The true reason

[Scott6373]

I was having a dicussion with some friends about BBM last Friday night.  It was  mix of stright and gay, older and younger (at least young to me), married, single, etc.  As the discussion went along, we got to why it had such a profound effect on so many.  I've never really found a universal answer to that, but as we all talked, this thought started to crystalize.  Could it be that it is so effecting because we are jealous.  Jealous of the kind of love that Jack and Ennis shared.  That perhaps (though we would never admit it), we will never know the feeling of needing and wanting someone so badly that you can't even breathe.  Just a thought for discussion.  Our discussion got pretty heated.

[ednbarby]

Interesting thought.  I think that's certainly one of the reasons it's affected many people so profoundly.  But I also know that some of us have actually experienced that kind of love and have lost it.  So we relate to it on that level.

The best answer I've heard was something Eric (sferic) said when I was in San Francisco - it's probably been posted here, too (and probably by me, come to think of it) in some form.  And that's that it affects those of us it's affected so strongly because we all were at a place in our lives in which we were emotionally ready to receive it when we first saw it.  Where that place is varies from person to person.  Some of us want that kind of all-consuming passion and love and have never experienced it.  Some of us have experienced it and lost it and are in a place where we're especially missing it.  Some of us have been denying an essential part of ourselves to ourselves for a long time and were ready for a catalyst of change.  Some of us have a dear friend who is gay and still in the closet and were ready to have the pain he's been experiencing his whole life illuminated fully for us.

In one form or another, I think we were all living our lives in chains and were ready to be handed the key we've had all along.  I picked my signature quote because it resonated so much with this movie on so many levels.  I think maybe the answer lies in it, too.

[Aussie Chris]

I'm sure I understand why this thought resulted in a heated discussion.  The accusation (as some might conclude) of jealousy can imply a certain amount of selfish resentment related to missing out on that sort of love, and I would agree with them that within this context it is unfair.  In response to this you could argue that jealousy can also be analogous to a "longing", but the need for the qualification makes me think that "jealousy" is not quite right.  If this were true, then the many other films that have a profound love within them would affect people equally: was anyone so moved by for so long by Titanic or (dare I say) Pearl Harbour???

No, the more I think about it, although many of us may dream of (or remember) a love as profound as Jack & Ennis' and this may be a contributing factor, I don't think it's the reason we are so affected.  I actually think it's a "trick" of the method of storytelling that was employed to suck us into the story and at a very deep level and to take on the emotions of the characters.  Specifically, and in its simplest level, when we first watch BBM we see it mostly from the perspective of Ennis (even if we are attracted or identify with other characters more so) and as we progress through the film we form an opinion of what the characters are thinking and feeling.  But then the dozy embrace comes along and we realise that this was a deep love that they shared, and then the very next scene is Ennis receiving the post card with deceased on it.  The affect of this is that we have a "oh my god they were so much in love" thought that is quickly replaced with a "oh my god he's dead" thought.  We become Ennis finally realising what he had, but it was too late for both Ennis and us also.  The cool thing about this though is that we get to watch the film again and again and rather than spoiling it (because we know what's going to happen), we now see the relationship with open eyes and we can see the truth of the depth of love that was always there but somehow we missed it...  just as Ennis did!

This is one film that nails this technique with such accuracy (and subtlety) that we can spend months analysing it and enjoying it and we never feel patronised or betrayed (as opposed to the Sixth Sense which does this mainly for shock value).  But back to the first viewing of BBM, the purpose of the "trick" was so that we could identify with Ennis' feeling of loss, because he had perfect love and lost it before he knew what was happening, and we all had that same experience while watching it.  This is the true genius of Ang Lee and the writers: audience buy-in and genuine emotional involvement.

[Meryl]

We become Ennis finally realising what he had, but it was too late for both Ennis and us also.

Chris, your whole comment is right on, but I think this is the heart of it.  The chains that Barb mentions function as blinders as well, causing Ennis to keep himself in the dark about what Jack means in his life.  Add to that the tragic fact that Ennis bought into the poisonous view of his society and allowed it to dictate his behavior and his view of himself, and you have a devastating situation that no feeling person can be unaffected by. 

[Scott6373]

While I could agree that "jealousy" may not be the appropriate term for everyone, it is, in fact, the one I meant.  The ensuing debate (at my gathering), was fairly split.  Quite a few ponderred the concept of jealousy and envy, and admitted that yes they were...I'm so glad I wasn't with them on the drive home with their partners.  To be honest, Im really not envious of the portrayed love between the two men.  If I had been either one fo them, I would found the nearest and highest bridge to jump off of.

[serious crayons]

it's a "trick" of the method of storytelling that was employed to suck us into the story and at a very deep level and to take on the emotions of the characters.

Chris makes a number of excellent points, especially the sentence above -- I think the power of BBM has much to do with effective storytelling. I also think there are a few other "tricks" in addition to the ones Chris mentioned.

One is that we're led to see Jack's and Ennnis' love as so great it's almost beyond the realm of ordinary human experience -- it's not a regular old pedestrian love like most people have, where you meet and date for a while  and eventually maybe get more serious and blah blah blah. We are meant to see Ennis and Jack as almost superhuman when they're together -- soulmates, yin and yang, a force of nature, a pairing that belongs outside the confines of society and civilzation. Of course, there are practical reasons they exist outside society, mainly society's homophobia. But their association with mountains and water and sky and trees also serves to make their love seem more powerful and genuine and deep and pure.

In my view, another factor is we see how much each gives up to keep the love going -- in Ennis' case, it's being in love with Jack despite all his homophobia and shame and fear of being outed. For Jack, it's waiting for Ennis despite his disappointment and waning hope, missing Ennis so much he can hardly stand it, even after 20 years. They both struggle and sacrifice and suffer on behalf of their love (I know many would argue that Ennis doesn't sacrifice enough, but actually for him it's a lot). The value and depth of their love is proved by what they are willing to give up for it.

Another storytelling trick is subtlety and restraint and ambiguity. Because the film doesn't always tell us what characters are thinking or why they behave the way they do, we're drawn into their heads, get more involved, empathize with them at a deeper level. Most movies go out of their way to show in no uncertain terms what their characters are feeling. Viewers have it easier, but they see the characters from a more objective distance. For example, take the scene where Jack doesn't turn to watch Ennis bathing. Most movies would show him quickly glancing over and trying not to be noticable about it. If BBM did that, it would tell us something -- but it would be something we already know at that point (he's attracted to Ennis), so we'd understand what he's thinking yet we'd stay detached. The fact that Jack doesn't turn doesn't make us think he's not interested -- we already know he is. We have to make a greater effort to figure out why he does the opposite of what we'd expect, which makes us feel what he's feeling (temptation, self-restraint, frustration, bottled-up lust, whatever) at a deeper level. That same process happens again and again, every time a character acts ambiguously, which obviously is a lot, given that after all this time we're still discussing and arguing about it. What is Ennis thinking when he's eating pie in the bus station? Why didn't he respond to Jack's "miss you so much" comment? How does Jack feel about Randall's flirting? Was Jack really going to quit Ennis? The only way to answer these questions is by trying to understand the characters at a really deep level.

Compare some of these qualities to "Titanic" (that's the easy counter-example, being the other big popular recent romantic love story). Rose gives up something to go for Jack -- wealth and social status and her marriage -- but those sacrifices aren't as great as the ones made by Ennis' or BBM's Jack. We can see from the beginning she doesn't really value those things anyway. And Jack's only sacrifice to be with her is whatever risk he's taking of trouble from her husband.

Does Rose and Jack's love seem to exist outside normal human experience? Not really. It's outside traditional social rules. And though they do seem well suited for each other, there's nothing really superhuman about them as a couple (of course, they're only together for a couple of days, compared to 20 years for Jack and Ennis).

Is their behavior ambiguous? Well, if Rose and Jack are feeling anything beyond what they're acting out onscreen, it sure went over my head. Their emotions seem pretty clear and obvious. We might like the characters fine, but we don't empathize with them as deeply as we do Jack and Ennis.

And it's sad in the end when Titanic Jack dies. But unlike Ennis, Rose has nothing to regret -- on the contrary, her life afterward is much better for having met Jack, so their story ends semi-happily.

To all that I would add that Heath and Jake do a much better job of conveying passion and love than Leo and Kate do.

Of course, none of this explains why only WE appreciate these qualities about BBM when many others don't. That's still a mystery ...

[ednbarby]

Of course, none of this explains why only WE appreciate these qualities about BBM when many others don't. That's still a mystery ...

Oh, hell, let's admit it:  We're just better than those other people.   

[jpwagoneer1964]

Of course, none of this explains why only WE appreciate these qualities about BBM when many others don't. That's still a mystery ...

Could be our emotions run close to the surface. I know I would descrobe myself that way.

[Marty]

I was having a dicussion with some friends about BBM last Friday night.  It was  mix of stright and gay, older and younger (at least young to me), married, single, etc.  As the discussion went along, we got to why it had such a profound effect on so many.  I've never really found a universal answer to that, but as we all talked, this thought started to crystalize.  Could it be that it is so effecting because we are jealous.  Jealous of the kind of love that Jack and Ennis shared.  That perhaps (though we would never admit it), we will never know the feeling of needing and wanting someone so badly that you can't even breathe.  Just a thought for discussion.  Our discussion got pretty heated.

I don't know why it had such an effect on so many, but I can say why it had an effect on me.  I'm a straight woman, in a relationship that transcends anything I could have expected.  I waited a long time for him, and had nearly given up on love when I met him.  We've been married nearly 16 years now, and we both tend to get bogged down with bills, housework, parenting, schedules, work, etc.  The movie reminded me what a gift it is to be able to spend my life with someone I love, and who loves me so completely.  As strange as it sounds, I saw us in Jack and Ennis, and I was determined not to let my husband die without knowing how much I treasure him.

(I've rewritten the preceeding paragraph 5 times to try to make it not so schmaltzy, but it's a lost cause.  I just can't.)

Marty

[ednbarby]

I don't know why it had such an effect on so many, but I can say why it had an effect on me.  I'm a straight woman, in a relationship that transcends anything I could have expected.  I waited a long time for him, and had nearly given up on love when I met him.  We've been married nearly 16 years now, and we both tend to get bogged down with bills, housework, parenting, schedules, work, etc.  The movie reminded me what a gift it is to be able to spend my life with someone I love, and who loves me so completely.  As strange as it sounds, I saw us in Jack and Ennis, and I was determined not to let my husband die without knowing how much I treasure him.

(I've rewritten the preceeding paragraph 5 times to try to make it not so schmaltzy, but it's a lost cause.  I just can't.)

It's not schmaltzy at all, Marty - it's lovely.  And JP (Mark, is it?), that's not true in my case, sorry to say.  My emotions are welled so deep down inside of me that people who don't know me well sometimes describe me as cold - a little self-preservation technique I learned as a kid and unfortunately it's set in now.  I *hate* manipulative tear-jerkers in the movies and on TV - they actually make me mad.  I don't cry at movies.  Ever.  Hell, I don't cry.  And the second time I saw this movie, I thought I was going to start hyperventillating I was weeping so hard in the theater and at the same time trying so hard to stifle it.

For me - I think it was just what I needed (and still do, though not quite as much as before) at the time.  I'm starting to find that with other movies as well.  Movies that rocked my friends' worlds years ago and that made me just think (gasp!) "Yeah, it was well-done and all, but nothing to write home to Mother about" now move me profoundly on repeat viewings.  And movies that years ago made me go "WOW" now just make me go "Eh."  (These are really eloquent thoughts, huh?)

[serious crayons]

Nice story, Marty! It's great to see someone here so happy.

Movies that rocked my friends' worlds years ago and that made me just think (gasp!) "Yeah, it was well-done and all, but nothing to write home to Mother about" now move me profoundly on repeat viewings.

A friend of mine was recommending "What the (bleep) do we know" right and left when it came out. I went and saw it -- for me it was a BIG ehhhhhhh. I just thought it was kind of stupid (sorry to anyone here who liked it). Now I feel belated empathy for her, because I know exactly how she feels (even though I still disagree about "What the bleep" -- and also even though as far as I know she still hasn't seen BBM).

(I also feel a bit guilty, because when my friend told me she was recommending "What the" to everybody, I responded that the movie I was recommending to everybody was "Cellular." Which I actually did love. But not in a profoundly life-altering way.)

[dly64]

One is that we're led to see Jack's and Ennnis' love as so great it's almost beyond the realm of ordinary human experience -- it's not a regular old pedestrian love like most people have, where you meet and date for a while  and eventually maybe get more serious and blah blah blah. We are meant to see Ennis and Jack as almost superhuman when they're together -- soulmates, yin and yang, a force of nature, a pairing that belongs outside the confines of society and civilzation. Of course, there are practical reasons they exist outside society, mainly society's homophobia. But their association with mountains and water and sky and trees also serves to make their love seem more powerful and genuine and deep and pure.

In my view, another factor is we see how much each gives up to keep the love going -- in Ennis' case, it's being in love with Jack despite all his homophobia and shame and fear of being outed. For Jack, it's waiting for Ennis despite his disappointment and waning hope, missing Ennis so much he can hardly stand it, even after 20 years. They both struggle and sacrifice and suffer on behalf of their love (I know many would argue that Ennis doesn't sacrifice enough, but actually for him it's a lot). The value and depth of their love is proved by what they are willing to give up for it.

Another storytelling trick is subtlety and restraint and ambiguity. Because the film doesn't always tell us what characters are thinking or why they behave the way they do, we're drawn into their heads, get more involved, empathize with them at a deeper level. Most movies go out of their way to show in no uncertain terms what their characters are feeling. Viewers have it easier, but they see the characters from a more objective distance. For example, take the scene where Jack doesn't turn to watch Ennis bathing. Most movies would show him quickly glancing over and trying not to be noticable about it. If BBM did that, it would tell us something -- but it would be something we already know at that point (he's attracted to Ennis), so we'd understand what he's thinking yet we'd stay detached. The fact that Jack doesn't turn doesn't make us think he's not interested -- we already know he is. We have to make a greater effort to figure out why he does the opposite of what we'd expect, which makes us feel what he's feeling (temptation, self-restraint, frustration, bottled-up lust, whatever) at a deeper level. That same process happens again and again, every time a character acts ambiguously, which obviously is a lot, given that after all this time we're still discussing and arguing about it. What is Ennis thinking when he's eating pie in the bus station? Why didn't he respond to Jack's "miss you so much" comment? How does Jack feel about Randall's flirting? Was Jack really going to quit Ennis? The only way to answer these questions is by trying to understand the characters at a really deep level.

I agree with both you and Chris. Both of you have expressed yourselves beautifully and I think you have hit the nail on the head. The ambiguity of the film is a major factor. We, the viewers, are left to interpret what has just happened  …. we bring our own life experiences and our own POV. Why else are these BBM boards so popular? Had this film been a run-of-the-mill predictable love story, there would be no discussion, period. Everything about this film is subtle. I think it is important to also note that this story has a realism that is not present in many films today. Nothing about Jack and Ennis’ relationship is easy. All of the pain, disappointment, frustration, etc. is palpable. IMO, everything Jack and Ennis feels, I feel too. I am always spent by the end of the film. I don’t recall any other story that has impacted me in this way. 

[mvansand76]

I think it is also because everybody has something of both Jack and Ennis in them. The way they deal with their relationship, with their love is so touching, and it's so real, everybody in some way deals with the problems that they are dealing with. Jack always wanting Ennis to be happy (the pleaser) and Ennis fighting against the feelings he is feeling for Jack.

[Aussie Chris]

I think the power of BBM has much to do with effective storytelling... <snip>

All of this is simply brilliant Katherine!  I can't add a single thing to make it better!  You have so completely (and succinctly) summarised many of the most important discussions we've had here at BetterMost.  Of course I emphatically agree with everything you say in this post.  How far we've all come in our understanding of this amazing film, I feel so fortunate (and proud) to be a part of it - even if my friends and family have given up being concerned about me and my continued obsession with BBM (not sure what to think about that).
 

[dly64]

How far we've all come in our understanding of this amazing film, I feel so fortunate (and proud) to be a part of it - even if my friends and family have given up being concerned about me and my continued obsession with BBM (not sure what to think about that).

Ditto … although my friends and family think I have totally lost my beanie! They absolutely don’t get why this film has grabbed me the way that it has. When I try to explain, there is absolutely nothing I can articulate that even begins to express the “why.” I just know that it has.

sfericsf also said, “What you bring to the movie is what you take out of it.” I convinced several people to see the film; three cried. For the characters, yes, but their low startle points were already set: one had a father with Alzheimer’s, another had a daughter who’d just come out, the third had an uncle who died from AIDS.

I agree. It is nice that you have people who have been affected by this beautiful film. I have no one. I live in a Bible belt, conservative state. That is why I am thankful for a forum like BetterMost. It is refreshing to communicate with others who are also passionate.

[Momof2]

I agree. It is nice that you have people who have been affected by this beautiful film. I have no one. I live in a Bible belt, conservative state. That is why I am thankful for a forum like BetterMost. It is refreshing to communicate with others who are also passionate.

[/quote]

I live in a town that has more Baptist churches than gas stations or resturants.  Very "biblical" ways of thinking.  I do not share BBM with anyone here.  A few people have seen it were I work.  Just a quick mention.  No live shattering or changing moments for them.  The day I bought the DVD the girl working the counter said Oh I heard that is good.  I have not seen it.  I told her it was the best movie I had ever seen and that it was well worth watching.  The only cinema here in town would not show BBM.  Very anti-gay here.  The thing that is strange to me is that most people that are bigots are bigots about ever social "norm".  But there is a lot of interracial dating and children in this town.  The people in this town are "hill" people.  It is weird how some unacceptable things are accepted and others are not. 

To me BBM is my little "secret".  It is something that has changed my life and my way of thinking.  I am so glad that I saw it and found this forum.  It is like a family.  I like the fact that I can talk to other people that love Jack and Ennis like I do.  Thank you all for being a part of this wonderful journey.

[serious crayons]

It's my secret, too, though not necessarily because of homophobia or conservatism in my environment. I live in a very liberal suburb of big blue-state city (Chicago), I moved here recently from a very liberal blue-state city (Minneapolis), and my friends are all fairly liberal and presumably pretty unhomophobic.

The reason I keep it secret is mainly because I know people would think it's way too weird to spend seven months obsessing about a movie to the extent I have. If it were Titanic, they would think it just about as weird. Hell, I think it's weird myself! 

That's why I'm glad to know all you guys -- you may be weird in that one way, too, but in other respects you all seem very sensible and intelligent and normal, which I find hugely reassuring.

[dly64]

Ah, but there’s the irony--they wouldn’t think that obsession as weird as Brokeaholism. One critic said about Titanic, “50,000,000 teenage girls can’t be wrong.”

I remember another critic saying about BBM that “this movie is aimed at women between <nn> and <nn> who like to watch two hunky young actors smooch and talk about their feelings.”

Errrrrr ... I guess that critic doesn't get it. Can I surmise that this person was a homophobic male?

[serious crayons]

Ah, but there’s the irony--they wouldn’t think that obsession as weird as Brokeaholism. One critic said about Titanic, “50,000,000 teenage girls can’t be wrong.”

I remember another critic saying about BBM that “this movie is aimed at women between <nn> and <nn> who like to watch two hunky young actors smooch and talk about their feelings.”

Well, that would make a Titanic obsession weirder, because I definitely don't fit into the teenage-girl demographic. But the BBM demo -- depending on the <nns> -- sounds like it fits me to a T! 

No, actually, I suppose that's not the first image to pop into most straight people's heads when they think of the average BBM fan. So I suppose even relatively unhomophobic straight people who don't "get" it might raise more of an eyebrow at my Brokeback obsession than they would at Titanic. But believe me, if I were obsessed with Titanic, you can bet I'd be hiding it!

If only I were obsessed with, oh, I don't know ... "Citizen Kane" or "The Manchurian Candidate" or something. Maybe I could be more open about those.

Errrrrr ... I guess that critic doesn't get it. Can I surmise that this person was a homophobic male?

Uh-oh! Diane, your post came in as I was writing this! Why do you surmise that? Well, I mean, of course, you're right that the critic apparently doesn't get why the movie is great in so many ways. It's a vast oversimplification, at best. And not quite the respectful tone I prefer people use in discussing BBM.

On the other hand, that description would probably fit a lot of people on this board ...

[dly64]

Uh-oh! Diane, your post came in as I was writing this! Why do you surmise that? Well, I mean, of course, you're right that the critic apparently doesn't get why the movie is great in so many ways. It's a vast oversimplification, at best. On the other hand, that description would probably fit a lot of people on this board ...

Very true. It just sounds like a critic who would describe this movie as the "gay cowboy movie." Ironically, when I first wrote my note, I acknowledged that I, being a female, enjoyed the two hunky men smooching. But, I changed my mind .... Hmmmm ... I guess I was trying to avoid acknowledging that, yes ... these guys are hot, and so are the love scenes. 

[Meryl]

I find it funny that the critic said the hunky guys were "talking about their feelings."  If they had actually done that, the movie might have had a different ending! 

[serious crayons]

I find it funny that the critic said the hunky guys were "talking about their feelings."  If they had actually done that, the movie might have had a different ending! 

Good point. A better way to put it might have been "expressing their feelings." Speaking of which, I've posted this before, but if anyone's interested here's an excellent essay by Meghan Daum in the LA Times discussing that very issue: that women like this movie because, for once, men show emotion.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-daum7jan07,0,3054088.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

[nakymaton]

Hmmmm. I would say it's more like "men having very strong feelings but not being overly dramatic about them."

And as for the "women between ages <nn> and <nn> who like to watch hunky young actors smooch"... ummm, I know a number of people who fit that description who saw BBM, thought it was a good movie, cried, and moved on to other interests. Some of them saw BBM more than once. Some of them discussed it quite a bit for a month or two. But it didn't push their buttons as much as it pushed mine.

[serious crayons]

But mention Brokeback and get shocked silence, quizzical stares and “Why did you go see that? Do you know someone who’s gay?”

Wow. They think you have to know a gay person just to go SEE the movie? Though the answer would be, "Of course, and you probably do, too."

By the way, the <nns> were 25 and 50.

That would include me. But from what I've seen on this board, he could have stretched the range quite a bit at either end.

[nakymaton]

Okay, maybe not Titanic. If you want a mainstream obsession--Star Trek. You can speak languages that didn’t exist 40 years ago, name your pet mosquito James Tiberius and quibble over the number of wrinkles someone put into his/her face makeup. The “normal” world will hardly notice.

Have you ever watched Trekkies? Out of the entire fannish contingent, the only people who were embarrassed to show their faces and voices were the women who read and wrote slash fan fiction.

For what it's worth.

[dly64]

By the way, the <nns> were 25 and 50.

Okay ... I fit into that demographic as well. But, Katherine is right .... it could have strecthed much further (in both directions).

[ednbarby]

“Though what 'Brokeback Mountain' amounts to, in effect, is female-targeted emotional pornography...”

I'm sorry (not really, actually), but what a dumbass.  Is he talking about Brokeback Mountain or Under the Tuscan Sun?  Good grief.

[serious crayons]

I'm sorry (not really, actually), but what a dumbass.  Is he talking about Brokeback Mountain or Under the Tuscan Sun?  Good grief.

Barb, it's a she: Meghan Daum, an essayist and lately, apparently, a columnist for the LA Times (this appeared on their op-ed page). She's writing from her own perspective. That is, that's how she responded to it (though I think she's being a tiny bit tongue-in-cheek in that quote).

Daum -- who is a good writer, BTW; I've got a collection of her essays -- focuses on how women appreciate the movie's emotional aspects, doesn't talk much about its other qualities. But to give her the benefit of the doubt, she seems to have liked the movie a lot and that probably wasn't the only reason why. See the link above, if you're interested in reading the whole piece.

You're right, that probably is an accurate description of Under the Tuscan Sun. Didn't work for me, though. Where were the hot young actors smooching? 

[Momof2]

I definitely do not consider BBM porn.  Obviously he has not seen any good porn.  I do know gay people but I do not think that is why this movie haunts me.  It touched me as a human not necessarily as a woman.  I would have liked to have seen a lot more of the two hunky actors smooching.  Maybe our hearts and minds would not be so obsessed with Jack and Ennis.  Who cares what he thinks. 

[nakymaton]

“Though what 'Brokeback Mountain' amounts to, in effect, is female-targeted emotional pornography...”

Maybe she should have called it "emotional erotica."

[serious crayons]

Maybe she should have called it "emotional erotica."

That works. Though there's a physical aspect to it, too ... 

[dly64]

I thought the article was very good. And, after reading the quote in context, I think it's apropos.

[ednbarby]

Oopsie.  She.  Sorry about that.

I just read the whole article.  Twice.  And I still don't think she gets it.  I don't think she misses it completely, either.  But it's like she's missing the target but hitting the (very large) tree.

The emoting Jack and Ennis do, first of all, is practically never in front of one another - the exceptions being "Sometimes I miss you so much..." and Ennis' breakdown at the lake.  So if anything, we straight women are only reminded of our own screwed-up relationships with certain straight men and how those bastards never *really* talked to us, either.

How can we see anything we long for in the way they don't talk or emote to one another?  Sure, we see what we long for in their passion and deep love for each other in the infamous tent, reunion, and flashback scenes.  But gay men must experience that on the same or similar level, too.  And she's not talking about that - she's talking about Ennis' vomiting and Jack's crying.  That they do *alone.*

To me, she seems to be saying that we straight women love the film because it shows men feeling things for each other that we wished they felt (and showed) for us.  I just think that's crap.  (Now, if she were saying it's because it shows two *particular* men feeling things for each other that we wish one or both of them would feel specifically for us, that'd be another story.  )

Seriously, first of all, she seems to have missed the fact that these guys almost never show what they're feeling to each other directly.  What good is our guys feeling that amount of passion for us if they almost never tell us about it or show it to us?  Yeah.  I *so want* to go through that again.   

Yes, I'm on a hair-trigger about such things lately, I know, but I can't help but see her view as being more than a little biased.  I mean, why should this movie be any more of a draw for straight women in general than any other beautiful love story ever filmed?  I honestly don't think it is.  If it were, every red-blooded woman we all know who usually likes such stories would have seen it by now.  And every one who has would be a Brokie.

[serious crayons]

OK, now that the Meghan Daum article is getting all controversial, I had to go back and read it. I've read it before, but not for months.

First of all, remember that she wrote this in January, not long after the movie came out. She had apparently seen it only once. And her objective was not to thoroughly analyze Jack and Ennis to see if they're good boyfriend material. As far as I can tell, what she was trying to do is explain why a movie that many people expected to appeal mainly to gay men could be equally appealing to women.

The emoting Jack and Ennis do, first of all, is practically never in front of one another - the exceptions being "Sometimes I miss you so much..." and Ennis' breakdown at the lake. So if anything, we straight women are only reminded of our own screwed-up relationships with certain straight men and how those bastards never *really* talked to us, either.

Well, I'd add the reunion and TS2, but that's beside the point. I agree with you, Barb, that they don't communicate their feelings well to each other.

But I don't think Meghan Daum is saying they do, necessarily. Her main point, as I understand it, is that they show romantic emotions period, when we rarely see straight male movie characters or maybe even real-life men do that.

IMO, she's right. How many straight men in movies can you name who, after a fight with their girlfriend, stagger into an alley and collapse in despair? I can count the number on zero fingers. Crying as they drive away from a girlfriend who has rejected them? I might have to use a few fingers, but probably not a whole hand. Waiting all day with their face pressed against the window for their girlfriend to show up? I've still got plenty of leftover fingers.

In real life, men undoubtedly do those things from time to time, but they're not really known for it. So yeah, here Daum is using a cliche. But it's a cliche with a grain of truth. I think women do, as a general rule, get more emotional about their relationships. Here, Jack and Ennis are getting emotional about their romantic relationship -- they're not expressing it to each other, but they're expressing it to the audience.

(Now, if she were saying it's because it shows two *particular* men feeling things for each other that we wish one or both of them would feel specifically for us, that'd be another story.  )

Well, I'd say she does kind of hint at that, too. 

I can't help but see her view as being more than a little biased.  I mean, why should this movie be any more of a draw for straight women in general than any other beautiful love story ever filmed?  I honestly don't think it is.

It may not actually be more of a draw for straight women than any other love story -- obviously many more straight women saw "Titanic." And for some straight women, BBM would be harder to like for an number of reasons. But I don't think Daum was going so far as to say straight women like it more than any other movie; I think she was simply explaining why straight women like it at all.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it should be more of a draw, becaue it's much better than any other love story I've ever seen. Not only because of this factor, but it's one of the reasons. So I guess my view is more than a little biased, too. But then, we already knew that! 

[ednbarby]

OK, now that the Meghan Daum article is getting all controversial, I had to go back and read it. I've read it before, but not for months.

First of all, remember that she wrote this in January, not long after the movie came out. She had apparently seen it only once. And her objective was not to thoroughly analyze Jack and Ennis to see if they're good boyfriend material. As far as I can tell, what she was trying to do is explain why a movie that many people expected to appeal mainly to gay men could be equally appealing to women.

Well, I'd add the reunion and TS2, but that's beside the point. I agree with you, Barb, that they don't communicate their feelings well to each other.

But I don't think Meghan Daum is saying they do, necessarily. Her main point, as I understand it, is that they show romantic emotions period, when we rarely see straight male movie characters or maybe even real-life men do that.

IMO, she's right. How many straight men in movies can you name who, after a fight with their girlfriend, stagger into an alley and collapse in despair? I can count the number on zero fingers. Crying as they drive away from a girlfriend who has rejected them? I might have to use a few fingers, but probably not a whole hand. Waiting all day with their face pressed against the window for their girlfriend to show up? I've still got plenty of leftover fingers.

I understand her point about men.  But I think she misses the point of the movie.  Ennis collapses in an alley not only because he's overwhelmed with romantic feelings, but because he's been forced most of his life to repress romantic feelings so far down in himself that it actually affects his physical characteristics.  Ennis waits with his face pressed to a window all day for his lover not only because he wants him so much, but because he's been in a passionless, loveless marriage for four years because society and he himself convinced himself he had  to.

I do understand her point.  But I think she's trivializing the movie and its impact by making it.

And I have seen movies where straight male characters act that romantic.  To name a few:  Casablanca, Gone With the Wind, The English Patient, Shakespeare in Love, An Officer and a Gentelman, Pretty Woman, Say Anything, Witness, Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, Emma, The Graduate, ..., I could go on all day.  The kicker is that they're *allowed* to act that romantic - audiences cheer when they do.  I'm just saying there is more of a universal appeal to this movie than one that is just for gay men and straight women.  I think anyone open-minded enough to see it can help but be drawn in a) by the storytelling and b) by the universal truths about what the damage denial does.  I guess it just irritated me that she thought the answer was so black and white when we all know there's so much more to it than that.


[/quote]

[serious crayons]

Barb, I guess we just read the piece really differently. The way I read it, it's an op-ed column examining one aspect of a much-talked-about and much-misunderstood movie, trying to explain why -- contrary to popular belief at the time -- straight women might find it as appealing as everybody already assumes gay men do.

I didn't think of Daum as intending to present a thorough analysis of the whole movie. She's not writing a review.  So she doesn't try to interpret the movie's overall themes. She's a fairly astute person, judging from other things I've read of hers -- her background is as a novelist and literary essayist, writing for the New Yorker and other publications -- so I'm guessing she understood them, but who knows.

For the purposes of this piece, she's not concerned with why Ennis collapses in an alley or waits by the window. If she were discussing the plot, she'd probably mention his emotional repression and loveless marriage (and many other things). I don't think she's claiming that Ennis' expression of emotion shows he is good at communication or mentally healthy. As I read it, all she's saying is that it's refreshing to see men in movies show emotion, period.

And I have seen movies where straight male characters act that romantic.  To name a few:  Casablanca, Gone With the Wind, The English Patient, Shakespeare in Love, An Officer and a Gentelman, Pretty Woman, Say Anything, Witness, Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, Emma, The Graduate

Yes, those movies feature straight men acting romantic. But do they act as emotional? Do they collapse and vomit in alleys? True, they love their romantic partner. They show longing and tenderness and sadness, go to great lengths on behalf of the woman, etc. But as a rule (and I realize there are many exceptions) they stay "strong" and in control, rarely distraught and vulnerable.

As a kid, I was a huge fan of Gone With the Wind (before I got old enough to be horrified by its racism). Rhett Butler cries only once in that movie, and that's when Scarlett, after a fall down the stairs while pregnant, is hovering on the brink of death. Apparently Clark Gable came close to quitting the movie over having to do that scene. Olivia de Havilland said, in an interview after his death, that she had to talk him into staying. He didn't think it was masculine to cry.

In all the other pivotal moments, Rhett remains stoic, often even bemused. The one other time he gets really emotional -- when he gets angry over Scarlett's continuing attraction to Ashley -- he expresses it by getting drunk and commiting spousal rape (though afterward she doesn't mind). At the end of the movie, Rhett is dry-eyed and Scarlett is sobbing.

Anyway, though, we already know that those other movies appeal to women. Nobody has to write an op-ed piece explaining why. I think Meghan Daum intended simply to show why BBM does, too.

I'm just saying there is more of a universal appeal to this movie than one that is just for gay men and straight women.  I think anyone open-minded enough to see it can help but be drawn in a) by the storytelling and b) by the universal truths about what the damage denial does.

I absolutely agree about the storytelling and universal truths. But I don't think Daum contradicts this; it just wasn't what she was trying to discuss in this particular piece.

[ednbarby]

That's cool, Katherine.  No worries.  It being an op-ed piece, she can state whatever opinion she'd like, of course.  And I do agree with it to some extent.  I think it's natural for straight women to enjoy seeing vulnerability in men on a certain level - it makes us feel closer to them in a way we don't usually get to.  I get that.  I just think her choice of words and arguments in a couple of cases kinda turned me off is all.

[serious crayons]

I just think her choice of words and arguments in a couple of cases kinda turned me off is all.

OK, that happens. No worries here, either! People read things different ways. I just wanted to explain what I thought she was trying to do. There are already enough idiots out there dissing our movie, so I figured, here's somebody praising it in the country's second-biggest newspaper, maybe we should give her a break.

Fun debating it, though! It's an interesting topic. One of so many this movie inspires.

 

[dly64]

This is way OT … but I had to mention something, just because I am a lover of films from the 1920’s, 1930’s and 1940’s. (BBM is really the first contemporary movie I have loved …. or at least this degree … period.)

As a kid, I was a huge fan of Gone With the Wind (before I got old enough to be horrified by its racism). Rhett Butler cries only once in that movie, and that's when Scarlett, after a fall down the stairs while pregnant, is hovering on the brink of death. Apparently Clark Gable came close to quitting the movie over having to do that scene. Olivia de Havilland said, in an interview after his death, that she had to talk him into staying. He didn't think it was masculine to cry.

In all the other pivotal moments, Rhett remains stoic, often even bemused. The one other time he gets really emotional -- when he gets angry over Scarlett's continuing attraction to Ashley -- he expresses it by getting drunk and commiting spousal rape (though afterward she doesn't mind). At the end of the movie, Rhett is dry-eyed and Scarlett is sobbing.

Just humor me on this, please. I know this was not your intent, but I wanted to share this anyway.

I wanted to just say a few things about GWTW and other movies from this time period. I try to look at the racism in a few different ways ….
1.   The world view was very different at that time
2.   There was no such thing as political correctness
3.   Rarely were African-Americans represented in a light that emphasized their intelligence. I am not saying that was a good thing. On the contrary,It was a really horrible thing.  I am just saying that it is the way it was …) There were a couple of exceptions like “Imitation of Life” in both the 1930s and 1950s versions. The change really started in the late 50’s with the brilliant Sidney Poitier who refused to play stereotypical black roles.

It was this movie, GWTW, that had the first black actor/ actress to win an Oscar (to even be nominated, as a matter of fact). The fabulous Hattie McDaniel was the first to break through that barrier. It was no small feat since it was during a time where racism was very prevalent. I get a kick out of Hattie because she was a strong and opinionated woman. She used to say that she got a lot of grief from the black community because she often played housekeepers or cooks. Her response was, “I’d rather play a housekeeper than be a housekeeper.”

Another issue that is often brought up from this time period is the violence/ dominance of the male leads towards the female leads. (This was something you referenced  … when Rhett threatens to crush Scarlett’s scull and then commits spousal rape. The points that I made in regards to racism (from the same time period) are the same for the depiction of violence towards women. Clark Gable’s roles were notoriously controlling, demeaning and violent towards women. In today’s world, we gasp in horror about how the women were treated by the testosterone driven males. Again, I am not condoning violence towards women … not at all. But, during that time period, women found a controlling and somewhat violent male lead as extremely sexy and erotic.

So, in a long-winded way, I am saying that classic films almost always have elements that make us cringe today. But that does not negate the importance or the likeability of any given film. i.e. a person need not feel guilty about loving a film that could not be made the same way today …. such as GWTW. You have every right not to love it …. but  it need not be based solely on how a character is portrayed.

That’s my opinion …. “for what it’s worth …”

[silkncense]

why should this movie be any more of a draw for straight women in general than any other beautiful love story ever filmed?  I honestly don't think it is.  If it were, every red-blooded woman we all know who usually likes such stories would have seen it by now.  And every one who has would be a Brokie.

I agree with this.  I do not think the draw for women (or gay men for that matter) is the romantic story it portrays exclusively.  For me, the impact was ultimately about fear & regret & that transcends many areas of peoples lives.  The love story is the vehicle that carries the message (and what a beautiful vehicle to carry us along).

Another thing that isn't true for me personally.  EVERYONE knows how I feel about the message & movie of Brokeback Mountain.  I think it is an important message for everyone & I have tried (unsuccessfully often) to convince very religious individuals, Christian, Jewish & Muslim to see this film & to try to understand the underlying message of love, fear & regret & that it affects all people.

[dly64]

I agree with this.  I do not think the draw for women (or gay men for that matter) is the romantic story it portrays exclusively.  For me, the impact was ultimately about fear & regret & that transcends many areas of peoples lives.  The love story is the vehicle that carries the message (and what a beautiful vehicle to carry us along).

Another thing that isn't true for me personally.  EVERYONE knows how I feel about the message & movie of Brokeback Mountain.  I think it is an important message for everyone & I have tried (unsuccessfully often) to convince very religious individuals, Christian, Jewish & Muslim to see this film & to try to understand the underlying message of love, fear & regret & that it affects all people.

Beautifully stated.

Those with religious affiliations who refuse to see BBM because of its so-called "immoral content" make me cringe. I am a Christian … and honestly from a very conservative denomination (albeit, I am not conservative by any stretch of the imagination) … and to me, there is nothing “immoral” about the story. This movie is intensely intimate …. I care about Ennis and Jack, a lot. I feel for their families. I feel their pain. I think it is important for those who are seeing this film for the first time is to understand that this film is not making any political statement. It is the story of these two men who love each other. It doesn’t say if it is “right” or “wrong.”  And it certainly does not glamorize homosexuality at all. If anything, it shows the intense pressure for Jack and Ennis to conform to a “normal life” and the toll that pretending takes on everyone involved. Purely devastating!

[serious crayons]

1.   The world view was very different at that time
2.   There was no such thing as political correctness
3.   Rarely were African-Americans represented in a light that emphasized their intelligence.

Oh, I know. But I should tell you that I was a HUGE fan of GWTW. If there's any movie in history that even begins to approach my obsession with BBM, that's it. And the book, too. Starting in I think 5th grade, I read it about 15 times within a few years. My two best friends and I would read it together, and when we reached page 1,037 (the end), we'd flip back to page 1 and start over. We'd draw pictures of the characters, give each other quizzes, discuss them endlessly (it was our own in-person internet message board, I guess!). I probably saw the movie about a dozen times, though that was over the course of a longer period, because in them days you just had to wait until a movie happened to be in theaters.

It wasn't until I was in my teens that I realized that this is a book that glorifies and romanticizes the Ku Klux Klan. That sees black men who choose not to remain slaves after emancipation as dangerous and threatening to white women, and wholeheartedly endorses their lynching. Hattie McDaniel's character is fine, even admirable in a way. And when, say, Ernest Hemingway or F. Scott Fitzgerald depict black characters in a stereotyped way or use ethnic slurs, I'm not fond of it, but that alone doesn't necessarily ruin their books for me because I see them, as you say, as products of their times. Lack of PC I can live with, but endorsing lynching is different. And Margaret Mitchell wrote more than a decade AFTER Ernest and F. Scott (her family members were apparently very unreconciled Confederates). I bet if you pick up the book these days, you'll see what I mean. (The movie watered down some of these things, so they're less obvious than they are in print.)

I do not think the draw for women (or gay men for that matter) is the romantic story it portrays exclusively.

Me neither. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think the romantic story is the movie's only draw. Maybe it sounded like I was saying that, and if so I apologize. I think there are many, many reasons to love the movie, including the message of regret that you mentioned (and others that we've discussed on this board). However, I would say the romance is an aspect of the movie I really like, and I'm guessing I'm not alone on that.

[serious crayons]

I didn’t ever try to reason myself out of Brokeback, but I did try to figure out why it had me. Other people wanted to know why, too, but I never came up with anything that felt like an adequate explanation. Eventually, I stopped trying and did let myself “drift deliciously.”

Me too. For a while I resisted, and then I didn't. Probably because I discovered all these other people who felt the same way and didn't seem to be resisting very hard.

Back to Daum's piece. It's true, I didn't skip out of the movie theater thinking, gee, that sure was nice seeing men express their feelings for a change. I came out of the movie devastated, like most people.

So belatedly I'm realizing that, if this was Barb's point, I see what she's saying. I like Daum's piece, and I agree with her about the emotions. And I don't think Daum was trying to analyze or even describe the movie as a whole, so she wasn't obliged to offer a lot of counterarguments and explanations. But it would have been nice if she'd have stressed -- at least acknowledged -- that the movie's overall impact wasn't a nice romance, but a devastating tragedy.

So Barb, we do (kind of) agree, after all! 

[Mikaela]

I first posted this in a discussion thread about what Ennis knew and when and why he acted as he did, but realized it fits better in here.


I think I may have reached some sort of "inner peace" about what Ennis (and Jack) consciously or subconsciously knew and thought and felt and why they did or didn't do, or say, or feel, or be...... Perhaps it's just the eye of the Brokeback hurricane I'm experiencing at the moment. About time too, after much more than half a year of this.

I've always believed they both know and acknowledge to themselves they love the other, early on in their story, - Ennis too, even if he didn't use the word. In the midst of all their struggles they both knew what they had. I still firmly believe that. I've been wearing my necklace with 2 silver cowboy hat charms quite a lot lately and the reason I like it so much is because it to me *is* a beautiful symbol of deep and abiding and acknowledged love.

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure despite all the pain and grief and loss, all the adversity, dangers, obstacles, difficulties, misunderstandings and setbacks. Perhaps you won't even ever be able to *experience* that level of truth and intense beauty in your life unless you also go through those darkest of places and the most difficult of times. That speaks to me on a *very* personal level these days.

Look at the male/female couples in the film. Not only Ennis's and Jack's marriages, but the other couples. They should have it easier as far as being a couple and having a relationship goes. Alma and Monroe, Jack's parents, Lureen's parents... (I won't even mention the Malones). Yet not a couple in sight who I could be made to believe has *ever* once for a minute felt the kind of passion for each other that Jack and Ennis share for 20 years. Their mutual passion is one of a kind in their world. And well, their whole story just moves me profoundly. Still. After all this time.

So though I'm sure I'll be diving back into discussions of events and actions and emotions and psychological make-up and the impact of childhood traumas and society's oppression and so on....... for now I'm just enjoying this peaceful  Brokeback=love feeling , and from that perspective will continue reading and mulling over what everyone has to say. 

[serious crayons]

Beautifully, beautifully expressed. I agree with every single word.

You know, some people have made the argument that Ennis can't recognize his love for Jack in order for the theme to "work" -- that is, if the theme is the damage caused by rural homophobia, then Ennis must be internal damaged to the point that he ruins his own big chance at love by neglecting to recognize it when it's there.

But from the perspective of supporting the theme, I think we need to know just what's at stake, so we can fully appreciate the tragedy and injustice of it being thwarted. And in that respect it makes much more sense to me not to think of their love as unrequited or "would be" or wasted or unacknowledged or anything like that. It makes more sense to think of their love as great and passionate and mutual and, when they're together, even happy. That's why I so love this paragraph:

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure despite all the pain and grief and loss, all the adversity, dangers, obstacles, difficulties, misunderstandings and setbacks.

I couldn't possibly put it any better.

[Marge_Innavera]

Ah, but there’s the irony--they wouldn’t think that obsession as weird as Brokeaholism. One critic said about Titanic, “50,000,000 teenage girls can’t be wrong.”

I remember another critic saying about BBM that “this movie is aimed at women between <nn> and <nn> who like to watch two hunky young actors smooch and talk about their feelings.”

Critics and others might not think a Titanic obsession as 'weird' but there was a denigrating attitude about it from the point it began to be a hit movie. And it was for the reason you implied: the popularity with women, in the case of Titanic very young women, invalidated it in many peoples' minds. And in the case of Brokeback you have two groups who were especially affected who are both, say, less than respected in terms of art and entertainment: women and gay men.

Interestingly, Titanic comes up as a comparison quite often on Brokeback discussion boards and people often make denigrating comparisons to the love story in the former being shallow. I hadn't found that to be the case. I've re-watched some of my favorite movies since seeing BBM and found I appreciate the love stories more.

The closest I've come to finding people in RL who are as affected by this movie as I've been was when I took a night off to see a screening at Central Missouri State University that was was followed by a talk and Q&A session with Diana Ossana. (Worth using a vacation day!) It was about 300 people, 250 or so of them university students but also people from smaller towns who said it either wasn't shown or had such a short run they'd missed it. Some of them drove a long way just to see this one movie.

[ednbarby]

What I see in TS3 is this: Whatever else happened around them, no matter what anyone called it, whether/how “I love you” was or wasn’t said, the simple fact is that they loved each other. I’d trade my 20 years for just one of their fishing trips.

And you just read my mind.  Spooky, indeed. 

[silkncense]

Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure

Exactly.  I recall reading others who felt nothing but despair over the story of Brokeback.  I felt that, but I also felt and saw as Mikaela so perfectly expressed.

I don't want this to sound trivial - but the scene in the diner of "When Harry Met Sally" where the woman says, "I'll have what she had"?  Maybe the "emotional erotica" is what carries us - not the sharing of emotions/thoughts etc between Ennis & Jack, but that emotional joy they each held, albeit mostly hidden.  Isn't that why the dozy embrace & Reunion scene draws us back again & again?

[jpwagoneer1964]

I first posted this in a discussion thread about what Ennis knew and when and why he acted as he did, but realized it fits better in here.


I think I may have reached some sort of "inner peace" about what Ennis (and Jack) consciously or subconsciously knew and thought and felt and why they did or didn't do, or say, or feel, or be...... Perhaps it's just the eye of the Brokeback hurricane I'm experiencing at the moment. About time too, after much more than half a year of this.

I've always believed they both know and acknowledge to themselves they love the other, early on in their story, - Ennis too, even if he didn't use the word. In the midst of all their struggles they both knew what they had. I still firmly believe that. I've been wearing my necklace with 2 silver cowboy hat charms quite a lot lately and the reason I like it so much is because it to me *is* a beautiful symbol of deep and abiding and acknowledged love.

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. 

Very well said.  They did have at least a years worth of days together plus Brokeback in 1963. Ennis realizing what he had with Jack, knowing he did his best to protect it I sure helped sustain him after Jack death. He lived something we all want.

[ednbarby]

Maybe the "emotional erotica" is what carries us - not the sharing of emotions/thoughts etc between Ennis & Jack, but that emotional joy they each held, albeit mostly hidden.  Isn't that why the dozy embrace & Reunion scene draws us back again & again?

By George, I think she's got it.  Now that you put it that way, I reckon Ms. Daum was right.  But I do think she missed the target but hit the tree.  It wasn't about getting to see men be emotional - it was about experiencing an all-encompassing love - as JP said, what we all want - vicariously through them.

[Aussie Chris]

Could I ask a dumb question?  I mean absolutely no offense and I'm certainly not annoyed, but what the hell is "emotional erotica" supposed to mean exactly???  I've resisted the urge to object to the chick-flick connotation (I see that as being beneath BBM in the first place) or that women are supposed to "get" something out of it differently than men, likewise gay & straight.  In my book emotions & erotica go together as well as army & intelligence.  So is erotica in this context meant to be taken as stimulus??  It doesn't seem right if it is because erotica does mean sexual stimulus, and putting emotional in front of it doesn't change that.  Or am I taking a bit of fun too literally here?

[serious crayons]

I don't know if you've read the past few pages of this thread, Chris, or the essay from the LA Times I posted a link to which triggered the discussion. Those might be helpful in answering your question. Briefly, the essay, written back in early January, was an attempt to explain one reason women like BBM when apparently, at that time, conventional wisdom held that it would appeal mainly to gay men. The writer, Meghan Daum, a woman, speculated that one reason might be that Jack and Ennis show a lot of emotion, whereas men in movies generally don't and men in real life stereotypically don't. The last sentence used the term "emotional pornography," which some people here found inappropriate, so somebody else suggested "emotional erotica" as an alternative.

But

  In my book emotions & erotica go together as well as army & intelligence.

Hunh?! Are you saying they're a contradiction in terms? In my book they're inseparable.

(And actually, the involvement of emotions might be one handy way to distinguish erotica from pornography.)

[Momof2]

When I first saw the movie and every time since, never have I thought, "Gee, it was nice to see two men showing affection."  I thought, Oh my God.  What an absolutely beautiful love story and then I thought I was going to be sick.  As I have said before and I know others have expressed, I was awe struck at the magnitude of their love and the tragedy of it. 

I know Ennis knows he loved Jack.  Even though it is nice to hear those three words, you can know it without hearing it.  I know as a straight woman, sometimes my husband does not say he loves me as much as I would like to hear but I know without question he does.  I would think that a man would have hard time saying I love you no matter what relationship they are in.  Are "gay" men supposed to be more "in touch" with their feelings than straight.  I found it sad that the TWO of them never said I love you, but not unbelievable.  And is the case most of the time, we realize the importance of things when it is to late to do anything about it.

Emotion and erotica go hand in hand with me.  How can you have one with out the other.  It is different than a one night stand which is neither.  That is just raw lust???

[dly64]

In my book emotions & erotica go together as well as army & intelligence.  So is erotica in this context meant to be taken as stimulus??  It doesn't seem right if it is because erotica does mean sexual stimulus, and putting emotional in front of it doesn't change that.  Or am I taking a bit of fun too literally here?

Hunh?! Are you saying they're a contradiction in terms? In my book they're inseparable.
 

Sorry … I have to agree with Chris on this one. Although I may be splitting hairs … as I have been known to do …. “erotica” is different than “erotic.” Erotica is a literary or artistic work that depicts something “erotic.”  “Erotic” is strongly marked or affected by sexual desire. To use the term “erotica” cheapens Jack and Ennis’ relationship (IMO).

I've always believed they both know and acknowledge to themselves they love the other, early on in their story, - Ennis too, even if he didn't use the word. In the midst of all their struggles they both knew what they had.

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure despite all the pain and grief and loss, all the adversity, dangers, obstacles, difficulties, misunderstandings and setbacks. Perhaps you won't even ever be able to *experience* that level of truth and intense beauty in your life unless you also go through those darkest of places and the most difficult of times. That speaks to me on a *very* personal level these days.

Mikaela – as usual, you have expressed yourself beautifully. You are right …. very few of us will ever experience something this intense and pure. I think an important point you make is that this was not a “pie in the sky” depiction of love. It was difficult, it was painful. But it was also passionate and loving.

I am usually a romantic and an optimist. Somehow, this film has made me a realist. What I mean is that this film in no way, shape or form pretends that their love and relationship is some type of utopia. On the contrary … it shows what love can cost.

[Aussie Chris]

Hunh?! Are you saying they're a contradiction in terms? In my book they're inseparable.

(And actually, the involvement of emotions might be one handy way to distinguish erotica from pornography.)

Hmmm, once again I think I'm going to rush in where angels fear to tread.  Actually I think erotica is a term that people use when they're talking about pornography but don't want to use that word.  Basically, erotica = [artistic] pornography (and artistic is a very subjective term).  Sure you can use pornography in a derogatory way to mean sleaze, but the words pornography and erotica both relate to text and/or images that elicit sexual desire, whether it is done tastefully or not.

So back to emotional erotica.  I still don't understand.  Is this supposed to be the emotions of sexual desire, or the stimulation of sexual emotions?  Either way, I have trouble accepting these two words together, but not because I think that sex has nothing to do with emotion (or at least should have).  And without understanding this properly, I seriously have trouble associating Jack and Ennis' story with either pornography or erotica - that's offensive to me.

[Scott6373]

I need to throw this out there because it seems clearer and clearer to me.  

First let me say that I was as effected as anyone by BBM, but we have to separate masterful storytelling and the Hollywood portrayal of "love" and "passion" from what we all know is real.  Sure at the first blush of love, the physical and emotional investment is great, but as time goes on it mellows (if you're luck) into something that can exist on more than just the intense level that it may have been conceived on.

I started this thread with the topic of viewers feeling a sense of jealousy and envy toward our boys for the passionate love they had supposedly found, but the more I thought on the subject, the more I realized that what we saw in that film and experienced were cinematic recreations of real life, no matter how much truth the overall film told.

[silkncense]

Hmmm - I may be off base here but I was not referring (exclusively) to sexual desire. (And I must admit, I did not read the review that started the discussion so I may be in my own world here). 

The specific scenes that I referred to as 'emotional erotica' were not specifically sexual in content.  While it is clear that Jack & Ennis are sexual partners, in my mind, it is not necessary to have an emotional connection to a person to have sexual desire for them.  In fact, you could have love for a person and have sex with them and NOT have the 'emotional erotica' that is what I was trying to express.  That overwhelming passion for a person.  So deep in your gut that you can 'hardly stand it.' 

Most of the scenes that depitct what is supposedly 'love' in Brokeback are not.  How strong the sexual desire is is certainly debatable, but Ennis & his wife have sex several times on screen, Jack & Lureen have sex in the backseat of a car.  Nothing.  Did anyone feel any sexual tension or passion during those scenes?  I certainly didn't.  But the reunion kiss - that showed a passion that few ever find.  The dozy embrace shows an emotional love that transcends many partnerings (is that a word?).  And when Ennis collapsed at the lake - he was so emotionally devastated that his body couldn't maintain him.

This does not make this a 'chick flick' to me.  I can't imagine anyone not only being drawn to this special feeling but craving it.  Knowing that you are missing out if you don't ever have it -

And yet, that all-out, uncontrolled (not uncontrollable), enduring emotional love is not the story or lesson of Brokeback Mountain for me.  That is what Annie & Ang lured us in with.  Ultimately everyone has to decide what the lesson is for themselves.

[Momof2]

Other than the lake scence and the entire end of the film the reunion scene was one of the best.  To me it showed the absolute longing and passion they had for each other.  Ennis so afraid to be seen in public as "queer" just absolutely catches Jack by surprize.  You can see the shock in Jack's eyes.  Not that he was not accepting, just so shocked that Ennis showed these feelings to him in public.  So much passion and obvious longing.  If someone kissed me like that I think I would have died right there.  I was shocked (in a good way) when Ennis grabs him, throws him against the wall and kisses him. 

I agree, in all of the other sex scenes (the wives) there is no passion and I was like oh well.  But a totally different reaction to Jack and Ennis.  Oh to be so lucky and experience that kind of passion and outward desire for another human. 

[dly64]

First let me say that I was as effected as anyone by BBM, but we have to separate masterful storytelling and the Hollywood portrayal of "love" and "passion" from what we all know is real.  Sure at the first blush of love, the physical and emotional investment is great, but as time goes on it mellows (if you're luck) into something that can exist on more than just the intense level that it may have been conceived on.

I started this thread with the topic of viewers feeling a sense of jealousy and envy toward our boys for the passionate love they had supposedly found, but the more I thought on the subject, the more I realized that what we saw in that film and experienced were cinematic recreations of real life, no matter how much truth the overall film told.

Not that I don’t agree with you …. I just want to clarify. Are you saying that in real life, there is the intensity and passion for one another, but it mellows over time? (Which, by the way I completely agree … that is if you are speaking primarily on a physical level).

As for Ennis and Jack …. I think their love for each other is realistically portrayed (as much as can be in a work of fiction). What I am saying is that, yes, they have great passion for each other. And, yes, their sexual intimacy was passionate and intense throughout their entire relationship.  Beyond the sex, however, is a deep love for each other that could not be diminished. As I said earlier, BBM does not give an idealized portrayal of love. It shows the good and the bad, the happy and the painful sides to a relationship. Maybe that is why this film has touched the hearts of so many. It is their longing for each other and their struggles that make their relationship ring true.

[Scott6373]

Beyond the sex, however, is a deep love for each other that could not be diminished. As I said earlier, BBM does not give an idealized portrayal of love.

I'm not sure I can agree with that.  In every attempt to picture the two of them actually living a life togather openly, I get all bogged up, and that's because I don't think it would have ever worked out.  As Jack says, if you count up the times they had been togather in almost twenty years, it barely is enough to get past that initial sexual excitement.  Please don't misunderstand me.  They may have had a deep and abiding love for one another, but, yes, over time, love does mellow, phsyically and emotionaly, and changes dramatically, and I can't see them togather for very long. 

[Momof2]

As for Ennis and Jack …. I think their love for each other is realistically portrayed (as much as can be in a work of fiction). What I am saying is that, yes, they have great passion for each other. And, yes, their sexual intimacy was passionate and intense throughout their entire relationship.  Beyond the sex, however, is a deep love for each other that could not be diminished. As I said earlier, BBM does not give an idealized portrayal of love. It shows the good and the bad, the happy and the painful sides to a relationship. Maybe that is why this film has touched the hearts of so many. It is their longing for each other and their struggles that make their relationship ring true.

[/quote]

I agree.  It is not your typical love story.  Besides the fact that it is about two men.  It shows the love that most of us experience.  There is no perfect relationship.  I do not necessarily believe love mellows over time, I just think it becomes a different kind of love.  My husband and I have been married 10 years and dated 5 befor that.  Do we have the same passion or love as in the first year we dated.  No.  But our love is deeper and stronger.  Our first few years it was more about the physical side of love.  Now it is a deep love that is better than in the beginning.  Just because you do not see your love everyday does not mean your love grows mellow.  I do not think that the sex would have kept them together on and off for 20 years.  They would have had Brokeback and it would have ended there.  At the least after the divorce Jack would not have kept coming back if it were sex.  He proved that he went to Mexico for the sex he missed.  Only love can bind 2 people together that strong.  I am sure the sex was part of it, but you can be in love with someone and not have sex all the time.  As they grew older their "needs" changed.  They had to have been in deep love to have lasted as long as they did.  When Ennis colapses at the lake, it is not because of the physical side but the unbearable thought of them not being together.  When he grabbed Jack while on the ground that sealed it for me.  I knew then how deep he loved Jack and how when Jack rushed to his side unable to bear the hurt in Ennis's voice I knew then they their love was true. 

[serious crayons]

Man, this is getting complicated. I think we're all looking at this from slightly different angles, partly arguing semantics.

I'll admit I'm not a habitual consumer of either porn or erotica, so forgive me if I sound clueless. But I think erotica almost requires emotion. It calls to mind the old saying, "Your most powerful sexual organ is your brain."

My dictionary suggests that Chris is right, erotica is arty porn. Here's how it defines pornography: "the presentation of sexually explicit behavior, as in a photograph, intended to arouse sexual excitement. And here's erotica: "literature or art intending to arouse sexual desire" (emphasis mine). But good literature and art provoke an emotional response.

What I've seen of pornography I've found boring, primarily because it appears so lacking in emotional context. As far as I can tell, it's just people performing sex acts, and even when they're acts that I might enjoy doing myself, watching strangers do them doesn't interest me. Oh, I know there's often some skeleton of a story: it's a rich guy and his maid or whatever. But generally we don't really get to know the characters very well (again, from what I've seen).

I know even less about erotica (that is, art intended mainly to be sexually exciting). But I've always assumed it takes a more careful approach, draws you in, gets you involved in a story, makes you form opinions about the characters and so on. I'm still not a big fan, but I think this emotional factor would make it more interesting.

So could one use either term in regard to BBM? Well, I don't think you could call the movie porn by any stretch. And though it's certainly great art, its main intention isn't to be sexually exiciting, so technically it's not erotica either.

But I've described the movie as "erotic" many times (usually as part of a list of ways the movie is great, which would also include artistic, intellectual, emotional, political, literary, etc.) That's because, well, the love scenes are sexy. I realize not everybody feels that way. But from previous discussions here, I know a lot of people do. So I don't think it's disrespectful or cheapening or offensive to call it erotic unless you're saying that's the only reason, or the primary reason, for the movie's appeal. Which, obviously, I'm not. TS2, for example, is both sexy AND emotionally compelling (and artistic and beautiful etc. etc.).

When somebody coined the term "emotional erotica," though, they were talking about the LA Times piece about how women like seeing men express emotions onscreen (though that's not the only thing they love about it, nor is it only women who love that). I believe they were talking about a response that was emotional, not sexual.
Am I making any sense, or just muddling things even further?

As for Jack and Ennis' sex life. I don't really like using the story to explain the movie (or vise versa) but I've so often wished that the story line referring to "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings" had been depicted in the movie.

[nakymaton]

Umm, as the person who brought up the term "emotional erotica"... my tongue was very firmly in my cheek. Yes, Chris, I was definitely thinking of the people (1980's vintage feminists, in particular) who distinguished between "pornography" and "erotica" on the basis of artistic merit. So Meghan Daum joked about "emotional pornography" (I'm pretty sure the term was a joke, even if the point she was making wasn't); I joked about it being "art," and therefore "erotica."

But the point that Daum was making... I think that she was trying to get at the question of "why is this movie a turn-on for women?" Because, beyond all the movie's considerable artistic acheivements, ummm... it's really hot. The appeal is not entirely intellectual. And for women who may have read gay literature, or watched other gay-themed movies, or seen gay porn, and not been turned on... then the question becomes: why this movie?

I don't think Daum's explanation is perfect, and there are a lot of points where I would argue with her. But I've heard similar discussions about the "slash" phenomenon, and about what exactly about it appeals to women. Some of the arguments were similar to Daum's. (Others focused on comparing the phenomenon to straight male fantasies about lesbians, and maybe there's a point there, too. Though the comparison makes me feel really guilty, because I find Howard Stern's (etc) lesbian fantasies to be exploitative, and it bothers me to think that I'm being exploitative in my own way by being fascinated with BBM.)

[dly64]

I'm not sure I can agree with that.  In every attempt to picture the two of them actually living a life together openly, I get all bogged up, and that's because I don't think it would have ever worked out.  As Jack says, if you count up the times they had been together in almost twenty years, it barely is enough to get past that initial sexual excitement.  Please don't misunderstand me.  They may have had a deep and abiding love for one another, but, yes, over time, love does mellow, physically and emotionally, and changes dramatically, and I can't see them together for very long.  

I do not necessarily believe love mellows over time, I just think it becomes a different kind of love.  My husband and I have been married 10 years and dated 5 befor that.  Do we have the same passion or love as in the first year we dated.  No.  But our love is deeper and stronger.  Our first few years it was more about the physical side of love.  Now it is a deep love that is better than in the beginning.  Just because you do not see your love everyday does not mean your love grows mellow.  I do not think that the sex would have kept them together on and off for 20 years.  

Scott – I agree with Momof2 in regards to the point about love mellowing over time. There is a big difference between having a purely sexual relationship and having a loving relationship. I think Jack and Ennis exemplify the latter.

There is a joke about the amount of time a couple has sex in their first year together versus following years. The idea is that if you put a penny in the jar for every time you have sex within the first year, and then take a penny out every time you have sex in the proceeding years, the penny jar will never be empty. The point being (albeit a bit tongue and cheek) is that a lasting relationship is not solely based on sex.

There have been a lot of discussions regarding whether or not Ennis and Jack’s relationship was initially a sexual one. I am inclined to say no. Yes, they had great sex and they both enjoyed it. However, they had built up a friendship before they ever had sex. It is obvious by TS2 that their relationship was not only a physical one. As I like to say about a loving relationship …. They each had a “soft place to fall.”

Could have they made a life together? I think “yes.” Is that the romantic in me coming out? Probably. But, IMO, they could have made it work. They understood each other in a way that no one else could. Tragically, we will never know.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Scott – I agree with Momof2 in regards to the point about love mellowing over time. There is a big difference between having a purely sexual relationship and having a loving relationship. I think Jack and Ennis exemplify the latter.

 
  However, they had built up a friendship before they ever had sex. It is obvious by TS2 that their relationship was not only a physical one. As I like to say about a loving relationship …. They each had a “soft place to fall.”

Could have they made a life together? I think “yes.” Is that the romantic in me coming out? Probably. But, IMO, they could have made it work. They understood each other in a way that no one else could. Tragically, we will never know.

I agree, their compatibility was established in the frst days of their relationship.

[serious crayons]

And for women who may have read gay literature, or watched other gay-themed movies, or seen gay porn, and not been turned on... then the question becomes: why this movie?

I've never seen (erotic) gay literature, movies or porn, so I don't know how I'd react, but I've never felt especially drawn to them. I guess I just felt that, by definition, I would feel excluded. So I didn't expect to find BBM a turn on. I learned something new about myself, and I've sought an explanation. I don't think, for me, it's specifically about gay men having sex. I don't think I have any more interest in seeing other gay couples together than I did before (though I've learned not to make assumptions, even about myself!).

So why this movie? Maybe because the actors are so hot. Maybe because I know them to be straight in "real life." Maybe because the scenes are so well done, so beautifully filmed and acted. Maybe because their passion is so convincing and intense. Maybe because it's so emotionally engaging. Probably some combination of all those.

I did figure out one thing for sure. I had always assumed that when I found a straight love scene sexy, it was because I was identifying with the woman.  I assumed I would not find love scenes in BBM sexy because there'd be no one for me to identify with. What I discovered is, it's not a matter of identifying with one of the participants by gender. It's about finding at least one of the participants attractive; if I do, I can put myself in place of the other participant regardless of gender. (I assume that's what many gay people do when watching straight love stories?) And in BBM, you get two attractive participants for the price of one!

I've always rolled my eyes at the idea of men fantasizing about watching two women get it on. Now I feel kind of bad about that. But I do think that's often a different kind of thing. I think -- and this is completely wild speculation; I've never talked to any man about this, only seen it on TV -- that many men with this fantasy ultimately want the women to be doing it for the man's benefit. In other words, it's not about a lesbian couple, per se, it's about two women putting on a show for the purpose of arousing the guy (I think). That's probably not always be the case, but I believe that's how, for instance, Girls Gone Wild works.

If there are any straight men reading this who can be enlightening, please feel free to jump in!

[silkncense]

They may have had a deep and abiding love for one another, but, yes, over time, love does mellow, phsyically and emotionaly, and changes dramatically, and I can't see them togather for very long. 

So, then no relationship would ever succeed??  Their love & passion was clearly built on a foundation of friendship.  If the obstacle that prevented Ennis from accepting a full-time relationship was removed, you still don't see success?

[Aussie Chris]

Umm, as the person who brought up the term "emotional erotica"... my tongue was very firmly in my cheek. Yes, Chris, I was definitely thinking of the people (1980's vintage feminists, in particular) who distinguished between "pornography" and "erotica" on the basis of artistic merit. So Meghan Daum joked about "emotional pornography" (I'm pretty sure the term was a joke, even if the point she was making wasn't); I joked about it being "art," and therefore "erotica."

Ok Mel & Katherine, yes I get the tongue in the cheek, for the most part so is mine although I do have a problem with political correctness, especially when people actually buy into it when really it's little more than verbal diarrhoea!

But the point that Daum was making... I think that she was trying to get at the question of "why is this movie a turn-on for women?" Because, beyond all the movie's considerable artistic acheivements, ummm... it's really hot. The appeal is not entirely intellectual. And for women who may have read gay literature, or watched other gay-themed movies, or seen gay porn, and not been turned on... then the question becomes: why this movie?

I don't think Daum's explanation is perfect, and there are a lot of points where I would argue with her. But I've heard similar discussions about the "slash" phenomenon, and about what exactly about it appeals to women. Some of the arguments were similar to Daum's. (Others focused on comparing the phenomenon to straight male fantasies about lesbians, and maybe there's a point there, too. Though the comparison makes me feel really guilty, because I find Howard Stern's (etc) lesbian fantasies to be exploitative, and it bothers me to think that I'm being exploitative in my own way by being fascinated with BBM.)

These are reasonable questions, but I really think they are misplaced.  You see, simply asking "why women enjoy BBM when its central characters are gay men" more than implies a sexual (maybe even pornographic) motive for watching it.  And the comparison with the [straight] males' preoccupation with lesbians, which *is* exploitative by the way, only emphasises my point.  Basically I see these comparisons as cheapening everything about BBM, and I even go so far to say that proponents of this argument have no class at all.  (Yes my tongue is still in my cheek).

Ok, here's what I really think.  I think women's enjoyment of BBM is the same as mine (a gay man's).  It's not about the sex or the sexuality of the characters.  It's about the genuine and truthful depiction of the emotions.  Some of these emotions are beautiful and endearing while others are not, and that's good because it's the unflinching honesty that makes it possible to believe in them.  If we become aroused it's because we are responding to these emotions, not because we are being titillated by a simulation of sex.  To be honest, it's not even a particularly good simulation of sex in TS1, but it gets the job done as far as the story telling is concerned.  But the emotional power of BBM has no equal IMO.  I don't think there has ever been a film (or ever will be again) that has emotions with the impact of BBM.  Maybe that's because the need we have for them at this point in history is equally matched?  Those of us so deeply affected by BBM are also the ones that long for a world where all love, gay and straight, is celebrated equally and the fear of sexual oppression is just a historical curiosity?

To be continued...

[Momof2]

Aussie Chris I agree with you 100%. 

[serious crayons]

You see, simply asking "why women enjoy BBM when its central characters are gay men" more than implies a sexual (maybe even pornographic) motive for watching it.

In the LA Times piece, sex didn't come up at all. It was all about emotion. She didn't even refer to the love scenes specifically. Nor did she deny that other characteristics -- powerful story, etc. -- that are far more important. But those characteristics would presumably appeal to anybody who saw it. She simply discussed one of the movie's qualities -- men expressing deep emotion -- that women specifically might like. (Chris, if you're curious about the piece that triggered all this controversy, the link is in a post by me a page or two back.)

But maybe it's worth mentioning the elephant in the room: that, let's face it, if this board is any measure the fans of this movie are not exactly demographically representative, in terms of sexual orientation, of the population as a whole. I believe about half the members are women, some gay, and then there are lots of gay men. Do you notice any group conspicuously underrepresented? I'm not saying there are NO straight men; I know there are some. But from what I've observed (and I could be wrong; not everybody discusses their sexuality, of course) their numbers sure don't seem to match their proportion of the population.

That's not all about sex, of course. Many straight men are uncomfortable watching the sex scenes (i.e., homophobic). Gay men have many personal reasons to love the movie more than straight men might. But still. Not all straight men are homophobic, I would hope, so why is their number so miniscule? I bet the same couldn't be said about, say, Casablanca. Or even Titanic. Why would they be so immune to a powerful emotional story?

Anyway, I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing that sexual attraction is the primary reason for loving the movie. But does it really cheapen it to include it among the many reasons?

If we become aroused it's because we are responding to these emotions, not because we are being titillated by a simulation of sex.  To be honest, it's not even a particularly good simulation of sex in TS1, but it gets the job done

This is getting so uncomfortably literal that it IS sounding a bit pornographic. Let's just put it this way: part of the function of love stories is to let viewers vicariously experience a great romantic love. And sex is part of the picture. That's why most love stories contain scenes of sex or at least kissing. It doesn't have to be out-and-out sex -- in the case of BBM, many people like or even prefer TS2 and the reunion scene. And the response is not entirely sexual; it's all mixed up with emotions. If the whole movie were nothing but variations on TS1 I bet a lot of BetterMost members wouldn't be here (if there even was a BetterMost). But part of its appeal is erotic. I don't think you have to deny that in order to respect the movie, any more than you have to deny sexual attraction in order to respect a person you love.

I'm kind of grasping for ways to describe this, Chris, because your post makes me wonder if you and I perceive the response to sex scenes differently. I'm not talking about people necessarily responding to it, um ... the way they would to pornography. It's much more about emotions than that.

    But the emotional power of BBM has no equal IMO.  I don't think there has ever been a film (or ever will be again) that has emotions with the impact of BBM.

I'd be surprised if anyone on this board would disagree with you here, Chris. 

[Aussie Chris]

I'm kind of grasping for ways to describe this, Chris, because your post makes me wonder if you and I perceive the response to sex scenes differently. I'm not talking about people necessarily responding to it, um ... the way they would to pornography. It's much more about emotions than that.

I've been thinking about this myself, I've got a can of elephant repellant here, I'll give the room a good spray.  There.  Katherine, I don't think we perceive the sex scenes in BBM differently at all.  The appeal is primarily emotional, but that in itself has an erotic quality to it and it's juvenile to suggest otherwise.  My objection to the expression "emotional erotica/pornography" was because I see it as senonomous to saying "porn for women", and that infers that BBM is for women (and/or gay men).  Regardless of where the toungue is placed, I don't like the idea of branding BBM as being anything for any one particular demographic.  And as far as I am concerned, using the word pornography or erotica in the artical means that we *are* talking about sex.  Putting "emotional" in front of it doesn't change that.

If there are very few straight men among us, that's just their ignorance and fear at work, and as a demographic they need understanding and patience, not condemnation.  A straight male colleague of mine at work saw BBM for the first time last weekend, he finally asked to borrow my copy.  But I never suggested it.  He simply got to know me and became curious because I spoke highly of the quality of the film and of the film making.  His verdict?  He loved it and was astonished to be drawn into the character of Ennis.  But his wife refused to watch it with him!  Go figure eh?

I may be a little over the top here (obsessive?) but I think that a contributing factor in sexual inequality and oppression is that we (humans) keep separating the genders and orientations and saying certain attractors are for women or men.  Is gay different to being straight?  Do men really want different things to women?  Physical Sex versus Emotional Fulfillment?  Marriage versus Civil Union?  We are just as guilty for the ignorance of those that oppress us because we propogate the stereotypes.  My best friend who is a female and is loving and accepting of me still says "the kissing is confronting" and feels it necessary to prepare her friends and family before they watch it.  Why does that bug me?  I don't even know if I really understand it myself.  But I'm exploring these emotions here with you to try to find out (in case you missed that fact)...

[serious crayons]

My objection to the expression "emotional erotica/pornography" was because I see it as senonomous to saying "porn for women", and that infers that BBM is for women (and/or gay men).  Regardless of where the toungue is placed, I don't like the idea of branding BBM as being anything for any one particular demographic.  And as far as I am concerned, using the word pornography or erotica in the artical means that we *are* talking about sex.  Putting "emotional" in front of it doesn't change that.

Well I agree, to some extent, with the stereotype part. But not with the sex part. Chris, really, the article IS all about emotions. Sex, aside from the tongue-in-cheek use of the word pornography, is a non-issue in it. Here, for the record, is the piece:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-daum7jan07,0,3054088.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions


And here's a recap of her main point:

So how has this art-house film, a "gay movie" whose target audience is ostensibly the small percentage of the population that identifies as homosexual, managed to insinuate itself into the hearts and cocktail-party conversations of so many heteros? It's that 51% of the population known as women, stupid!

... For all their monosyllabism, Jack (Jake Gyllenhaal) and Ennis (Heath Ledger) are fonts of emotion. Sure, they're prone to the usual male-pattern drinking, fighting and marrying women without knowing quite what they're doing, but when it comes to their love for each other, their hearts aren't just on their sleeves, they're pinned to their foreheads.

And guess what? Chicks dig it.

You know, first I spent about 10 posts defending the article to Barb, and now I'm in the middle of defending it to you, Chris, and I just reread it again and realize it's not that good. I first read it in January, thought she made an interesting point, one that I personally can identify with, and bookmarked it. But it's not the most profound thing I ever read about the movie. It's probably not worth all the effort I am making on its behalf. However, I still don't disagree with its premise.

As for stereotyping, you're right. It's too bad BBM's demographics are so skewed. (Well, realistically they're always going to be a little skewed, if only because gay people have particular reasons to really appreciate the movie -- and I'm not talking about sexuality here -- that most straight people don't share, at least not on as personal a level.) But it is too bad there aren't more straight men among our number. Or, for that matter, in the theaters where it played. (Maybe more straight men are seeing it in the privacy of their living rooms, but even that is kind of stupid.)

  Is gay different to being straight?  Do men really want different things to women?  Physical Sex versus Emotional Fulfillment?  Marriage versus Civil Union?  We are just as guilty for the ignorance of those that oppress us because we propogate the stereotypes.

Well, yes, frankly I do think those things are different. I don't think it is bigotry or even stereotyping to recognize that different people have different issues, and sexuality, gender, nationality, religion, race, etc. influence those differences. To ignore those is to ignore part of what makes humans interesting. It's just that we have to accept and try to understand each others' differences, I think.

[dly64]

I may be a little over the top here (obsessive?) but I think that a contributing factor in sexual inequality and oppression is that we (humans) keep separating the genders and orientations and saying certain attractors are for women or men.  Is gay different to being straight?  Do men really want different things to women?  Physical Sex versus Emotional Fulfillment?  Marriage versus Civil Union?  We are just as guilty for the ignorance of those that oppress us because we propagate the stereotypes.  My best friend who is a female and is loving and accepting of me still says "the kissing is confronting" and feels it necessary to prepare her friends and family before they watch it.  Why does that bug me?  I don't even know if I really understand it myself.  But I'm exploring these emotions here with you to try to find out (in case you missed that fact)...

Well, yes, frankly I do think those things are different. I don't think it is bigotry or even stereotyping to recognize that different people have different issues, and sexuality, gender, nationality, religion, race, etc. influence those differences. To ignore those is to ignore part of what makes humans interesting. It's just that we have to accept and try to understand each others' differences, I think.

Chris - I have to agree with Katherine on this point. The reality is that we are different. There is certainly some universality in what we long for. However, our life experiences greatly influence how we respond to any given situation.

I was compelled to write a response primarily because of your comment regarding your female friend “preparing” those before they watch the film. I have to admit that I have done that. My reason is that I come from a very Bible belt religious conservative area. Many people (rightly or wrongly) would be offended by what is in the film. So, before we even watch it, I qualify it. I always say that this film is not for everyone, there is a lot of language in the film (which is actually as big of an issue as the sex scenes), there are two kissing scenes and one sex scene between the men and three sex scenes with the women, showing some nudity. I guess I am one who is very sensitive towards the possibility of offending someone. What I don’t want is for someone to watch the film if s/he is uncomfortable. Despite how much I love this film, not everyone can see beyond the fact that this is, indeed, a love story between two men.

[silkncense]

It's about the genuine and truthful depiction of the emotions.  Some of these emotions are beautiful and endearing while others are not, and that's good because it's the unflinching honesty that makes it possible to believe in them.  If we become aroused it's because we are responding to these emotions

Chris - Although I 'borrowed' the term emotional erotica (from Naky) I hope when you read my post that you saw what I meant is exactly what you just expressed:

But the reunion kiss - that showed a passion that few ever find.  The dozy embrace shows an emotional love that transcends many partnerings (is that a word?).  And when Ennis collapsed at the lake - he was so emotionally devastated that his body couldn't maintain him.

This does not make this a 'chick flick' to me.  I can't imagine anyone not only being drawn to this special feeling but craving it.  Knowing that you are missing out if you don't ever have it -

And yet, that all-out, uncontrolled (not uncontrollable), enduring emotional love is not the story or lesson of Brokeback Mountain

 

And I was not referring to a sexual arousal in using that term, but an emotional response far beyond the norm - something that would evoke a physical feeling.  A feeling beyond any I have experienced with any other film - emotions so intense that I HAD to find someone who understood it.  Thus IMDb, Chez Tremblay & here. 

[silkncense]

because I spoke highly of the quality of the film and of the film making.  His verdict?  He loved it and was astonished to be drawn into the character of Ennis.  But his wife

Chris - I hope you read my thread titled "Finally"  You will find it very similar to the above.

[southendmd]

this deserves a bump