That zany Uncle Harold

[nakymaton]

Hmmmm. I don't think Aguirre was looking for an excuse to spy on them. He hired a couple of ranch kids at low wages to tend the sheep for the summer (and the sheep-herding jobs tend to go to the lowest people on the economic ladder -- I think in the story-to-screenplay book Annie Proulx says she had to make sure that Anglo ranch kids were actually hired for sheep-herding jobs in the early 60's). Aguirre could have herded the sheep himself, if he cared that much.

Aguirre probably had to take a whole day to ride up to treeline and back. Big pain in the neck.

I think Uncle Harold and Aguirre's message about him served basically the purpose that Mikaela described -- that he reminds the audience that society still exists, and that the mountain isn't as removed from the rest of the world as Ennis and Jack believe it is, and that family is part of society. (And that's part of the tragedy of the story. It comes up even more strongly when we learn about Ennis's father showing Ennis the murdered man. It's easy to blame "society" for stuff that's wrong, but it's more personal and painful when "society" means one's own family.)

As for Katherine's question about why Jack doesn't seem to care that much... you know, that is odd. The more I think about it, the more I think that an only child might very well have been expected to come down from the mountain when a close relative (the brother of his mother or father) was ill, regardless of how close Jack was to his uncle. If one or both of Jack's parents had extra responsibilities when Uncle Harold was sick, it wouldn't be surprising at all if they wanted Jack to come back to Lightning Flat and help out with the family ranch. So to me, it seems as if Jack's seeming lack of interest indicates how willing Jack is to ignore society (and his family) for his relationship with Ennis. (Imagine the situation flipped around, and Ennis being told that a relative was sick. I imagine that Ennis would at least have been all confused about the conflict between his responsibility to his family and his relationship with Jack.)

[opinionista]

But the Uncle Harold subplot is so elaborate and yet so pointless, when Aguirre could easily have been given a simpler, less complicated reason for stopping by. In a way, Uncle Harold is like the tattooed lady dancing in the bar -- so conspicuous you wonder if she's supposed to mean something beyond just showing that Ennis and Cassie weren't the only people in the bar dancing. Same with Uncle Harold; I wonder if he's supposed to have some metaphoric or symbolic significance in addition to serving the practical function of prompting Aguirre to pay a visit.

I can't think of anything else, except perhaps what Mikaela says that it's to show that society still exists. On the other hand, it could also be to show that Jack wasn't as lonely as Ennis in terms of family. In spite of the problems he had with his dad, it seems like he had a pretty united family, considering that his mom went all the trouble to call his boss and tell him about Unlce Harold being sick.

In fact, that scene in particular sort of helped me understand Jack's parent's reaction towards Ennis when he visits them. I'm sure they weren't too thrilled with the fact that Jack was gay, but somehow they accepted him as he was, including his father, IMO. Jack's dad was a hard man, but at least he wasn't as violent as Ennis's dad.  Sure, they didn't get along but that could be for other reasons other than Jack being gay, though obviously that had to count for something. A lot of straight men have bad relationship with their fathers for many of reasons, not necessarily for their sexuality, and that could be Jack's case, IMO.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I can't think of anything else, except perhaps what Mikaela says that it's to show that society still exists. On the other hand, it could also be to show that Jack wasn't as lonely as Ennis in terms of family. In spite of the problems he had with his dad, it seems like he had a pretty united family, considering that his mom went all the trouble to call his boss and tell him about Unlce Harold being sick.

 

I think Jack was lonely as a child at least for other kids to play with, no brothers or sisters, I doubt that many kids could come all the way to LF to play. There is also a hint in the bookand screen play the Jack might be adopted.

[Marge_Innavera]

Jack doesn't seem all that concerned about Uncle Harold or indicate he might have to go, even back when the docs didn't expect he'd make it. It wasn't, "Oh my god, he's my favorite uncle, and he's only in his late 40s, way too young to die, what else did my mom say?" It was kind of a shrugging, "Guess there's not much I can do about it up here."

But you're not told how much contact he's had with his uncle over the years. This might be someone he last saw when he was 11 or 12. And I didn't hear his comment about 'not much I can do about it up here' as being callous. It might be if it were his mother Aguirre was talking about but in that context I heard it as just being realistic. It would take hours to get all the way off the mountain (they're on the upper slopes by that time, remember) and who knows how many hours to get to where his uncle was; might have even taken a few days. That's just the reality in areas where the landscape is on that big a scale.

And I wouldn't see Aguirre as necessarily being rude to the mother when she called. What we see of him is his role as a hard-headed and inconsiderate boss. But people who are like that wouldn't necessarily adopt that persona if the mother of an employee called. If he wanted to spy on his two employees he wouldn't need an excuse or even have to give them a reason.

[serious crayons]

In fact, that scene in particular sort of helped me understand Jack's parent's reaction towards Ennis when he visits them. I'm sure they weren't too thrilled with the fact that Jack was gay, but somehow they accepted him as he was, including his father, IMO.

Natali, I completely agree. In fact, there was a big discussion of this on another thread a while back. Not only is Jack's mother accepting of Jack's sexuality, but his father's main complaint isn't about Jack's being gay but about Jack's plans never come to pass. Apparently he would have been fine with two men living together if it meant he'd get extra help on the ranch. I think the whole idea is to let Ennis see for the first time in his life that not everybody in the world is homophobic. First Mrs. Twist isn't, but she's so nice that it's not a big surprise. But the fact Mr. Twist -- an obnoxious jerk as well as a rancher who is in many respects a parallel to Ennis' own dad -- ALSO isn't homophobic either must really be an eye-opener for Ennis.

But you're not told how much contact he's had with his uncle over the years. This might be someone he last saw when he was 11 or 12. And I didn't hear his comment about 'not much I can do about it up here' as being callous.

Me neither. I agree it was a mixture of the ordeal of getting down off the mountain, combined with his strong desire not to leave Ennis.

And I wouldn't see Aguirre as necessarily being rude to the mother when she called. What we see of him is his role as a hard-headed and inconsiderate boss. But people who are like that wouldn't necessarily adopt that persona if the mother of an employee called. If he wanted to spy on his two employees he wouldn't need an excuse or even have to give them a reason.

I agree with this, too. I actually was being kind of flip before; I don't think he'd necessarily be rude to Mrs. Twist. But I think his traveling up the mountain to give the news to Jack puts him in the unaccustomed position of having to go out of his way on behalf of a scrawny-assed ranch stiff, which under normal conditions he would never stoop to do, which is why there's a hint of bemused irony in his "So here I am."

But you're right, he certainly wouldn't need an excuse. Or, if the excuse is just there to explain it to the audience, he wouldn't need that elaborate of an excuse.

Another question: Does anybody think it's odd when, as Ennis rides up after the snowfall, Jack announces right off the bat Aguirre said that his uncle didn't die, before he even gets around to the bigger news -- that they're leaving the mountain? You'd think it would be the other way around, or even that he would have mentioned it later, like "Oh, by the way, Aguirre says my uncle didn't die after all." I, for one, had pretty much forgotten about Uncle Harold by then. If I remembered him, I might have just assumed he had died, which really wouldn't have made any difference in the plot. So why is it important to make a point of saying that he pulled through?

What I'm getting at here is not so much whether Jack would have said that in real life or not, whether he'd be sensitive enough to care about his uncle or whatever, but is there some kind of symbolic significance in making such a big deal about a character who never even appears onscreen?

[opinionista]

Natali, I completely agree. In fact, there was a big discussion of this on another thread a while back. Not only is Jack's mother accepting of Jack's sexuality, but his father's main complaint isn't about Jack's being gay but about Jack's plans never come to pass. Apparently he would have been fine with two men living together if it meant he'd get extra help on the ranch. I think the whole idea is to let Ennis see for the first time in his life that not everybody in the world is homophobic. First Mrs. Twist isn't, but she's so nice that it's not a big surprise. But the fact Mr. Twist -- an obnoxious jerk as well as a rancher who is in many respects a parallel to Ennis' own dad -- ALSO isn't homophobic either must really be an eye-opener for Ennis.

I remember the discussion. However, I think this is not about being homophobic or not. I think it goes beyond that. If Jack's dad were to see two men kissing on the street, two complete strangers, for example, he might feel annoyed and may not approve it. But Jack is his son, his only son. Whatever problem they might have, and whatever mistake he might have made raising Jack that doesn't change the fact that he loved his son, and that love could make him more tolerant towards Jack's sexuality. He might even feel guilty about it, because sadly some people see homosexuality as some kind of disease or mental problem, especially people with little schooling as Jack's parents probably were.

On the other hand, I think Jack's dad was angry because Jack went away, and left them alone with a ranch to run. IMO he didn't want to let Ennis spread the ashes at BBM because he wanted his son to be home, not because he despised him so much to deny him his last wish. Those are my 2 cents.

[southendmd]

Interesting thread. Here's my two cents:

Since we BetterMostians like to find meaning in everything, it is hard to imagine Uncle Harold as being purely gratuitous. So, let's keep trying!

I'm particularly interested in word and name origins. We know Annie P is, with the rodeo meaning of twist, the "island in the sea" meaning to Ennis, etc.
Here's what I found on Harold (and there's not much):

The name Harold is from here-weald in Old English and means "army leader".

Famously, King Harold II of England lost and was killed in the Battle of Hastings in 1066, and people stopped naming babies Harold for several centuries.

Here's a real stretch, but I like it: Harold was Batman's aide, helping design, build and repair much of his equipment.  He was mute, originally a henchman for the Penguin, but he new Batman's true identity.



I like the idea that pneumonia is a disease of the wind, which is Jack's element, but, what then...?  Does this act as a preview to Jack's death? Pneumonia is like drowning, Jack (in the story) talks about drowning in the deep blue of the sky; later Lureen tells us he drowned in his own blood.

[serious crayons]

However, I think this is not about being homophobic or not. I think it goes beyond that. If Jack's dad were to see two men kissing on the street, two complete strangers, for example, he might feel annoyed and may not approve it.

Could be, Natali. We don't know much about him, and I wouldn't try to argue that, in his heart of hearts, OMT has no shred of homophobia. I guess in this case, as in the other thread, I was focusing less on analyzing OMT's psyche than figuring out what effect OMT's apparent acceptance of Jack's sexuality might have on Ennis, and what that might mean for storytelling purposes. As far as those issues go, what I see as most important in that scene is that OMT shows no outward sign, at least, of being a homophobe. Just a jerk.

If nothing else, Jack's parents' behavior may help explain why Ennis and Jack had such different attitudes toward their own sexuality.

Since we BetterMostians like to find meaning in everything, it is hard to imagine Uncle Harold as being purely gratuitous.

Thanks, southendmd! That's a succinct way of saying what I'm hoping to do.

I like the idea that pneumonia is a disease of the wind, which is Jack's element, but, what then...?  Does this act as a preview to Jack's death? Pneumonia is like drowning, Jack (in the story) talks about drowning in the deep blue of the sky; later Lureen tells us he drowned in his own blood.

Good observation! I like that alot.

Just playing around with the idea: Despite the fear of a probable death (in this case, Harold's), Jack opts to stay on the mountain (i.e., live with Ennis). And then Uncle Harold doesn't die after all. The fear of death in that case appears to have been overblown -- suggesting, maybe, that Ennis' fears of death if they lived together was overblown, too?

Oh, and I just thought of another one. There's nothin Jack can do to save Uncle Harold, either up here (living with Ennis) or down there (in society). In other words, death will come whether Jack lives with Ennis or not -- nothing Jack can do about it. And sure enough, it did come, and not because of his relationship with Ennis. Life is unpredictable.

That also might hint at why Jack mentions Harold's recovery before he mentions that they're going down -- to separate the two concepts, to place Harold's recovery within the time frame of their living together (if he mentioned it on the way down the mountain, it might seem kind of like Harold survived because they're going down, not despite their living together).

Also, speaking of names (another good idea, southendmd!), Harold sounds like "herald." The definitions for herald include (reading my dictionary) as a noun, "an official crier or messenger," "harbinger," "announcer," and as a verb, "to give notice." If Harold's bout with pneumonia is supposed to be a harbinger of Jack's death, then those definitions certainly would apply!

One other possible connection: if the Harold episode is supposed to, in a way, represent the link between them living together and Jack's death, then it also might be significant that his death scare coincides with Aguirre's spying. In other words, even though Jack's and Ennis' relationship was discovered by the "eyes of society" (Aguirre's binoculars), there was no death, at least in that case.

Another question: do you all think it's significant that this scene so strongly echoes the post-divorce scene? One brainstorming possibility -- people here have talked about the idea that this scene is where Jack starts, figuratively speaking, to die. And Uncle Harold had started to die in a literal sense.

I just thought of another echo between the scenes: in the first, Jack gets to choose between a relative and Ennis, and he chooses Ennis. In the second, Ennis chooses between relatives (his daughters) and Jack, and he chooses the relatives.

What are your thoughts, everybody?

[dly64]

I am getting a kick out of reading this thread. I agree with what many of you have said previously ....

I can't think of anything else, except perhaps what Mikaela says that it's to show that society still exists. On the other hand, it could also be to show that Jack wasn't as lonely as Ennis in terms of family. In spite of the problems he had with his dad, it seems like he had a pretty united family, considering that his mom went all the trouble to call his boss and tell him about Uncle Harold being sick.

I know someone also said (but I can’t find the quote) that the Uncle Harold scenario was simply a plot device to get Aguirre up on the mountain.

I agree with both of those interpretations.

A few things had come to me while reading this thread … Katherine, you pointed out the odd timing of Jack’s comment to Ennis … “Aguirre came by again. Said my uncle didn’t die after all …. He said to bring ‘em down.”  The timing on that is strange. I guess I have always thought that it was Jack’s way of delaying the bad news to Ennis. Isn’t that Jack’s typical way of communicating with Ennis? Jack has a way of leaving out bits of information that might be painful for Ennis to hear. Example: the motel scene … Jack conveniently leaves out that Aguirre knew full well that Jack and Ennis were having sex on BBM. Why? Because this would have caused Ennis even more anxiety and paranoia. Ennis believed that Jack “brushed over” the truth (which was confirmed during the painful lake scene confrontation). Jack was correct in handling Ennis in this way … because when the reality of the situation was revealed, Ennis collapsed.

 
Another thing that has been brought up here is how little we know about both Jack’s and Ennis’ families.

What we know about Jack: his parents are both alive and he has an Uncle Harold. We can surmise that Jack is an only child. He is married to Lureen (who also appears to be an only child) and has a son (who, too, is an only child). He has a SOB father-in-law and an uptight mother-in-law.

What we know about Ennis: his parents died in a car accident. He has a sister who married a “roughneck” and a brother who got married when Ennis was 19. At that point, Ennis was kicked out of the house. Ennis marries Alma who has a sister … but we know nothing else about her family …. and he has two daughters.

There are many contrasts between Jack and Ennis … this being one. We know a lot more about Jack’s extended family than we do about Ennis’. This is simply one more example of Ennis’ isolative existence.

I love this quote:

The movie wisely never steps back to look at the larger picture, or deliver the "message." It is specifically the story of these men, this love. It stays in closeup. That's how Jack and Ennis see it.


Had all of these family members been too prominent, the focus of this story would have been lost. We are given just enough information about the world around them.

[nakymaton]

I guess I have always thought that it was Jack’s way of delaying the bad news to Ennis. Isn’t that Jack’s typical way of communicating with Ennis?

Yes. And Jack especially tends to put off talking about Serious Relationship Things. ("I swear I didn't know we was going to get into this again... I guess I did. Red-lined it all the way.") Or the half-lie, half-truth, half-joke about the ranch foreman's wife before "Truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

Also, there's something about the rhythm of the dialogue there that I like, apart from its meaning (literal or symbolic). But that's beside it all. Sometimes I just like the way words sound.

I think it's got to be significant that Uncle Harold survived his disease of the lungs. It feels a bit like fate, or something, with the earlier comments about Jack not being able to do anything about it, wherever he was.

About the echoes of the post-divorce scene: in the post-divorce scene, Ennis is visibly worried about being seen simply talking to Jack. Aguirre does see Jack and Ennis, having sex even, but Ennis never knows about it.