Author Topic: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider  (Read 48945 times)

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2009, 05:31:32 pm »
That's what I've been saying a round about way. Women have these rights. But in the process of their rights evolving, men have been left behind on this issue. Society has been so wrapped up (and rightly so) in protecting the rights of women and children, that little attention has been paid to how all of this effects men. (He said in a blog called "Women Today"  ;D)

why should men have rights to something going on inside a womens body? And MEN do have rights to say NO before they get involved in an sexual relationship. NO one force them to have sex!!! ;D

Offline Kelda

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2009, 05:33:22 pm »
why should men have rights to something going on inside a womens body? And MEN do have rights to say NO before they get involved in an sexual relationship. NO one force them to have sex!!! ;D

Or at least to take precautions - ie use condoms and ask the female to be on the pill - if he didn't want a baby.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2009, 05:37:27 pm »
For some people, it's not an option morally.

True.

OK, but marriage and child support still seem like separate issues. If the couple were married, the man would still have to help support the kid. Having the woman as his wife isn't some kind of payback or benefit for that.

Right. And I wasn't suggesting that marriage was a "payback."

My original point was that men who want to have sex should keep in mind the very real possibility that they are going to end up making a baby. As Amanda's post suggested, this is something that traditionally women have had to take much more seriously.

I don't know that I can say that men take it any more seriously than women, or that women take it any more seriously than men. I know men and women alike who have very cavalier attitudes about it, and those that give the issue the gravity it deserves.

I know that the way I was raised, getting a girl pregnant seemed on par with shooting someone through the head.

A man should be legally entitled to joint custody of any child he is legally required to help support.

Thank you.

Milo, I understand what you're saying, and I do think men should have a say in whether their fetus gets aborted or delivered as a baby. I just don't think their say should be equal to that of the mother's, because they do not take on an equal burden. I'm not sure what the best answer is.

It is a bit of a conundrum. Both parents should have some say in the fate of the unborn child. That is why I floated the family/civil court balloon. Some situations need mediation (arbitration), other situations need regulation.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2009, 05:39:27 pm »
why should men have rights to something going on inside a womens body?

1. They're invited in.

2. They "own" half of that child's DNA. The growing fetus if just as much the father's as it is the mother's.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2009, 05:45:11 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2009, 05:48:10 pm »
I think one thing that many men (no matter how compassionate) don't understand when it comes to debates like this... is how truly scary pregnancy is for women on many, many levels.

One time I was having a conversation (kind of a silly conversation) with my best gay-male friend (he considers himself a feminist and is pro-choice, etc.) about all the things I consider to be a benefit to being  lesbian when it comes to sex and relationships (and he was doing the same discussing the pros- of being a gay man).  And, I said, that I feel extraordinarily lucky that sex for me never involves having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.  And, he was shocked by this.  Truly.  He couldn't understand why I would think of this as a benefit.

To me, it's an enormous burden taken off of my shoulders when it comes to relationships.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be to have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy with every sexual encounter on top of the standard worries about diseases (since no birth control or condoms are 100% effective).

I think his lack of understanding simply comes down to not knowing how scary the prospect of pregnancy is.  Even for women who want to be pregnant it can be terrifying.  My Mom had a panic attack once when she was pregnant with me when she was taking a tour of the maternity wing of the hospital (and I was a planned pregnancy).

Of course, pregnancy is a wonderful thing if it's planned and you have control over what's going on, and if you can assume that you'll have good medical care and support throughout the pregnancy and during/after birth.  But, on both a physical and psychological level an unwanted pregnancy can be so devastating.






For me the things you are talking about is very important. That pregnancy ain't a piece of cake like dinner every night. It involves a lot of things.  And a good health care system can provide and help you with these things. Because it is very important that the mother is really taking care of both before and after the pregnancy, not just from experts but from other people in the same situation. And I do now from a lot of female and male friends that unexpected pregnancy's even if they are very hard  in the beginning they always and up as something delightful and happy.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2009, 05:49:57 pm »
I think one thing that many men (no matter how compassionate) don't understand when it comes to debates like this... is how truly scary pregnancy is for women on many, many levels.

One time I was having a conversation (kind of a silly conversation) with my best gay-male friend (he considers himself a feminist and is pro-choice, etc.) about all the things I consider to be a benefit to being  lesbian when it comes to sex and relationships (and he was doing the same discussing the pros- of being a gay man).  And, I said, that I feel extraordinarily lucky that sex for me never involves having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.  And, he was shocked by this.  Truly.  He couldn't understand why I would think of this as a benefit.

To me, it's an enormous burden taken off of my shoulders when it comes to relationships.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be to have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy with every sexual encounter on top of the standard worries about diseases (since no birth control or condoms are 100% effective).

I think his lack of understanding simply comes down to not knowing how scary the prospect of pregnancy is.  Even for women who want to be pregnant it can be terrifying.  My Mom had a panic attack once when she was pregnant with me when she was taking a tour of the maternity wing of the hospital (and I was a planned pregnancy).

Of course, pregnancy is a wonderful thing if it's planned and you have control over what's going on, and if you can assume that you'll have good medical care and support throughout the pregnancy and during/after birth.  But, on both a physical and psychological level an unwanted pregnancy can be so devastating.





Very interesting post. Thank you.


I have never wanted children myself, but I think it´s more the idea of the responsibility of raising another human being, than the birth itself, that has scared me off. Although, I´m perfectly content with not having to go through a birth, I must say. It´s a nice perk O0

Offline Sophia

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2009, 05:52:20 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

AND a DEADLY risk for her life

Offline milomorris

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2009, 05:53:55 pm »
We can never get around the fact that it is the woman who´s carrying the child It´s the woman´s body that gets reshaped.  It´s the woman who takes all the risks, both mental and physical.

This is why it is, and always should be the woman´s decision.

ALL the risks? No. Men have considerable mental and emotional skin in the game, as well as financial investment (as we have been discussing).

I'm not trying to say that anyone should be able to force a woman into a situation, but I do think that couples need to be able discuss these issues when there are differences, and that somehow both the mother and the father can come out of it with something.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2009, 05:56:01 pm »
ALL the risks? No. Men have considerable mental and emotional skin in the game, as well as financial investment (as we have been discussing).

I meant risks that is a direct result of being pregnant and giving birth, such as post birth depression etc.