Love vs. Lust (split off from Things that make you go 'hunh?')

[Jeff Wrangler]

This topic was split off from the 5/09 TOTW, because it became a substantial discussion that deserves its own space.

–LauraGigs

Excellent point about Ennis having his eyes closed, Jeff - if his eyes are closed than it's not really "face to face" and all the symbolism that entails.

Yes, exactly. If Ennis has his eyes closed while he's making love with Jack, it's like he's not really acknowledging that it's Jack he's making love with, just as the story says that at the time of the dozy embrace, he couldn't really acknowledge that it was Jack he held.

[LauraGigs]

You know, I've always had a problem with that line in the SS.  How can you make love with a man all summer — with his strong limbs, firm hairy chest, whiskers and man-smell — and still stay in some kind of denial about doing so? 

"Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises..."

Then:
"Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."

I mean, wtf?

[Kerry]

You know, I've always had a problem with that line in the SS.  How can you make love with a man all summer — with his strong limbs, firm hairy chest, whiskers and man-smell — and still stay in some kind of denial about doing so? 

I met a guy back in 1995. We hit it off right away. Alas, he lives a straight lifestyle in a small country town up the coast, a seven-hour drive away from where I live in Sydney. In order for us to see each other, I have to make that long drive (sound familiar?). He rarely visits the city because he doesn't like the city, thinks the air is dirty (it is) and all the drivers are crazy (they are). He visited me just a couple of weeks ago. It was great seeing him, particularly because the last time we saw each other was 12 months previously. Even though he is now slightly more animated and contributory sexually than he was back in 1995 (when he'd just lie there and let me do all the work - not that I'm complaining!), he still, to this day, never talks about our sexual experience, nor concede that we've been doing "it" for over 14 years now. He is very Ennis-like in so many ways.

Some people seem to have no problem compartmentalizing their experiences and emotions. I would venture to say that many gay men have had sex with a man at some time in their lives who did not look at them, did not touch them, and kept their head turned away during the entire proceedings. Such men seem to think that if they don't actually touch the man who's pleasuring them (i.e., giving them a BJ), they haven't really had sex with a man. It wouldn't work for me - horses for courses, I guess.

[serious crayons]

Thank you for that explanation, Kerry. I've always had trouble with that line, too. I've thought of it as practically a "mistake" in the story. But with your help, it now makes more sense.

[Jeff Wrangler]

You know, I've always had a problem with that line in the SS.  How can you make love with a man all summer — with his strong limbs, firm hairy chest, whiskers and man-smell — and still stay in some kind of denial about doing so? 

"Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises..."

Then:
"Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."

I mean, wtf?

Trust a gay man who came out in his late 20s. It's not nearly as difficult as it seems. I'm never surprised at the human capacity for self-deception and denial. Forgive me if I'm sharing too much, but I was jerking off to gay porn for years before I acknowledged to myself that I'm gay.

Plus, in Ennis' case, I've always understood from the story that he was the "active" partner in their sex. Fucking is something that a man does. It's not making love--which I think is what we see in the second tent scene in the film--it's just fucking. Plus, consider AP's description, all that "laughing and snorting" and so forth. That's not making love. That's just two horny 19-year-olds rutting.

Maybe it's easier for men--gay or straight--to "compartmentalize" a difference between "having sex" and "making love"? Think of straight guys with prostitutes; no one "makes love" to a prostitute. They just "have sex" with them.

[serious crayons]

Forgive me if I'm sharing too much, but I was jerking off to gay porn for years before I acknowledged to myself that I'm gay.

I'll forgive you for sharing, if you forgive me for prying. What was going through your mind? Can you be any more specific about what you thought about your own sexuality? What did you call it, if not gay? I'm sorry, I know it's absolutely none of my business, but now that you've brought it up I do find it interesting.

Maybe it's easier for men--gay or straight--to "compartmentalize" a difference between "having sex" and "making love"?

Yes, I think this is definitely true. I think men have no problem having sex with just about anyone. Whereas women tend (not always, but often) either to feel more emotionally involved in the first place, or to feel that way afterward. Evolutionarily, of course, this makes sense.

[Mandy21]

Yes, Jeff, I respect your opinion and the things you've had to say here, but your statement above kind of shocked me.  Is there something going on in your life right now that would cause you say such bitter things?  It's kind of scary.  Did you just break up with someone or something like that?  I think more highly of men, both straight and gay, than the way you're describing them to be.  I hope you're okay?

[LauraGigs]

I would venture to say that many gay men have had sex with a man at some time in their lives who did not look at them, did not touch them, and kept their head turned away during the entire proceedings.

Man.  That's really crappy!   

[LauraGigs]

Plus, in Ennis' case, I've always understood from the story that he was the "active" partner in their sex. Fucking is something that a man does. It's not making love--which I think is what we see in the second tent scene in the film--it's just fucking. Plus, consider AP's description, all that "laughing and snorting" and so forth. That's not making love. That's just two horny 19-year-olds rutting.

That doesn't seem bitter to me.  I think I understand where you're coming from here, Jeff.  I appreciate you and Kerry's candor and all.  When I asked "How can you make love with a man all summer..." I didn't necessarily mean all hearts-and-flowers; I basically meant fuck, LOL.

Actually these answers clarify that whole thing for me a great deal!  It makes sense: Ennis can rationalize being fuck-buddies with Jack while together on Brokeback because after all, they're alone, horny, etc.  No girls around, just a one-shot deal until the job ends and all.  But the dozy embrace is something different: "a shared and sexless hunger" wherein Ennis is being more vulnerable even — because it's about affection and comfort, not just getting off.

And of course Jack, though quite sad, coped with their job's sudden end better than Ennis, because he hadn't been denying the core truth of their relationship to himself.

[Ellemeno]

Re the strand being discussed -

This is the opposite of a thing that made me go "hunh?"  -  In the flashback, when Ennis comes up behind Jack and only snuggles his lapel, I think it's very poignant.  It's so intimate, but only Jack's coat, and not Jack himself, gets to feel it.