Author Topic: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider  (Read 49494 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« on: June 06, 2009, 11:55:05 am »
June 6, 2009
Op-Ed Columnist
Abortion Wars, the First Time Around
By KATE MANNING


At first glance, the recent killing of the abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in Kansas appears to be a modern phenomenon, the heinous byproduct of the politics of the last several decades. In fact, Dr. Tiller is just the latest in a line of brave people who have died for providing abortions. Perhaps the most infamous of these was a midwife named Ann Lohman, who killed herself in New York in 1878 after decades of harassment.

Lohman, who called herself Madame Restell, was an immigrant from Gloucestershire, England, who started out selling “female pills” to “regulate” women. The medicines — mostly herbs, perhaps some opium — promised relief from an “obstructed womb” and “suppressed” menstruation. “Not to be used when *******,” declared one of the many coy ads she placed, “as miscarriage may occur.”

In the event that the pills did not, in fact, induce miscarriage, Lohman offered a procedure in her offices, charging $20 for poor women, and as much as $100 for her increasingly wealthy clientele. She also boarded pregnant ladies, delivered babies, placed infants for adoption and conducted sex education classes.

In partnership with her husband, Charles Lohman — also known as “Dr. Mauriceau,” to appeal to the Francophile vanities of the carriage trade — Madame Restell grew rich from her thriving mail-order business, and even had agents in Boston, Philadelphia and Providence, R.I. She drove her fine carriage through Central Park, creating a scandal. The press delighted in describing her wardrobe, her dresses of silk and velvet, her hat with its red feather, and her ostentatious five-story house, with its lush gardens and stables, its tessellated marble entry and grand fireplaces, which she had built in 1862 on Fifth Avenue and 52nd Street. The neighbors were said to ridicule her tacky window dressings.

Lohman’s wealth and unrepentant behavior made her a tabloid favorite. The New York Herald, The National Police Gazette and The Polyanthos called her a “hag of misery,” “a modern Thug of civilized society,” and the lady of “the death’s head and the marrow bones.” Abortion, with its drama of illicit sex and romance gone sour, was, and remains, a sensation that sells news.

It has also long inspired angry protests. In a riot organized in 1846 by the newspaper publisher George Dixon, a mob surrounded Lohman’s house and chanted, “Hanging’s too good for her!” and “This house is built on babies’ skulls.”

Zealous prosecutors pursued Lohman almost from the start, even though abortion laws were weak and violations difficult to prosecute, as witnesses were reluctant to come forward and early pregnancy could not be proved. Even so, from 1839 to 1877, Lohman was arrested at least five times and jailed for months without bail. She spent countless hours and dollars defending herself against charges and rumors (that there was a special sewer built between her house and the Hudson River, to dispose of corpses; that she was responsible for the unsolved murder of a cigar girl, a case that Edgar Allan Poe used as the basis for a story, “The Mystery of Marie Rogêt”).

She was convicted only once, however, and served a year in the penitentiary on Blackwell’s (now Roosevelt) Island on misdemeanor charges. It was widely believed that she escaped harsher punishment by threatening to reveal the names of her patients — the mistresses, daughters and wives of the rich and powerful.

Her published letters suggest that Lohman was passionately committed to the idea of providing reproductive health care to women. When the authorities moved to stop the publication of ads for her services — on the grounds that birth control and abortifacients corrupted women — Madame Restell wrote to The Herald: “Would your wives, and your sisters, and your daughters, if once absolved from fear, all become prostitutes? I cannot conceive how men who are husbands, brothers or fathers can give utterance to an idea so intrinsically base and infamous.”

Though abortion by the untrained — then and now — is a dangerous procedure, no woman was ever proved to have died at Lohman’s hands. Indeed, testimony in her trials suggested that Madame Restell was a professional who cared deeply for her patients, staying with them overnight and nursing them with kind words. One patient testified that Lohman “told me to take great care, as she should feel anxious until she saw or heard from me.”

But in the 1870s, Ann Lohman finally met her match in the religious crusader Anthony Comstock, who persuaded Congress to prohibit the sale or distribution of materials that could be used for contraception or abortion, or the sending of such materials by mail. As a special agent of the United States Post Office, Comstock entrapped Lohman by posing as a husband seeking abortion services for a lady. When she provided him with some tablets, he returned and arrested her — accompanied by two reporters. She faced years in jail.

Despondent, fearing the shame that would come upon her family during a long trial and convinced that another stint in prison would kill her, Lohman climbed into her marble bathtub on the April morning her trial was to start, and slit her own throat. She was 66.

“A bloody ending to a bloody life,” Comstock commented upon hearing of her death. The newspapers echoed his sentiments. “The end of sin is death,” wrote The New York Tribune, and The Times editorialized that Lohman’s death was “a fit ending to an odious career.”

Lohman’s death did not put an end to abortion, nor to the battle fought over it. The murder of Dr. George Tiller will not accomplish those ends either.

Kate Manning, the author of the novel “Whitegirl,” is working on a novel based on Ann Lohman.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/06/opinion/06manning.html?th&emc=th

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 12:26:05 pm »
Interesting  news story Serious Crayons.  I wonder how her herbs and opium really helped ladies.

Its gross about the rumors "that there was a special sewer built between her house and the Hudson River, to dispose of corpses"


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 12:35:12 pm »
Interesting  news story Serious Crayons.  I wonder how her herbs and opium really helped ladies.

Well, there are certain herbs that are said to induce miscarriage, though not completely reliably. If you google "herbs" and "miscarriage" there are a bunch of articles. So I would guess her product was sometimes effective.



Offline Mandy21

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 12:40:52 pm »
Prostitutes in the olden days had herbs and liquids they drank which they took the day after that might induce miscarriage.

Interesting article.  I'll have to read up on her.  Typically, a woman committing suicide takes pills.  I cannot imagine one slitting their own throat in a bathtub, good God.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 12:50:54 pm »
Oops, I forgot to mention the source of the article. It was the NY Times. I'll add a link.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2009, 02:21:26 pm »
Thanks for posting.

Just goes to show how the deeply needed Mrs. Lohman's services were and how scarce they were if she was able to become so fabulously wealthy providing them.

In those days women used to write their wills before giving birth because death was so common.  Yet the prevailing culture was that a good women serviced their husband's sexual needs even if it killed them, or if they grew too afraid, cut him off leaving her to a lifetime of celibacy and he to either be celibate with her or visit prostitutes - who also were in fear of unwanted pregnancies that could kill them.  Basically those women lived in a world of "take the cock and take the consequences".  Any attempt to avoid the "consequences" - for women to try to be like men in that they could enjoy sexual relations without fear of death - was instantly deemed as irreligious, immoral and/or illegal.  Only men were supposed to enjoy sex without fear.

Tragic that in many parts of the world - including a country supposedly as western and advanced as the U.S. - that that attitude still remains.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2009, 02:33:42 pm »
Fascinating bit of history, even to a guy! Thanks, Katherine.

And doesn't it just show that the wealthy have always been able to "take care" of an inconvenient pregnancy?  :-\  I think that's come up in discussions of Lureen.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 02:41:39 pm »
Wikipedia has an informative article about the history of abortion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2009, 02:46:27 pm »
Denying women free and easy access to contraception and/or abortion is and has always been repression of women, pure and simple and heinous. Patriarchal society, taking the control of their bodies away from the women themselves. It represents misogyny and nothing else. That is and will remain my personal opinion.

Articles such as this one does nothing to change my view.

Calling the repression of women pro-life is and has always been disingenuous IMO. I wonder how many children born because Ann Lohmann couldn't provide her services any more did actually receive support,compassion and help to improve their lives from Mr. Comstock and his ilk? I bet all those male pillars of morality ever contributed was shaming the unwed mothers (and making ample use of their services if they were forced into prostitution to support themselves and their child), and making sure those children felt the stigma of being illegitimate all their lives.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2009, 02:57:46 pm »
Articles such as this one does nothing to change my view.

OK, but wait -- am I misunderstanding something? The article isn't in conflict with your view, is it?


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 02:59:55 pm »
No, it isn't. I should rather have said; This article reinforces my view.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2009, 03:02:46 pm »
No, it isn't. I should rather have said; This article reinforces my view.

OK, thanks. That's what I figured you meant, but I wanted to make sure.  :)




Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2009, 03:07:17 pm »
Thanks for asking back, K and for clarifying, M. I also wondered.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2009, 03:10:26 pm »
Denying women free and easy access to contraception and/or abortion is and has always been repression of women, pure and simple and heinous. Patriarchal society, taking the control of their bodies away from the women themselves. It represents misogyny and nothing else. That is and will remain my personal opinion.

Articles such as this one does nothing to change my view.

Calling the repression of women pro-life is and has always been disingenuous IMO. I wonder how many children born because Ann Lohmann couldn't provide her services any more did actually receive support,compassion and help to improve their lives from Mr. Comstock and his ilk? I bet all those male pillars of morality ever contributed was shaming the unwed mothers (and making ample use of their services if they were forced into prostitution to support themselves and their child), and making sure those children felt the stigma of being illegitimate all their lives.


Agree.  It's all about control, IMO.  I've stopped calling them "pro-life" and started calling them "anti-choice".

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2009, 03:13:18 pm »
Agree.  It's all about control, IMO.  I've stopped calling them "pro-life" and started calling them "anti-choice".
I fully agree

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 03:25:00 pm »
Yup. I'm calling them anti-choice too, have done so for quite a while, because that's what it's really all about.

I've been chagrined to see how easily both sides in the debate has accepted and respected the abortion opponents' use of "pro-life".

I remember driving into Denver last year I saw a car in front of us with this big bumper sticker with the picture of a foetus and the words "Woman, behold your son" pus some "pro-life" logo. It made a deep impression on me to witness a person who would use his religion to try to make random women who saw that sticker feel guilt and remorse over making a very difficult personal choice. To me that was all about trying to shame vulnerable women he happened to come across, and making them doubt their own decision-making powers, robbing them of their integrity. He probably felt like a bigger, better person for displaying that sticker.  :-X

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 03:32:20 pm »
It made a deep impression on me to witness a person who would use his religion to try to make random women who saw that sticker feel guilt and remorse over making a very difficult personal choice. To me that was all about trying to shame vulnerable women he happened to come across, and making them doubt their own decision-making powers, robbing them of their integrity. He probably felt like a bigger, better person for displaying that sticker.

And robbing them of their peace of mind.  Basically it was a below the belt emotional punch.  You're exactly right, Mikaela, that's exactly what that bumper sticker's message was.  The driver probably not only felt self-righteous about that bumper sticker, he - and it was likely a he - was all about showing women their "place" - at the mercy of a shame culture.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2009, 03:57:55 pm »
It was a "he" - I caught a few glimpses of the driver.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2009, 04:39:46 pm »
Agree.  It's all about control, IMO.  I've stopped calling them "pro-life" and started calling them "anti-choice".

With the pro-life and the pro-choice monikers---both are noted as positives. If you choose to call the pro-lifers "anti-choice" -- then you won't mind being called "anti-life"?
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2009, 05:17:05 pm »
[ -- then you won't mind being called "anti-life"?[/b][/color]
Aren´t you forgetting that the person in this scenario, that is undoubtfully "alive" is the woman?

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2009, 05:27:09 pm »
Aren´t you forgetting that the person in this scenario, that is undoubtfully "alive" is the woman?


She is. But she is not always the only one who is alive. And the baby is not always killed in order to save the woman's life. The baby has no choice in the matter does he? The woman has a choice to use birth control. (In the instances that do not threaten a mother's life.)
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2009, 05:44:27 pm »
She is. But she is not always the only one who is alive. And the baby is not always killed in order to save the woman's life. The baby has no choice in the matter does he? The woman has a choice to use birth control. (In the instances that do not threaten a mother's life.)

Life ain't that simple. People make mistakes and I for one don't think a woman should be punished for life. Or the kid for that mather, perhaps growing up in a home where he/she is not wanted or loved. And just look at the millions of women who are taught by the catholic church that birth control is a sin (as well as abortion). Woman have suffered for so long because of the anti-abortion laws still in place in many countries. A woman's main purpose is not to breed and she has not a responsability to do so simply because society think she should.







Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2009, 05:53:29 pm »
Back to my point.

If the pro-choice people want to call the pro-life people "anti-choice", then the pro-choice people shouldn't mind being called "anti-life".
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2009, 05:59:01 pm »
I would personally be called what I am. Pro-choice.

Just as the anti-abortion crowd is Anti-choice.

No-one is anti-life. To indicate so makes no sense and borders on an insult IMO. Though those who are anti-choice would take away from women some important parts of their lives - the autonomy over their own bodies and sexuality.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2009, 06:05:09 pm »
Back to my point.

If the pro-choice people want to call the pro-life people "anti-choice", then the pro-choice people shouldn't mind being called "anti-life".


But that would be inaccurate. Pro-life people oppose giving women the right to choose. So, anti-choice. Pretty straightforward. But pro-choice people don't oppose life. They don't insist that all pregnant women should have abortions. They just want women to have the option, the choice. So, pro-choice.


Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2009, 06:07:14 pm »
I would personally be called what I am. Pro-choice.

Just as the anti-abortion crowd is Anti-choice.

No-one is anti-life. To indicate so is an insult IMO.

To indicate that I, a pro-lifer, am anti-choice is just as insultling---and I didn't bring it up.

It's all a matter of perspective and if you insist on saying that a pro-lifer is anti-choice when pro-lifers give the choice to the child to live---and pro-lifers give the choice to the woman to use birth control---then I will insist on calling the pro-choice people anti-life as they ARE taking a life.

What's good for one is good for the other. You feel that you are on the high road. I feel that I am.

I can respect your perspective only as far as you respect mine. If you are pro-choice, I am pro-life.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2009, 06:08:19 pm »
For some reason, this appears to be a day for abortion stories. Someone I know posted this on Facebook, even though it's five years old. It's from Ms. Magazine.

http://msmagazine.com/summer2004/womanandherdoctor.asp


ESSAY | summer 2004
* This essay was nominated as a National Magazine Awards finalist. Congratulations to Martha Mendoza.

Between a Woman and Her Doctor

A Story About Abortion You Will Never Forget

by Martha Mendoza


I could see my baby's amazing and perfect spine, a precise, pebbled curl of vertebrae. His little round skull. The curve of his nose. I could even see his small leg floating slowly through my uterus.

My doctor came in a moment later, slid the ultrasound sensor around my growing, round belly and put her hand on my shoulder. “It’s not alive,” she said.

She turned her back to me and started taking notes. I looked at the wall, breathing deeply, trying not to cry.

I can make it through this, I thought. I can handle this.

I didn’t know I was about to become a pariah.

I was 19 weeks pregnant, strong, fit and happy, imagining our fourth child, the newest member of our family. He would have dark hair and bright eyes. He’d be intelligent and strong — really strong, judging by his early kicks.

And now this. Not alive?

I didn’t realize that pressures well beyond my uterus, beyond the too bright, too-loud, too-small ultrasound room, extending all the way to boardrooms of hospitals, administrative sessions at medical schools and committee hearings in Congress, were going to deepen and expand my sorrow and pain.


On November 6, 2003, President Bush signed what he called a “partial birth abortion ban,” prohibiting doctors from committing an “overt act” designed to kill a partially delivered fetus. The law, which faces vigorous challenges, is the most significant change to the nation’s abortion laws since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled abortion legal in Roe v. Wade in 1973. One of the unintended consequences of this new law is that it put people in my position, with a fetus that is already dead, in a technical limbo.

Legally, a doctor can still surgically take a dead body out of a pregnant woman. But in reality, the years of angry debate that led to the law’s passage, restrictive state laws and the violence targeting physicians have reduced the number of hospitals and doctors willing to do dilations and evacuations (D&Es) and dilations and extractions (intact D&Es), which involve removing a larger fetus, sometimes in pieces, from the womb.

At the same time, fewer medical schools are training doctors to do these procedures. After all, why spend time training for a surgery that’s likely to be made illegal?

At this point, 74 percent of obstetrics and gynecology residency programs do not train all residents in abortion procedures, according to reproductive health researchers at the National Abortion Federation. Those that do usually teach only the more routine dilation and curettage — D&C, the 15-minute uterine scraping used for abortions of fetuses under 13 weeks old.

Fewer than 7 percent of obstetricians are trained to do D&Es, the procedure used on fetuses from about 13 to 19 weeks. Almost all the doctors doing them are over 50 years old.

“Finding a doctor who will do a D&E is getting very tough,” says Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers.


My doctor turned around and faced me. She told me that because dilation and evacuation is rarely offered in my community, I could opt instead to chemically induce labor over several days and then deliver the little body at my local maternity ward. “It’s up to you,” she said.

I’d been through labor and delivery three times before, with great joy as well as pain, and the notion of going through that profound experience only to deliver a dead fetus (whose skin was already starting to slough off, whose skull might be collapsing) was horrifying.

I also did some research, spoke with friends who were obstetricians and gynecologists, and quickly learned this: Study after study shows D&Es are safer than labor and delivery. Women who had D&Es were far less likely to have bleeding requiring transfusion, infection requiring intravenous antibiotics, organ injuries requiring additional surgery or cervical laceration requiring repair and hospital readmission.

A review of 300 second- trimester abortions published in 2002 in the American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology found that 29 percent of women who went through labor and delivery had complications, compared with just 4 percent of those who had D&Es.

The American Medical Association said D&Es, compared to labor and delivery, “may minimize trauma to the woman’s uterus, cervix and other vital organs.”

There was this fact, too: The intact D&E surgery makes less use of “grasping instruments,” which could damage the body of the fetus. If the body were intact, doctors might be able to more easily figure out why my baby died in the womb.

I’m a healthy person. I run, swim and bike. I’m 37 years old and optimistic. Good things happen to me. I didn’t want to rule out having more kids, but I did want to know what went wrong before I tried again.

We told our doctor we had chosen a dilation and evacuation.

“I can’t do these myself,” said my doctor. “I trained at a Catholic hospital.”

My doctor recommended a specialist in a neighboring county, but when I called for an appointment, they said they couldn’t see me for almost a week.

I could feel my baby’s dead body inside of mine. This baby had thrilled me with kicks and flutters, those first soft tickles of life bringing a smile to my face and my hand to my rounding belly. Now this baby floated, limp and heavy, from one side to the other, as I rolled in my bed.

And within a day, I started to bleed. My body, with or without a doctor’s help, was starting to expel the fetus. Technically, I was threatening a spontaneous abortion, the least safe of the available options.

I did what any pregnant patient would do. I called my doctor. And she advised me to wait.

I lay in my bed, not sleeping day or night, trying not to lose this little baby’s body that my own womb was working to expel. Wait, I told myself. Just hold on. Let a doctor take this out.

I was scared. Was it going to fall out of my body when I rose, in the middle of the night, to check on my toddler? Would it come apart on its own and double me over, knock me to the floor, as I stood at the stove scrambling eggs for my boys?

On my fourth morning, with the bleeding and cramping increasing, I couldn’t wait any more. I called my doctor and was told that since I wasn’t hemorrhaging, I should not come in. Her partner, on call, pedantically explained that women can safely lose a lot of blood, even during a routine period.

I began calling labor and delivery units at the top five medical centers in my area. I told them I had been 19 weeks along. The baby is dead. I’m bleeding, I said. I’m scheduled for a D&E in a few days. If I come in right now, what could you do for me, I asked.

Don’t come in, they told me again and again. “Go to your emergency room if you are hemorrhaging to avoid bleeding to death. No one here can do a D&E today, and unless you’re really in active labor you’re safer to wait.”


More than 66,000 women each year in the U.S. undergo an abortion at some point between 13 and 20 weeks, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The CDC doesn’t specify the physical circumstances of the women or their fetuses. Other CDC data shows that 4,000 women miscarry in their second trimester. Again, the data doesn’t clarify whether those 4,000 women have to go through surgery.

Here’s what is clear: Most of those women face increasingly limited access to care. One survey showed that half of the women who got abortions after 15 weeks of gestation said they were delayed because of problems in affording, finding or getting to abortion services.

No surprise there; abortion is not readily available in 86 percent of the counties in the U.S.

Although there are some new, early diagnostic tests available, the most common prenatal screening for neural tube defects or Down syndrome is done around the 16th week of pregnancy. When problems are found — sometimes life-threatening problems — pregnant women face the same limited options that I did.


At last I found one university teaching hospital that, at least over the telephone, was willing to take me.

“We do have one doctor who can do a D&E,” they said. “Come in to our emergency room if you want.”

But when I arrived at the university’s emergency room, the source of the tension was clear. After examining me and confirming I was bleeding but not hemorrhaging, the attending obstetrician, obviously pregnant herself, defensively explained that only one of their dozens of obstetricians and gynecologists still does D&Es, and he was simply not available.

Not today. Not tomorrow. Not the next day.

No, I couldn’t have his name. She walked away from me and called my doctor.

“You can’t just dump these patients on us,” she shouted into the phone, her high-pitched voice floating through the heavy curtains surrounding my bed. “You should be dealing with this yourself.”

Shivering on the narrow, white exam table, I wondered what I had done wrong. Then I pulled back on my loose maternity pants and stumbled into the sunny parking lot, blinking back tears in the dazzling spring day, trying to understand the directions they sent me out with: Find a hotel within a few blocks from a hospital. Rest, monitor the bleeding. Don’t go home — the 45-minute drive might be too far.

The next few days were a blur of lumpy motel beds, telephone calls to doctors, cramps. The pre-examination for my D&E finally arrived. First, the hospital required me to sign a legal form consenting to terminate the pregnancy. Then they explained I could, at no cost, have the remains incinerated by the hospital pathology department as medical waste, or for a fee have them taken to a funeral home for burial or cremation.

They inserted sticks of seaweed into my cervix and told me to go home for the night. A few hours later — when the contractions were regular, strong and frequent — I knew we needed to get to the hospital. “The patient appeared to be in active labor,” say my charts, “and I explained this to the patient and offered her pain medication for vaginal delivery.”

According to the charts, I was “adamant” in demanding a D&E. I remember that I definitely wanted the surgical procedure that was the safest option. One hour later, just as an anesthesiologist was slipping me into unconsciousness, I had the D&E and a little body, my little boy, slipped out.

Around his neck, three times and very tight, was the umbilical cord, source of his life, cause of his death.


This past spring, as the wild flowers started blooming around the simple cross we built for this baby, the Justice Department began trying to enforce the Bush administration’s ban and federal courts in three different cities heard arguments regarding the new law.

Doctors explained that D&Es are the safest procedure in many cases, and that the law is particularly cruel to mothers like me whose babies were already dead.

In hopes of bolstering their case, prosecutors sent federal subpoenas to various medical centers, asking for records of D&Es. There’s an attorney somewhere, someday, who may poke through the files of my loss.

I didn’t watch the trial because I had another appointment to keep — another ultrasound. Lying on the crisp white paper, watching the monitor, I saw new life, the incredible spine, tiny fingers waving slowly across my uterus, a perfect thigh.

Best of all, there it was, a strong, four-chamber heart, beating steady and solid. A soft quiver, baby rolling, rippled across my belly.

“Everything looks wonderful,” said my doctor. “This baby is doing great.”


Martha Mendoza is a working journalist and a winner of the 2000 Pulitzer Prize for investigative reporting. She recently gave birth to her fourth child, a beautiful and healthy baby girl.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2009, 06:09:05 pm »
But that would be inaccurate. Pro-life people oppose giving women the right to choose. So, anti-choice. Pretty straightforward. But pro-choice people don't oppose life. They don't insist that all pregnant women should have abortions. They just want women to have the option, the choice. So, pro-choice.



In your own eyes--you are right.

In mine---anti-life--the baby's dead afterward.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2009, 06:13:51 pm »
To indicate that I, a pro-lifer, am anti-choice is just as insultling---and I didn't bring it up.

It's all a matter of perspective and if you insist on saying that a pro-lifer is anti-choice when pro-lifers give the choice to the child to live---and pro-lifers give the choice to the woman to use birth control---then I will insist on calling the pro-choice people anti-life as they ARE taking a life.

What's good for one is good for the other. You feel that you are on the high road. I feel that I am.

I can respect your perspective only as far as you respect mine. If you are pro-choice, I am pro-life.

no one is stoping you from calling people whatever you like.


and giving an unborn a choice? Exactly how does an unborn make a choice? You can´t, the only person that can make an informed choice is the woman. Which you seem to be against.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2009, 06:14:37 pm »
In regards to the story that was posted--I don't see anything wrong with the extraction of a baby who has died in the womb. Actually I think that's the best course of action.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2009, 06:15:37 pm »
no one is stoping you from calling people whatever you like.


and giving a fetus a choice? Exactly how does a fetus make a choice? You can´t, the only person that can make an informed choise is the woman. Which you seem to be against.

No--she can choose to use birth control if she doesn't want a baby.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2009, 06:17:24 pm »
and giving an unborn a choice? Exactly how does an unborn make a choice? You can´t, the only person that can make an informed choise is the woman. Which you seem to be against.

So you are against innocents having any rights? Or their rights are just less important than someone older and more experienced?
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2009, 06:18:01 pm »
No--she can choose to use birth control if she doesn't want a baby.
Nope, that´s not always a choice she can make.



Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2009, 06:20:07 pm »
Nope, that´s not always a choice she can make.




In the majority of cases--it is. If not--if it is something beyond her control: rape, life-threatening, etc. -- then abortion should be an option.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2009, 06:20:24 pm »
and giving an unborn a choice? Exactly how does an unborn make a choice? You can´t, the only person that can make an informed choise is the woman. Which you seem to be against.

So you are against innocents having any rights? Or their rights are just less important than someone older and more experienced?

You were talking about making choices, and that´s what I responded to. An unborn can´t make a choice.
A woman can (if you´ll let her, that is)


Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2009, 06:21:17 pm »
In the majority of cases--it is. If not--if it is something beyond her control: rape, life-threatening, etc. -- then abortion should be an option.

That´s not correct. In many countries birth control is not a choice.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2009, 06:21:51 pm »
pro-lifers give the choice to the child to live---

So you are against innocents having any rights? Or their rights are just less important than someone older and more experienced?

It's not about depriving fetuses of their rights. It's just the simple reality that a fetus is not able to choose anything whatsoever. If an abortion does not take place, it's not because the fetus "chooses" to live.

In your own eyes--you are right.

In mine---anti-life--the baby's dead afterward.

Yes. But the term anti-life suggests that abortion-rights supporters are against life in general. They're not. Whereas "anti-choice" is accurate; abortion opponents ARE against choice in general. They don't want individuals to be allowed to choose in this matter.

I like "abortion-rights supporters" and "abortion opponents," myself.


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2009, 06:22:44 pm »
My God, Crayons - what a terrible tale. Thank you for posting it though.

All that pain, worry, sorrow and medical physical risk during days and weeks because doctors and hospitals are  not trained and /or are afraid to provide the best,less risky and most sensible care for women, thanks to anti-choice, moralistic, misogynistic policies.  It's horrifying. I hope we'll be able to stem that tide over here.

I am amazed at that woman's tenacity and courage in wanting another baby after going through all that. If  it were me, I'd probably have run screaming if my husband tried to come closer than 2 metres from me. Or, more likely, I'd never ever have gone off the pill again.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2009, 06:23:08 pm »
You were talking about making choices, and that´s what I responded to. An unborn can´t make a choice.
A woman can (if you´ll let her, that is)



So you are against innocents having any rights.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2009, 06:26:06 pm »
So you are against innocents having any rights.



ok, this is getting redicilous...


But sure, I´ll answer. Am I against innocents (who ever that it is you include in that little group) having rights? No, not at all.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2009, 06:26:23 pm »
So you are against innocents having any rights.

Rights are not always synonymous with "choice." I think what Buffymon is saying is that a fetus is realistically incapable of making choices. If you want to talk about a fetus' rights, that would make more sense, IMO.


Offline Shasta542

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2009, 06:26:37 pm »
It's not about depriving fetuses of their rights. It's just the simple reality that a fetus is not able to choose anything whatsoever. If an abortion does not take place, it's not because the fetus "chooses" to live.

Yes. But the term anti-life suggests that abortion-rights supporters are against life in general. They're not. Whereas "anti-choice" is accurate; abortion opponents ARE against choice in general. They don't want individuals to be allowed to choose in this matter.

I like "abortion-rights supporters" and "abortion opponents," myself.



Then anti-life is accurate as in after an abortion--the baby has NO LIFE. You see it as you see it--I will see it as I see it. I am correct in my own perception. You perceive differently. That doesn't make you right and me wrong.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2009, 06:28:27 pm »
after an abortion--the baby has NO LIFE.
I think very few people would disagree on that O0

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2009, 06:32:25 pm »
That doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Of course not!  :)  You're arguing your POV, just as others are arguing theirs. It's a subjective issue.






Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2009, 06:40:41 pm »
One thing I have a difficulty understanding if I were to take the "pro life" activists at face value, is why the "life" seemingly is so infinitely more worth while it's in a woman's womb. Haven't I seen the conservatives on this board and elsewhere moaning and groaning many a time over those living on welfare and how horrid it is to have to be paying taxes towards their welfare payments etc etc. Many single moms who have to live wholly or partly on welfare might have decided to get an abortion if that was a safe and easily accessible option to them, with no stigma involved. Yet here are those precious now-born lives and their moms, in need of support after they've actually been born and are real living human beings - and the enthusiasm for the value of their lives seem to decline all at once. While the ire and contempt directed at the "welfare moms" increase correspondingly.  ???

Again, this proves to me that it's not about the life of the fetus (or resulting child) at all, but about repressing women and taking away from them both rights and responsibilities surrounding their own bodies, - and heaping guilt, shame and pain on them in the process. I am especially sorry to see women actually buying into this kind of ideology.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2009, 06:41:23 pm »
Of course not!  :)  You're arguing your POV, just as others are arguing theirs. It's a subjective issue.






It´s clear that this is a issue, that is personal to many, and I guess that´s why people easily get emotional.
There are a few subject I could probably debate forever, and this is one of them. But don´t worry. I won´t. :laugh:

Offline Mandy21

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2009, 06:44:10 pm »
Wow, this is getting quite heated.  

I believe that every woman has a right to decide what goes on with her own body,and that no politician or husband or fiance or boyfriend has a right to change that decision about whether or not to bring a life into this world.  They can certainly give their opinion if the woman chooses to tell them about the pregnancy in the first place, but they also certainly shouldn't presume that they're going to change her mind.  That woman in question, besides rape or incest, might also have been advised by a doctor to let go of that baby or might also not be financially capable of raising it, or might not have had the father anywhere in sight, who knows.  That woman might have a million reasons to make the choice she did.  It's up to every woman to decide.

Shasta, I do see your point.  I do see both sides of most every story, and I appreciate your point of view.  But I have to lean in a certain direction in this case.
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2009, 06:48:55 pm »
One thing I have a difficulty understanding if I were to take the "pro life" activists at face value, is why the "life" seemingly is so infinitely more worth while it's in a woman's womb. Haven't I seen the conservatives on this board and elsewhere moaning and groaning many a time over those living on welfare and how horrid it is to have to be paying taxes towards their welfare payments etc etc. Many single moms who have to live wholly or partly on welfare might have decided to get an abortion if that was a safe and easily accessible option to them, with no stigma involved. Yet here are those precious now-born lives and their moms, in need of support after they've actually been born and are real living human beings - and the enthusiasm for the value of their lives seem to decline all at once. While the ire and contempt directed at the "welfare moms" increase correspondingly.  ???

Again, this proves to me that it's not about the life of the fetus (or resulting child) at all, but about repressing women and taking away from them both rights and responsibilities surrounding their own bodies, - and heaping guilt, shame and pain on them in the process. I am especially sorry to see women actually buying into this kind of ideology.
This is something that has striked me several times as well. To quote George Carlin on the subject: once you´re out of the womb, they couldn´t care less about you. 
:-\

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2009, 07:32:07 pm »
Denying women free and easy access to contraception and/or abortion is and has always been repression of women, pure and simple and heinous.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "denying women contraception." What kind of female contraceptives would have been available back in those days? The herbal preparations?

And why should any of this be free? Men have to buy condoms--unless they happen upon some subsidized non-profit that is handing them out. So women should have to pay for their contraceptive methods too. The cost of abortions should be split between the parents, IMO 
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2009, 07:33:50 pm »
I do see both sides of most every story, and I appreciate your point of view.  But I have to lean in a certain direction in this case.

That's how I am. A friend of mine once said she couldn't understand how anyone could possibly be against legal abortion. But to me it was pretty clear: If you see abortion as murder, then you must oppose it.

The difference between the two sides isn't whether or not a woman should be allowed to choose, IMO. It's whether killing a fetus is murder. To me it's not. But I can see why, if you thought it was, you would think the fetus' life is more important than the woman's choice.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2009, 07:35:24 pm »
And why should any of this be free? Men have to buy condoms

Not to speak for Mikaela, but by "free" she might have meant "unfettered," as opposed to "no cost."


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2009, 07:37:06 pm »
This is something that has striked me several times as well. To quote George Carlin on the subject: once you´re out of the womb, they couldn´t care less about you. 
:-\


Another inconsistency that I've never been able to wrap my mind around, is how American conservatives by and large are very anti-choice, citing the sanctity of life, but yet most of them are staunch supporters of capital punishment. Again it seems to me that it's the fact that the "life" is in a woman's womb - a woman who apparently shouldn't be allowed her own informed decisions - that makes it so singularly worthy of support and protection.

At least we Scandinavians don't have this conundrum to juggle -  no-one here publicly advocates the introduction of capital punishment, as far as I know.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2009, 07:47:42 pm »
Haven't I seen the conservatives on this board and elsewhere moaning and groaning many a time over those living on welfare and how horrid it is to have to be paying taxes towards their welfare payments etc etc. Many single moms who have to live wholly or partly on welfare might have decided to get an abortion if that was a safe and easily accessible option to them, with no stigma involved. Yet here are those precious now-born lives and their moms, in need of support after they've actually been born and are real living human beings - and the enthusiasm for the value of their lives seem to decline all at once. While the ire and contempt directed at the "welfare moms" increase correspondingly.  ???

Yep. And I've been one of them. Let me make sure to be painfully accurate here: we don't diss welfare "moms," we diss welfare "queens." Women who make a lifestyle out of being on welfare. Its one thing to use public assistance as a support system when in need. That's what its there for. Hell, I ate more than my share of government cheese as a small child. But my mother got off her ass and went back to work when my brothers and I had all finally started school.

Again, this proves to me that it's not about the life of the fetus (or resulting child) at all, but about repressing women and taking away from them both rights and responsibilities surrounding their own bodies, - and heaping guilt, shame and pain on them in the process. I am especially sorry to see women actually buying into this kind of ideology.

I think it depends who you're asking. Some abortion opponents are more into the whole "woman's place/man's will" aspect. But there are most definitely people out there who think that it is an act of premeditated murder.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2009, 07:48:49 pm »
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "denying women contraception." What kind of female contraceptives would have been available back in those days? The herbal preparations?

And why should any of this be free? Men have to buy condoms--unless they happen upon some subsidized non-profit that is handing them out. So women should have to pay for their contraceptive methods too. The cost of abortions should be split between the parents, IMO 

As to the first, I wasn't as much discussing the OP, but rather circumstances today. And today, in many countries and societies, women are denied access to and knowledge of contraception. (Women back in the day did have various herbal remedies that to some extent served as contraceptives. As far as I've read up on the medieval witch hunts, for instance, one of the reasons for the RCC's ire and venom directed at village wise women was that they helped other women with such herbs - and also with herbs inducing abortions. Clearly such women were witches.  :( )

As to the "free", my apologies. I was translating the Norwegian "fri" in my mind - it means "free" as in living in freedom, being at complete liberty. I keep forgetting that "free" in English also means "gratis" - we have a separate word for that. Sometimes my non-English background seeps through.  :P

I did indeed mean "unfettered", as Crayons indicated.


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2009, 07:56:11 pm »
Let me make sure to be painfully accurate here: we don't diss welfare "moms," we diss welfare "queens." Women who make a lifestyle out of being on welfare.

I guess this is going OT, so maybe I should refrain, but  - how do you distinguish the two? At what point does it become a chosen lifestyle? I must admit that the dissing I've seen many times has seemed to be relatively all-inclusive, ie. everyone living on welfare seemed to be included in the disdain. I'm not at all saying this relates to any posts of yours, though.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2009, 07:56:44 pm »
I believe that every woman has a right to decide what goes on with her own body,and that no politician or husband or fiance or boyfriend has a right to change that decision about whether or not to bring a life into this world.  

I'm with you up until you get to the point of excluding the baby's father. No way. Not unless he is estranged from the wife, or impregnated her against her will. He has just as much right to decide what to do with that child as she does. And in many, many cases, couples (married or not) make that decision together.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2009, 07:59:25 pm »
I did indeed mean "unfettered", as Crayons indicated.

Thanks for clarifying. Then I agree with you.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2009, 08:15:23 pm »
I guess this is going OT, so maybe I should refrain, but  - how do you distinguish the two?

Its actually pretty easy to spot. And one of the few things I actually applaud Bill Clinton for is making it harder for people to stay on the welfare rolls. Its really about means-testing, and following up on people via social workers. Certain programs expire annually. Recipients are welcome apply for continuing coverage. As long as they still meet the requirements, they can get it. But people out-and-out lie about their circumstances in some cases. Back in the 70s it was kind of a joke, but some women would borrow neighbor's kids when the social worker was coming for a home visit.

But what tells the tale of the welfare queen/king better than anyone else is the men and women themselves. You can't imagine the attitudes I grew up around in the ghetto back in the day. "I ain't workin' for da man as long as da government will pay me to stay home;" "If I get a job, I'll loose my food stamps;" on, and on, and on.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2009, 08:48:23 pm »
I'm with you up until you get to the point of excluding the baby's father. No way. Not unless he is estranged from the wife, or impregnated her against her will. He has just as much right to decide what to do with that child as she does. And in many, many cases, couples (married or not) make that decision together.

Thank you for your thoughts, milomorris.  As I said, this has turned into a very heated discussion.

Perhaps I phrased myself poorly.  When I had my abortion, my boyfriend and I discussed it at length.  He had previously borne two children -- one of them given to adoption, one of them born to a married girlfriend he no longer saw, and then this one which would have been borne out of wedlock and just a few days after we had broken up, for what we thought was for good.  I went on a rather wild rampage, drinking myself silly and taking migraine medication that would definitely not contribute to the health of a fetus.  But at the time, I had no clue I might have been pregnant.  I was on the pill and taking it just as the doctor prescribed.  I only found out later that if you vomit sometimes, for whatever reason, the birth control pills become completely ineffective.  I learned this when the nurse from my ultrasound said the word "viable" to me.  I'd never heard the word before and had to ask her to explain.  She said the life inside of me was "10 week's viable".  Despite the fact that we were broken up, I did get hold of him immediately, saw him in person, told him the state I was in and how far along I was, and what my choice was, considering my/our circumstances, and asked him his opinion.  He agreed with me, and took me to the abortionist a few days later.  We were both torn up to pieces, but looking back, considering I was making next-to-no money, he wasn't my boyfriend at the time, he was living with his mom, and the very strong recommendation from my doctor that I not bring this child into the world, that's what I did.  My girl lost her life, AT MY CHOICE, on Dec 27, 1988.  She'd be 20 now, and there's not a day that goes by that I don't think of what she could have been to me and to herself and to this world.

It's NOT a simple choice.  Terminating a life -- whether it's a fetus or a dying parent or anyone else -- is the hardest choice anyone ever makes.

But I chose, and I'll also never stop being thankful that I live in a state and a country where a woman can choose.  I'm fairly sure I'm a bit too old to get pregnant again, but if I did, I'd be sure I lived in a country that let me make my/our choice.

Again, no offense for your opinion, Shasta, and I hope I made myself clearer, milomorris.  I just have mine as well, hope you don't hold it against me.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2009, 09:09:37 pm »
and I hope I made myself clearer, milomorris.

Yes. I'm happy to hear that you two handled the situation with the maturity and gravity it deserved.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2009, 11:33:53 pm »
I'm with you up until you get to the point of excluding the baby's father. No way. Not unless he is estranged from the wife, or impregnated her against her will. He has just as much right to decide what to do with that child as she does. And in many, many cases, couples (married or not) make that decision together.

I agree, up to a point. A father definitely does have a say in this. An equal say? Maybe not.


Thank you for your thoughts, milomorris.  As I said, this has turned into a very heated discussion.

Perhaps I phrased myself poorly.  When I had my abortion, my boyfriend and I discussed it at length.  He had previously borne two children -- one of them given to adoption, one of them born to a married girlfriend he no longer saw, and then this one which would have been borne out of wedlock and just a few days after we had broken up, for what we thought was for good.  I went on a rather wild rampage, drinking myself silly and taking migraine medication that would definitely not contribute to the health of a fetus.  But at the time, I had no clue I might have been pregnant.  I was on the pill and taking it just as the doctor prescribed.  I only found out later that if you vomit sometimes, for whatever reason, the birth control pills become completely ineffective.  I learned this when the nurse from my ultrasound said the word "viable" to me.  I'd never heard the word before and had to ask her to explain.  She said the life inside of me was "10 week's viable".  Despite the fact that we were broken up, I did get hold of him immediately, saw him in person, told him the state I was in and how far along I was, and what my choice was, considering my/our circumstances, and asked him his opinion.  He agreed with me, and took me to the abortionist a few days later.  We were both torn up to pieces, but looking back, considering I was making next-to-no money, he wasn't my boyfriend at the time, he was living with his mom, and the very strong recommendation from my doctor that I not bring this child into the world, that's what I did.  My girl lost her life, AT MY CHOICE, on Dec 27, 1988.  She'd be 20 now, and there's not a day that goes by that I don't think of what she could have been to me and to herself and to this world.

It's NOT a simple choice.  Terminating a life -- whether it's a fetus or a dying parent or anyone else -- is the hardest choice anyone ever makes.

But I chose, and I'll also never stop being thankful that I live in a state and a country where a woman can choose.  I'm fairly sure I'm a bit too old to get pregnant again, but if I did, I'd be sure I lived in a country that let me make my/our choice.

Again, no offense for your opinion, Shasta, and I hope I made myself clearer, milomorris.  I just have mine as well, hope you don't hold it against me.

Thank you for sharing this, Mandy. This really helps put things in a very personal perspective.



Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2009, 12:57:10 am »
Quote
Thank you for sharing this, Mandy. This really helps put things in a very personal perspective.

Ditto.  Thank you so much for telling us your story, Mandy  It really does help to put a human face on the women who make such a difficult decision that some people are so quick to judge.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2009, 01:29:10 am »
Thanks, folks.  It's no big deal to share my story.  As I said, I live through the tears every minute of every day, and I do have regrets, but I'm also happy that I made that choice.  It was the right choice at that time in my life, in my situation.  Whether or not she would have turned out perfect, or even alright, no one can say.  My heart aches for that little girl the doctor showed to me before he threw her into a trash bin, every day.  20 years' on, and I'm still thinking on the name I'd have given her.

BTW, that man -- our girl's father -- became my one and only husband, and we lasted almost 6 years as man and wife.  He proposed the day before the abortion.  Got down on his knees and everything.  The abortionist commented on how beautiful my engagement ring was, as I was gripping onto the table, right before the suction noise began...
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2009, 02:46:53 am »
I'm with you up until you get to the point of excluding the baby's father. No way. Not unless he is estranged from the wife, or impregnated her against her will. He has just as much right to decide what to do with that child as she does. And in many, many cases, couples (married or not) make that decision together.
Well, what if they can´t come to a decision they both agree on then? Let´s say the woman wants to have an abortion and the man doesn´t. Should the woman be forced to give birth? And how would this be enforced exactly?

It is a nice idea, but completely unrealistic.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2009, 06:25:35 am »
Well, what if they can´t come to a decision they both agree on then? Let´s say the woman wants to have an abortion and the man doesn´t. Should the woman be forced to give birth? And how would this be enforced exactly?

It is a nice idea, but completely unrealistic.

I would image there might be a legal solution to such a dispute if both parties were dug in so deep.

If we look at the flip side--where the man wants the abortion, but the woman doesn't: should the man be forced to support the child??
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2009, 06:35:40 am »
I would image there might be a legal solution to such a dispute if both parties were dug in so deep.

If we look at the flip side--where the man wants the abortion, but the woman doesn't: should the man be forced to support the child??
The idea of a society where courts could force women to give birth to children...I doubt that´s what anyone wants. And again; how should this be enforced?


And the answer to your other questions is yes. As soon as a baby is born, the welfare of the child is the most important thing. I don´t think a man should be forced to see the child (because this could harm the child) but financially he must be there

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2009, 06:47:53 am »

Thank you for sharing this, Mandy. This really helps put things in a very personal perspective.


I agree. Thank you.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2009, 07:01:15 am »
The idea of a society where courts could force women to give birth to children...I doubt that´s what anyone wants.

I agree the idea is hard to wrap one's mind around. Nevertheless, that is in fact what the anti-abortion supporters advocate isn't it - forcing women to give birth. What else is it, when women are denied legal and medically safe abortions (and indeed, even contraception in many countries?)

If the choice is between the knitting needles on the sly or having an unplanned baby that you don't see your way to caring for at all.... and the woman even will be severely prosecuted for having that illegal and dangerous abortion if she so decides..... that for all practical purposes is a society which does it darndest to force women to give birth, at the risk of their own lives.

Rumenia was just one such country, under the Ceauchesku (?) regime. It's not that long ago - I very well remember the end of all that. There's a recent and very bleak movie portraying womens' lot under that abortion-denying regime. "Four months, three weeks, two days"  it's called - and it won the Palme d'Or at Cannes in 2007. But I have never dared watch it, - I fear it will be too emotionally devastating.


Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2009, 07:16:36 am »
"Four months, three weeks, two days"  it's called - and it won the Palme d'Or at Cannes in 2007. But I have never dared watch it, - I fear it will be too emotionally devastating.


I had to review that movie for a newspaper. It´s really, really hard to watch.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2009, 07:18:26 am »
You are a brave woman! (Not that I doubted that at all...  :) )

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2009, 07:22:53 am »
Its actually pretty easy to spot. [  ] ...people out-and-out lie about their circumstances in some cases. Back in the 70s it was kind of a joke, but some women would borrow neighbor's kids when the social worker was coming for a home visit.

But what tells the tale of the welfare queen/king better than anyone else is the men and women themselves. You can't imagine the attitudes I grew up around in the ghetto back in the day. "I ain't workin' for da man as long as da government will pay me to stay home;" "If I get a job, I'll loose my food stamps;" on, and on, and on.

Thank you for clarifying. I guess I find it hard to wrap my mind around not wanting more from life than managing on welfare payments year after year. Because thought the money is certain to arrive, it can't be very much - so it's hardly a life of luxury I would suppose. 

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2009, 07:23:35 am »
The idea of a society where courts could force women to give birth to children...I doubt that´s what anyone wants. And again; how should this be enforced?


And the answer to your other questions is yes. As soon as a baby is born, the welfare of the child is the most important thing. I don´t think a man should be forced to see the child (because this could harm the child) but financially he must be there


I believe that if a man and a woman cannot agree on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, the court should bind them over to a family planning agency (or someone) who can arbitrate. If the arbitration does not work, then the law should allow for a range of final judgment options for the court. Just like in custody cases, the fitness of the man or woman to be a parent should be a part of the debate.

But to answer the question of whether courts should have the ultimate power over the baby's fate, I do not think so. But I do believe that if a man wants the child and the woman does not, he should be awarded monetary compensation from the woman. I also believe that if the woman wants child, but the man does not, she should not be awarded any financial support.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2009, 07:38:02 am »

. Because thought the money is certain to arrive, it can't be very much - so it's hardly a life of luxury I would suppose. 
No hardly. I think the number of people that enjoys that kind of life, is very small. But it´s often made out as they represent the majority.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2009, 07:39:22 am »

I believe that if a man and a woman cannot agree on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, the court should bind them over to a family planning agency (or someone) who can arbitrate. If the arbitration does not work, then the law should allow for a range of final judgment options for the court. Just like in custody cases, the fitness of the man or woman to be a parent should be a part of the debate.


Don't you think this would be impossible in practice, simply from a time window perspective? Each step of the official process would necessarily take its time, and the one who did not win through with his / her opinion would have to have rights to appeal the initial decision. In the meantime the clock would be ticking very quickly towards the end of the first trimester....

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2009, 07:41:50 am »

I believe that if a man and a woman cannot agree on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, the court should bind them over to a family planning agency (or someone) who can arbitrate. If the arbitration does not work, then the law should allow for a range of final judgment options for the court. Just like in custody cases, the fitness of the man or woman to be a parent should be a part of the debate.

But to answer the question of whether courts should have the ultimate power over the baby's fate, I do not think so. But I do believe that if a man wants the child and the woman does not, he should be awarded monetary compensation from the woman. I also believe that if the woman wants child, but the man does not, she should not be awarded any financial support.
Your solution doesn´t strike me as realistic, MM. It would never work.

And regarding financial support, I put the good of the child first. Once the child is born, it has the right to be provided for.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2009, 07:57:31 am »
Don't you think this would be impossible in practice, simply from a time window perspective? Each step of the official process would necessarily take its time, and the one who did not win through with his / her opinion would have to have rights to appeal the initial decision. In the meantime the clock would be ticking very quickly towards the end of the first trimester....

Court doesn't always take a long time. Look how swiftly children are whisked into foster care by courts.

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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2009, 07:59:07 am »
Your solution doesn´t strike me as realistic, MM. It would never work.

And regarding financial support, I put the good of the child first. Once the child is born, it has the right to be provided for.

True. But that support must come from the parent who chooses not to abort the child. And there's always state assistance.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2009, 12:26:38 pm »
True. But that support must come from the parent who chooses not to abort the child. And there's always state assistance.

But that already exists and you see how things are for the children.

I'm torn about someone not wanting a child but being forced for 18 years to pay for the upkeep of a child he didn't want - and it will always be a he - let's put aside the issue of women being forced to have children they don't want.  There are already adoption agencies for women who want to give up their children and not support them.

Men don't have this option.

But it seems to me that a very important decision for men - whether they want a child or not and to support them for 18 years - is left up to them when they have the least brains to consider it.  They're horny or in love and want to shag now - they don't want to wait until marriage, they don't want to wait until they're secure in their careers and now they've got a partner who - understandably - may or may not want children,  may or may not believe in choice, may or may not change her mind no matter what she originally thought and said - which she's perfectly entitled to do.

This kind of partner does not bode well for a man who is too overrun with hormones to think clearly.

You'd think he'd want the women to be on the pill AND to use a condom slathered in non-oxyl 9 everytime AND have the woman use anti-spermicide suppositories - just to make sure.

But too often the man wants next to nothing done.  Or he leaves all the birth control to his partner.

So, later, if an accident happens and the man decides he wants nothing to do with a child, if he didn't take all the precautions possible that he could have to prevent a child it's hard to completely absolve him of any responsibility for the child - financial or otherwise - if the woman decides to keep a child.

Quote
But I do believe that if a man wants the child and the woman does not, he should be awarded monetary compensation from the woman.

It makes no sense for a woman who gets an abortion to pay money to the partner who didn't want one. The money the partner pays when a woman keeps a child is not for the woman, its to help raise the child.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2009, 03:35:37 pm »
It makes no sense for a woman who gets an abortion to pay money to the partner who didn't want one.

Right. Maybe I wasn't clear. If the woman aborts the baby that the man wanted, she should compensate him. This is similar to suing someone in civil court for a wrongful death.

The money the partner pays when a woman keeps a child is not for the woman, its to help raise the child.

I get that part, but why should he have to pay to help raise a child that he didn't want. The woman who has the baby (against the man's wishes), and also gets child support, is literally having her cake and eating it too.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2009, 03:56:57 pm »
Right. Maybe I wasn't clear. If the woman aborts the baby that the man wanted, she should compensate him. This is similar to suing someone in civil court for a wrongful death.

this is a very weird comparison. The woman isn´t commiting a crime when doing an abortion. Therefor no compensation should be awarded the male.



Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2009, 03:57:34 pm »
Right. Maybe I wasn't clear. If the woman aborts the baby that the man wanted, she should compensate him. This is similar to suing someone in civil court for a wrongful death.

It's not comparable.  The woman has a perfect right to abortion if that's what she wanted.

What you're suggesting is that the partner is owed something.

If that's the case, and the man is owed money by the woman for not having his child, then if he doesn't want anything to do with the child, then not only does he owe her money for child support he also has to pay her as well because he didn't act as she might have wanted.

Quote
I get that part, but why should he have to pay to help raise a child that he didn't want. The woman who has the baby (against the man's wishes), and also gets child support, is literally having her cake and eating it too.

Because as my post said - did you read it?  - few men are willing to take all precautions necessary.  They usually have some bonehead excuse "She told me she was on the pill."  or "She's the one who gets pregnant so she should be the one who takes responsibility for birth control." for not going over the top in preventing conception.  So yes, unless they did all but have a vasectomy, when accidents happen, the male partner needs to be carefully scrutinized to see if he did all he could to prevent conception.  If he didn't, then yes, he bears responsibility as well as the woman.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2009, 03:57:59 pm »
this is a very weird comparison. The woman isn´t commiting a crime when doing an abortion. Therefor no compensation should be awarded the male.

Civil court is not for criminal offenses.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2009, 03:59:18 pm »
I get that part, but why should he have to pay to help raise a child that he didn't want. The woman who has the baby (against the man's wishes), and also gets child support, is literally having her cake and eating it too.

I think men just have to get used to the idea that if they have sex with a woman, she may get pregnant. That's part of the deal, and the possibility of winding up with a child to support is a responsibility they take when they have the sex in the first place.




Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2009, 05:39:31 pm »
I think men just have to get used to the idea that if they have sex with a woman, she may get pregnant. That's part of the deal, and the possibility of winding up with a child to support is a responsibility they take when they have the sex in the first place.

And likewise a woman has to get used to the idea that if she has sex with a man, she may get pregnant. But I do not believe that child support should necessarily be compulsory. There are so many permutations. What if the man want to get married, but she does not? Is he still liable for child support? And I still say that if the woman retains the right to carry to term, but the man wants an abortion, the woman should shoulder the responsibility for raising the child. She is, after all, making a unilateral decision to become a parent...in spite of the father's wishes.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2009, 05:43:06 pm »
Few men are willing to take all precautions necessary.

Precautions are a two way street. And women do lie sometimes about their use of birth control. Both parties bear equal weight when it comes to conception. Just because the woman makes the ultimate choice as to whether or not to carry to term, does not mean that the man is not allowed to disagree with that, nor should be held responsible for the outcome of a decision that she made.
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Offline Kelda

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2009, 06:20:58 pm »
I'm myself not totally comfortable with the idea of abortion - although I'm not sure how I;d react if I was in the situation.

I personally, don;t think I coud do it - but that's me.

I would say I am pro-choice becasue there is so many sceanarios where the choice is deserved, whether that be rape, disability of the child, or whatever.

What I do not agree with is women using abortion as a form of contraception. Too lazy to take precautions and think thats the easy way out.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2009, 06:21:42 pm »
And likewise a woman has to get used to the idea that if she has sex with a man, she may get pregnant. But I do not believe that child support should necessarily be compulsory. There are so many permutations. What if the man want to get married, but she does not? Is he still liable for child support? And I still say that if the woman retains the right to carry to term, but the man wants an abortion, the woman should shoulder the responsibility for raising the child. She is, after all, making a unilateral decision to become a parent...in spite of the father's wishes.

Because it's still his child.  She didn't get pregnant by herself.  The child needs care - why should it suffer just because one parent doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions?

Child support isn't about funding a mother's lifestyle, it's about supporting a child.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2009, 06:24:58 pm »
Precautions are a two way street. And women do lie sometimes about their use of birth control. Both parties bear equal weight when it comes to conception. Just because the woman makes the ultimate choice as to whether or not to carry to term, does not mean that the man is not allowed to disagree with that, nor should be held responsible for the outcome of a decision that she made.

Yes, some women do lie, hence the need for men to not take any claim at face value and to take their own precautions.  If they don't, then they have an equal responsibility in whatever happens - whether abortion or bringing a child into this world.

Big responsibility isn't it?  Guess men need to think more before whipping it out of their pants and not worrying about birth control.

Offline Kelda

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2009, 06:25:30 pm »
Right. Maybe I wasn't clear. If the woman aborts the baby that the man wanted, she should compensate him. This is similar to suing someone in civil court for a wrongful death.

I get that part, but why should he have to pay to help raise a child that he didn't want. The woman who has the baby (against the man's wishes), and also gets child support, is literally having her cake and eating it too.

But surely if the woman is made to have the baby the man then should:
 
a) compensate the woman for making her go through months of unwanted pregnancy.
b) compensate the woman for having to deal with the child post birth.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2009, 12:08:07 am »
Because it's still his child.  She didn't get pregnant by herself.  The child needs care - why should it suffer just because one parent doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions?

I'm not talking about absolving men of their responsibilities to their children. I'm talking about a man and a woman coming to a mutually beneficial arrangement regarding family planning. If she wants the child and he wants an abortion, he can't force her to have one. But to then deliver the child, and turn around and demand that the man pay child support is selfish and greedy. More to the point of this conversation, it takes away the man's choices, while leaving the woman's choices 100% intact.

The way I see it, leving the man's finances out of a situation like that is a win-win. The woman gets her baby, and the man keeps his money. He should be able to go to family court, state his case, and let the court decide whether or not child support should be waived.

On the flip side of the coin, when the woman wants to abort, but the man wants the child, I think either civil or family court should make itself available to address the issue of compensation due the father for the loss of his child. While a child cannot be replaced by the court, they can certainly compensate the man for his investment (time, money, etc.) in the relationship, as well as for the emotional trauma of losing the child that he helped to create.

The man gets compensation, and the woman get to make her choice. Again, its a win-win.

Child support isn't about funding a mother's lifestyle, it's about supporting a child.

Riiiiiight. And people use the company cell phone only for business calls. In spirit I agree. In practice, things are quite different.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2009, 12:14:11 am »
But surely if the woman is made to have the baby the man then should:
 
a) compensate the woman for making her go through months of unwanted pregnancy.
b) compensate the woman for having to deal with the child post birth.

Agreed. But nobody can make a woman carry a child to term. She has a choice, and is the only person who can make it. She holds the cards.

I could imagine a situation where the man pays the woman for having the baby. Kinda like the way surrogate moms work. The only problem with that is that in most cases the man has already had sex with the woman in good faith, with no expectation of payment.
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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2009, 02:01:43 am »
But surely if the woman is made to have the baby the man then should:
 
a) compensate the woman for making her go through months of unwanted pregnancy.
b) compensate the woman for having to deal with the child post birth.

Yes indeed.



The more of I've thought about this the more unrealistic it seems. There is also the risk that If a woman that doesn't want a child, knowing that an abortion could lead to paying the man large sums of money (money she possible doesn't have), that she feels even less inclined to tell the man about the pregnancy at all/or the have the pregnancy done illegally which could potentially be a threat to her health.

No. The woman is the one that carries the child. It´s her body. She is the one who puts her health in potential jeopardy. It's the woman decision, and her decision only.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2009, 02:04:12 am »

Riiiiiight. And people use the company cell phone only for business calls. In spirit I agree. In practice, things are quite different.

I doubt you know much about what it´s like to raise a child on your own, Milo. Or what it costs. I know a few single mothers and they have a very hard time to get by, even with financial aid from the father. It´s quite insulting to imply that they are living in some kind of luxury. Raising a child is expensive.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2009, 08:09:56 am »
I doubt you know much about what it´s like to raise a child on your own, Milo.

Not much. I have no children, and don't want any. I know plenty about being a child raised by a single parent. ANd I've seen my aunt and my sister raise their kids. So I'm not blind to the situation.

quote author=Buffymon link=topic=36493.msg520023#msg520023 date=1244441052]
It´s quite insulting to imply that they are living in some kind of luxury. Raising a child is expensive.
[/quote]

I NEVER implied that and I think it would be best if you would read what I write rather than plugging in your own assumptions about what I'm thinking.

And yes, raising a child is expensive. That's why women who want to keep their illegitimate children should think long and hard about that choice, especially if they know in advance that the father is not willing to participate.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2009, 10:01:24 am »
Not much. I have no children, and don't want any. I know plenty about being a child raised by a single parent. ANd I've seen my aunt and my sister raise their kids. So I'm not blind to the situation.

quote author=Buffymon link=topic=36493.msg520023#msg520023 date=1244441052]
It´s quite insulting to imply that they are living in some kind of luxury. Raising a child is expensive.


I NEVER implied that and I think it would be best if you would read what I write rather than plugging in your own assumptions about what I'm thinking.

And yes, raising a child is expensive. That's why women who want to keep their illegitimate children should think long and hard about that choice, especially if they know in advance that the father is not willing to participate.

I did read the post, Milo. Perhaps I misunderstood it. This was what I read and responded to




"Riiiiiight. And people use the company cell phone only for business calls. In spirit I agree. In practice, things are quite different."

which was your reply to Delalluvia saying: "Child support isn't about funding a mother's lifestyle, it's about supporting a child."



Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2009, 02:24:17 pm »
I did read the post, Milo. Perhaps I misunderstood it. This was what I read and responded to

"Riiiiiight. And people use the company cell phone only for business calls. In spirit I agree. In practice, things are quite different."

which was your reply to Delalluvia saying: "Child support isn't about funding a mother's lifestyle, it's about supporting a child."

The reality is that the money goes to both mother AND child. Its not like you can separate the two fiscally. Even if there were some magical way to ensure that the money was spent directly only on things that the child needs, there is still the issue of the man being required to fund a project in which he wanted no participation.
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Offline Mandy21

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2009, 03:03:33 pm »
Agreed. But nobody can make a woman carry a child to term. She has a choice, and is the only person who can make it. She holds the cards.

Milo, what if the couple is in an abusive relationship; i.e., violence, drugs, gangs, etc.  I read all the time here in the St. Louis area crime section of the paper about women who are thrown down stairs, beaten with pipes, strangled until they give in to the abortion, etc., by the baby's father.  At that point, it becomes the MAN holding the cards, unfortunately.  I realize it's not the norm, but it does indeed happen -- way too often.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2009, 03:09:58 pm »
there is still the issue of the man being required to fund a project in which he wanted no participation.

Nope. Again, he participated in "launching" the project, so to speak, and now is financially responsible for carrying it through.

And likewise a woman has to get used to the idea that if she has sex with a man, she may get pregnant.

Of course.

Quote
What if the man want to get married, but she does not? Is he still liable for child support?

Sure. I don't see what marital plans have to do with it.

Quote
And I still say that if the woman retains the right to carry to term, but the man wants an abortion, the woman should shoulder the responsibility for raising the child. She is, after all, making a unilateral decision to become a parent...in spite of the father's wishes.

Not unilaterally. The father made a decision earlier on that he was open to the possibility of becoming a parent.

FWIW, despite my seemingly inflexible views on this, I actually do have considerable sympathy for men in this situation, one of whom happens to be my brother. He became a father 17 years ago. The mother is someone he was dating very casually, was getting close to 40, heard the biological clock ticking, and wanted a child. My bro and the woman haven't had a romantic relationship since, but to everybody's credit, they get along pretty well. My brother has been a very responsible father, both financially and emotionally. Custody is not equally shared, so the mom shouldered far more of the day-to-day child-raising burden, but my niece has her own bedroom at my brother's house and they spend a lot of time together. At one point, he even moved from one state to another so he would be in the same city she is. Others in my family, including my late parents and even my widowed stepmother, have considered her as much a grandchild as they do my sons. My niece appears extremely well-adjusted and mentally healthy. She is friendly, popular, well-behaved, active in her church youth group, successful in school. And although fatherhood was not in my brother's plans initially, and he might not have been thrilled with the idea at first, I am certain he has never regretted it.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2009, 03:32:12 pm »
Milo, what if the couple is in an abusive relationship; i.e., violence, drugs, gangs, etc.  I read all the time here in the St. Louis area crime section of the paper about women who are thrown down stairs, beaten with pipes, strangled until they give in to the abortion, etc., by the baby's father.  At that point, it becomes the MAN holding the cards, unfortunately.  I realize it's not the norm, but it does indeed happen -- way too often.

Oh, absolutely!! That guy should go to jail. And I wouldn't call the ACLU if he "lost his balance" on the way to the police car.
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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2009, 03:33:38 pm »
The reality is that the money goes to both mother AND child. Its not like you can separate the two fiscally. Even if there were some magical way to ensure that the money was spent directly only on things that the child needs, there is still the issue of the man being required to fund a project in which he wanted no participation.
It´s correct that the money does go to both, since the mother is the caretaker. But I think it´s rarely the case that she gets so much that she spend it on her own. The baby has to be fed, get new dypers etc. Most mothers I know, hardly can afford to spend the money on herself so therfore I think the money does go to the child.

Regarding the father. If the man doesn´t want to pay, then the society has to because the child has the right to be provided for. I guess we´ll just have to agree to disagree where that money should come from.

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2009, 03:35:36 pm »
Nope. Again, he participated in "launching" the project,


* :laugh:

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2009, 03:43:02 pm »
they can certainly compensate the man for his investment (time, money, etc.) in the relationship,
You mean that the man should be paid for having had a relationship with a woman who doesn´t want to carrry his children. ´How do we know the woman didn´t tell him this from the beginning. Is having kids the ultimate goal for every relationship? Hardly. A man has no right to claim any money for willingly having entered a relationship. For god´s sake.

I bet he did get something out of the relationship during it, or he wouldn´t have been in it at all. He shouldn´t get paid. Unless he was a gigolo of course. ;D

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2009, 03:52:14 pm »
I'm reading through this recent part of the discussion and strangely enough it makes me happy!!

It makes me happy because the whole discussion about who should pay what to whom etc. only makes any kind of sense on the basis that;

- Women have a real choice and actual possibility of terminating their pregnancy if they should so decide, and

- Many men actually want to see their child (however unplanned or however inconvenient the timing) born into the world, want to be a present and caring father, independently of their current relationship with the mother of the baby.


Remember the old days when women were frequently sent packing by their illegitimate child's father as soon as they became pregnant, the man caring not a whit what happened to his own flesh and blood?

Remember that law that Afghanistan very nearly passed some months ago, making it illegal for women to deny their husbands sex - and allowing marriage for girls down to 9 years of age? And of course, with no choice at all for the poor girl/woman but to go through with any resulting pregnancies from such a horrific "marriage"/sex slave situation.

Remember all the women today, all the world over, who have little or no access to contraception and have no choice at all when they become pregnant, no matter what the circumstances?

Boy, we are the lucky ones - and we should guard and protect our rights and fight to maintain them accordingly. We didn't reach this stage in women's rights by mere chance and coincidence. And it could so easily be taken away.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2009, 04:33:00 pm »
I'm reading through this recent part of the discussion and strangely enough it makes me happy!!

It makes me happy because the whole discussion about who should pay what to whom etc. only makes any kind of sense on the basis that;

- Women have a real choice and actual possibility of terminating their pregnancy if they should so decide, and

- Many men actually want to see their child (however unplanned or however inconvenient the timing) born into the world, want to be a present and caring father, independently of their current relationship with the mother of the baby.


Remember the old days when women were frequently sent packing by their illegitimate child's father as soon as they became pregnant, the man caring not a whit what happened to his own flesh and blood?

Remember that law that Afghanistan very nearly passed some months ago, making it illegal for women to deny their husbands sex - and allowing marriage for girls down to 9 years of age? And of course, with no choice at all for the poor girl/woman but to go through with any resulting pregnancies from such a horrific "marriage"/sex slave situation.

Remember all the women today, all the world over, who have little or no access to contraception and have no choice at all when they become pregnant, no matter what the circumstances?

Boy, we are the lucky ones - and we should guard and protect our rights and fight to maintain them accordingly. We didn't reach this stage in women's rights by mere chance and coincidence. And it could so easily be taken away.

Yes, we are very fortunate to decide what we would like to do with our body. But still there are a lot of pressure from other people around us to tell us what is the best thing for us ( like the REALLY now!!!)

I think the discussion would be about how it comes that people don't use protection like the best defence ever; condoms

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2009, 04:36:35 pm »
You mean that the man should be paid for having had a relationship with a woman who doesn´t want to carrry his children. ´How do we know the woman didn´t tell him this from the beginning. Is having kids the ultimate goal for every relationship? Hardly. A man has no right to claim any money for willingly having entered a relationship. For god´s sake.

I bet he did get something out of the relationship during it, or he wouldn´t have been in it at all. He shouldn´t get paid. Unless he was a gigolo of course. ;D

Totally Agree!! ;D

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2009, 04:56:52 pm »

I think one thing that many men (no matter how compassionate) don't understand when it comes to debates like this... is how truly scary pregnancy is for women on many, many levels.

One time I was having a conversation (kind of a silly conversation) with my best gay-male friend (he considers himself a feminist and is pro-choice, etc.) about all the things I consider to be a benefit to being  lesbian when it comes to sex and relationships (and he was doing the same discussing the pros- of being a gay man).  And, I said, that I feel extraordinarily lucky that sex for me never involves having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.  And, he was shocked by this.  Truly.  He couldn't understand why I would think of this as a benefit.

To me, it's an enormous burden taken off of my shoulders when it comes to relationships.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be to have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy with every sexual encounter on top of the standard worries about diseases (since no birth control or condoms are 100% effective).

I think his lack of understanding simply comes down to not knowing how scary the prospect of pregnancy is.  Even for women who want to be pregnant it can be terrifying.  My Mom had a panic attack once when she was pregnant with me when she was taking a tour of the maternity wing of the hospital (and I was a planned pregnancy).

Of course, pregnancy is a wonderful thing if it's planned and you have control over what's going on, and if you can assume that you'll have good medical care and support throughout the pregnancy and during/after birth.  But, on both a physical and psychological level an unwanted pregnancy can be so devastating.




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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2009, 05:07:55 pm »
Nope. Again, he participated in "launching" the project, so to speak, and now is financially responsible for carrying it through.

Not when abortion is available as an option.

Sure. I don't see what marital plans have to do with it.

In the "old days," the man would have wanted to do the "right" thing and marry the woman upon discovering the pregnancy. I hear this still happens. I also hear that, increasingly, young women are turning that option down (sometimes with good reasons). So you're telling me you're having our baby, but you won't let me marry you. Then you stick your hand out and ask me to finance that lifestyle?? There's no justice in that, and the man has zero choices.

And I think we can exclude one-night-stands, abusive men, and rapists from this whole discussion because nobody thinks those men deserve much consideration...and neither will a judge.

Not unilaterally. The father made a decision earlier on that he was open to the possibility of becoming a parent.

No. They made a decision to have sex. One doesn't become a parent until the child is delivered. And since this thread is all about abortion, we are talking about a method whereby men & women can avoid parent hood until they are ready. The woman unilaterally makes the decision whether to abort or deliver.

One of the reasons this whole issue is of particular interest to me is that I am constantly hearing tales of woe from men who get screwed over by girlfriends who leverage the legal system against them. The most pointed example of this is the story of an old friend of mine who I've known since we were 11, "Jim." Jim is Jewish. While was attending MIT, he met "Maria." Maria was from Puerto Rico (muy católico) and fell in love. They dated steadily, (and exclusively AFAIK) for 3-4 years, and after Jim finished grad school, he proposed and she accepted. Neither family was thrilled with this idea, but nobody stopped them. About a year into the engagement, Maria got pregnant. Her family took this opportunity to hit the roof, call off the engagement, and summon her back to Puerto Rico. Of course in their minds, this is all Jim's "fault." He "dishonored" her...treated her like a "common whore." Jim had nowhere to turn. His family, which contains several lawyers, wouldn't help him--"should never have gotten mixed up with those people to begin with," etc. So eventually, Maria gives birth, and then Jim has to start making child support payments for a kid he's never even seen. I desperately wanted to think of a way to help him out of this situation, but at 26, I didn't know too much about these things. All I could do was offer him a shoulder to cry on.

There was no justice in Jim's case. And I hate the idea that things like this happen to men.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2009, 05:15:58 pm »
You mean that the man should be paid for having had a relationship with a woman who doesn´t want to carrry his children. ´How do we know the woman didn´t tell him this from the beginning. Is having kids the ultimate goal for every relationship? Hardly. A man has no right to claim any money for willingly having entered a relationship. For god´s sake.

I bet he did get something out of the relationship during it, or he wouldn´t have been in it at all. He shouldn´t get paid. Unless he was a gigolo of course. ;D

Well actually I was just throwing some ideas out there of somethings that might be fairly easy to but a price tag on. The biggest part any compensation in a situation like that is for the lost child.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2009, 05:19:47 pm »
Not when abortion is available as an option.

For some people, it's not an option morally.

Quote
In the "old days," the man would have wanted to do the "right" thing and marry the woman upon discovering the pregnancy. I hear this still happens. I also hear that, increasingly, young women are turning that option down (sometimes with good reasons). So you're telling me you're having our baby, but you won't let me marry you. Then you stick your hand out and ask me to finance that lifestyle?? There's no justice in that, and the man has zero choices.

OK, but marriage and child support still seem like separate issues. If the couple were married, the man would still have to help support the kid. Having the woman as his wife isn't some kind of payback or benefit for that.

Quote
No. They made a decision to have sex. One doesn't become a parent until the child is delivered. And since this thread is all about abortion, we are talking about a method whereby men & women can avoid parent hood until they are ready. The woman unilaterally makes the decision whether to abort or deliver.

My original point was that men who want to have sex should keep in mind the very real possibility that they are going to end up making a baby. As Amanda's post suggested, this is something that traditionally women have had to take much more seriously.

Quote
So eventually, Maria gives birth, and then Jim has to start making child support payments for a kid he's never even seen.

A man should be legally entitled to joint custody of any child he is legally required to help support.

Milo, I understand what you're saying, and I do think men should have a say in whether their fetus gets aborted or delivered as a baby. I just don't think their say should be equal to that of the mother's, because they do not take on an equal burden. I'm not sure what the best answer is.




Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2009, 05:23:21 pm »
I'm reading through this recent part of the discussion and strangely enough it makes me happy!!

It makes me happy because the whole discussion about who should pay what to whom etc. only makes any kind of sense on the basis that;

- Women have a real choice and actual possibility of terminating their pregnancy if they should so decide, and

- Many men actually want to see their child (however unplanned or however inconvenient the timing) born into the world, want to be a present and caring father, independently of their current relationship with the mother of the baby.

That's what I've been saying a round about way. Women have these rights. But in the process of their rights evolving, men have been left behind on this issue. Society has been so wrapped up (and rightly so) in protecting the rights of women and children, that little attention has been paid to how all of this effects men. (He said in a blog called "Women Today"  ;D)
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2009, 05:31:32 pm »
That's what I've been saying a round about way. Women have these rights. But in the process of their rights evolving, men have been left behind on this issue. Society has been so wrapped up (and rightly so) in protecting the rights of women and children, that little attention has been paid to how all of this effects men. (He said in a blog called "Women Today"  ;D)

why should men have rights to something going on inside a womens body? And MEN do have rights to say NO before they get involved in an sexual relationship. NO one force them to have sex!!! ;D

Offline Kelda

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2009, 05:33:22 pm »
why should men have rights to something going on inside a womens body? And MEN do have rights to say NO before they get involved in an sexual relationship. NO one force them to have sex!!! ;D

Or at least to take precautions - ie use condoms and ask the female to be on the pill - if he didn't want a baby.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2009, 05:37:27 pm »
For some people, it's not an option morally.

True.

OK, but marriage and child support still seem like separate issues. If the couple were married, the man would still have to help support the kid. Having the woman as his wife isn't some kind of payback or benefit for that.

Right. And I wasn't suggesting that marriage was a "payback."

My original point was that men who want to have sex should keep in mind the very real possibility that they are going to end up making a baby. As Amanda's post suggested, this is something that traditionally women have had to take much more seriously.

I don't know that I can say that men take it any more seriously than women, or that women take it any more seriously than men. I know men and women alike who have very cavalier attitudes about it, and those that give the issue the gravity it deserves.

I know that the way I was raised, getting a girl pregnant seemed on par with shooting someone through the head.

A man should be legally entitled to joint custody of any child he is legally required to help support.

Thank you.

Milo, I understand what you're saying, and I do think men should have a say in whether their fetus gets aborted or delivered as a baby. I just don't think their say should be equal to that of the mother's, because they do not take on an equal burden. I'm not sure what the best answer is.

It is a bit of a conundrum. Both parents should have some say in the fate of the unborn child. That is why I floated the family/civil court balloon. Some situations need mediation (arbitration), other situations need regulation.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2009, 05:39:27 pm »
why should men have rights to something going on inside a womens body?

1. They're invited in.

2. They "own" half of that child's DNA. The growing fetus if just as much the father's as it is the mother's.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2009, 05:45:11 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2009, 05:48:10 pm »
I think one thing that many men (no matter how compassionate) don't understand when it comes to debates like this... is how truly scary pregnancy is for women on many, many levels.

One time I was having a conversation (kind of a silly conversation) with my best gay-male friend (he considers himself a feminist and is pro-choice, etc.) about all the things I consider to be a benefit to being  lesbian when it comes to sex and relationships (and he was doing the same discussing the pros- of being a gay man).  And, I said, that I feel extraordinarily lucky that sex for me never involves having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.  And, he was shocked by this.  Truly.  He couldn't understand why I would think of this as a benefit.

To me, it's an enormous burden taken off of my shoulders when it comes to relationships.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be to have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy with every sexual encounter on top of the standard worries about diseases (since no birth control or condoms are 100% effective).

I think his lack of understanding simply comes down to not knowing how scary the prospect of pregnancy is.  Even for women who want to be pregnant it can be terrifying.  My Mom had a panic attack once when she was pregnant with me when she was taking a tour of the maternity wing of the hospital (and I was a planned pregnancy).

Of course, pregnancy is a wonderful thing if it's planned and you have control over what's going on, and if you can assume that you'll have good medical care and support throughout the pregnancy and during/after birth.  But, on both a physical and psychological level an unwanted pregnancy can be so devastating.






For me the things you are talking about is very important. That pregnancy ain't a piece of cake like dinner every night. It involves a lot of things.  And a good health care system can provide and help you with these things. Because it is very important that the mother is really taking care of both before and after the pregnancy, not just from experts but from other people in the same situation. And I do now from a lot of female and male friends that unexpected pregnancy's even if they are very hard  in the beginning they always and up as something delightful and happy.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2009, 05:49:57 pm »
I think one thing that many men (no matter how compassionate) don't understand when it comes to debates like this... is how truly scary pregnancy is for women on many, many levels.

One time I was having a conversation (kind of a silly conversation) with my best gay-male friend (he considers himself a feminist and is pro-choice, etc.) about all the things I consider to be a benefit to being  lesbian when it comes to sex and relationships (and he was doing the same discussing the pros- of being a gay man).  And, I said, that I feel extraordinarily lucky that sex for me never involves having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.  And, he was shocked by this.  Truly.  He couldn't understand why I would think of this as a benefit.

To me, it's an enormous burden taken off of my shoulders when it comes to relationships.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be to have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy with every sexual encounter on top of the standard worries about diseases (since no birth control or condoms are 100% effective).

I think his lack of understanding simply comes down to not knowing how scary the prospect of pregnancy is.  Even for women who want to be pregnant it can be terrifying.  My Mom had a panic attack once when she was pregnant with me when she was taking a tour of the maternity wing of the hospital (and I was a planned pregnancy).

Of course, pregnancy is a wonderful thing if it's planned and you have control over what's going on, and if you can assume that you'll have good medical care and support throughout the pregnancy and during/after birth.  But, on both a physical and psychological level an unwanted pregnancy can be so devastating.





Very interesting post. Thank you.


I have never wanted children myself, but I think it´s more the idea of the responsibility of raising another human being, than the birth itself, that has scared me off. Although, I´m perfectly content with not having to go through a birth, I must say. It´s a nice perk O0

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2009, 05:52:20 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

AND a DEADLY risk for her life

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2009, 05:53:55 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

ALL the risks? No. Men have considerable mental and emotional skin in the game, as well as financial investment (as we have been discussing).

I'm not trying to say that anyone should be able to force a woman into a situation, but I do think that couples need to be able discuss these issues when there are differences, and that somehow both the mother and the father can come out of it with something.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2009, 05:56:01 pm »
ALL the risks? No. Men have considerable mental and emotional skin in the game, as well as financial investment (as we have been discussing).

I meant risks that is a direct result of being pregnant and giving birth, such as post birth depression etc.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2009, 05:59:21 pm »
but I do think that couples need to be able discuss these issues when there are differences, and that somehow both the mother and the father can come out of it with something.
Of course, it would be very good if the couple could come to some kind of agreement. It would be good thing for them both.


Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2009, 06:00:39 pm »
ALL the risks? No. Men have considerable mental and emotional skin in the game, as well as financial investment (as we have been discussing).

I'm not trying to say that anyone should be able to force a woman into a situation, but I do think that couples need to be able discuss these issues when there are differences, and that somehow both the mother and the father can come out of it with something.

You can´t compare womans life  with mens emotional issues. Its two different things. And a life, is more important then money and feelings if I want this baby or not

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2009, 06:01:01 pm »
I meant risks that is a direct result of being pregnant and giving birth, such as post birth depression etc.

Got it.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2009, 06:04:15 pm »
You can´t compare womans life  with mens emotional issues.

I wasn't.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2009, 06:04:33 pm »
Just wanted to say; thanks for a good debate everyone.


Abortion is always something that evokes a lot of emotion and is a topic that always makes for interesting posts.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2009, 06:06:06 pm »
I wasn't.

Please describe again what is that you want to say

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2009, 06:10:33 pm »
Please describe again what is that you want to say

Buffy brought up the mental risks, which both share. And then there are financial risks, which both share. I didn't say anything about the physical risks because I think we all know that men don't carry babies.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #127 on: June 08, 2009, 06:17:08 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

I think Buffy talks about both the mental and physical risks for a women. 

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #128 on: June 08, 2009, 06:19:11 pm »
Buffy brought up the mental risks, which both share. And then there are financial risks, which both share. I didn't say anything about the physical risks because I think we all know that men don't carry babies.

still it can be a physical risk for men, not deadly but they can feel a lot of pressure

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #129 on: June 08, 2009, 06:35:47 pm »

  This is a very interesting subject but I still wonder what do people think. Is abortion something only the pregnant woman should decide about?

Offline Kelda

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2009, 06:18:42 pm »
Just as an aside - I just found out via faceook tonight about my old friend Alison - face book is great eh!?!

She had a little girl 2 weeks ago at 24 weeks.. they've wrapped her in a tesco bag (Uk equivalent of walmart) to keep her warm...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2469357/Tiny-premature-baby-fights-for-life-inside-a-Tesco-bag.html




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Offline mariez

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #131 on: June 19, 2009, 03:04:15 pm »
Just as an aside - I just found out via faceook tonight about my old friend Alison - face book is great eh!?!

She had a little girl 2 weeks ago at 24 weeks.. they've wrapped her in a tesco bag (Uk equivalent of walmart) to keep her warm...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2469357/Tiny-premature-baby-fights-for-life-inside-a-Tesco-bag.html


Best Wishes to Alison, Graham and especially little Alex!

Kelda, in 1987, my neigbor gave birth at just under 24 weeks to her son Nick, who weighed in at exactly 1 lb.  The hospital published a special brochure on his birth as no other baby had survived being born so early before then.  Let Alison know that Nick will be 22 in August, loved to play sports from a young age and is an honors student at his university.  Little Alex has a bright future.
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2009, 04:08:35 pm »
Just as an aside - I just found out via faceook tonight about my old friend Alison - face book is great eh!?!

She had a little girl 2 weeks ago at 24 weeks.. they've wrapped her in a tesco bag (Uk equivalent of walmart) to keep her warm...

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2469357/Tiny-premature-baby-fights-for-life-inside-a-Tesco-bag.html


If I remember right, every child is wrapped or covered up with a blanket or tesco bag after an careful examination. And they get a little cap to keep there head  warm.





From what I know, every child do get wrapped or covered up with some kind of bag or blanket. And they also get a little cap to keep there head from giving up heat.  That doesn't have anything to do with date of birth. More likely the mothers body temperature and the surroundings.

Offline Kelda

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2009, 04:31:40 am »
Best Wishes to Alison, Graham and especially little Alex!

Kelda, in 1987, my neigbor gave birth at just under 24 weeks to her son Nick, who weighed in at exactly 1 lb.  The hospital published a special brochure on his birth as no other baby had survived being born so early before then.  Let Alison know that Nick will be 22 in August, loved to play sports from a young age and is an honors student at his university.  Little Alex has a bright future.

Aww, thanks Mariez! I will! 1lb eh.. thats small.... even by todays medical standards....

From what I know, every child do get wrapped or covered up with some kind of bag or blanket. And they also get a little cap to keep there head from giving up heat.  That doesn't have anything to do with date of birth. More likely the mothers body temperature and the surroundings.

and Sopy!
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