What if....

[mvansand76]

...Alma jr. had looked in her daddy's closet while she was in his trailer? I know she doesn't seem like the type to be nosy and look in her daddy's closet, but what if she did, how would Ennis explain what she found there? It's not a very well-hidden shrine is it?

[Momof2]

Maybe she would have grabbed him and gave him a great big hug.  Then she would have told him she had known all along.  Especially when she told Cassie, "Maybe he aint the marring kind."
She knew her father was going on fishing trips with Jack.  She proably sensed how happy he was each time he came back.  I think as his daughter thatshe  obviously loved him even though she did not live with him for a long time.  Maybe "coming" out to her would have taken a little of the burden off of him and then he would have someone to help him through his grief.  I think daughters are more accepting of there fathers and have a hard time seeing fault in them. 

[serious crayons]

I think she would have gently and knowingly pushed the closet door closed again without saying anything.

I believe she at least suspects the truth about her dad. Not only "maybe he's not the marrying kind," but also her expression when he says "This Kurt fella, he loves you?" and then he gazes out the window with that heartbreaking expression. She pauses, peers closely at him, then gives that slow, sympathetic smile -- in that moment, she understands they're not just talking about Kurt.

I don't know if she exactly concludes that her dad is gay. But she knows there's more to his life than meets the eye, that he has been through some kind of heartbreaking experience that didn't involve either her mother or Cassie. And if she put two and two together ...

[ednbarby]

Maybe she would have grabbed him and gave him a great big hug.  Then she would have told him she had known all along.  Especially when she told Cassie, "Maybe he aint the marring kind."  She knew her father was going on fishing trips with Jack.  She proably sensed how happy he was each time he came back.  I think as his daughter thatshe  obviously loved him even though she did not live with him for a long time.  Maybe "coming" out to her would have taken a little of the burden off of him and then he would have someone to help him through his grief.  I think daughters are more accepting of there fathers and have a hard time seeing fault in them.

I'm with you.  I think Jr. knew all along.  I think she definitely knew when Ennis introduced Jack to her and Jenny in the post-divorce scene.  I liked how they both looked at him curiously, but not judgmentally.  They both knew.  And they both accepted it, I think, because kids are just more accepting, and girls besides.  I do credit Alma in a way for not poisoning their minds against gays like she certainly could have out of spite.

And the way Alma, Jr. says to Cassie, "You're good enough."  That's a dead giveaway.  You're good enough = You're not Jack, but you'll do as well as any other woman (or person, for that matter) who isn't.

Yes, I think she would hug him, too, and maybe even whisper something like, "You know, it's OK, Daddy."  She wouldn't know Jack had died, so she might think it's something he's keeping as a memento like Jack really was all those years.

Poop.  I think I need to cry again.

[mvansand76]

Not only "maybe he's not the marrying kind," but also her expression when he says "This Kurt fella, he loves you?" and then he gazes out the window with that heartbreaking expression. She pauses, peers closely at him, then gives that slow, sympathetic smile -- in that moment, she understands they're not just talking about Kurt.

Oh yes, definitely!

[2robots4u]

These are all beautiful possibilities, and none to really diagree with.  But after thinking about it for a while, I wonder if Jr. would have had any clue as to what the shirts mean, other than just 2 shirts hanging on the door.  The post card?  I think she would see it simply as a memento of a place her dad liked.

In all the descriptions I've read of Jr.'s reaction to Ennis's question, latrjoreme's "slow, sympathetic smile" is perfect.  When the smile starts, I just want to reach out and hug the girl for all she's worth...it is the face of a Botticelli angel.  For those of you who may not know, Botticelli was a Renaissance painter (circa 1510), probably most famous for his painting "The Birth of Venus".

Thanks to all for such great insights. 

And in response to the gentleman from the UK, I will use my name from now own...Doug

[serious crayons]

In all the descriptions I've read of Jr.'s reaction to Ennis's question, latrjoreme's "slow, sympathetic smile" is perfect. 

Thanks, Doug!  (And BTW, Doug is a lot easier to type than 2robots4u.)

And you may be right, Alma Jr. might not recognize the significance of the shrine. I had this other vision of her opening the closet and thinking, "Uh-oh, these shirts need washing. Poor Daddy, stuck way out here with no washing machine and so far from the laundromat. Oh well, I'll just take them home and throw them in with my next load."

Yet another addition to the laundry symbolism in the movie!

Seriously, I think she might realize something was up. The rest of Ennis' trailer is so austere that, if nothing else, the post card would stand out. (And maybe the fact that the lightweight plaid shirt is on the outside of the heavier denim; the opposite of how most people would wear them.)

[jpwagoneer1964]

Thanks, Doug!  (And BTW, Doug is a lot easier to type than 2robots4u.)

And you may be right, Alma Jr. might not recognize the significance of the shrine. I had this other vision of her opening the closet and thinking, "Uh-oh, these shirts need washing. Poor Daddy, stuck way out here with no washing machine and so far from the laundromat. Oh well, I'll just take them home and throw them in with my next load."

 

I don't think she would thought anthing  other that shirts hanging on the door, but I think something would have kept her  from taking them and washing them.

[ednbarby]

Thanks, Doug!  (And BTW, Doug is a lot easier to type than 2robots4u.)

And you may be right, Alma Jr. might not recognize the significance of the shrine. I had this other vision of her opening the closet and thinking, "Uh-oh, these shirts need washing. Poor Daddy, stuck way out here with no washing machine and so far from the laundromat. Oh well, I'll just take them home and throw them in with my next load."

Yet another addition to the laundry symbolism in the movie!

Seriously, I think she might realize something was up. The rest of Ennis' trailer is so austere that, if nothing else, the post card would stand out. (And maybe the fact that the lightweight plaid shirt is on the outside of the heavier denim; the opposite of how most people would wear them.

Agreed.  And if we dig a little deeper, I've gotta believe that in the space between Jack's death and that visit to Ennis' trailer, she'd have had to notice a sadness having descended upon her Daddy that eclipsed his already stoic nature.  I fully believe she'd see the shirts hanging in that way - separate from the others in the closet and hanging enshrined on the door like that - and knowing that her Dad never wore solid color/dark shirts (mine never has, either, come to think of it - he'll wear a solid sweater over a plaid or patterned shirt, but he never wears solid color button-down shirts), she'd know.

I love that smile of hers when Ennis asks her if "this Kurt" loves her, too.  And the one when he agrees to come to her wedding - that one makes my heart sing even more loudly than the one before it.

[2robots4u]

ednbarby..I got confused.  It was the 2nd smile to which I should have been referring.  Thanks for the brain jolt...Doug

[serious crayons]

ednbarby..I got confused.  It was the 2nd smile to which I should have been referring.  Thanks for the brain jolt...Doug

Well, for the record, I was referring to the first smile. The second one is fine; I'm glad to see her happy about the wedding plans. But it's that depth of recognition and understanding and sympathy in the first one that I love. At least, I think that's what it is.

[ednbarby]

Well, for the record, I was referring to the first smile. The second one is fine; I'm glad to see her happy about the wedding plans. But it's that depth of recognition and understanding and sympathy in the first one that I love. At least, I think that's what it is.

I love 'em both.  But then I've always figured Jr. knew all along about Jack, so that understanding and sympathetic smile comes as no surprise.  I do think it's lovely that she does it just for her father's benefit, though, as if to try to convey to him that she knows fully the depth of meaning from whence his words come, even if he is only just coming to know it himself.

But that second smile - the way her face just opens up like a flower.  That makes my heart soar every time, because as I watch her lick her lips and cast her eyes down just like Jack always did when he was biting back his disappointment and heartbreak and that tiny shock of recognition on Ennis' face when he sees that, then turns, goes to the fridge and says, "You know what?" ...  The whole sequence is just breathtaking.

[serious crayons]

I've always figured Jr. knew all along about Jack, so that understanding and sympathetic smile comes as no surprise.  I do think it's lovely that she does it just for her father's benefit, though, as if to try to convey to him that she knows fully the depth of meaning from whence his words come, even if he is only just coming to know it himself.

Well, in my view she doesn't really know about Jack even then (I unfortunately can't agree that she got what was going on back on that day when she was 12 years old and sitting in the pickup truck). Yet I think she already knows enough that this moment isn't entirely a revelation to her. Not, "Daddy is gay and apparently has lost the man he loved." But not total obliviousness either. Something in between. I think his question about love makes her ears perk up (for the same reason it does ours) and alerts her that there's more than Kurt on his mind, so she looks at him and sees that he's in pain, and obviously it has to do with love, and it can't possibly be Cassie, so ... what does that leave? Maybe she just thinks he's lonely. In any case, I see her smile as signaling support and sympathy. (Sorry for the alliteration.)

[Aussie Chris]

Well, in my view she doesn't really know about Jack even then (I unfortunately can't agree that she got what was going on back on that day when she was 12 years old and sitting in the pickup truck). Yet I think she already knows enough that this moment isn't entirely a revelation to her. Not, "Daddy is gay and apparently has lost the man he loved." But not total obliviousness either. Something in between. I think his question about love makes her ears perk up (for the same reason it does ours) and alerts her that there's more than Kurt on his mind, so she looks at him and sees that he's in pain, and obviously it has to do with love, and it can't possibly be Cassie, so ... what does that leave? Maybe she just thinks he's lonely. In any case, I see her smile as signaling support and sympathy. (Sorry for the alliteration.)

Ugh, this topic makes my heart sink, so melancholy.  I tend to agree Katherine, that Jr is somewhere in between completely understanding and not.  But I do think there is a level of recognition of why Ennis is so sad and alone, one that is actually quite familiar to her... err, I'm referring to the longing not the sexuality.  I think Jr is more like Ennis than any one else in the world, but I think she is also more self-aware than Ennis, and even of  Ennis.  Like you say Katherine, Jr understands the question about love is not just about Kurt, and she's a lot brighter than Ennis after all...

[ekeby]

Well, in my view she doesn't really know about Jack even then (I unfortunately can't agree that she got what was going on back on that day when she was 12 years old and sitting in the pickup truck). Yet I think she already knows enough that this moment isn't entirely a revelation to her. Not, "Daddy is gay and apparently has lost the man he loved." But not total obliviousness either. Something in between. I think his question about love makes her ears perk up (for the same reason it does ours) and alerts her that there's more than Kurt on his mind, so she looks at him and sees that he's in pain, and obviously it has to do with love, and it can't possibly be Cassie, so ... what does that leave? Maybe she just thinks he's lonely. In any case, I see her smile as signaling support and sympathy. (Sorry for the alliteration.)

Glad to read this discussion. In my opinion, this dialog between Ennis and Jr. is the biggest emotional punch in the movie, more even than the last straightening-the-postcard business. The screenplay says that Jr. is surprised and started at the question, which touches her. It's the defining moment of the movie. I've watched that particular scene several times, and Mara's beautifully delivered response gives Ennis's question even more weight. Ennis's phrasing is unusual because what a father would usually ask the daughter is "do YOU love HIM." Ennis turns it around, putting emphasis on male love, kurt's, and, indirectly, his own. It is that moment where the missing  "I love you" finally appears in the movie.

My own opinion is that if Jr. realizes anything, she understands that her father knows what love is. That alone would be quite a revelation for a teenager in the throes of love herself. She quickly moves on to "We were hoping you'd be there", returning the conversation to her primary concern, her upcoming marriage. Her flick of disappointment and frustration when he says he thinks he'll be on a roundup down in the Tetons is amazing. When Ennis sees that, he realizes how important that day will be to her, and he does not want to take anything away from what should be a perfect celebration of her love for Kurt.

[ednbarby]

Also built into the question, I think, is Ennis' acknowledgment that he didn't really love her mother, and that he hurt her profoundly by living a lie.  Not only is he acknowledging, of course, that he loves Jack, but that he doesn't want Alma, Jr. to go through the pain her mother did by marrying someone whose love for her isn't true.

I agree - it's the defining moment of the film.  And like I say, it really does take my breath away (at least I always find myself holding it, then finally exhaling) every time I watch it.

[serious crayons]

Mara's beautifully delivered response gives Ennis's question even more weight.

My own opinion is that if Jr. realizes anything, she understands that her father knows what love is. That alone would be quite a revelation for a teenager in the throes of love herself.

Well put, Ekeby.

After all, she knows he didn't love Cassie and probably suspects he didn't love her mother. So her recognition here may not be anything more than a realization that he has, at some point, loved and lost, and that judging from his expression he's still in pain over it.

Ennis's phrasing is unusual because what a father would usually ask the daughter is "do YOU love HIM." Ennis turns it around, putting emphasis on male love, kurt's, and, indirectly, his own. It is that moment where the missing  "I love you" finally appears in the movie.

And not only would Ennis phrase the question differently, but he'd probably ask a million other things about Kurt. But his mind, at the moment, is elsewhere ...

[Brown Eyes]

I think that if Alma Jr. were to find the shirts in the closet (and I think there's a strong possiblity that she would find them at some point) it might at least spark a dialogue.  It would be very interesting, because I do think she understands that there's something complex about her Dad and I do think she understands that Jack was a mysterious and very important force in the dynamics of their family and important to her Dad period.  I agree that she's someplace between being clueless and completely understanding that Ennis is gay and was in love with Jack.  Still the "your good enough' conversation with Cassie is very suspicious.  Alma Jr. definitely knows something.

I have the same anxiety that many of you have... that someone someday will mistakenly wash those shirts.  Now, that would be just too heartbreaking for words.  I can't even imagine what that would to to Ennis.
 

[Front-Ranger]

Don't worry everybody!! I saw the shirts at Rockmount Western Wear and they were safely encased under glass!!  Though I didn't see any blood on them, however...

[ekeby]

Don't worry everybody!! I saw the shirts at Rockmount Western Wear and they were safely encased under glass!!  Though I didn't see any blood on them, however...

I read that the shirts had been laundered before they were put up for sale . . . I remember thinking "why?"