What if....

[serious crayons]

ednbarby..I got confused.  It was the 2nd smile to which I should have been referring.  Thanks for the brain jolt...Doug

Well, for the record, I was referring to the first smile. The second one is fine; I'm glad to see her happy about the wedding plans. But it's that depth of recognition and understanding and sympathy in the first one that I love. At least, I think that's what it is.

[ednbarby]

Well, for the record, I was referring to the first smile. The second one is fine; I'm glad to see her happy about the wedding plans. But it's that depth of recognition and understanding and sympathy in the first one that I love. At least, I think that's what it is.

I love 'em both.  But then I've always figured Jr. knew all along about Jack, so that understanding and sympathetic smile comes as no surprise.  I do think it's lovely that she does it just for her father's benefit, though, as if to try to convey to him that she knows fully the depth of meaning from whence his words come, even if he is only just coming to know it himself.

But that second smile - the way her face just opens up like a flower.  That makes my heart soar every time, because as I watch her lick her lips and cast her eyes down just like Jack always did when he was biting back his disappointment and heartbreak and that tiny shock of recognition on Ennis' face when he sees that, then turns, goes to the fridge and says, "You know what?" ...  The whole sequence is just breathtaking.

[serious crayons]

I've always figured Jr. knew all along about Jack, so that understanding and sympathetic smile comes as no surprise.  I do think it's lovely that she does it just for her father's benefit, though, as if to try to convey to him that she knows fully the depth of meaning from whence his words come, even if he is only just coming to know it himself.

Well, in my view she doesn't really know about Jack even then (I unfortunately can't agree that she got what was going on back on that day when she was 12 years old and sitting in the pickup truck). Yet I think she already knows enough that this moment isn't entirely a revelation to her. Not, "Daddy is gay and apparently has lost the man he loved." But not total obliviousness either. Something in between. I think his question about love makes her ears perk up (for the same reason it does ours) and alerts her that there's more than Kurt on his mind, so she looks at him and sees that he's in pain, and obviously it has to do with love, and it can't possibly be Cassie, so ... what does that leave? Maybe she just thinks he's lonely. In any case, I see her smile as signaling support and sympathy. (Sorry for the alliteration.)

[Aussie Chris]

Well, in my view she doesn't really know about Jack even then (I unfortunately can't agree that she got what was going on back on that day when she was 12 years old and sitting in the pickup truck). Yet I think she already knows enough that this moment isn't entirely a revelation to her. Not, "Daddy is gay and apparently has lost the man he loved." But not total obliviousness either. Something in between. I think his question about love makes her ears perk up (for the same reason it does ours) and alerts her that there's more than Kurt on his mind, so she looks at him and sees that he's in pain, and obviously it has to do with love, and it can't possibly be Cassie, so ... what does that leave? Maybe she just thinks he's lonely. In any case, I see her smile as signaling support and sympathy. (Sorry for the alliteration.)

Ugh, this topic makes my heart sink, so melancholy.  I tend to agree Katherine, that Jr is somewhere in between completely understanding and not.  But I do think there is a level of recognition of why Ennis is so sad and alone, one that is actually quite familiar to her... err, I'm referring to the longing not the sexuality.  I think Jr is more like Ennis than any one else in the world, but I think she is also more self-aware than Ennis, and even of  Ennis.  Like you say Katherine, Jr understands the question about love is not just about Kurt, and she's a lot brighter than Ennis after all...

[ekeby]

Well, in my view she doesn't really know about Jack even then (I unfortunately can't agree that she got what was going on back on that day when she was 12 years old and sitting in the pickup truck). Yet I think she already knows enough that this moment isn't entirely a revelation to her. Not, "Daddy is gay and apparently has lost the man he loved." But not total obliviousness either. Something in between. I think his question about love makes her ears perk up (for the same reason it does ours) and alerts her that there's more than Kurt on his mind, so she looks at him and sees that he's in pain, and obviously it has to do with love, and it can't possibly be Cassie, so ... what does that leave? Maybe she just thinks he's lonely. In any case, I see her smile as signaling support and sympathy. (Sorry for the alliteration.)

Glad to read this discussion. In my opinion, this dialog between Ennis and Jr. is the biggest emotional punch in the movie, more even than the last straightening-the-postcard business. The screenplay says that Jr. is surprised and started at the question, which touches her. It's the defining moment of the movie. I've watched that particular scene several times, and Mara's beautifully delivered response gives Ennis's question even more weight. Ennis's phrasing is unusual because what a father would usually ask the daughter is "do YOU love HIM." Ennis turns it around, putting emphasis on male love, kurt's, and, indirectly, his own. It is that moment where the missing  "I love you" finally appears in the movie.

My own opinion is that if Jr. realizes anything, she understands that her father knows what love is. That alone would be quite a revelation for a teenager in the throes of love herself. She quickly moves on to "We were hoping you'd be there", returning the conversation to her primary concern, her upcoming marriage. Her flick of disappointment and frustration when he says he thinks he'll be on a roundup down in the Tetons is amazing. When Ennis sees that, he realizes how important that day will be to her, and he does not want to take anything away from what should be a perfect celebration of her love for Kurt.

[ednbarby]

Also built into the question, I think, is Ennis' acknowledgment that he didn't really love her mother, and that he hurt her profoundly by living a lie.  Not only is he acknowledging, of course, that he loves Jack, but that he doesn't want Alma, Jr. to go through the pain her mother did by marrying someone whose love for her isn't true.

I agree - it's the defining moment of the film.  And like I say, it really does take my breath away (at least I always find myself holding it, then finally exhaling) every time I watch it.

[serious crayons]

Mara's beautifully delivered response gives Ennis's question even more weight.

My own opinion is that if Jr. realizes anything, she understands that her father knows what love is. That alone would be quite a revelation for a teenager in the throes of love herself.

Well put, Ekeby.

After all, she knows he didn't love Cassie and probably suspects he didn't love her mother. So her recognition here may not be anything more than a realization that he has, at some point, loved and lost, and that judging from his expression he's still in pain over it.

Ennis's phrasing is unusual because what a father would usually ask the daughter is "do YOU love HIM." Ennis turns it around, putting emphasis on male love, kurt's, and, indirectly, his own. It is that moment where the missing  "I love you" finally appears in the movie.

And not only would Ennis phrase the question differently, but he'd probably ask a million other things about Kurt. But his mind, at the moment, is elsewhere ...

[Brown Eyes]

I think that if Alma Jr. were to find the shirts in the closet (and I think there's a strong possiblity that she would find them at some point) it might at least spark a dialogue.  It would be very interesting, because I do think she understands that there's something complex about her Dad and I do think she understands that Jack was a mysterious and very important force in the dynamics of their family and important to her Dad period.  I agree that she's someplace between being clueless and completely understanding that Ennis is gay and was in love with Jack.  Still the "your good enough' conversation with Cassie is very suspicious.  Alma Jr. definitely knows something.

I have the same anxiety that many of you have... that someone someday will mistakenly wash those shirts.  Now, that would be just too heartbreaking for words.  I can't even imagine what that would to to Ennis.
 

[Front-Ranger]

Don't worry everybody!! I saw the shirts at Rockmount Western Wear and they were safely encased under glass!!  Though I didn't see any blood on them, however...

[ekeby]

Don't worry everybody!! I saw the shirts at Rockmount Western Wear and they were safely encased under glass!!  Though I didn't see any blood on them, however...

I read that the shirts had been laundered before they were put up for sale . . . I remember thinking "why?"