That zany Uncle Harold

[serious crayons]

What is up with Uncle Harold? He's a phantom character we hear about but never see (along with Roy Taylor, Don Wroe, Steve, Kurt, Troy and Ennis' mother -- only Uncle Harold is far more conspicuous and seemingly significant)? Why would the movie introduce a character, put him in dire jeopardy, then save his life -- all completely offscreen and with little or no connection to the plot?

The news about Uncle Harold's pneumonia is ostensibly what gets Aguirre up the mountain and in a position to spy on Jack and Ennis. But it also seems kind of pointless. Aguirre could have been given any number of other routine reasons for stopping by; he could even just be checking on things. Uncle Harold's illness does not propel any action -- Aguirre rather indifferently makes the announcement, Jack rather indifferently replies that he can't do anything about it, Aguirre agrees, and that's the end of that.

By the time they break camp, we viewers have pretty much forgotten about Uncle Harold. Yet, as if we'd been waiting in suspense, Jack feels compelled to mention him again and reassure us that he's OK. He says it quickly, as if it's only of passing interest, yet he announces it even before he gets to the bigger news (and, in the screenplay, pauses afterward) You'd think Jack would normally say, "Aguirre came by, said to bring 'em down" and then after that, or maybe even hours later, he'd add, "Oh by the way, Aguirre also said my uncle didn't die after all."

So let's figure out what purpose Uncle Harold is supposed to serve.

Here's what I notice: The scene where Aguirre announces Uncle Harold's illness mirrors the post-divorce scene, in several ways. In both, someone -- Aguirre in the first and Jack in the latter -- shows up unexpectedly and says, "So here I am." In both, Jack is wearing uncharacteristically dark clothes (going from memory, I think his shirt is blue in the Aguirre scene, but it's a darker, grayer blue than usual, and in post-divorce it's black and gray, colors that elsewhere in the movie seem associated with death or murder). In both, someone has been doing some investigating beforehand -- Aguirre with the binoculars, Jack by asking 10 people where Ennis lives. In the first, Aguirre peers at Ennis through his binoculars and Jack follows his gaze, perhaps realizing what Aguirre is thinking. In the second, Ennis peers at the white truck and Jack follows his gaze, perhaps realizing what Ennis is thinking.

So what does it all mean? When Jack says, "nothing I can do about it up here," and Aguirre agrees, "nothing you can do about it down there, either," are they metaphorically talking about Jack's inability to do anything to change Ennis' mind? Or does Uncle Harold somehow fit into Ennis' fears about the dangers they'd face if they lived together -- and does his recovery show that the dangers actually aren't as great as Ennis believed? Is Uncle Harold gay (as someone theorized a while back)?

What are your thoughts?

[Front-Ranger]

It seems rude to reply to your well-thought-out answers with a zany response, but have U checked out The Performance Thread, a parody-slash-tribute-slash-shameless mugging for the camera site? There you'll find an out-there answer, that Uncle Harold and Aguirre met 20 years ago as fellow sheepherders on Brokeback Mountain...and the rest is history!! I'll put these questions in my lungs though and see if anything more productive gestates.

[Katie77]

When I watch the movie, I find it hard to believe, that a "pig" like Aguirre, would even take any notice of the call from Jack's Mum about Uncle Harold, let alone get on his horse and ride all the way up to the mountain to tell Jack.

My thought would be that if Jacks mum rang about an Uncle being sick, Aguirre would be more than likely to say "Well what the f*** do you want me to do about it, I'm not f***ing riding all the way up that f***ing mountain to tell some f***ing dumbass that his f***ing uncle is sick".

[serious crayons]

Uncle Harold and Aguirre met 20 years ago as fellow sheepherders on Brokeback Mountain...and the rest is history!!

There's an interesting theory ...

My thought would be that if Jacks mum rang about an Uncle being sick, Aguirre would be more than likely to say "Well what the f*** do you want me to do about it, I'm not f***ing riding all the way up that f***ing mountain to tell some f***ing dumbass that his f***ing uncle is sick".

Good point! It does seem out of character for Aguirre to do that favor. More likely he'd respond the way he did to the phone call when they were all in his trailer. 

[Rutella]

Unless of course Aguirre just made it all up so he'd have an excuse to come up the mountain and spy on the boys (after all them ranch stiffs aint never no good)...or rather he comes up to spy on the boys and then when he sees more than he expected (or maybe exactly what he expects??) he uses Uncle Harold (whether he is really ill or not) as an excuse just to show Jack 'hey I've got binoculars, you think you're all alone up here but you can't escape the spying eye of society'. And then when he comes back up to tell them to come down he adds the 'by the way Uncle Harold isn't dead'.

[serious crayons]

Unless of course Aguirre just made it all up so he'd have an excuse to come up the mountain and spy on the boys (after all them ranch stiffs aint never no good)...or rather he comes up to spy on the boys and then when he sees more than he expected (or maybe exactly what he expects??) he uses Uncle Harold (whether he is really ill or not) as an excuse just to show Jack 'hey I've got binoculars, you think you're all alone up here but you can't escape the spying eye of society'. And then when he comes back up to tell them to come down he adds the 'by the way Uncle Harold isn't dead'.

Though somehow he'd have to know that Jack HAD an Uncle Harold ...

[Rutella]

Ah. Good point! 

[nakymaton]

Isn't pneumonia a disease of the lungs? Lungs, breath, wind?

(Just hit me if this has already come up. Somehow I think it has. Plus, I have no idea whether I have a point to make or not.)

I wonder if Jack and Ennis hadn't been talking about Uncle Harold, or something. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, somebody not dying is a bigger deal than having to end a job early. Except that in BBM, ending the job early means so much more.

(Edit) Also, I wonder if Jack would have been expected to go to Uncle Harold's funeral if he had died?

[serious crayons]

(Edit) Also, I wonder if Jack would have been expected to go to Uncle Harold's funeral if he had died?

Doubt it. Jack doesn't seem all that concerned about Uncle Harold or indicate he might have to go, even back when the docs didn't expect he'd make it. It wasn't, "Oh my god, he's my favorite uncle, and he's only in his late 40s, way too young to die, what else did my mom say?" It was kind of a shrugging, "Guess there's not much I can do about it up here."

[jpwagoneer1964]

 
 
 " In both, Jack is wearing uncharacteristically dark clothes (going from memory, I think his shirt is blue in the Aguirre scene, but it's a darker, grayer blue than usual, and in post-divorce it's black and gray, colors that elsewhere in the movie seem associated with death or murder). I

Jack is wearing the solid dark grey shirt he is seen in several of the Brokeback scenes. His only other one is 'the' blue denimn.

[serious crayons]

Jack is wearing the solid dark grey shirt he is seen in several of the Brokeback scenes. His only other one is 'the' blue denimn.

Oh, OK. Thanks for the clarification, JP. 

[Penthesilea]

Here's what I notice: The scene where Aguirre announces Uncle Harold's illness mirrors the post-divorce scene, in several ways. In both, someone -- Aguirre in the first and Jack in the latter -- shows up unexpectedly and says, "So here I am." In both, Jack is wearing uncharacteristically dark clothes (going from memory, I think his shirt is blue in the Aguirre scene, but it's a darker, grayer blue than usual, and in post-divorce it's black and gray, colors that elsewhere in the movie seem associated with death or murder). In both, someone has been doing some investigating beforehand -- Aguirre with the binoculars, Jack by asking 10 people where Ennis lives. In the first, Aguirre peers at Ennis through his binoculars and Jack follows his gaze, perhaps realizing what Aguirre is thinking. In the second, Ennis peers at the white truck and Jack follows his gaze, perhaps realizing what Ennis is thinking.

Great observations, Katherine 



"So here I am" said by Aguirre always makes me chuckle. I don't know exactly why, but I find it pretty funny how he delivers this line: not grumbling like he mostly speaks, but somehow... I don't know, can't find the right expression for it. But it's definately different.
And this applies for both versions I've seen: the original and the German dubbed version. Something is definately in Aguirre's tone and it's outstanding enough that the dubbing people noticed it and incorporated it.
I've never seen someone mention that this sentence by Aguirre is funny. Am I the only one who thinks so? Or is it so obvious that nobody mentions it?

Thinking about it, the whole conversation is funny, or at least strange.
Paraphrasing here:
Jack: Nothing I can do about it up here
Aguirre: Nothing you can do down there neither. Unless you can cure pneumonia.

Aguirre answers as if Jack would have considered to go down the mountain to rush to Uncle Harold's sickbed. And as if Aguirre would assure him to stay up the mountain, because it wouldn't make any difference.
But Jack's tone isn't concerned or at least upset, Jack is rather indifferent about it. Jack surely did not consider running down the mountain because of Uncle Harold. Or did he (NO!)? Or did he think his mother expectates him to?

More questions than answers, as usual.


For the OP question: I always thought the purpuse this scene serves is to show us (and Jack) that they are not invisible on the mountain, as they believed.

I just checked the story about it and noticed a difference to the movie: in the story Aguirre comes by two times only to give Jack news about Uncle Harold. The first time is the scene we see in the movie. The second time is only shortly mentioned: "Though he [U.Harold] did[survive] and Aguirre came up again to say so, fixing Jack with his bold stare, not bothering to dismount." The bold stare and not dismounting is included in the scene in the movie.
But in the story Aguirre's second visit up the mountain is not the day when he says to bring them down. The second time Aguirre comes by is even before the hailstorm (the one which courses the mixed sheep). When Aguirre wants our boys to bring the sheep dowm, he doesn't come himself, he sends word.

[serious crayons]

Great observations, Katherine 

Thanks, Chrissi!

"So here I am" said by Aguirre always makes me chuckle. I don't know exactly why, but I find it pretty funny how he delivers this line: not grumbling like he mostly speaks, but somehow... I don't know, can't find the right expression for it. But it's definately different.

I know what you mean, and it IS hard to articulate. There's something light, or even flip, about it, something slightly ironic. Maybe because Aguirre wouldn't normally consent to run an errand for someone else, but under these circumstances he's doing it, so his tone acknowledges that in this one instance he's grudgingly being uncharacteristically nice.

And maybe, too, it sounds funny after you've seen the movie more than once, because it echoes Jack saying the same line, under such different circumstances.

Aguirre: ... Unless you can cure pneumonia.

I've often thought that line seems significant, too. From time to time people have mentioned Jack's savior-like qualities -- first there's mention of him controlling the weather, here it's about curing disease.

And, as Mel says, the fact that pneumonia is a disease of the lungs (wind) may be important.

But how?!? 

[Mikaela]

Couple of thoughts on this:

I've half-way considered poor uncle Harold a means to tie the boys to the outside world, reminding them (and us) that the real world off the mountain is waiting, - the world they are soon going to have to live in. A place where they have family and family-related obligations. A place where people are ill and even dying. A place where supporting the family, being part of a family, illnesses and births and deaths and the implications of such events take on a much greater importance relative to the emotions the boys are grappling with on the mountain. Yes; a far cry from their isolated heaven on the Mountain.

Aguirre being the messenger between those two worlds just seems to fit, somehow.

I've pondered how little we get to see and hear about the familiy members. Especially about Ennis's family, perhaps. There are his brother and his sister, both of whom are married, so I assume as time goes by there are nephews and nieces as well. Before he's divorced, there are the in-laws, Alma's sister, her mother (and father and grandmother) - probably further family members on Alma's side. Through their connection to his girls Alma's family in a way remain his family even after the divorce. Yet we never get to meet all these people (apart from a tiny glimpse in the wedding - I suppose that's Ennis's brother and Alma's sister we see left and right of bride and groom?) We never get to know them. Judging from the film narrative, they meant little in Ennis's grown-up life. Ennis must have kept in contact, though - there must have been Christmases, Thanksgivings, christenings, weddings, other events and just family meet-ups.

Apparently, apart from the untimely death of his parents,  none of that made a significant impression in his life, neither as one-time specific watershed events, nor as representative of the direction his life is going in. While many of the meetings with Jack did take on such importance. I suppose it's all showing us how much family took back stage in Ennis's mind to his relationship with Jack.

Nevertheless, when seeing Jack's uncle Harold in that light, he's useful simply as an early reminder that the boys *have* family connections and obligations, beyond what we get to see in the film itself.

Perhaps he's also an indication that family ties and obligations are stronger and mean more on the Twist side of affairs than on the Del Mar side - also considering Jack's going back to help his folks out in later years.

Perhaps the total picture of family relations in the film is showing us that Ennis, having experienced the shock and trauma of his parents' death, consciously or subconsciously made sure to keep family at arms length thereafter - simply to avoid another such painful grief.

Perhaps uncle Harold *not* dying after all contrasts the Del Mars' too-early death - or rather contrasts the impact on Ennis and Jack, respectively: Of losing family members - or of keeping them. Of experiencing the grief of abandonment through death, or of having it pass you by......

Lots of thoughts here, brought on by the elusive uncle Harold! 

----------

I've somehow gotten the impression that Aguirre knows Jack's mother. I just think he speaks relatively respectfully there - as if he knows who Jack's ma *is*, and feels especially obliged to do her a service and convey a message himself after having talked with her. It's not entirely impossible that they knew each other once upon a time, is it?  As we later learn, Jack's mother *is* a woman who inspires respect and kindness even in quite gruff guys (unless they're her hubby). Aguirre knowing Mrs. Twist from before might be one reason why Jack was hired on the first year. Might even be the reason why Aguirre holds back from letting Ennis and Jack have it after he discovers them in flagranti.

[Mikaela]

Oops - did I scare everyone away with my stream-of-consciousnesss ramblings about uncle Harold? Hope not. Because here are some further random thoughts.

I forgot the most obvious of all, I think - that uncle Harold serves to point out that Jack, specifically, has close family beyond his parents. From the rest of the tale that's not apparent. We don't get to see Jack's and Lureen's wedding (which must have been a very quiet affair, anyway - not even their picture taken) and we don't hear about any other of Jack's family members as far as I can recall. Neither is there exactly an abundance of family pics on the Twist farmstead's walls.  The existence of Harold makes the contrast to Ennis less stark - both Ennis and Jack *do* have a family  - however much or little they're seen to be in contact with that family.

We don't know the first thing about uncle Harold, but when did that stop *me* from speculating?  Suppose he was the positive male role model to Jack that his father certainly was not.... even though we never hear about it, Jack *may* have had other supportive adults to relate to, growing up, in addition to his mother. I like that thought. 

I wonder if the "ain't much I can do about it up here" /Ain't much you can do about it down there neither" exchange is simply their way of saying: "I think I may have to leave/No you don't, there's no call for that."

[serious crayons]

I wonder if the "ain't much I can do about it up here" /Ain't much you can do about it down there neither" exchange is simply their way of saying: "I think I may have to leave/No you don't, there's no call for that."

To me, Jack doesn't sound very interested in leaving. In other words, he's not saying, "Ain't much I can do about up here  ... so I'd better get packing." More like, "... so I guess he's a goner." And Aguirre, rather than talking Jack out of going, sounds to me like he's just reassuring him (gruffly, of course) that Jack's presence wouldn't make a difference in Uncle Earl's fate anyway.

Back to your thoughts about Ennis' contact with his family vs. Jack's. It's true, we do see more of Jack's. Partly because they're more crucial to the plot; it's possible Ennis saw his relatives but Ang Lee and the camera crew just didn't go along.

But I realized reading your post that Ennis hardly ever even mentions his siblings -- except as a way of sharing info with Jack -- whereas Jack mentions his folks pretty frequently. Which made me think: you know, in some ways we know more about Jack's life than we do Ennis'. Even though Ennis has more screen time, parts of his life are mysterious. For example, what did he do between leaving the mountain and marrying Alma? Where did he meet Alma in the first place, for that matter? For some reason, I feel like I can pretty well picture Jack's life in Childress and even in Lightning Flat, whereas Ennis' in Riverton seems hazier.

[Mikaela]

To me, Jack doesn't sound very interested in leaving.

I agree - but he has a huge reason to not want to leave..... Perhaps his lack of enthusiasm and the circumspect way he frames his comment stem from him feeling he *should* leave, should *want* to leave - but he absolutely wants no such thing. He just wants to be with the one who makes him laugh and lets him love.  Especially in view of the happy scene that Aguirre witnesses before he rides down to camp to tell Jack of uncle Harold -  I imagine it would take more than a bout of family phneumonia to make Jack really want to leave from the heaven he's in just then.

[serious crayons]

“Not so lonely like you were raised” means she knew Ennis’s childhood was unhappy, but since he doesn’t say much I often think they knew each other growing up. Her sister’s in Riverton, though, so I’m at a loss to say for sure.

Good point. I always pictured them meeting at a church picnic or something, maybe matched up by others. Maybe Alma's sister is married to a guy Ennis worked with or something. Otherwise Alma probably would have to be the initiator, and that's a bit hard to picture. She's no Lureen or Cassie.

But you've got a good point, Barbara. If she didn't know him growing up, how would she know he was raised lonely? That would require him talking to her in depth about his childhood. And not only that, discussing his emotions! Not likely!

[opinionista]

What is up with Uncle Harold? He's a phantom character we hear about but never see (along with Roy Taylor, Don Wroe, Steve, Kurt, Troy and Ennis' mother -- only Uncle Harold is far more conspicuous and seemingly significant)? Why would the movie introduce a character, put him in dire jeopardy, then save his life -- all completely offscreen and with little or no connection to the plot?

The news about Uncle Harold's pneumonia is ostensibly what gets Aguirre up the mountain and in a position to spy on Jack and Ennis. But it also seems kind of pointless. Aguirre could have been given any number of other routine reasons for stopping by; he could even just be checking on things. Uncle Harold's illness does not propel any action -- Aguirre rather indifferently makes the announcement, Jack rather indifferently replies that he can't do anything about it, Aguirre agrees, and that's the end of that.

By the time they break camp, we viewers have pretty much forgotten about Uncle Harold. Yet, as if we'd been waiting in suspense, Jack feels compelled to mention him again and reassure us that he's OK. He says it quickly, as if it's only of passing interest, yet he announces it even before he gets to the bigger news (and, in the screenplay, pauses afterward) You'd think Jack would normally say, "Aguirre came by, said to bring 'em down" and then after that, or maybe even hours later, he'd add, "Oh by the way, Aguirre also said my uncle didn't die after all."

So let's figure out what purpose Uncle Harold is supposed to serve.

Here's what I notice: The scene where Aguirre announces Uncle Harold's illness mirrors the post-divorce scene, in several ways. In both, someone -- Aguirre in the first and Jack in the latter -- shows up unexpectedly and says, "So here I am." In both, Jack is wearing uncharacteristically dark clothes (going from memory, I think his shirt is blue in the Aguirre scene, but it's a darker, grayer blue than usual, and in post-divorce it's black and gray, colors that elsewhere in the movie seem associated with death or murder). In both, someone has been doing some investigating beforehand -- Aguirre with the binoculars, Jack by asking 10 people where Ennis lives. In the first, Aguirre peers at Ennis through his binoculars and Jack follows his gaze, perhaps realizing what Aguirre is thinking. In the second, Ennis peers at the white truck and Jack follows his gaze, perhaps realizing what Ennis is thinking.

So what does it all mean? When Jack says, "nothing I can do about it up here," and Aguirre agrees, "nothing you can do about it down there, either," are they metaphorically talking about Jack's inability to do anything to change Ennis' mind? Or does Uncle Harold somehow fit into Ennis' fears about the dangers they'd face if they lived together -- and does his recovery show that the dangers actually aren't as great as Ennis believed? Is Uncle Harold gay (as someone theorized a while back)?

What are your thoughts?

There's no enough information to infer that Uncle Harold was gay. That is rather unlikely, IMO. In any case he'll be a very very very closeted gay. I always thought that uncle Harold line was a plot device to let us know that Aguirre knew about Ennis and Jack's secret. In the movie he sees them frolicking on the ground. In the sort story he sees them having sex. When Jack comes back to Aguirre looking for work the third time, long after he and Ennis had left BBM, Aguirre tells him he knew they weren't doing their jobs: "Twist, you guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dog baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose", Aguirre said. If Proulx had written that line without some previous context, we wouldn't have understood how he knew. Also, it was to show some of the consequences of being gay in the 1960's in Wyoming. I think Aguirre refuses to re hire Jack because of what he knew about him.

On the other hand, Aguirre didn't trust them with the sheep. I think he hired them because he had no other choice. He didn't have a long line of people in front of his trailer hoping he give them the job, did he? When he first meet with Ennis and Jack and explains the job, he he makes a point that he doesn't want to lose another 25% of his cattle, the 25% Jack had lost the previous year. So, my guess is that he uses the Unlce Harold information as an excuse to spy on them.

[serious crayons]

There's not enough information to infer that Uncle Harold was gay. That is rather unlikely, IMO.

I absolutely agree. I was being kind of flip. I think at one time or another, people here have speculated that every presumably straight man in the movie is gay: Aguirre, Jimbo, Old Man Twist ...

I always thought that uncle Harold line was a plot device to let us know that Aguirre knew about Ennis and Jack's secret.

I agree, I think he's a reason for getting Aguirre up there. But the Uncle Harold subplot is so elaborate and yet so pointless, when Aguirre could easily have been given a simpler, less complicated reason for stopping by. In a way, Uncle Harold is like the tattooed lady dancing in the bar -- so conspicuous you wonder if she's supposed to mean something beyond just showing that Ennis and Cassie weren't the only people in the bar dancing. Same with Uncle Harold; I wonder if he's supposed to have some metaphoric or symbolic significance in addition to serving the practical function of prompting Aguirre to pay a visit.

[nakymaton]

Hmmmm. I don't think Aguirre was looking for an excuse to spy on them. He hired a couple of ranch kids at low wages to tend the sheep for the summer (and the sheep-herding jobs tend to go to the lowest people on the economic ladder -- I think in the story-to-screenplay book Annie Proulx says she had to make sure that Anglo ranch kids were actually hired for sheep-herding jobs in the early 60's). Aguirre could have herded the sheep himself, if he cared that much.

Aguirre probably had to take a whole day to ride up to treeline and back. Big pain in the neck.

I think Uncle Harold and Aguirre's message about him served basically the purpose that Mikaela described -- that he reminds the audience that society still exists, and that the mountain isn't as removed from the rest of the world as Ennis and Jack believe it is, and that family is part of society. (And that's part of the tragedy of the story. It comes up even more strongly when we learn about Ennis's father showing Ennis the murdered man. It's easy to blame "society" for stuff that's wrong, but it's more personal and painful when "society" means one's own family.)

As for Katherine's question about why Jack doesn't seem to care that much... you know, that is odd. The more I think about it, the more I think that an only child might very well have been expected to come down from the mountain when a close relative (the brother of his mother or father) was ill, regardless of how close Jack was to his uncle. If one or both of Jack's parents had extra responsibilities when Uncle Harold was sick, it wouldn't be surprising at all if they wanted Jack to come back to Lightning Flat and help out with the family ranch. So to me, it seems as if Jack's seeming lack of interest indicates how willing Jack is to ignore society (and his family) for his relationship with Ennis. (Imagine the situation flipped around, and Ennis being told that a relative was sick. I imagine that Ennis would at least have been all confused about the conflict between his responsibility to his family and his relationship with Jack.)

[opinionista]

But the Uncle Harold subplot is so elaborate and yet so pointless, when Aguirre could easily have been given a simpler, less complicated reason for stopping by. In a way, Uncle Harold is like the tattooed lady dancing in the bar -- so conspicuous you wonder if she's supposed to mean something beyond just showing that Ennis and Cassie weren't the only people in the bar dancing. Same with Uncle Harold; I wonder if he's supposed to have some metaphoric or symbolic significance in addition to serving the practical function of prompting Aguirre to pay a visit.

I can't think of anything else, except perhaps what Mikaela says that it's to show that society still exists. On the other hand, it could also be to show that Jack wasn't as lonely as Ennis in terms of family. In spite of the problems he had with his dad, it seems like he had a pretty united family, considering that his mom went all the trouble to call his boss and tell him about Unlce Harold being sick.

In fact, that scene in particular sort of helped me understand Jack's parent's reaction towards Ennis when he visits them. I'm sure they weren't too thrilled with the fact that Jack was gay, but somehow they accepted him as he was, including his father, IMO. Jack's dad was a hard man, but at least he wasn't as violent as Ennis's dad.  Sure, they didn't get along but that could be for other reasons other than Jack being gay, though obviously that had to count for something. A lot of straight men have bad relationship with their fathers for many of reasons, not necessarily for their sexuality, and that could be Jack's case, IMO.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I can't think of anything else, except perhaps what Mikaela says that it's to show that society still exists. On the other hand, it could also be to show that Jack wasn't as lonely as Ennis in terms of family. In spite of the problems he had with his dad, it seems like he had a pretty united family, considering that his mom went all the trouble to call his boss and tell him about Unlce Harold being sick.

 

I think Jack was lonely as a child at least for other kids to play with, no brothers or sisters, I doubt that many kids could come all the way to LF to play. There is also a hint in the bookand screen play the Jack might be adopted.

[Marge_Innavera]

Jack doesn't seem all that concerned about Uncle Harold or indicate he might have to go, even back when the docs didn't expect he'd make it. It wasn't, "Oh my god, he's my favorite uncle, and he's only in his late 40s, way too young to die, what else did my mom say?" It was kind of a shrugging, "Guess there's not much I can do about it up here."

But you're not told how much contact he's had with his uncle over the years. This might be someone he last saw when he was 11 or 12. And I didn't hear his comment about 'not much I can do about it up here' as being callous. It might be if it were his mother Aguirre was talking about but in that context I heard it as just being realistic. It would take hours to get all the way off the mountain (they're on the upper slopes by that time, remember) and who knows how many hours to get to where his uncle was; might have even taken a few days. That's just the reality in areas where the landscape is on that big a scale.

And I wouldn't see Aguirre as necessarily being rude to the mother when she called. What we see of him is his role as a hard-headed and inconsiderate boss. But people who are like that wouldn't necessarily adopt that persona if the mother of an employee called. If he wanted to spy on his two employees he wouldn't need an excuse or even have to give them a reason.

[serious crayons]

In fact, that scene in particular sort of helped me understand Jack's parent's reaction towards Ennis when he visits them. I'm sure they weren't too thrilled with the fact that Jack was gay, but somehow they accepted him as he was, including his father, IMO.

Natali, I completely agree. In fact, there was a big discussion of this on another thread a while back. Not only is Jack's mother accepting of Jack's sexuality, but his father's main complaint isn't about Jack's being gay but about Jack's plans never come to pass. Apparently he would have been fine with two men living together if it meant he'd get extra help on the ranch. I think the whole idea is to let Ennis see for the first time in his life that not everybody in the world is homophobic. First Mrs. Twist isn't, but she's so nice that it's not a big surprise. But the fact Mr. Twist -- an obnoxious jerk as well as a rancher who is in many respects a parallel to Ennis' own dad -- ALSO isn't homophobic either must really be an eye-opener for Ennis.

But you're not told how much contact he's had with his uncle over the years. This might be someone he last saw when he was 11 or 12. And I didn't hear his comment about 'not much I can do about it up here' as being callous.

Me neither. I agree it was a mixture of the ordeal of getting down off the mountain, combined with his strong desire not to leave Ennis.

And I wouldn't see Aguirre as necessarily being rude to the mother when she called. What we see of him is his role as a hard-headed and inconsiderate boss. But people who are like that wouldn't necessarily adopt that persona if the mother of an employee called. If he wanted to spy on his two employees he wouldn't need an excuse or even have to give them a reason.

I agree with this, too. I actually was being kind of flip before; I don't think he'd necessarily be rude to Mrs. Twist. But I think his traveling up the mountain to give the news to Jack puts him in the unaccustomed position of having to go out of his way on behalf of a scrawny-assed ranch stiff, which under normal conditions he would never stoop to do, which is why there's a hint of bemused irony in his "So here I am."

But you're right, he certainly wouldn't need an excuse. Or, if the excuse is just there to explain it to the audience, he wouldn't need that elaborate of an excuse.

Another question: Does anybody think it's odd when, as Ennis rides up after the snowfall, Jack announces right off the bat Aguirre said that his uncle didn't die, before he even gets around to the bigger news -- that they're leaving the mountain? You'd think it would be the other way around, or even that he would have mentioned it later, like "Oh, by the way, Aguirre says my uncle didn't die after all." I, for one, had pretty much forgotten about Uncle Harold by then. If I remembered him, I might have just assumed he had died, which really wouldn't have made any difference in the plot. So why is it important to make a point of saying that he pulled through?

What I'm getting at here is not so much whether Jack would have said that in real life or not, whether he'd be sensitive enough to care about his uncle or whatever, but is there some kind of symbolic significance in making such a big deal about a character who never even appears onscreen?

[opinionista]

Natali, I completely agree. In fact, there was a big discussion of this on another thread a while back. Not only is Jack's mother accepting of Jack's sexuality, but his father's main complaint isn't about Jack's being gay but about Jack's plans never come to pass. Apparently he would have been fine with two men living together if it meant he'd get extra help on the ranch. I think the whole idea is to let Ennis see for the first time in his life that not everybody in the world is homophobic. First Mrs. Twist isn't, but she's so nice that it's not a big surprise. But the fact Mr. Twist -- an obnoxious jerk as well as a rancher who is in many respects a parallel to Ennis' own dad -- ALSO isn't homophobic either must really be an eye-opener for Ennis.

I remember the discussion. However, I think this is not about being homophobic or not. I think it goes beyond that. If Jack's dad were to see two men kissing on the street, two complete strangers, for example, he might feel annoyed and may not approve it. But Jack is his son, his only son. Whatever problem they might have, and whatever mistake he might have made raising Jack that doesn't change the fact that he loved his son, and that love could make him more tolerant towards Jack's sexuality. He might even feel guilty about it, because sadly some people see homosexuality as some kind of disease or mental problem, especially people with little schooling as Jack's parents probably were.

On the other hand, I think Jack's dad was angry because Jack went away, and left them alone with a ranch to run. IMO he didn't want to let Ennis spread the ashes at BBM because he wanted his son to be home, not because he despised him so much to deny him his last wish. Those are my 2 cents.

[southendmd]

Interesting thread. Here's my two cents:

Since we BetterMostians like to find meaning in everything, it is hard to imagine Uncle Harold as being purely gratuitous. So, let's keep trying!

I'm particularly interested in word and name origins. We know Annie P is, with the rodeo meaning of twist, the "island in the sea" meaning to Ennis, etc.
Here's what I found on Harold (and there's not much):

The name Harold is from here-weald in Old English and means "army leader".

Famously, King Harold II of England lost and was killed in the Battle of Hastings in 1066, and people stopped naming babies Harold for several centuries.

Here's a real stretch, but I like it: Harold was Batman's aide, helping design, build and repair much of his equipment.  He was mute, originally a henchman for the Penguin, but he new Batman's true identity.



I like the idea that pneumonia is a disease of the wind, which is Jack's element, but, what then...?  Does this act as a preview to Jack's death? Pneumonia is like drowning, Jack (in the story) talks about drowning in the deep blue of the sky; later Lureen tells us he drowned in his own blood.

[serious crayons]

However, I think this is not about being homophobic or not. I think it goes beyond that. If Jack's dad were to see two men kissing on the street, two complete strangers, for example, he might feel annoyed and may not approve it.

Could be, Natali. We don't know much about him, and I wouldn't try to argue that, in his heart of hearts, OMT has no shred of homophobia. I guess in this case, as in the other thread, I was focusing less on analyzing OMT's psyche than figuring out what effect OMT's apparent acceptance of Jack's sexuality might have on Ennis, and what that might mean for storytelling purposes. As far as those issues go, what I see as most important in that scene is that OMT shows no outward sign, at least, of being a homophobe. Just a jerk.

If nothing else, Jack's parents' behavior may help explain why Ennis and Jack had such different attitudes toward their own sexuality.

Since we BetterMostians like to find meaning in everything, it is hard to imagine Uncle Harold as being purely gratuitous.

Thanks, southendmd! That's a succinct way of saying what I'm hoping to do.

I like the idea that pneumonia is a disease of the wind, which is Jack's element, but, what then...?  Does this act as a preview to Jack's death? Pneumonia is like drowning, Jack (in the story) talks about drowning in the deep blue of the sky; later Lureen tells us he drowned in his own blood.

Good observation! I like that alot.

Just playing around with the idea: Despite the fear of a probable death (in this case, Harold's), Jack opts to stay on the mountain (i.e., live with Ennis). And then Uncle Harold doesn't die after all. The fear of death in that case appears to have been overblown -- suggesting, maybe, that Ennis' fears of death if they lived together was overblown, too?

Oh, and I just thought of another one. There's nothin Jack can do to save Uncle Harold, either up here (living with Ennis) or down there (in society). In other words, death will come whether Jack lives with Ennis or not -- nothing Jack can do about it. And sure enough, it did come, and not because of his relationship with Ennis. Life is unpredictable.

That also might hint at why Jack mentions Harold's recovery before he mentions that they're going down -- to separate the two concepts, to place Harold's recovery within the time frame of their living together (if he mentioned it on the way down the mountain, it might seem kind of like Harold survived because they're going down, not despite their living together).

Also, speaking of names (another good idea, southendmd!), Harold sounds like "herald." The definitions for herald include (reading my dictionary) as a noun, "an official crier or messenger," "harbinger," "announcer," and as a verb, "to give notice." If Harold's bout with pneumonia is supposed to be a harbinger of Jack's death, then those definitions certainly would apply!

One other possible connection: if the Harold episode is supposed to, in a way, represent the link between them living together and Jack's death, then it also might be significant that his death scare coincides with Aguirre's spying. In other words, even though Jack's and Ennis' relationship was discovered by the "eyes of society" (Aguirre's binoculars), there was no death, at least in that case.

Another question: do you all think it's significant that this scene so strongly echoes the post-divorce scene? One brainstorming possibility -- people here have talked about the idea that this scene is where Jack starts, figuratively speaking, to die. And Uncle Harold had started to die in a literal sense.

I just thought of another echo between the scenes: in the first, Jack gets to choose between a relative and Ennis, and he chooses Ennis. In the second, Ennis chooses between relatives (his daughters) and Jack, and he chooses the relatives.

What are your thoughts, everybody?

[dly64]

I am getting a kick out of reading this thread. I agree with what many of you have said previously ....

I can't think of anything else, except perhaps what Mikaela says that it's to show that society still exists. On the other hand, it could also be to show that Jack wasn't as lonely as Ennis in terms of family. In spite of the problems he had with his dad, it seems like he had a pretty united family, considering that his mom went all the trouble to call his boss and tell him about Uncle Harold being sick.

I know someone also said (but I can’t find the quote) that the Uncle Harold scenario was simply a plot device to get Aguirre up on the mountain.

I agree with both of those interpretations.

A few things had come to me while reading this thread … Katherine, you pointed out the odd timing of Jack’s comment to Ennis … “Aguirre came by again. Said my uncle didn’t die after all …. He said to bring ‘em down.”  The timing on that is strange. I guess I have always thought that it was Jack’s way of delaying the bad news to Ennis. Isn’t that Jack’s typical way of communicating with Ennis? Jack has a way of leaving out bits of information that might be painful for Ennis to hear. Example: the motel scene … Jack conveniently leaves out that Aguirre knew full well that Jack and Ennis were having sex on BBM. Why? Because this would have caused Ennis even more anxiety and paranoia. Ennis believed that Jack “brushed over” the truth (which was confirmed during the painful lake scene confrontation). Jack was correct in handling Ennis in this way … because when the reality of the situation was revealed, Ennis collapsed.

 
Another thing that has been brought up here is how little we know about both Jack’s and Ennis’ families.

What we know about Jack: his parents are both alive and he has an Uncle Harold. We can surmise that Jack is an only child. He is married to Lureen (who also appears to be an only child) and has a son (who, too, is an only child). He has a SOB father-in-law and an uptight mother-in-law.

What we know about Ennis: his parents died in a car accident. He has a sister who married a “roughneck” and a brother who got married when Ennis was 19. At that point, Ennis was kicked out of the house. Ennis marries Alma who has a sister … but we know nothing else about her family …. and he has two daughters.

There are many contrasts between Jack and Ennis … this being one. We know a lot more about Jack’s extended family than we do about Ennis’. This is simply one more example of Ennis’ isolative existence.

I love this quote:

The movie wisely never steps back to look at the larger picture, or deliver the "message." It is specifically the story of these men, this love. It stays in closeup. That's how Jack and Ennis see it.


Had all of these family members been too prominent, the focus of this story would have been lost. We are given just enough information about the world around them.

[nakymaton]

I guess I have always thought that it was Jack’s way of delaying the bad news to Ennis. Isn’t that Jack’s typical way of communicating with Ennis?

Yes. And Jack especially tends to put off talking about Serious Relationship Things. ("I swear I didn't know we was going to get into this again... I guess I did. Red-lined it all the way.") Or the half-lie, half-truth, half-joke about the ranch foreman's wife before "Truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

Also, there's something about the rhythm of the dialogue there that I like, apart from its meaning (literal or symbolic). But that's beside it all. Sometimes I just like the way words sound.

I think it's got to be significant that Uncle Harold survived his disease of the lungs. It feels a bit like fate, or something, with the earlier comments about Jack not being able to do anything about it, wherever he was.

About the echoes of the post-divorce scene: in the post-divorce scene, Ennis is visibly worried about being seen simply talking to Jack. Aguirre does see Jack and Ennis, having sex even, but Ennis never knows about it.

[Lynne]

bump

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Okay I am watching the movie the other night and it got to where Aguirre rides up with the news that Uncle Harold has pneumonia. I dutifully note the block of wood on the chop block that will later disapear. Then the camera cuts to Jack twice, in frames 34:51 and 57, he is to the left of the scene in both and on the right hand side is very plainly a white cross. Next to it, a fainter crescent shaped object.

I had never seen these before. Has anyone else? In the cosmology that there are no coincidences, what would one make of it?

[Penthesilea]

Okay I am watching the movie the other night and it got to where Aguirre rides up with the news that Uncle Harold has pneumonia. I dutifully note the block of wood on the chop block that will later disapear. Then the camera cuts to Jack twice, in frames 34:51 and 57, he is to the left of the scene in both and on the right hand side is very plainly a white cross. Next to it, a fainter crescent shaped object.

I had never seen these before. Has anyone else? In the cosmology that there are no coincidences, what would one make of it?

You did just delete this post as its own topic and reposted it here while I was replying. Boy, I was confused for a moment 

Did you mean this?



It's almost better to be seen when the pic is only thumbnail sized:



I think the little white cross stands out better from the other colors in the thumb. It's directly right to Jack's left arm, half the way of his upper arm. And the crescent shaped object is right of the cross.

As we see in the larger version of the pic, the horizontal line of the cross is the log. But what is the vertical line? I have no idea and at first sight I'd say it is indeed coincidental.

It could be interpreted as Aguirre reminding Jack of the "real" world, the world outside their mountain Eden (which indeed he does with his presence and his story about Uncle Harold). Or it could be that the real world, the society with its hostile attitude towards homosexuality always lingers threatening behind Jack (and Ennis). The threat is always there, even in their garden Eden.

[Lynne]

You did just delete this post as its own topic and reposted it here while I was replying. Boy, I was confused for a moment 

Sorry, Chrissi...that was my fault.

Would someone please point out the crescent to me?

[Penthesilea]

Sorry, Chrissi...that was my fault.

Never mind. As you see, I found it again  .

Would someone please point out the crescent to me?

Do you see the cross? Look a little bit right from the cross, along the log. First comes a darker section, then the brighter crescent shaped object. It's also "on" or directly in front of the log. It almost looks like a fluff, a thread on the celluloid. Can you see it now?

[Shakesthecoffecan]

The crescent I was refering to is right next to the cross, on the right. It is fainter than the cross.

It almost looks like and Omega.

[Lynne]

Never mind. As you see, I found it again  .

Do you see the cross? Look a little bit right from the cross, along the log. First comes a darker section, then the brighter crescent shaped object. It's also "on" or directly in front of the log. It almost looks like a fluff, a thread on the celluloid. Can you see it now?

Got it!  Thank you, Chrissi.  I was looking for a crescent opening to the right, for some reason.

I love your interpretation of the cross - makes sense to me.

Now, the moon immediately springs to mind when I think of a crescent.  I went over to wikipedia and did some research.  A crescent opening to the left (in the northern hemisphere) is waxing, growing, new, wheras one opening to the right is waning, decreasing, old.

So I'm thinking the crescent is facing the wrong way for this interpretation to hold water.

Also from wiki:  "The crescent symbol is also used to represent the moon in astronomy and astrology, and to represent silver (the metal associated with the moon) in alchemy, where, by inference, it can also be used to represent qualities that silver possesses."

quicksilver Jack - I like this one.

[nakymaton]

quicksilver Jack - I like this one.

Annie Proulx described Jake's scenes as having a "quicksilver" quality to them.

[Lynne]

Annie Proulx described Jake's scenes as having a "quicksilver" quality to them.

Absolutely!  I know my scripture canon!

 

[serious crayons]

Well, if this is deliberate, it supports my feeling that there are some faintly religious undertones throughout the whole Uncle Harold episode. Uncle Harold -- or "herald," a harbinger or announcer -- may or may not die. Jack has no control over it, either from "up here," in their Brokeback Eden, or "down there" in worldly society. Not long after that, Uncle Harold is resurrected -- that is, he doesn't die, even though Jack didn't go see him. And that news is of such primary importance that Jack announces it to Ennis even before explaining that their mountain idyll is over.

What does it all mean? I'm not sure. I don't think it fits together into a neat package. But combined with the parallels in the post-divorce scene (an unexpected arrival announced with "here I am," someone peering off into the distance, Jack following the person's gaze and coming to a realization, a choice between between romantic love and family commitments -- Jack deciding one way and Ennis the other -- the prospect of being seen by the outside world, Uncle Harold's survival and Jack's figurative -- and eventually literal -- "death," both Uncle Harold's and Jack's involving fluid in the lungs), it seems to have something to do with being powerless to control fate through one's actions. Jack can't save Uncle Harold by "rejecting" Ennis, so he doesn't try, yet Uncle Harold survives anyway. Ennis thinks he can save them both by rejecting Jack, so he does, yet Jack does not survive anyway.

Does that make any sense?

[BBM-Cat]

Don't want to get OT, but are we missing a few pages of this thread? I remembered a few more pages, and maybe they were moved because they were getting OT from the topic of discussion about Uncle Harold.

Please delete this post if need be.

[Lynne]

Don't want to get OT, but are we missing a few pages of this thread? I remembered a few more pages, and maybe they were moved because they were getting OT from the topic of discussion about Uncle Harold.

Please delete this post if need be.

Sorry to cause confusion, Chris - I did split this thread after it diverged from Uncle Harold to a new 'Post Divorce Scene thread.'  The other posts are here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,7760.msg148214.html#msg148214

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Okay, so I am getting ready for bed last night and then it hits me: Mrs. Twist and the cross on the wall. I poped in the DVD and found it at frame 158:19, the two cross scenes almost compliment one another:

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Well, if this is deliberate, it supports my feeling that there are some faintly religious undertones throughout the whole Uncle Harold episode. Uncle Harold -- or "herald," a harbinger or announcer -- may or may not die. Jack has no control over it, either from "up here," in their Brokeback Eden, or "down there" in worldly society. Not long after that, Uncle Harold is resurrected -- that is, he doesn't die, even though Jack didn't go see him. And that news is of such primary importance that Jack announces it to Ennis even before explaining that their mountain idyll is over.

Yes, this makes quite a bit of sense. What I wonder is, is the authors and screen writers so in tune with symbolism like this they can just rattle it off like we have normal conversations? Thank you for the analogy.

[serious crayons]

Yes, this makes quite a bit of sense. What I wonder is, is the authors and screen writers so in tune with symbolism like this they can just rattle it off like we have normal conversations? Thank you for the analogy.

Well, it probably didn't come quite that easily. But it is not unusual for writers of literary fiction, like AP, to incorporate lots of symbolism. It wouldn't have been rattled off -- she spent six months working on the story -- but it's there, and it's deliberate. The story is packed with references to religion and mythology; AP is particularly good at it, but the effort is common among fiction writers. It's far less common among screen writers. But I think LM and DO, and later AL, were all sensitive to the symbolism in the story and looked for ways to either preserve the same symbols, or incorporate new ones, in the film.

[Penthesilea]

And that news is of such primary importance that Jack announces it to Ennis even before explaining that their mountain idyll is over.

I know it's ot here, cause it's not about Uncle Harold, but...
This always bothered me. We've discussed Jack's nonchalant, almost disinterested and too chipper attitude regarding coming down.
But why the f* did he mention Uncle Harold first? In doing so, he really seems disinterested about the other news.

On Harold's name: I found another meaning: hari= army, force and waltan= to preside, to control and reign/rule --> Harold= ruler of the forces