Author Topic: Lies and deception  (Read 8897 times)

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2006, 12:35:07 pm »
When they were talking to anyone who thought they knew them, they were actually lying about who they were and what was important to them.  Looked at from that facet, the constant dishonesty required is breathtaking.

How did living with this chronic deception affect them in the long term?  How did it affect their sense of integrity?  What were they feeling toward the people who cared about them, whom they were deceiving?  Did they occasionally or even frequently consider coming clean with at least one person in their lives in Riverton or Childress?  How could they bear the loneliness of not really being known by anyone?


I think those of us deeply touched by BBM resonated somehow with this particular issue - in what way are we suffering lonliness, isolation, deception, compromised integrity, etc., because of hiding aspects of who we are.  How deeply closeted we are will vary from person-to-person.  Maybe the lie is about our sexuality, or maybe it's about something else that others don't even perceive as shameful or bad, but we do.

My 'coming out' since BBM isn't about being gay or even something that has words connected to it.  It's been about finding a way to live my life authentically - to not need to hide or apologize about who I am, and to find a way to change those things I still want to see different.  I don't think I'm unique in this journey.  So many of us are doing the same...finding expression in our lives in a way that honors who we truly are.

Concealing and revealing is always a very tricky balance.  Not telling parts of your story for your own reasons is one thing - but hiding who you are out of fear drains vital energy from every area of life.  I think I'm just recovering my full energy after 41 years of hiding away in ways I didn't even realize I was doing.  I don't think I can ever go back.
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2006, 01:23:36 pm »
"I didn't think we'd get into this again...Yeah, I did, redlined it all the way here from Texas." Even then, Ennis turns somber right after that comment.

Lee, in my recollection Ennis smiles or laughs after that comment (it's what I believe Elle called the "acts with his ear" moment). Then Jack asks "What about you?" and Ennis looks kind of self-conscious and sheepish but in a pleased way. It's only after Jack says, "What are we gonna do now?" that Ennis turns somber, having to think about the fact that, in his mind, there's nothin they CAN do.

The closest Ennis ever gets to tender is the "sending up a prayer of thanks", but he has to make a joke out of it. 

I think Jack prompts him to say more than he's able to say when he asks "for what?" Ennis pauses, as if to say, "Well, duh!" -- there's the implication that his original comment kind of speaks for itself, which of course it does. Ennis would be incapable of explicitly responding, "for sending you back into my life" or whatever. So he jokes. But I'm certain Jack gets his meaning.

Also, IMO the closest Ennis ever gets to tender is in the dozy embrace flashback, which is pretty darn tender.

Ennis is like a kid in this scene, scared of Jack's anger, biting his nails, scuffing his boots in the dirt and not looking Jack in the eye. He cries like a little kid, snuffling and rubbing his eyes, blaming it on Jack, ain't nothin, goin nowhere.

To me, Ennis doesn't seem at all little-kidlike here, nor would I consider him "scared of Jack's anger" in a little kid sense. Little kids get scared not because they're afraid of hurting someone's feelings but because they are afraid they'll get in trouble and be punished -- it's a self-centered kind of fear. Ennis is afraid of disappointing and hurting the man he loves -- it's the opposite of self-centered.

Similarly, when Ennis cries in that scene, it's the expression of decades of self-denial and repression and disappointment and frustration and worry and paranoia, coupled with panic that he might be losing the love of his life. That doesn't strike me as being what little kids typically cry about.

Nor, while we're on the subject, would I compare Jack's crying after the post-divorce scene to a little kid, nor for that matter any of the crying scenes in the movie. There's a whole thread around here somewhere on crying. I like to see people crying when it's an honest expression of feelings (well, I don't mean I like the fact that they're sad, only that they're able to be open about it). To compare it to a little kid's crying sounds to me like calling it immature. But I think men who are able to cry are, at least in that way, showing a degree of maturity.

My 'coming out' since BBM isn't about being gay or even something that has words connected to it.  It's been about finding a way to live my life authentically - to not need to hide or apologize about who I am, and to find a way to change those things I still want to see different.

So nicely put, Celeste.

Offline coffeecat33

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2006, 02:17:33 pm »
Perhaps I should have said, his mannerisms were child-like.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006, 03:24:48 pm »
Perhaps I should have said, his mannerisms were child-like.

Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree with that, too.

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2006, 03:58:08 pm »
I think with gay men, the message hit home so well because of all the lies and deception. Most of us, especially those with some age on us, know well what it is like to both out right lie about who we are, and just constantly omit anything that would be inappropriate. Try doing this with a few drinks in you, it ain't easy. The scope of it is breath taking, and miserable. While not responcible for the world that put us in a closet, we are as individual responcible for getting out of our closets. Ennis could only finally accept how much Jack loved him standing in a closet, where the shirts had been hidden for 20  years. 

What you have to bear in mind this story take pace between 1963 and 1983. How much has the world changed since 1983? I had known about AIDS for one year, there was no internet to speak of, people were freaking out over "Making Love", you can fill in the rest.

The drinking, self medicating, is a part of it as well. I am only now realizing how being gay, this one facet of my life effects every part. I have come out to several people and am so glad I did, I feel richer and feel my relationships has more intergrity than those I am in the closet about. I have learned to be upfront from the get go, before investing emotionally with someone.  Our Boys had a mighty hard row to hoe.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 03:59:41 pm by shakestheground »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2006, 04:11:16 pm »
I think with gay men, the message hit home so well because of all the lies and deception. Most of us, especially those with some age on us, know well what it is like to both out right lie about who we are, and just constantly omit anything that would be inappropriate. Try doing this with a few drinks in you, it ain't easy.

Wow, I'll bet. One of the things I value most about both the movie and my post-movie interactions with people on this board is the chance to understand at a deeper level just how hard that must be. And I would think a lot of straight people -- including those who liked the movie but in a more casual way -- gained some empathy for that experience.

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2006, 05:17:53 pm »
This thread's title 'Lies and deception' is more elegantly intelligent than 'When the Beard Is Too Painful to Remove' (New York Times, August 3, 2006), but you may find today's article on 'Brokeback Marriages' has some something to say...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/fashion/03marriage_bg.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
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Offline Meryl

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2006, 12:31:57 pm »
bump
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Offline TexRob

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Lies and deception
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2006, 02:29:51 pm »
Quote
How did living with this chronic deception affect them in the long term?  How did it affect their sense of integrity?  What were they feeling toward the people who cared about them, whom they were deceiving?  Did they occasionally or even frequently consider coming clean with at least one person in their lives in Riverton or Childress?  How could they bear the loneliness of not really being known by anyone?

Is part of what draws us to them the fact that we feel like we know them better than anyone else in their lives ever did (other than each other)?

Well, I'll pick up the "bump" while I'm posting today and add a couple of thoughts here.

The movie is about the closet.  That's what comes through in every frame of it.  Regardless of the differing interpretations of different aspects of it, this is what holds it all together as a cohesive work of art.

To say how Ennis and Jack felt is almost pointless to those of us who experienced the devastation of the closet firsthand.  But the real value of Brokeback Mountain is that this is the first work of any kind which has succeeded in conveying that feeling to people who've never been in the closet.

Being gay, I've often tried to describe what it feels like to other people.  I gave up years ago because no words could describe the closet.  That bothered me.  With all the books written on the subject, why didn't non-gays seem to "get it," the way we eventually got an inkling of what it's like to be black or Jewish, or some other minority?

The answer, I concluded as a result of the Brokeback Mountain phenomenon, is that gays were trying to describe the closet using the wrong medium!  For us, writing about it or talking about it wasn't working. This was a problem that had to be shown instead.  Film turned out the be the perfect medium to use.

As to the question of how the constant deception affected their integrity, what I can say is that the movie shows us how it did.   It doesn't tell us or write us -- it shows us.  What it shows, I can assure anyone who's not gay, is dead-on accurate. To answer the next question, though, I don't think Ennis dared ever consider telling anyone.  Jack considered it only because of the extreme effect the closet was having on his sense of self, which his sexuality was part of, but he paid for it with his life.

What's unique about the cruelty of the closet is that the person in it is totally isolated from his own family.  The Thanksgiving scene showing Ennis sitting as a guest at his own family's table makes this point better than millions of spoken or written words ever could.  At least if you were black or Jewish, you'd have a family to turn to.  Gays don't even have that.   

For many, the loneliness did become unbearable.  That's why people would risk life and limb by revealing themselves, and that's originally what drove the concept of coming out -- the suffering of Ennis and the murder of Jack. 

Today, the closet still exists, especially in third-world hellholes outside the West, but younger gays usually have it much easier that older ones.  I think that's why a lot of them saw the movie as a sort of anachronism and didn't relate to it. 

Poverty is a secondary theme of the movie, and many gays can't connect with the movie because they can't understand why the two couldn't just pick up and leave.  They may perceive Ennis and Jack's experiences as overwrought, but the surprising thing about the movie is that for the first time, straight people could relate to suffering that intense just by seeing it.  Perhaps in Ennis and Jack's pain they see aspects of their own lives.  That is, maybe they have their own closets about particular subjects.  That's possibly one reason we feel as if we know Ennis and Jack better than E&J's own families did.  In fact, we did.

Ang Lee was able to universalize the problem so that all could see it.






« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 02:42:39 pm by TexRob »

Offline Meryl

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Re: Lies and deception
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2006, 03:21:54 pm »
What a beautiful post.  Thank you TexRob.

The thing that most blew me away about Brokeback Mountain was exactly what you said:

As to the question of how the constant deception affected their integrity, what I can say is that the movie shows us how it did.   It doesn't tell us or write us -- it shows us.

No overheated plot machinations.  No hitting us over the head with obvious symbols.  Ang Lee just showed us what happened to these two men.  The utter simplicity of it is devastating all by itself.

Quote
Ang Lee was able to universalize the problem so that all could see it.

I know.  What an amazing artist and human being Ang Lee is!
Ich bin ein Brokie...