fics use these plot points, I think I can use myself as a counterexample.  I've achieved a certain level of popularity (if that's the yardstick we're using, which is problematic in itself) with "Human Interest" and as far as I can tell, I've only employed the first and third of the seven listed plot requirements (and the third one is iffy)...although one could argue that it's the first one that's the most important.  It's also true that since I started writing HI in January, a lot of these patterns were established well after I started writing.  When I first posted HI to fanfiction.net, there were only 30 stories in the category.  Now there are over 300.

Louise, I certainly feel that your magnum opus (and that term is an understatement...how many words are you up to now?) deserves to be wildly popular and that lauds ought to be strewn in your path for writing such an ambitious, detailed and satisfying (and hawt) work of fanfiction.  But as I read your first post in this thread, I couldn't help but wonder if there wasn't a little bit of sour grapes in the question.  If some negative comments have been made about your story (and I know that some have been, which is incomphrehensible to me) or if it doesn't enjoy the readership of some other AU fics, do we really need to go searching for a reason and/or a rationalization as to why AU fics are less valid, and canon fics are more pure and therefore more deserving of readership?  I think it's a big enough sandbox for us all to play in.  And if people aren't reading the Laramie series because Jack's dead in it, well, it's their profound loss.

I will certainly be pimping it to anyone who'll stand still long enough.

[louisev]

Wow, that was some immense tribute, Lori.  And I thank you for that.

It is too bad that my theory came across as sour grapes... my motive for writing it was a deep mystification and sadness at discovering, first of all, a great resistance and downright hostility toward what has become known as dead!Jack and Moving on!Ennis stories, which I learned in the course of writing my first volume, "Taking Chances."  I would not have devoted myself with such concentration to sussing out the puzzle of the orthodoxy dilemma if it were not for the extremely violent backlash against my stories - it exceeded mere controversy, and at last forced me to abandon a forum I had started out on due to the extreme hostility of the fan readers and authors.  Many fans of my story have their own tales to tell of the negative feedback they received after speaking up to say how much they enjoyed "Laramie."

With regard to your own work, since you authored of one of the very first BBM fan fiction stories, it wouldn't be either fair or true to ascribe your work to any orthodox pattern, chiefly because you wrote one of the original fan fictions.  My comments were to describe a trend in the explosion of work that followed, which in turn gave rise to a resistance to all things that do not conform to a pattern which has become more rigid over time (speaking of the period May 2006 to the present, roughly.)

I should make it clear, however,that this forum is dedicated to welcoming all types and genres of fan fiction, and does not favor one over the other.  I personally have not been able to write alternate universe stories, simply because my imagination does not go there, however, that is not to imply that these stories are less welcome on Bettermost. There are two moderators here, myself and Leslie (MaineWriter), and she has written ONLY AU stories, as I have written only canon stories. 

Every author (or fans, for that matter) can establish a thread for any stories that they would like to see here, and discuss them, according to the loose guidelines we have set out.

Welcome to Bettermost!

[Marge_Innavera]

I'm new to the forums.  Hola.

Hi Lori, just wanted to say "welcome."  I'm in the middle of reading both Human Interest and Two Crows Joy at once, LOL!

This is a good venue to discuss fanfiction, we are "respectful of each others' opinions."

[RouxB]

Welcome Lori and thank you for giving us your perspective-I echo many of your sentiments.

roux

[Beatrice]

Perhaps I'm a crazy person, but I look at the skill of the writer first. Is the prose compelling, well crafted and interesting? Does the plot move forward, is it original? Is there a connection made betweeen characters and reader? If the answer to any of those questions is no, then I move on.

Granted, I really don't have much spare time to read, but I do try. Most are dropped because of the amatuerish style of writing, or the total lack of plot.

Any writer, if he/she is good enough can make the reader believe, move them outside their comfort zone and take them on a journey that they never knew they wished to embark upon. Those writers in this fandom are few and far between. And the loyal readers of these fics stay not because of high schoolesque cliches, (which abound in this fandom) but because the writer is a storyteller in the true sense of the word.

I applaud any writer who can touch someone else with their vision.

B

[Jeff Wrangler]

It makes me sad to read that, apparently, some people are (figuratively) turning up their noses at certain types of fanfic.   

I mean, "Hunh?" Doesn't it just come down to a matter of taste? And to each of us bringing our own life experiences to the fanfic, just as we bring our own life experiences to Annie Proulx's story and to the film?

I've written a couple of canon stories (short, stand-alone) because something in me compelled me to write them. Then I turned, almost with a sense of embarrassment, to writing a couple of AU stories, and for much the same reason--something in me compelled me to write them. If I don't read "moving on Ennis" stories, it's only because for a complex combination of reasons I can't emotionally deal with the idea of Ennis moving on. Someone who's judgment I trust and respect tells me the "Laramie Saga" is wonderful. Have I read it? No. Will I read it? I don't expect to. Do I disdain it? Heck no. It's just not for me--for reasons that I mentioned above.

Ol' Brokeback is a pretty big mountain. There ought to be room for everybody.

[mvansand76]

Perhaps I'm a crazy person, but I look at the skill of the writer first. Is the prose compelling, well crafted and interesting? Does the plot move forward, is it original? Is there a connection made betweeen characters and reader? If the answer to any of those questions is no, then I move on.

Nah, you are not crazy! I look at it the same way, if the style or dialogue or storyline does not appeal to me, I simply stop reading and move on to something else.

[Marge_Innavera]

I look at it the same way, if the style or dialogue or storyline does not appeal to me, I simply stop reading and move on to something else.

That's a much better yardstick than "is this a type that I've decided I don't read? It is? Then screw the quality - I'm not reading it." Unfortunately, the latter seems to be the norm.

[louisev]

I read a recent commentary suggesting that authors should go further than the rating systems established in the communities (pairing, rating, etc.) and give a summary of potentially controversial subjects so that readers can go in "forearmed."  But this is Brokeback Mountain fan fiction... isnt there enough heartache in the original story we have all survived, without trying to dodge the fan fic heartbreak we might suffer by reading something too sad?

[notBastet]

Perhaps I'm a crazy person, but I look at the skill of the writer first. Is the prose compelling, well crafted and interesting? Does the plot move forward, is it original? Is there a connection made betweeen characters and reader? If the answer to any of those questions is no, then I move on.

Granted, I really don't have much spare time to read, but I do try. Most are dropped because of the amatuerish style of writing, or the total lack of plot.

Any writer, if he/she is good enough can make the reader believe, move them outside their comfort zone and take them on a journey that they never knew they wished to embark upon. Those writers in this fandom are few and far between. And the loyal readers of these fics stay not because of high schoolesque cliches, (which abound in this fandom) but because the writer is a storyteller in the true sense of the word.

I applaud any writer who can touch someone else with their vision.

B

Hi Beatrice,

My name is Kelly - I don't think we've met....  I don't have anything to add really, just sitting here nodding my head in agreement.  I really like some canons and I really like some AUs, and there is plenty of stuff in between that doesn't hit home with me, for whatever reason.  What I like most of all, is being able to discuss strengths and weaknesses of stories I follow in a calm, civilized fashion...  To me, it's not about bashing whatever it is you don't like, it's about trying to learn something and build something on whatever it is you have chosen to read.

 
Thanks for the commentary,
Kelly

PS - Jeff, we haven't met either, but I'm nodding my head in agreement with you as well.

[Beatrice]

Hi, Kelly!

I agree completely.

Somewhere along the way, some folks have forgotten why we are all here. Jack and Ennis, Brokeback Mountain and a devotion to the written word.

B

[midwest-girl]

Hi, Kelly!

I agree completely.

Somewhere along the way, some folks have forgotten why we are all here. Jack and Ennis, Brokeback Mountain and a devotion to the written word.

B

I agree with you both.  There is plenty of room for all kinds of stories and different interpretations of the characters. 

[Helen]

Maybe we could ALL start being brutally honest about the fics we think are crap.  It'd cut down the amount posted for sure, 'cos I bet some of the folk dishing it out would be buying shares in Kleenex for the forseeable...

Or perhaps we could all pick apart and stomp on the ones we consider to be less than absolutely perfect.  Hey! Who needs a fandom anyway? 

These people who are so vehement in their hatred for some fics are no different to other fundamentalists.  Well, maybe they haven't got any current plans to blow up planes, yet, but I expect they'd be burning the books given half a chance.

[louisev]

Buying stock in Kleenex, now there's an idea, Helen.

Let me go on record to say that of all the fics I have read and tried to read... I have always very much enjoyed yours!  And I can't tell you how much it pleases me to say that, too!

[moremojo]

Hmmmm....it seems that my offering of my own preferences (even more than I hope they can be described as opinions, although they are that too) seems to have been misconstrued as some kind of descriptive admonition as to how our fandom writers should proceed.

Banish the thought! Far be it for me to prescribe the paths others wish to pursue--I mainly wished to state my own biases and concerns; I never anticipate these to be universally shared, and do not judge others who may feel differently (and obviously many do). I have friends who have written AU stories; I have met one of these lovely people face to face. I have read enough of the AU canon of stories to recognize there is real talent and heart being put into their creation--that's wonderful and beautiful, and I do not begrudge anyone seeking these out and enjoying them.

Of course, Brokeback is large enough to encompass all our desires and interpretations. That is as it should be. And my own little shadowy copse of death preserved and grieved over need not impinge on the sunnier slopes that many others wish to explore. So I hope we can be friends and allies...if not, it is not due to my lack of effort to extend understanding and good will.

Peace,
Scott

[louisev]

Mojo,

Our official rubric on Fan Fiction is that ALL types, genres (if we could be so pompous as to call them genres) are welcome, and that every author (or fan for that matter) is free to create a topic for a discussion, a fic, or a subject in the realm of discussion.  Here there is no popularity contest, and there is room on the mountain for all fics, and a tolerance for all opinions, without the need to be fearful of personal attack or unwanted criticism.

This is the official philosophy of Bettermost: to finish the story, in Annie Proulx's words... in our own lives, and in our own fics!

[notBastet]

Hmmmm....it seems that my offering of my own preferences (even more than I hope they can be described as opinions, although they are that too) seems to have been misconstrued as some kind of descriptive admonition as to how our fandom writers should proceed.

I didn't take it that way Scott... you can count me friend and ally, 'kay?

I think we are all just enjoying being able to say what we think... as Louise said, "without the need to be fearful of personal attack or unwanted criticism."

 
Happy reading,
Kelly

[midwest-girl]

I didn't take it that way Scott... you can count me friend and ally, 'kay?

I think we are all just enjoying being able to say what we think... as Louise said, "without the need to be fearful of personal attack or unwanted criticism."

 
Happy reading,
Kelly

I agree with you guys, at least in part.  I think criticism is fine, so long as it's respectful and is critical of the story, not the author.  I mean, I was an English major in college and at least half our time in class was spent criticizing literature and characterizations.  I think that's a fundamental part of reading and writing.  But I also agree that personal attacks are wrong and spiteful criticism has no place on these types of forums.

[Marge_Innavera]

I think criticism is fine, so long as it's respectful and is critical of the story, not the author.  I mean, I was an English major in college and at least half our time in class was spent criticizing literature and characterizations. 

I was a theatre major, and we did the same. The standard for plots was whether they were believable, had good pacing and held the reader's/viewer's interest among other objective standards. And characters' actions were judged on how they fit into the overall plot/theme/characterizations rather than whether or not their actions were consistent with what readers/viewers wanted them to be doing.  Beatrice gave a pretty good summary of 'criticizing while you read' a page back.

[Beatrice]

Good critical analysis, devoid of emotion and personal agenda - that's someting I'm always open for. Alas, that is not likely to happen for anyone when names and such get in the way.

Perhaps it's the stories themselves that should be posted anonymously, not the comments. This way a fic could be judged on merit alone and not the popularity of it's author.

Of course, that still woudn't stop the gangs of thugs running around behind the scenes.

B

[notBastet]

Interesting suggestion... having authors be anonymous...
 
I remember my senior seminar class in college.. we all had to grade each other and sign our names, and of course we all had to speak, and our teachers reviewed all of our comments as well...  so you wanted to sound intelligent so the teachers would know you were paying attention, you wanted to sound intelligent to impress your friends/future colleagues, but of course you didn't want to come across as mean or arrogant, as you knew you would also be subjected to criticism/review...

Well, I think I digress a little... enjoyed the trip down memory lane, regardless.