Author Topic: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway  (Read 106497 times)

Offline BayCityJohn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
    • BBM Foundation
Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« on: July 14, 2009, 07:11:00 pm »
Willie Nelson's Lost Highway Will Include Three New Songs

A compilation of Willie Nelson's music during his time at Lost Highway Records will be released on Aug. 11 with three previously unreleased songs. The 17-track album, also titled Lost Highway, features Grammy-winning duets with Ray Price ("Lost Highway") and Lee Ann Womack ("Mendocino County Line"), as well as "Beer for My Horses," his No. 1 hit with Toby Keith. Other guests on the album include Elvis Costello, Diana Krall, Shania Twain and Lucinda Williams.

Kenny Chesney co-produced one of the previously unreleased tracks, "Ain't Going Down on Brokeback Mountain," which Nelson recorded during the sessions for his 2008 album, Moment of Forever.

The other two previously unreleased tracks -- "Superman" and "Both Sides of Goodbye" -- come from Nelson's recording sessions in 2005 with songwriter-producer Chips Moman.

http://www.cmt.com/news/news-in-brief/1616259/willie-nelsons-lost-highway-will-include-three-new-songs.jhtml[/url

Offline southendmd

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,042
  • well, I won't
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 07:27:06 pm »
Decide for yourself:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyF93_kwGeI[/youtube]

(Couldn't find Willie's version--this is by someone called "Saddle Sores".)

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 12:31:54 am »
 :-\

I really hope that's not the version Willie will be singing...

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2009, 12:37:25 am »


http://main.losthighwayrecords.com/artist/releases/release.aspx?pid=1762&aid=61


His version is called:  Ain't Goin' Back To Brokeback Mountain

The album also features "Cowboys Are Frequently Secretly Fond of Eachother"...

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2009, 12:43:58 am »
Although Buy.com lists it as Ain't Going Down On Brokeback Mountain   :-\  :-\

http://www.buy.com/prod/lost-highway/q/loc/109/211442478.html

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2009, 01:00:15 am »
After doing some searching on the net, I do believe it is the same song Willie is singing.  I have to say I'm very disappointed by this.  >:(

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2009, 01:54:08 am »
What do other folks think of this?

Right now I'm sitting here livid.  I feel completely betrayed that Willie would sing and record such a song.  I feel as though we've lost someone who was once an ally.    Willie, you can go fuck yourself, 'cause "that shit ain't right".  I actually feel threatened and betrayed enough to remove all of his tracks off of BBM Radio.  How 'bout that?  >:(


Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,326
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2009, 10:23:09 am »
I feel the same way. I don't even want to hear the sound of his voice ennimore. I'll stick with Bob Dylan's rendition of He was a Friend of Mine.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline southendmd

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,042
  • well, I won't
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2009, 01:06:51 pm »
It is a betrayal of sorts.

Actually, I felt the same about the "Cowboys are frequently, secretly" song, even though that one predates BBM.  It equates being gay with wanting to be a woman.

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 08:26:01 pm »
Has anyone heard Willie's version yet?

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2009, 01:14:31 am »
Well, unfortunately it's true.  Willie sings that he "ain't goin' down on Brokeback Mountain... That shit ain't right".

 :-\


You can hear Willie's version of the song on this site if you want:  
http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/redletter/2009/08/willie-nelson-goes-both-ways-o.html
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 12:36:36 pm by sfericsf »

Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2009, 02:58:04 am »
      There is a site where you can purchase the album, or just those songs.   His version is the same as the one on the top.

      There is a comment section, and you can put your thoughts there.  I  did for sure.  What a hypocrite.  Trying to get
paid from both sides of the fence...



     Beautiful mind

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2009, 12:36:09 pm »
Definitely hippocrite is the best way to describe him Janice!!  >:(

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,566
  • Those were the days, Alberta 2007.
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2009, 03:42:44 pm »
I agree. I always liked him but anymore it is like he'll do anything for a buck.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 12:58:05 am »
Wow, this really is terrible. :(  Somehow I missed this thread until now.  I agree that it feels like a betrayal and... it absolutely feels like he's trying to cash in on both sides of the fence.  I'm actually kind of shocked that Willie Nelson would sing something that crass and negative.  I guess I don't know all that much about him, but somehow it's not something I would have expected from him at all.

:(

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 09:49:03 am »
Its a joke.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2009, 10:47:18 am »
The video contains no actual video footage; only an image of a ketchup spill that resembles a blood-spattered wall.  

Co-author Wynn Varble described the song as being "all in fun."  Here's a fun fiction illustration of a few rednecks putting what "ain't right" right:




Striped Wall has a horribly graphic closeup from that scene (which I'm not going to post here), at http://www.stripedwall.com/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_3564.jpg  You might want to check that one out; it's a real-knee-slapper.  Especially in its full size.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 04:05:21 am by Marge_Innavera »

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 10:52:03 am »
The YouTube version doesn't have any video -- just an image of smeared ketchup that looks like a blood-spattered wall.

Yep, it's a joke all right.  As funny as any image of a gay man after being beaten to death that I've ever seen.

That's an interesting interpretation. Having seen a few blood splattered surfaces in my day, I have to disagree. I see ketchup, and wish I had some fries to go with it.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2009, 11:19:14 am »
The video contains no footage of Nelson singing; only an image of a ketchup spill that resembles a blood-spattered wall.  Varble has described the song as being "all in fun."


Co-author Wynn Varble described the song as being "all in fun."  Here's a fun fiction illustration of a few rednecks putting what "ain't right" right:




Striped Wall has a horribly graphic closeup from that scene (which I'm not going to post here), at http://www.stripedwall.com/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_3564.jpg  You might want to check that one out; it's a real-knee-slapper.  Especially in its full size.



((((Jack)))))

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 11:28:52 am »
((((Jack)))))

Right.   :(

The graphic image I later found kinda takes the 'fun' out of that song, which apparently a few people found amusing.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 12:22:14 pm »
The link isnt working says error.  I hate to think Willie wil do anything for money but if ithis is true he's a real loser.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 02:14:17 pm »
The link isnt working says error.  I hate to think Willie wil do anything for money but if ithis is true he's a real loser.

I keep hoping that this is some kind of horrible prank or joke.  I'm not a Willie Nelson fan in general, but I still have a hard time thinking of him as the type of musician to put something like that out.  It makes me sad too because it really does put something of a damper on how I feel about the BBM soundtrack.

I agree that the Dylan version is better, but still... All the BBM soundtrack versions are so ingrained in me now.  Sigh.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline loneleeb3

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Posting Vacation
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *
  • Posts: 4,970
  • I swear.............
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 11:16:32 pm »
What an asshole!
I guess all those years of "clean livin" finally caught up with him.
I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
And Kenny Chesney produced it???
Talk about a hypocrite!!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2009, 12:13:16 am »
Well, I'm just now catching up on this too, and I am feeling very angry and betrayed.

This man's songs were my lullabies...there's not one of them I don't know by heart.

Like others have said, profiting from He Was a Friend of Mine for Brokeback Mountain, then coming out with this homophobic trash is simply unconscionable.

Thank you for removing him from BBM Radio, Eric.  It was the right thing to do.  While you're at it, get rid of any Kenny Chesney we might have.

I feel more letter-writing coming on...

Dumbass mules.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline David In Indy

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,447
  • You've Got Male
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 12:19:26 am »
I love country music. I grew up on this stuff. But one thing I have found, unfortunately, is that many of these country singers are homophobic. Very homophobic. I was very surprised when I found out that Willie Nelson was *cough* pro gay *cough* and I figured it was too good to be true...

I guess it was... :-\

I'm sure there are a few enlightened country music singers. It would be refreshing if we knew who they are. Dolly Parton is pro gay. So is Loretta Lynn. And I think Reba McEntire is an ally of ours. But I'm not certain about it.

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline southendmd

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,042
  • well, I won't
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2009, 08:28:27 pm »
Homophobia is alive and well in country music.

F*ck Willie Nelson.

F*ck Kenney Chesney.

That ketchup-splattered still is a veiled threat.  F*ck your fries. 

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2009, 07:15:22 pm »
Just so, Paul. Thank you.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2009, 07:47:27 pm »
Its a joke.

Sorry do you mean angrily, "this is a JOKE.. grrr...." or "c'mon guys this is a joke"

If its the latter, well I think you're living in some fantasy world. Those lyrics and the ketchup bottle.. if its not meant to be blood whats the significance Milo? Can you please explain? Do Gay folk like their chips (sorry french fries) with tomato sauce - is that some sort of proven fact??  >:( ;) >:

I hadn't seen this thread till today... ugh. Absolutely right Amanda - trying to cash in on both sides of the fence.
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline Sason

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,234
  • Bork bork bork
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2009, 08:22:51 pm »
What does the frase "going down on" something mean? ???

DĆ¼va pƶƶp is a fƶrce of natĆ¼re

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2009, 08:26:45 pm »
'Going down on' can mean to perform fellatio (or cunnilingus) on someone.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 09:59:42 pm »
That ketchup-splattered still is a veiled threat.  F*ck your fries. 

The interesting thing about a work of art is that everyone brings their own experiences and interpretations to understanding it. Unless we get a word from the creator of the work himself, we have no idea who is "right" and who is "wrong." As the quote on the entry page of this site states:

"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts."
- Annie Proulx

So it is with Willie's song, and the video in question.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2009, 10:18:43 pm »
Sorry do you mean angrily, "this is a JOKE.. grrr...." or "c'mon guys this is a joke"

If its the latter, well I think you're living in some fantasy world. Those lyrics and the ketchup bottle.. if its not meant to be blood whats the significance Milo? Can you please explain? Do Gay folk like their chips (sorry french fries) with tomato sauce - is that some sort of proven fact??  >:( ;) >:

I hadn't seen this thread till today... ugh. Absolutely right Amanda - trying to cash in on both sides of the fence.

"Joke" as in a parody. I think Willie is making fun of those who use Brokeback Mountain as a homophobic slur. Its like that song often sung by operatic sopranos titled, "I Hate Music, but I Like to Sing."

The ketchup bottle?? It suggests someone who was so shocked/surprised at experiencing something that s/he dropped the bottle they were holding. Its kinda old-school slapstick. Like when "sis" announces that she is pregnant, and "dad" drops his glass of water.  

When I mentioned fries, I was talking about my own taste for them. In the US, ketchup goes with fries.

I don't live in a fantasy world. You have no idea what my world is like, so I'll thank you to stick to the subject at hand, and not attempt to analyze my personality. Its not productive, and you'll never get it right.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2009, 10:32:51 pm »
"Joke" as in a parody. I think Willie is making fun of those who use Brokeback Mountain as a homophobic slur. Its like that song often sung by operatic sopranos titled, "I Hate Music, but I Like to Sing."

The ketchup bottle?? It suggests someone who was so shocked/surprised at experiencing something that s/he dropped the bottle they were holding. Its kinda old-school slapstick. Like when "sis" announces that she is pregnant, and "dad" drops his glass of water.  

When I mentioned fries, I was talking about my own taste for them. In the US, ketchup goes with fries.

I don't live in a fantasy world. You have no idea what my world is like, so I'll thank you to stick to the subject at hand, and not attempt to analyze my personality. Its not productive, and you'll never get it right.

I hope you're right that it's meant as a parody, but I don't buy it.  If it is, I think Willie should make a very clear statement saying so.

As I said, my childhood foundation is feeling a bit shaken.

I believe it to be in the absolutely worst taste.  I see nothing humorous on the subject of gay bashing, no matter how you want to twist it....pun intended.

And I'm still looking for valid addresses; when I find them, I'll ask them myself.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2009, 10:43:53 pm »
I hope you're right that it's meant as a parody, but I don't buy it.

I'm not selling it...Willie is. I'm just saying that, IMO, there's nothing in this song that's any "worse" than the BBM jokes made by Leno, Letterman, O'Brien, Kimmel, or any other on-air personality has made over the years.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Kerry

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,076
  • ^ In pursuit of Captain Moonlite - 5 Sept 2009
    • Google Profile
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2009, 11:12:14 pm »

I don't buy it either. I'm very disappointed in Willie Nelson for allowing himself to be associated with this. What an arsehole he is.  >:(
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2009, 11:14:12 pm »
I'm not selling it...Willie is. I'm just saying that, IMO, there's nothing in this song that's any "worse" than the BBM jokes made by Leno, Letterman, O'Brien, Kimmel, or any other on-air personality has made over the years.

Of course it's worse, Milo, because Willie profited from Brokeback Mountain.  Do you not recognize the hypocrisy?

And I don't recall any late night talk-show jokes endorsing gay bashing, just ones about the gay cowboy movie, sheep, getting it on in tents or with the sheep, etc...not gay-supportive, but definitely not promoting violence against gays in the way this does.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2009, 11:19:13 pm »
Of course it's worse, Milo, because Willie profited from Brokeback Mountain.  Do you not recognize the hypocrisy?

And I don't recall any late night talk-show jokes endorsing gay bashing, just ones about the gay cowboy movie, sheep, getting it on in tents or with the sheep, etc...not gay-supportive, but definitely not promoting violence against gays in the way this does.

Lynne, what violence are you talking about?? I don't hear a single violent lyric in the whole song. All I hear is cornball phrases, and whimsical instrumental tracks.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2009, 11:39:00 pm »
They'll see it as an endorsement of their hatred of gay men.  It doesn't matter what other kinds of messages Willie Nelson has put out there, or will put out there in the future.  If the crowd I'm talking about hears this song, they will take it at face value.  Nelson has been around long enough to know that, so if this was meant as a joke, he should have remembered who his audience might be.  

Yeah, there's a whole lot of people out there who will see this as a joke -- a joke on gay people.  I can hear the chuckles now.  

There was a time when people thought that Picasso should have known better than to paint images like this...



...because some men ("simpler"men) might think its OK to beat on women. They were worried about the distortions of the face & body.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2009, 11:49:09 pm »
I'm with you, Paul.  Being from the south, I know just how the rednecks, homophobes, and the Bible thumpers will take this crap.  They'll see it as an endorsement of their hatred of gay men.  It doesn't matter what other kinds of messages Willie Nelson has put out there, or will put out there in the future.  If the crowd I'm talking about hears this song, they will take it at face value.  Nelson has been around long enough to know that, so if this was meant as a joke, he should have remembered who his audience might be.  

Yeah, there's a whole lot of people out there who will see this as a joke -- a joke on gay people.  I can hear the chuckles now.  

Yep !
He knows who his audience is on this.
He ain't no dummy.


Willie has been smoking too much weed.  It's screwed up his mind.

 ;D

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2009, 01:41:27 am »
I'm with you, Paul.  Being from the south, I know just how the rednecks, homophobes, and the Bible thumpers will take this crap.  They'll see it as an endorsement of their hatred of gay men.
Yeah, I have read some of the comments people have left to this video on youtube. ThatĀ“s exactly how it is.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2009, 02:10:12 am »
The ketchup bottle?? It suggests someone who was so shocked/surprised at experiencing something that s/he dropped the bottle they were holding. Its kinda old-school slapstick. Like when "sis" announces that she is pregnant, and "dad" drops his glass of water.  

There's no context for that in the song; and for the benefit of our non-American members, dropping a ketchup bottle in moments of surprise and shock is not an American idiom.  I doubt any American on this thread has heard of that before now.   And I also doubt anyone here seriously believes that the resemblance to a blood spatter is a coincidence.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2009, 02:14:16 am »
I hope you're right that it's meant as a parody, but I don't buy it.  

I don't either, but it sounds familiar.

Back in the 1970s, there was a kerfuffle about violent and generally offensive lyrics in popular music, much of it led by Tipper Gore.  During the media coverage it became a cliche for rock musicians questioned about offensive lyrics to claim that they were a "spoof."  That was even satirized a little later in the faux-rockumentary This Is Spinal Tap when a member of the band (generally modeled on Deep Purple) defends the lyrics of a song titled "Smell the Glove."   ::)

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2009, 05:18:28 am »
Ugh.

I bet he was teased - or worse - for having a song in BBM and then doing Cowboys Are Secretly Fond of Each Other, and this is his reaction to distance himself.

I agree with Paul, I've never liked Cowboys Are Secretly Fond of Each Other, it's disrespectful of gay men AND women, in the way it conflates the two.

One thing in fairness, or accuracy, the ketchup splat is NOT Willie Nelson's version. 

But still, what the fuck?

I'm proud to see Brokie names I recognize in the comments section of the YouTube video.  I'm about to go add mine.


Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2009, 08:22:56 am »
There's no context for that in the song; and for the benefit of our non-American members, dropping a ketchup bottle in moments of surprise and shock is not an American idiom.  I doubt any American on this thread has heard of that before now.   And I also doubt anyone here seriously believes that the resemblance to a blood spatter is a coincidence.

I never said dropping a ketchup bottle was an American idiom. I said eating ketchup with fries is an American idiom. I said dropping a glass of water (or anything really) is a stock, old-school, slapstick gag. I'm sure plenty of people around the world, including Americans, are familiar with that.

I suppose some could interpret the ketchup as a blood splatter if they were looking for yet another reason to perpetuate an attitude of victimhood. I remember years ago, there was a TV commercial for Hefty trash bags. A white lady in suburbia takes a bag of trash out to the curb, and a black sanitation worker picks it up and tosses it into the back of the truck. They smile at each other and wave. A few black folks claimed that commercial was racist.

Besides, blood splatter patterns have unique characteristics because of the consistency of blood, and the fact that it is under pressure inside the body. Splattered blood doesn't just come out looking like a blob. It typically includes directional patters. Of course now someone is sure to come up with a picture of a blood stain that looks just like the ketchup to "prove" me wrong.

People see what they want to see.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2009, 09:03:33 am »
Ugh.

I bet he was teased - or worse - for having a song in BBM and then doing Cowboys Are Secretly Fond of Each Other, and this is his reaction to distance himself.

I agree with Paul, I've never liked Cowboys Are Secretly Fond of Each Other, it's disrespectful of gay men AND women, in the way it conflates the two.

One thing in fairness, or accuracy, the ketchup splat is NOT Willie Nelson's version.  

But still, what the fuck?

I'm proud to see Brokie names I recognize in the comments section of the YouTube video.  I'm about to go add mine.


I will too.
IĀ“ve sent a mail to an address on Willie NelsonĀ“s website as well. Not that I think heĀ“ll read it of course, but it felt good.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2009, 10:40:46 am »
People see what they want to see.
And they don't see what  they don't want to acknowledge.

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2009, 10:51:20 am »
There's no context for that in the song; and for the benefit of our non-American members, dropping a ketchup bottle in moments of surprise and shock is not an American idiom.  I doubt any American on this thread has heard of that before now.   And I also doubt anyone here seriously believes that the resemblance to a blood spatter is a coincidence.

exactly my point Marge.

I never said dropping a ketchup bottle was an American idiom. I said eating ketchup with fries is an American idiom. I said dropping a glass of water (or anything really) is a stock, old-school, slapstick gag. I'm sure plenty of people around the world, including Americans, are familiar with that.

I suppose some could interpret the ketchup as a blood splatter if they were looking for yet another reason to perpetuate an attitude of victimhood. I remember years ago, there was a TV commercial for Hefty trash bags. A white lady in suburbia takes a bag of trash out to the curb, and a black sanitation worker picks it up and tosses it into the back of the truck. They smile at each other and wave. A few black folks claimed that commercial was racist.

Besides, blood splatter patterns have unique characteristics because of the consistency of blood, and the fact that it is under pressure inside the body. Splattered blood doesn't just come out looking like a blob. It typically includes directional patters. Of course now someone is sure to come up with a picture of a blood stain that looks just like the ketchup to "prove" me wrong.

People see what they want to see.

The eating ketchup with fries is no more an American idiom as it is in a UK idiom. Still dont see how it has any relevance to the song at hand. I still dont see how a slapstick gag fits with the song..? If you think the blood splatter is a stretch (and go into the deatil about how blood splatters as you have done above) how isn't your interpretation also a stretch about showing a american idiom and a slapstick nature to the song?

So I think Buffy has a point when she says:

And they don't see what that they don't want to acknowledge.

That's why I mentioned the fantasy world earlier.

Like Lynne said, I'd love it to be a paradoy but I dont buy it.
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2009, 11:08:18 am »
The eating ketchup with fries is no more an American idiom as it is in a UK idiom.

Really?? Try offering your average Joe from the Bronx malt vinegar with his fries and see what he has to say about that.

But that is totally beside the point. I see a broken bottle of ketchup, Marge sees a metaphor for blood. She's saying the image is violent, I'm saying "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

As I said earlier, unless we hear from the artist (either Willie or Saddlesore) we don't know which of our interpretations is correct.

  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2009, 11:11:54 am »
What is a broken bottle considered in redneck circles?

A symbol of peace?

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2009, 11:19:24 am »
Really?? Try offering your average Joe from the Bronx malt vinegar with his fries and see what he has to say about that.


I'm talking about the sauce not vinegar. Thats a seperate - obviosluy UK or Euro specific - idiom Milo.
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2009, 11:26:08 am »
I'm talking about the sauce not vinegar. Thats a seperate - obviosluy UK or Euro specific - idiom Milo.

I was introduced to eating vinegar on fries by some Nuns from Louisiana!

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2009, 11:34:17 am »
I was introduced to eating vinegar on fries by some Nuns from Louisiana!

Hahaha.. well there you go then.. maybe IT IS an ameican idiom.. just not in the Bronx!
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2009, 11:53:07 am »
I never said dropping a ketchup bottle was an American idiom. I said eating ketchup with fries is an American idiom. I said dropping a glass of water (or anything really) is a stock, old-school, slapstick gag. I'm sure plenty of people around the world, including Americans, are familiar with that.

This wasn't a glass of water; and vaudeville is dead.  Most of the people who saw that image knew perfectly well what it implied. And again, there's absolutely no context in the song for the schtick you're describing.

Quote
Besides, blood splatter patterns have unique characteristics because of the consistency of blood, and the fact that it is under pressure inside the body. Splattered blood doesn't just come out looking like a blob. It typically includes directional patters. Of course now someone is sure to come up with a picture of a blood stain that looks just like the ketchup to "prove" me wrong.

I doubt anyone needs to prove anything.  Everyone here seems to get it.

Of course, it would be a bit more soothing to just let this thread devolve into an international discussion about condiments.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2009, 11:57:39 am »
What is a broken bottle considered in redneck circles?

A symbol of peace?

A broken bottle with a jagged end can be a very effective weapon in a fight, especially if you can hit your opponent in the face with it.

And then you can put the product on fries.

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2009, 12:09:20 pm »
This wasn't a glass of water; and vaudeville is dead.  Most of the people who saw that image knew perfectly well what it implied. And again, there's absolutely no context in the song for the schtick you're describing.

I doubt anyone needs to prove anything.  Everyone here seems to get it.

Of course, it would be a bit more soothing to just let this thread devolve into an international discussion about condiments.

We really should have that discussion in the condiment aisle.

 :laugh:

Offline Sason

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,234
  • Bork bork bork
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2009, 12:23:09 pm »
'Going down on' can mean to perform fellatio (or cunnilingus) on someone.

Ok. Thanks Lynne.

DĆ¼va pƶƶp is a fƶrce of natĆ¼re

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2009, 12:55:33 pm »
We really should have that discussion in the condiment aisle.

 :laugh:

"Wuht?"   ;)

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2009, 02:07:09 pm »
I woke up this morning and suddenly remembered that song.  I think journalists should press Willie Nelson to make a public statement about that song.  How could he have done it?

Online CellarDweller

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 38,403
  • A city boy's mentality, with a cowboy's soul.
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2009, 02:11:22 pm »
A broken bottle with a jagged end can be a very effective weapon in a fight, especially if you can hit your opponent in the face with it.

And then you can put the product on fries.


 :laugh:

That shit ain't right, huh?  Seemed to be ok when he was getting paid for it to be on the soundtrack.

::)

As for Kenny Chesney, gay rumors have followed him for years......especially since Renee Zwellwiger divorced him for "fraud".


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2009, 02:23:59 pm »
I could take you to some honkytonks in small town Texas ,and mostly likely you would see what
the significance of a broken bottle means.

 ;)

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2009, 02:55:33 pm »
This wasn't a glass of water; and vaudeville is dead.  Most of the people who saw that image knew perfectly well what it implied. And again, there's absolutely no context in the song for the schtick you're describing.

The glass of water was an example. The device has been used with tools, food, etc. not only on Vaudeville, but also in sitcoms, movies, etc. In the business, its called a "sight gag."

As far as context in the song, there is no context for claiming its blood either. There is not a single violent lyric in the whole song.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2009, 03:42:23 pm »
We really should have that discussion in the condiment aisle.

 :laugh:
:laugh:

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2009, 08:06:59 am »
As for the idea that Ain't Going Down on Brokeback Mountain is a misunderstood Picasso...


I have no idea what "I shaved my unicorn for this?" means.

But let's be clear here, I wasn't comparing Willie Nelson to Picasso. I was comparing the reaction people had to each artists' work.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline loneleeb3

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Posting Vacation
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *
  • Posts: 4,970
  • I swear.............
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2009, 10:03:02 pm »
Quote
kerfuffle

I love that word!! :laugh:
I should use it more often!!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2009, 11:53:13 pm »
For those who don't see threats in these lyrics:

"That shit ain't right"  --creates a mood of hate/moral condemnation against homosexuals

"Don't go reachin' for my rope" --implies a threat if an overture is made

"You can buy me a beer, then fuck off" --disrespectful and rude, as if it's OK to use a gay man for your own purposes, lead him on, then blow him off
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2009, 12:03:09 am »
For those who don't see threats in these lyrics:

"That shit ain't right"  --creates a mood of hate/moral condemnation against homosexuals

I hear: "I don't like it." A statement of his heterosexuality

"Don't go reachin' for my rope" --implies a threat if an overture is made

I hear: "keep your hands off me." A statement of his wish to avoid an unwanted advance

"You can buy me a beer, then fuck off" --disrespectful and rude, as if it's OK to use a gay man for your own purposes, lead him on, then blow him off

I hear: "let's keep it platonic." A statement that sets boundaries
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2009, 12:09:49 am »
I hear: "I don't like it." A statement of his heterosexuality

I hear: "keep your hands off me." A statement of his wish to avoid an unwanted advance

I hear: "let's keep it platonic." A statement that sets boundaries

So be it.

Being from Tennessee, knowing what broken bottles in barrooms are for, and knowing how the average yahoo is going to 'hear' these lyrics, I just don't see it the same way.

I hope your rose-colored glasses never get cloudy.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2009, 12:20:04 am »
Well, the majority of people posting on this thread see it as what it is.
Stupid ass threats against gays.  Maybe they are trying to prove something.
 ::)
We can't all be hysterical.

 ;)

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2009, 12:21:05 am »
So be it.

Being from Tennessee, knowing what broken bottles in barrooms are for, and knowing how the average yahoo is going to 'hear' these lyrics, I just don't see it the same way.

People are listening to this song in more places than just Tennessee. No doubt, different people in different places, and in different circumstances will interpret the song differently. Living in Philadelphia, I know how the average city boy is going to hear these lyrics. To them, this song will have the effect of a Saturday Night Live skit.

The idea that this song (with or without the ketchup) will incite gay-bashing is about as valid an argument as the one that goes: gangsta rap makes poor, young, black men violent.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2009, 12:28:00 am »
LMAO at the idea of people listening to Willie in NYC.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2009, 12:29:06 am »
People are listening to this song in more places than just Tennessee. No doubt, different people in different places, and in different circumstances will interpret the song differently. Living in Philadelphia, I know how the average city boy is going to hear these lyrics. To them, this song will have the effect of a Saturday Night Live skit.

The idea that this song (with or without the ketchup) will incite gay-bashing is about as valid an argument as the one that goes: gangsta rap makes poor, young, black men violent.

We're not going to agree, Milo, and we don't need to.  Remember the point of this website?

"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." - Annie Proulx

We bring our own life experiences to Brokeback Mountain, and it changed all of us in some way; otherwise, I doubt we'd still be interested in being here.  Everything we see is viewed through the lens of our own experiences.  This is just another example of that.

Let be.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2009, 12:31:14 am »
We're not going to agree, Milo, and we don't need to.  

(snip)

Let be.

Agreed.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2009, 12:48:21 am »
Well, the majority of people posting on this thread see it as what it is.

People sometimes see this kind of thing through a prism of fear as well: 'if I don't see it, it will all go away or at least not get near me.'

For those who don't see threats in these lyrics:

"That shit ain't right"  --creates a mood of hate/moral condemnation against homosexuals

"Don't go reachin' for my rope" --implies a threat if an overture is made

"You can buy me a beer, then fuck off" --disrespectful and rude, as if it's OK to use a gay man for your own purposes, lead him on, then blow him off


If homophobia was basically just a matter of rudeness, it would be easy to dismiss those lyrics, even in a context where they're sung against a backdrop of a red spatter with a ketchup label conspicuously included (to make it less likely that YouTube will pull it). But as we all know, they're not.  "He made a pass at me" is a familiar "gay panic" excuse for anything from a bloodied nose to being beaten to human hamburger.  Gay men in particular share at least one deadly racial stereotype: that of the out-of-control sexual predator; and that song plays right into that mentality.  

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2009, 12:58:56 am »
It's not cute.  It's not funny.  And the rednecks who hear this crap will take it as an endorsement of their homophobia.  

Not to mention expressing it in the way they know best.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2009, 01:02:25 am »
I'm with you, Lynn.  A lot of people seem to think that if a gay man hits on a straight man, the straight man is pretty much obligated to physically assault the gay man in order to prove his manhood.  This shitty song speaks directly to that attitude.  I have heard many men talk exactly this way back where I come from.

It's not cute.  It's not funny.  And the rednecks who hear this crap will take it as an endorsement of their homophobia.  

I believe you're right, Gary.  We're from near the same sort of places - the rural southeast.  And tell you what, things are different in downtown Boston,  San Francisco, New York, other cities....but you don't have to get very far outside of Boston before you get to say...Fall River, MA or Quincy, MA...not to give these places a bad name, but Boston-suburbs are not cosmopolitan in the same way Boston-city is.  And it's the rural people and the suburban-rural want-to-be's that provide the market for Nelson's music. 
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2009, 01:08:07 am »
I'm with you, Lynn.  A lot of people seem to think that if a gay man hits on a straight man, the straight man is pretty much obligated to physically assault the gay man in order to prove his manhood.  This shitty song speaks directly to that attitude.  I have heard many men talk exactly this way back where I come from.

I've hit on plenty of straight guys in younger days. Most recoiled. Every one of them said something to the effect of "I'm not gay." And that was it. Not a single one has ever hit me for making a pass.

This "obligation" to prove their manhood via violence against the perpetrator happens far less than people think. Its mostly the kind of stuff that guys talk smack about when they drink. I hear this stuff all the time.  Its a group fantasy of sorts. Few guys actually do it.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2009, 01:32:55 am »
And tell you what, things are different in downtown Boston

True. I had my biggest problems with racial violence in the neighborhoods outside the downtown: Southie, Dorchester, Hyde Park, and Roslindale.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2009, 02:06:48 am »
So the fuck what?  Plenty of them do fucking do it.  Some gay men are dead because of this attitude.  Many have been assaulted.  And a great many are intimidated by the attitude.  

Like I said, it is not funny.  It is not cute.

Not very many people would lynch a black man or participate in a gangrape, but if dumbass Willie Nelson should be stupid enough to sing a snappy little song about those things, I wouldn't want to hum along.

First of all, Willie's song makes fun of homophobia, it doesn't advocate it. Secondly, there are no violent lyrics in this song. "Keep your hands off me" is miles away from "I'll kick your ass." Third, I understand men. That "if one ever touched me..." kind of talk is just that...talk. Its bravado.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2009, 02:20:41 am »
First of all, Willie's song makes fun of homophobia, it doesn't advocate it. Secondly, there are no violent lyrics in this song. "Keep your hands off me" is miles away from "I'll kick your ass." Third, I understand men. That "if one ever touched me..." kind of talk is just that...talk. Its bravado.

I hear it making fun of homosexuals, where does it make fun of homophobia?

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2009, 02:22:16 am »
I hear it making fun of homosexuals, where does it make fun of homophobia?

There is a character singing this song. This character is a homophobic cowboy. That's the joke. This isn't meant to be Willie Nelson's deepest thoughts.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2009, 02:23:29 am »
There is a character singing this song. This character is a homophobic cowboy. That's the joke.

The character is indeed a homophobic cowboy.  What makes that a joke?

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2009, 02:24:39 am »
The character is indeed a homophobic cowboy.  What makes that a joke?

Willie's making fun of him.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2009, 02:26:07 am »
Willie's making fun of him.

How can you tell?

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2009, 02:27:25 am »
How can you tell?

The cartoonish instrumentation is one tip off. Its also the way I'm hearing the lyrics. They're silly.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2009, 02:30:13 am »
The cartoonish instrumentation is one tip off. Its also the way I'm hearing the lyrics. They're silly.

The instrumentation doesn't sound any more cartoonish to me than any of a dozen other songs.  What's silly about the lyrics?

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2009, 02:36:19 am »
The instrumentation doesn't sound any more cartoonish to me than any of a dozen other songs. 

Its arranged in an exaggerated style.


What's silly about the lyrics?

The double-entendres are a major comical element:

"I ain't going down"

"but don't go reaching for my rope"

"that last note sounded a bit queer"
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2009, 02:38:18 am »
This marks the first time I (English minor, mind you) have ever heard double-entendre used in reference to country music lyrics.  American Pie, i.e. folk, yes...country music, no.  It's charm is in the fact that it's not that sophisticated.

Someone should write a thesis.

"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2009, 02:41:01 am »
Its arranged in an exaggerated style.


The double-entendres are a major comical element:

"I ain't going down"

"but don't go reaching for my rope"

"that last note sounded a bit queer"


Yes, and they all make fun of homosexuals as being ridiculous and end by stating flatly, "That ain't right."

Not to mention, "you can buy me a beer and then, fuck off."  as if to say, spend your money on me, but stay the hell out of my life.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2009, 02:43:37 am »
Yes, and they all make fun of homosexuals as being ridiculous and end by stating flatly, "That ain't right."

Not to mention, "you can buy me a beer and then, fuck off."  as if to say, spend your money on me, but stay the hell out of my life.

I gave my interpretation of those lines a few pages back:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,36828.msg547857.html#msg547857
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2009, 02:45:18 am »
I gave my interpretation of those lines a few pages back:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,36828.msg547857.html#msg547857

I'm looking for your evidence that the singer is being parodied, because it sure sounds like the subject of the song is being ridiculed to me.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2009, 02:48:12 am »
I'm looking for your evidence that the singer is being parodied, because it sure sounds like the subject of the song is being ridiculed to me.

I've given you my interpretation of the piece. I'm not sure what else you're asking for.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2009, 02:53:06 am »
I've given you my interpretation of the piece. I'm not sure what else you're asking for.

It's like the interpretation of any given work, including BBM, you can view it any way you want, but the evidence for the way it is intended is contained within the work itself.

It could be argued that BBM is a warning against being gay, but the preponderance of internal evidence within the work suggests that that was not the author's intention.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2009, 02:58:51 am »
Remember the point of this website?

"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." - Annie Proulx

We bring our own life experiences to Brokeback Mountain, and it changed all of us in some way; otherwise, I doubt we'd still be interested in being here.  Everything we see is viewed through the lens of our own experiences.  This is just another example of that.

Let be.

Don't you think we've gone around in circles long enough?
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2009, 02:59:30 am »
It's like the interpretation of any given work, including BBM, you can view it any way you want, but the evidence for the way it is intended is contained within the work itself.

It could be argued that BBM is a warning against being gay, but the preponderance of internal evidence within the work suggests that that was not the author's intention.

And the problem with reaching consensus is that different people will look at various elements from different angles, glean different meanings, make different assumptions, etc., etc., etc.

I perform music that is hundreds of years old. There is not much consensus on the way a piece should be played or sung. There's not even consensus on what the composer's intent was in a given work.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2009, 03:07:13 am »
But the trouble is not everyone one is in on the joke, and I am sure that the rednecks who hear this song will take it as an endorsement of their homophobia.

I doubt it. No moreso than gangsta rap encourages black kids to go out and shoot cops.

and it keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another.  

I disagree. Straight men are indeed affectionate and open with each other. I wrote about this not long ago. If you understand the masculine vocabulary, its easy to see the affection.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,18011.msg536199.html#msg536199
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2009, 03:22:26 am »
We both know my views on your supposed authority on masculinity.  So please belt out another aria because I've heard this one before.

I've never had a problem understanding men. So I don't understand your response, considering that you wrote:

However, I should add that my sense of being different was not simply tied to my attraction.  I was softer, gentler than the other boys.  I didn't want to do the things they did.  To me so many things about them seemed unusual and strange.  I couldn't relate to them.  I didn't understand them, but from the beginning I was interested in them. 

  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline David In Indy

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,447
  • You've Got Male
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2009, 03:30:16 am »
And the problem with reaching consensus is that different people will look at various elements from different angles, glean different meanings, make different assumptions, etc., etc., etc.

I perform music that is hundreds of years old. There is not much consensus on the way a piece should be played or sung. There's not even consensus on what the composer's intent was in a given work.

That is something you and I most definately have in common, Milo! I also perform music that is hundreds of years old. Violin, cello and piano. My favorite is baroque. But anything from between 1550 - 1850 is perfectly fine with me! :)

I think the composer's intent is whatever the listener feels in his heart. That is a personal viewpoint of mine though, although I've held that viewpoint ever since I was a kid. No two people ever interpret music in the exact same way. It speaks to the soul. I think the great composers knew this. :)

This is also probably true of today's music, including that Willie Nelson song. Personally I am appalled by it. Others will not be. That doesn't make their interpretation wrong though....

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2009, 03:34:36 am »
That is something you and I most definately have in common, Milo! I perform music that is hundreds of years old. Violin, cello and piano. My favorite is baroque. But anything from between 1550 - 1850 is perfectly fine with me! :)

I think the composer's intent is whatever the listener feels in his heart. That is a personal viewpoint of mine though, although I've held that viewpoint ever since I was a kid. No two people ever interpret music in the exact same way. It speaks to the soul. I think the great composers knew this. :)

My voice is a little heavy for baroque opera...to some ears. My core repertoire has been developing in the direction of basso buffo roles from the bel canto literature: Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti. And the roles are a blast to perform!!
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2009, 04:19:24 am »
LMAO at the idea of people listening to Willie in NYC.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

It's the first place I ever heard him.  He's plenty popular there.



This marks the first time I (English minor, mind you) have ever heard double-entendre used in reference to country music lyrics.  American Pie, i.e. folk, yes...country music, no.  It's charm is in the fact that it's not that sophisticated.

Actually, I would say that word play and double entendres are pretty common in country music, not so much in folk music. 




I've never had a problem understanding men. So I don't understand your response, considering that you wrote:

Don't those two sentences contradict each other, considering Gary is a man?



Offline David In Indy

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,447
  • You've Got Male
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2009, 05:06:50 am »
My voice is a little heavy for baroque opera...to some ears. My core repertoire has been developing in the direction of basso buffo roles from the bel canto literature: Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti. And the roles are a blast to perform!!

I'll bet they are! :D

I wish I could sing. But I can't. I sound like an old bullfrog. So I let my instruments sing for me...

I sure do wish I could though!
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2009, 08:04:01 am »
I hear it making fun of homosexuals, where does it make fun of homophobia?

"It's a spoof" is an old dodge.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2009, 09:00:00 am »
We're all people.  We all have intelligence.  We all have observational skills.  We all know men.  And we all share our common humanity. 

Part of that sharing is understanding that we come to the topic from different angles. Women understand men from a different angle, and with a different kind of understanding than do other men. We see this played out over and over again in music, literature, and the media in general. There have been a gazillion popular magazine articles titled along the lines of "What He Really Wants" or "What She Really Wants." Its commonly understood that men and women lack the insider's view of each other.

So when I explain the affection that I see between two guys who, for example, greet each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back, I'm doing so from an insider's perspective. When someone from the outside tells me that men aren't affectionate, I wonder why I see it, but they don't.

I can enjoy watching a game of cricket, even though I have no clue what is going on in the field.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2009, 09:11:01 am »
As for this "it's all talk" bullshit, I would like to point out that obviously it is not always "all talk."

I never said "always."

A co-worker and I were talking about barbershops. I was explaining to him how barbershops in black communities serve as focal points for the men and the boys in the neighborhood. I told him how one barber I used to frequent had chess tables set up for the boys who came by to hang out after school. He began to tell me about the racist talk that goes on in barbershops in white neighborhoods. I told him it was no surprise, because black men do the same thing.

Now, considering the unusually high number of threats, assaults, and deaths of blacks at the hands of whites, I could draw the conclusion that white barbershops are dangerous places, and that the talk that goes on there spills out into action in the streets. Or I could draw the conclusion that most men talk smack, and the white guys who are going to go out and beat up "niggers" are a fractional minority who were already into that kind of behavior before they went in for a haircut.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2009, 09:24:43 am »
If you think I said that men don't show affection, then you misunderstood me.

Its not about what I think, its about what you said:

You can dismiss all the hateful, homophobic talk that some men engage in as bravado, but it does have an effect on gay men and straight men alike.  It keeps them in a box.  It keeps gay men in the closet, and it keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another.  And from where I come from "that shit ain't right" is not very far away from a threat of violence.  

Obviously a woman can have profound insight into being a man.  We're all gathered together on this board because of two male characters that a woman created.

Certainly. But not every woman has that level of understanding. Nor do most men have that level of understanding of women. Its very difficult to reach a level of intrinsic understanding when you don't know what its like to be one of "them."
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2009, 09:36:21 am »
It's the "talking smack" that gives licence to those who cross the line.  

I disagree. For the most part, men understand that the line should not be crossed. They know that it might be OK to feel "that way" about gays or blacks, but its not OK to go out and mistreat them. The ones that do become subject to broader, overarching rules. That's why most guys don't put those words into action.

And the homophobic talk is a form of social control even if the threshold of violence isn't reached.  Even that racist talk is a form of social control.  It's an attempt to get those who hear it to tow the line.  I know from experience that you pay a social price for resisting both of these pressures.

I know that I used to catch flak from the black kids in high school for having white friends. Whites were supposed to be the enemy. I learned about the social cost of bucking "the rules," and I decided that what I got out of my relationships with white kids was more important the scorn I got from the black kids. So I just kept doing what I wanted to do.

Peer pressure is not an insurmountable obstacle.

Getting back to "talking smack," guys don't do it to control their peers as much as they do it to blow off steam. And like so many other things that men do, blowing off steam often contains an element of aggression. So talking smack is often crude and abrasive, and can appear threatening to an outsider.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2009, 10:01:55 am »
And what I meant was that men are restrained in their affection for one another out of fear of being perceived as gay.

What is it you think they are restraining? What is being held back?

And just because you're a man does not make you particularly insightful about anything, even in regards to what it's like being a man.  Some people are just dim and unobservant. 

I don't understand how you can dismiss the intrinsic understanding of someone who sits in the group. Yes, there may be elements that are best observed from outside the group, but that doesn't negate what the group members know about themselves. All the opera critic knows is what he sees on the stage. He has no idea what's going on in the pit, or backstage. 
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,758
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2009, 10:35:51 am »
What is it you think they are restraining? What is being held back?

I don't understand how you can dismiss the intrinsic understanding of someone who sits in the group. Yes, there may be elements that are best observed from outside the group, but that doesn't negate what the group members know about themselves. All the opera critic knows is what he sees on the stage. He has no idea what's going on in the pit, or backstage. 

This post is funny, because it contains its own internal contradictions. That is, perhaps you don't understand what straight men might be holding back because you don't sit in their group.

I agree that being a group member gives one special insight into other members' behavior. But your group distinctions are simplistic. We aren't just either men or women, black or white, opera singers or critics. We all belong to lots of groups. Depending on the situation, I might have much more in common with -- and better insight into the behavior of -- a gay black man with whom I share geography, class, personality, profession or other characteristics than I do with a straight white woman with whom I have less in common.

Which shared characteristics are most important in determining mutual understanding in any given situation varies, depending on the individuals and the circumstances.




Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2009, 10:36:44 am »
"It's a spoof" is an old dodge.

It is the quintessential male dodge.  OK, so I broke your arm and blacked your eyes and knocked out three teeth, It don't mean nothin', we was just funnin'.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2009, 10:48:41 am »
Part of that sharing is understanding that we come to the topic from different angles. Women understand men from a different angle, and with a different kind of understanding than do other men. We see this played out over and over again in music, literature, and the media in general. There have been a gazillion popular magazine articles titled along the lines of "What He Really Wants" or "What She Really Wants." Its commonly understood that men and women lack the insider's view of each other.

So when I explain the affection that I see between two guys who, for example, greet each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back, I'm doing so from an insider's perspective. When someone from the outside tells me that men aren't affectionate, I wonder why I see it, but they don't.

I can enjoy watching a game of cricket, even though I have no clue what is going on in the field.

Thirty years ago, two guys greeting each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back was looked on with suspicion.  It's only come back into style since the restrictions on homosexuality have relaxed.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2009, 10:49:36 am »
Clarissa, I'd love it if you could provide an example. I've exhausted most of my knowledge and find symbolism and metaphor but not double entendre. Admittedly, I don't listen to new country.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2009, 10:55:06 am »
I bet if anyone heard Willie Nelson in NYC, it was at the Hill Country BBQ.

 ;)

This whole topic has morphed into "what a man is" ..... again.

Why does every thread that a certain person comes on turn into this?
 :-\


Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,758
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2009, 12:17:03 pm »
LMAO at the idea of people listening to Willie in NYC.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I bet if anyone heard Willie Nelson in NYC, it was at the Hill Country BBQ.

Living in Texas and thinking that people in NYC don't listen to Willie Nelson is almost like me thinking that people in NYC (or Texas) don't listen to Bob Dylan or Prince.



Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2009, 12:41:19 pm »
As for this "it's all talk" bullshit, I would like to point out that obviously it is not always "all talk."  Gay men are threatened.  They are assaulted.  Some of them have even been killed.  

And it's not just "manly" fun and games either.  It's a form of social control.  

Arguably it's a form of terrorism. And as we all know, there's no shortage of rationalizations for that.

Terrorist and homophobes, of course, understand it from 'different angles.'  ::)

Interesting, the assumption that a non-androphile gay man wouldn't have any insight about how men think.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2009, 12:44:23 pm »
I bet if anyone heard Willie Nelson in NYC, it was at the Hill Country BBQ.

 ;)

This whole topic has morphed into "what a man is" ..... again.

Why does every thread that a certain person comes on turn into this?

Look at the threads and you'll figure it out. 

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #114 on: November 10, 2009, 12:53:45 pm »
Look at the threads and you'll figure it out. 

Well, isn't there already blog where those can discuss what a "man" is?


Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #115 on: November 10, 2009, 12:55:17 pm »
Living in Texas and thinking that people in NYC don't listen to Willie Nelson is almost like me thinking that people in NYC (or Texas) don't listen to Bob Dylan or Prince.




They don't !!!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #116 on: November 10, 2009, 01:40:47 pm »
Interesting, the assumption that a non-androphile gay man wouldn't have any insight about how men think.

I didn't say that non-androphile gay men have NO insight. I didn't say that women have NO insight. I simply say that their perspectives are coming from a different angle.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #117 on: November 10, 2009, 01:45:33 pm »
Which shared characteristics are most important in determining mutual understanding in any given situation varies, depending on the individuals and the circumstances.

I do understand the overlapping communities of interest. And you are correct, one's mutual understanding is dependent on the circumstances and how those communities overlap. I guess the question is: how does that apply to interpreting how men express emotions? Or in this case, how will Willie's song be interpreted by various kinds of men?
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #118 on: November 10, 2009, 02:08:53 pm »
Look at the threads and you'll figure it out.  

The reaction of "rednecks," "yahoos," and other likely gay-bashers to this song led to a discussion about how men in different parts of the country might interpret the lyrics. That in led to a turn in the direction of how straight men react to the advances of homosexual men. Which led to bravado and men "talking smak." Which led to Gary's assertion that homophobia "keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another." Which led to my assertion that men are indeed affectionate and open with one another. Which led to Gary questioning my understanding of men. Which led to where we are now.

Did I skip a step?
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #119 on: November 10, 2009, 02:26:50 pm »

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2009, 02:37:54 pm »
Yep.

I'm not sure which step I missed, but anyone can read back a few pages and find out.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2009, 02:52:28 pm »
Thirty years ago, two guys greeting each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back was looked on with suspicion.  It's only come back into style since the restrictions on homosexuality have relaxed.

Thirty years ago, the only guys the hug-n-thump thing were bruthas in da 'hood. Gangs also had special handshakes/embraces that signified membership. I would theorize that it slowly seeped out into the general population along with other elements of hip-hop culture.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #122 on: November 10, 2009, 03:03:16 pm »
The reaction of "rednecks," "yahoos," and other likely gay-bashers to this song led to a discussion about how men in different parts of the country might interpret the lyrics. That in led to a turn in the direction of how straight men react to the advances of homosexual men. Which led to bravado and men "talking smak." Which led to Gary's assertion that homophobia "keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another." Which led to my assertion that men are indeed affectionate and open with one another. Which led to Gary questioning my understanding of men. Which led to where we are now.

Did I skip a step?

I can count the straight men I know who are openly affectionate with other men besides family members on one hand and have fingers left over.  I'm sure the response to this is that being a female, I am not attuned to the nuances of male affection, so I'll save you the trouble.  I believe I am.  I have both father and brother and have spent 41 years observing how they interact with each other and with outsiders.
"LaƟ sein. LaƟ sein."

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #123 on: November 10, 2009, 03:23:50 pm »
Thirty years ago, the only guys the hug-n-thump thing were bruthas in da 'hood. Gangs also had special handshakes/embraces that signified membership. I would theorize that it slowly seeped out into the general population along with other elements of hip-hop culture.

When I was young, it specifically was not done, unless the person was a blood relative.  There was no secret why it was frowned upon.

My experience suggests hip-hop has little or nothing to do with it, because the people involved have no contact with, nor interest in, hip-hop.

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #124 on: November 10, 2009, 03:32:43 pm »
The cartoonish instrumentation is one tip off. Its also the way I'm hearing the lyrics. They're silly.

As a fellow musician, I certainly dont see it as being a cartoonist intrumentation.
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #125 on: November 10, 2009, 04:09:59 pm »
My experience suggests hip-hop has little or nothing to do with it, because the people involved have no contact with, nor interest in, hip-hop.

Interesting thing about how cultural elements seep in...you don't have to be part of the culture--or even interested in it--to assimilate the elements. Suburban kids are wearing hip-hop-inspired fashions even though they might not listen to hip-hop music. There are tons of young people out there who have never broken the law, yet they sport prison-style tattoos. The "fist-bump" is another example of an element that has seeped out of hip-hop. There's no telling which element will become popular, and which ones won't.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #126 on: November 10, 2009, 04:13:15 pm »
As a fellow musician, I certainly dont see it as being a cartoonist intrumentation.

Maybe I've been listening to too much Rossini.

 :)
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2009, 04:18:19 pm »
Interesting thing about how cultural elements seep in...you don't have to be part of the culture--or even interested in it--to assimilate the elements. Suburban kids are wearing hip-hop-inspired fashions even though they might not listen to hip-hop music. There are tons of young people out there who have never broken the law, yet they sport prison-style tattoos. The "fist-bump" is another example of an element that has seeped out of hip-hop. There's no telling which element will become popular, and which ones won't.

The people I'm talking about aren't any where near that age group.

I think you are giving hip-hop as exaggerated an influence as some people give gay culture.

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2009, 04:22:15 pm »
Oh, I think old Willie is just looking for some media attention.
He doesn't play the big concert venues anymore.

He doesn't draw them in like he did in his early days.


Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2009, 04:32:24 pm »
Oh, I think old Willie is just looking for some media attention.
He doesn't play the big concert venues anymore.

He doesn't draw them in like he did in his early days.



I was wondering if this particular song was a financial move to placate former fans he might have alienated with BBM.  I don't know his demographics with regard to homophobic vs homosexual and which group generates him the most revenue, but I'd guess it ain't us.

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2009, 04:36:39 pm »
I was wondering if this particular song was a financial move to placate former fans he might have alienated with BBM.  I don't know his demographics with regard to homophobic vs homosexual and which group generates him the most revenue, but I'd guess it ain't us.

He was a big hit at the Armadillo Headquaters here in Austin in the 70's.
It was where his career finally took off.

He was popular with the young hippie, weed smoking crowd.

I went to one of his concerts there back then, and got high just smelling everyones weed.
 :laugh:

His fans are good old boys, and old hippies.

He lives around here, so he is known around Austin, but you ask a teenages who Willie Nelson is , and they will look at you like.... huh... who?

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #131 on: November 10, 2009, 04:41:48 pm »
Pass the brownies, Alice.  Boy these brownies are good!

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #132 on: November 10, 2009, 05:06:30 pm »
Pass the brownies, Alice.  Boy these brownies are good!

LMAO !!!

Old Willie still likes his weed.  He was pulled over by DPS a few years back around here and
was caught with his little stash.

 :laugh:


Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #133 on: November 10, 2009, 05:11:18 pm »
The people I'm talking about aren't any where near that age group.

I think you are giving hip-hop as exaggerated an influence as some people give gay culture.

You're right. Unless we're talking about Gen-X or Y, there isn't much hip-hop influence.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #134 on: November 11, 2009, 08:04:07 am »
From TDS, July 25, 2009:

There doesn't seem to be a Willie Nelson version of "Ain't Goin' Down on Brokeback Mountain" (Written by Wynn Varble, Ben Hayslip and Brandon Kinney) available on Youtube, but here it is sung by the The Saddle Sores.

Or listen to a live version, complete with difficult-to-decipher commentary by Wynn Varble: "It's been described as number two... Hope I don't piss nobody off, it's all in fun. A little cowboy music."



[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRCe4OpehbE[/youtube]

Like I said at first, this is just a joke.

If the violently homophobic message was universally obvious, I would have expected that there would have been quite a bit of outrage expressed over at DCF when this was posted. I couldn't find any.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2009, 08:11:15 am »
Clarissa, I'd love it if you could provide an example. I've exhausted most of my knowledge and find symbolism and metaphor but not double entendre. Admittedly, I don't listen to new country.


I Googled "word play in country music" and found this.  It describes pretty well what I mean, and focuses in particular on George Jones, who I think is the guy who sang "I Was Country When Country Wasn't Cool," so I'm thinking he's not new country.  I don't listen to country often, but when I do, I frequently notice - and enjoy - what this writer describes.

It also mentions Randy Travis, and it seems like the songs of his I've heard have word play in them, like "A Better Class of Losers."  "On the Other Hand" is a perfect example:  "On one hand I could stay and be your loving man/But the reason I must go is on the other hand," (meaning literally on that hand he wears a wedding ring).

(The bolding in the article that follows was made by me.)

http://aloxecorton.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/wordplay-in-the-country-for-amelie/

"Pop singers like the Beatles and Elvis Costello may have visited wordplay from time to time, but country music lives there. A lot of it involves outright puns, like the Bellamy Brothersā€™ ā€œIf I Said You Had a Beautiful Body Would You Hold It Against Me?ā€ or Lee Ann Womackā€™s ā€œAm I the Only Thing That Youā€™ve Done Wrong?ā€ Thereā€™s Gary Nicholsonā€™s ā€œBehind Bars,ā€ which is about saloons, and Randy Travisā€™s ā€œOn The Other Hand,ā€ which is about wedding rings. And then there are all those titles that involve wordplay of one sort or another, like Dolly Partonā€™s ā€œItā€™s All Wrong, but Itā€™s All Right,ā€ and Johnny Paycheckā€™s ā€œIā€™m the Only Hell My Mama Ever Raised.ā€

When I think of songs like these, the singer who comes first to mind is George Jones. I donā€™t know of heā€™s done more of them than anybody else ā€” the honors there probably go to Roger Miller or Johnny Paycheck. And a lot of the punning titles that Jones uses are just routine joke songs, like the recent ā€œI Had More Silver Bullets Last Night Than the Lone Rangerā€ or ā€œShe Took My Keys Away, and Now She Wonā€™t Drive me To Drink.ā€ But Jones has also made a specialty of using puns and wordplay in the plaintive ballads that he sings like no one else ā€” ā€œA man can be a drunk sometimes but a drunk canā€™t be a man,ā€ ā€œAt least Iā€™ve learned to stand on my own two knees,ā€ or ā€œWith these hundred proof memories, you canā€™t think and drive.ā€

For some people of course, this sort of punning just confirms a sense of country music as a linguistic trailer park. Since Tennysonā€™s time, punning has been deprecated as the basest form of humor, to the point where itā€™s often regarded as a kind of veiled aggressiveness (ā€¦) Itā€™s a fitting device for these ballads, particularly when theyā€™re tackling their favorite theme ā€” the fragility of happiness, love, and family. Thereā€™s a joke that sums up the genre very nicely: ā€œWhat do you get if you play a country song backwards?ā€ ā€” ā€œYou get your wife back, you get your dog back, you get your truck backā€¦ā€

Taken from ā€˜The way we talk nowā€™ by Geoffrey Nunberg (Houghton Mifflin, 2001)


Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #136 on: November 11, 2009, 08:40:22 am »
If the violently homophobic message was universally obvious, I would have expected that there would have been quite a bit of outrage expressed over at DCF when this was posted. I couldn't find any.

Correction: I found 2 negative posts.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #137 on: November 11, 2009, 11:16:48 am »
The people I'm talking about aren't any where near that age group.

I think you are giving hip-hop as exaggerated an influence as some people give gay culture.

And it should be unnecessary to point out that this isn't a discussion about hip-hop.

As if the discussion getting diverted into yet another snarkorama about 'androphiles' wasn't bad enough.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #138 on: November 11, 2009, 11:21:48 am »
ā€œWhat do you get if you play a country song backwards?ā€ ā€” ā€œYou get your wife back, you get your dog back, you get your truck backā€¦ā€

That phrase doesn't say nothin' about Mama. Or trains. Or bein' drunk. Or prison.

"I was drunk the day my Mama got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get there in my pickup truck,
She got run over by a damned ol' train
."

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #139 on: November 11, 2009, 11:31:59 am »
And it should be unnecessary to point out that this isn't a discussion about hip-hop.

As if the discussion getting diverted into yet another snarkorama about 'androphiles' wasn't bad enough.

Hip-hop was used as an example. And I didn't bring up androphilia, someone else did.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #140 on: November 11, 2009, 12:01:08 pm »
And it should be unnecessary to point out that this isn't a discussion about hip-hop.

As if the discussion getting diverted into yet another snarkorama about 'androphiles' wasn't bad enough.

Again? Jesus H. ...

 ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #141 on: November 11, 2009, 12:36:59 pm »
Again? Jesus H. ...

 ;)

Marge was the one that posted about it this time:

Interesting, the assumption that a non-androphile gay man wouldn't have any insight about how men think.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #142 on: November 11, 2009, 12:41:20 pm »
"Ain't goin down on Brokeback Mountain" is full of typical country wordplay.

The question is: who's it making fun of?  The words directly ridicule homosexuals and end with an admonishment that "that ain't right."

So it jokingly reinforces homophobia.

I've heard claims that it makes fun of homophobia, but I've been presented with no evidence for that beyond wishful thinking.

Anybody who's been a redneck knows that saying something in a joking manner is often used as a safe way of telling the truth, because it can always be followed by an, "I was just joshin" disclaimer.  With this song, we don't even get that.


Offline LauraGigs

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,447
    • My Design Portfolio
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2009, 02:30:59 pm »
I was wondering if this particular song was a financial move to placate former fans he might have alienated with BBM...
Oh, I think old Willie is just looking for some media attention. He doesn't play the big concert venues anymore. He doesn't draw them in like he did in his early days.


Totally.  He didn't even write the tune.  It completely lacks the artistry of any of his real songs (the tune itself, and the shitty production by Chesney).

It does smack of classic backpedaling.  But "Cowboys are Frequently Secretly Fond of Each Other" is also on the Lost Highway CD, which is interesting.  You'd think that he would have left that track off, if he's a complete homophobe.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2009, 02:56:19 pm »
You'd think that he would have left that track off, if he's a complete homophobe.

Right. Which tells me that he had no intentions of homophobia with "Ain't Goin' Down."
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #145 on: November 11, 2009, 03:27:38 pm »

Totally.  He didn't even write the tune.  It completely lacks the artistry of any of his real songs (the tune itself, and the shitty production by Chesney).

It does smack of classic backpedaling.  But "Cowboys are Frequently Secretly Fond of Each Other" is also on the Lost Highway CD, which is interesting.  You'd think that he would have left that track off, if he's a complete homophobe.


I think he's trying to play both sides of the fence, which tells me we don't know what he really believes.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #146 on: November 11, 2009, 03:32:17 pm »
Anybody who's been a redneck knows that saying something in a joking manner is often used as a safe way of telling the truth, because it can always be followed by an, "I was just joshin" disclaimer.  With this song, we don't even get that.

Heh. Friend, that tactic ain't just limited to rednecks.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #147 on: November 11, 2009, 03:35:13 pm »
Heh. Friend, that tactic ain't just limited to rednecks.

Very true, but that's where I learned it!

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #148 on: November 11, 2009, 05:11:25 pm »
And besides, I'm not much interested in the intent of those who sing the song.  I don't like it because I know what the homophobes will take from it if they should happen to hear it.  And I know that Willie Nelson knows how the homophobes will take it.

Following that logic, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, the Wayans brothers, and every other black comedian should just find new careers because they're giving ammunition to racists.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2009, 05:13:56 pm »
Heh. Friend, that tactic ain't just limited to rednecks.

love your new avatar, Jeff!
 Yes, letĀ“s look (stare) at Jack for a while.



Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2009, 05:14:53 pm »
and about this dicussion. If the song is a joke, then what exactly is the joke?

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2009, 05:18:35 pm »
Following that logic, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, the Wayans brothers, and every other black comedian should just find new careers because they're giving ammunition to racists.

Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, and the Wayans brothers don't pretend they're not making fun of what they're making fun of.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2009, 05:20:48 pm »
love your new avatar, Jeff!
 Yes, letĀ“s look (stare) at Jack for a while.

 ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2009, 05:21:57 pm »
Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, and the Wayans brothers don't pretend they're not making fun of what they're making fun of.

Neither is Varble.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2009, 05:23:34 pm »
Neither is Varble.

He is if he claims it's not making fun of homosexuals, rather it's making fun of homophobia.

retropian

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2009, 06:31:19 pm »
I was never a fan of W.N., but did kinda like him for his seemingly easygoing attitude over the years. It's a real shame he so thoughtlessly offended his gay fans with this song. It saddens me because everybody looses; he looses a growing fan base (and gay fans tend to be a loyal and supportive bunch), and his gay fans loose him. Just goes to show ya how homophobia is a double edged sword and cuts both ways. :-\

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,758
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #156 on: November 11, 2009, 07:26:31 pm »
Following that logic, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, the Wayans brothers, and every other black comedian should just find new careers because they're giving ammunition to racists.

Following that logic, Willie Nelson is gay.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,186
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #157 on: November 11, 2009, 09:33:08 pm »
Following that logic, Willie Nelson is gay.

Have we been missing the signs all these years? Maybe the bandanna and the ponytail were clues. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2009, 02:46:42 am »
Have we been missing the signs all these years? Maybe the bandanna and the ponytail were clues. ...
:laugh:

Offline David In Indy

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,447
  • You've Got Male
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #159 on: November 12, 2009, 04:15:05 am »
I was never a fan of W.N., but did kinda like him for his seemingly easygoing attitude over the years. It's a real shame he so thoughtlessly offended his gay fans with this song. It saddens me because everybody looses; he looses a growing fan base (and gay fans tend to be a loyal and supportive bunch), and his gay fans loose him. Just goes to show ya how homophobia is a double edged sword and cuts both ways. :-\

And it is the gay fans that tend to have the most money. Sorry, but that is a stereotype that happens to be true much of the time. And not only that, but gay people tend to throw money at their icons. Just look at Bette Midler, Cher, Madonna, Janet Jackson, hell, even Kathy Griffin. They wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for their gay fans. We support our icons.

Trust me, he will be feeling the financial pain from this atrocious blunder of his...
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2009, 12:26:30 pm »
Have we been missing the signs all these years? Maybe the bandanna and the ponytail were clues. ...

Maybe the song "Cowboys are Secretly Frequently Fond of Each Other" was a teensy clue.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2009, 12:34:06 pm »
Maybe the song "Cowboys are Secretly Frequently Fond of Each Other" was a teensy clue.

 ;D

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2009, 02:36:39 pm »
Maybe the song "Cowboys are Secretly Frequently Fond of Each Other" was a teensy clue.

I wrote an email to Willie NelsonĀ“s website and the reply I received was:

"You should check out "Cowboys Are Frequently Secretly Fond of Each Other" from Itunes."

Offline loneleeb3

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Posting Vacation
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *
  • Posts: 4,970
  • I swear.............
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2009, 05:06:30 pm »

Totally.  He didn't even write the tune.  It completely lacks the artistry of any of his real songs (the tune itself, and the shitty production by Chesney).



I love you Laura!
You don't say much but you sure get your point across!!
I am truly laughing out loud at this one!! :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline LauraGigs

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,447
    • My Design Portfolio
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2009, 05:17:17 pm »
 ;)   :-*

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2009, 05:32:45 pm »
And it is the gay fans that tend to have the most money. Sorry, but that is a stereotype that happens to be true much of the time.

Its a matter of sexual minorities--who are more likely to be child-less--having a higher percentage of expendable income. We really don't make more money. And its not a stereotype, its a consumer trend.

Trust me, he will be feeling the financial pain from this atrocious blunder of his...

He won't feel anything unless he already has a significant portion of sexual minorities among his customer base, AND a significant portion of them are offended enough to stop buying his music. Of course we have no idea what those numbers look like.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline bailey1205

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2009, 06:59:40 pm »
And it is the gay fans that tend to have the most money. Sorry, but that is a stereotype that happens to be true much of the time. And not only that, but gay people tend to throw money at their icons. Just look at Bette Midler, Cher, Madonna, Janet Jackson, hell, even Kathy Griffin. They wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for their gay fans. We support our icons.

Trust me, he will be feeling the financial pain from this atrocious blunder of his...

David, Old Willie hasn't been on the top 10 list in AGES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He has had financial difficulties for ages.






Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #167 on: November 13, 2009, 06:03:28 am »
I'd like to suggest that one of the good writers here put this on Willie Nelson's Wikipedia page.  There's no mention of it there.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #168 on: November 13, 2009, 12:36:58 pm »
and about this dicussion. If the song is a joke, then what exactly is the joke?

I guess one could make a case for considering it a joke on people who don't know homophobia when it's as plain as the nose on Dick Chaney's face.    :P

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • No crybabies
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #169 on: November 13, 2009, 03:26:04 pm »
I guess one could make a case for considering it a joke on people who don't know homophobia when it's as plain as the nose on Dick Chaney's face.    :P

Or it could be a joke on those in the gay community who take themselves too seriously.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Clyde-B

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,769
  • Clyde-B when he was Jack and Ennis's age
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #170 on: November 13, 2009, 03:44:19 pm »
Or it could be a joke on those in the gay community who take themselves too seriously.

Not sure how you decide what's too seriously and what's not.

It would help if the song's punch line were actually funny.  "It ain't right" is pretty lame.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #171 on: November 13, 2009, 04:32:20 pm »
I'd like to suggest that one of the good writers here put this on Willie Nelson's Wikipedia page.  There's no mention of it there.
very good idea

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #172 on: November 26, 2009, 03:22:36 pm »
Well, here ya'all go..  :-\  :(



[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV1i76S4dW0[/youtube]

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #173 on: November 26, 2009, 04:10:36 pm »
grrrr....
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #174 on: November 27, 2009, 12:44:10 pm »
Unlike.

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #175 on: November 27, 2009, 01:06:31 pm »
Unlike.

 :D

Sometimes i wish they had a dislike button on Facebook!
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline Katie77

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,998
  • Love is a force of Nature
Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2010, 05:34:04 pm »



When I first started reading this thread, I stopped listening to the original song as soon as I heard "that shit aint right".....

Now Ive read through all the posts here, (including all the way "off topic" ones), and now Ive just listened to Willie Nelson's version.

For what its worth I do not think the song is homophobic, but the more I listen to it, I think when Willie is referring to "that shit aint right", I think he is saying....all cow herders and sheep herders dont do what was done on Brokeback Mountain...I think when he says "that shit aint RIGHT"...I think he means "that story is not CORRECT about all herders"......(and not meaning it is WRONG)....

The saving grace in the song is "what you do is your own business".

It would be assumed that a lot of cowboys who do herding and ranching would probably have been the butt of a lot of jokes since Brokeback Mountain, and I think the song is a rebuff to all those sniggers and misconceptions, by telling us that cowboy work is dirty and dusty, long hours from dusk till dawn, it is not representing the majority of  cowboys CORRECTLY in Brokeback Mountain, hence the phrase "that shit aint right".

Just by using the "what you do is your own business" takes the homophobia away from the song, even the "then fuck off" is saying, I dont care what you do, its your business, but Im not interested.

As far as the ketchup bottle on the original song....well, that has nothing to do with Willie Nelson.



Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection