The true reason

[dly64]

I agree with this.  I do not think the draw for women (or gay men for that matter) is the romantic story it portrays exclusively.  For me, the impact was ultimately about fear & regret & that transcends many areas of peoples lives.  The love story is the vehicle that carries the message (and what a beautiful vehicle to carry us along).

Another thing that isn't true for me personally.  EVERYONE knows how I feel about the message & movie of Brokeback Mountain.  I think it is an important message for everyone & I have tried (unsuccessfully often) to convince very religious individuals, Christian, Jewish & Muslim to see this film & to try to understand the underlying message of love, fear & regret & that it affects all people.

Beautifully stated.

Those with religious affiliations who refuse to see BBM because of its so-called "immoral content" make me cringe. I am a Christian … and honestly from a very conservative denomination (albeit, I am not conservative by any stretch of the imagination) … and to me, there is nothing “immoral” about the story. This movie is intensely intimate …. I care about Ennis and Jack, a lot. I feel for their families. I feel their pain. I think it is important for those who are seeing this film for the first time is to understand that this film is not making any political statement. It is the story of these two men who love each other. It doesn’t say if it is “right” or “wrong.”  And it certainly does not glamorize homosexuality at all. If anything, it shows the intense pressure for Jack and Ennis to conform to a “normal life” and the toll that pretending takes on everyone involved. Purely devastating!

[serious crayons]

1.   The world view was very different at that time
2.   There was no such thing as political correctness
3.   Rarely were African-Americans represented in a light that emphasized their intelligence.

Oh, I know. But I should tell you that I was a HUGE fan of GWTW. If there's any movie in history that even begins to approach my obsession with BBM, that's it. And the book, too. Starting in I think 5th grade, I read it about 15 times within a few years. My two best friends and I would read it together, and when we reached page 1,037 (the end), we'd flip back to page 1 and start over. We'd draw pictures of the characters, give each other quizzes, discuss them endlessly (it was our own in-person internet message board, I guess!). I probably saw the movie about a dozen times, though that was over the course of a longer period, because in them days you just had to wait until a movie happened to be in theaters.

It wasn't until I was in my teens that I realized that this is a book that glorifies and romanticizes the Ku Klux Klan. That sees black men who choose not to remain slaves after emancipation as dangerous and threatening to white women, and wholeheartedly endorses their lynching. Hattie McDaniel's character is fine, even admirable in a way. And when, say, Ernest Hemingway or F. Scott Fitzgerald depict black characters in a stereotyped way or use ethnic slurs, I'm not fond of it, but that alone doesn't necessarily ruin their books for me because I see them, as you say, as products of their times. Lack of PC I can live with, but endorsing lynching is different. And Margaret Mitchell wrote more than a decade AFTER Ernest and F. Scott (her family members were apparently very unreconciled Confederates). I bet if you pick up the book these days, you'll see what I mean. (The movie watered down some of these things, so they're less obvious than they are in print.)

I do not think the draw for women (or gay men for that matter) is the romantic story it portrays exclusively.

Me neither. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think the romantic story is the movie's only draw. Maybe it sounded like I was saying that, and if so I apologize. I think there are many, many reasons to love the movie, including the message of regret that you mentioned (and others that we've discussed on this board). However, I would say the romance is an aspect of the movie I really like, and I'm guessing I'm not alone on that.

[serious crayons]

I didn’t ever try to reason myself out of Brokeback, but I did try to figure out why it had me. Other people wanted to know why, too, but I never came up with anything that felt like an adequate explanation. Eventually, I stopped trying and did let myself “drift deliciously.”

Me too. For a while I resisted, and then I didn't. Probably because I discovered all these other people who felt the same way and didn't seem to be resisting very hard.

Back to Daum's piece. It's true, I didn't skip out of the movie theater thinking, gee, that sure was nice seeing men express their feelings for a change. I came out of the movie devastated, like most people.

So belatedly I'm realizing that, if this was Barb's point, I see what she's saying. I like Daum's piece, and I agree with her about the emotions. And I don't think Daum was trying to analyze or even describe the movie as a whole, so she wasn't obliged to offer a lot of counterarguments and explanations. But it would have been nice if she'd have stressed -- at least acknowledged -- that the movie's overall impact wasn't a nice romance, but a devastating tragedy.

So Barb, we do (kind of) agree, after all! 

[Mikaela]

I first posted this in a discussion thread about what Ennis knew and when and why he acted as he did, but realized it fits better in here.


I think I may have reached some sort of "inner peace" about what Ennis (and Jack) consciously or subconsciously knew and thought and felt and why they did or didn't do, or say, or feel, or be...... Perhaps it's just the eye of the Brokeback hurricane I'm experiencing at the moment. About time too, after much more than half a year of this.

I've always believed they both know and acknowledge to themselves they love the other, early on in their story, - Ennis too, even if he didn't use the word. In the midst of all their struggles they both knew what they had. I still firmly believe that. I've been wearing my necklace with 2 silver cowboy hat charms quite a lot lately and the reason I like it so much is because it to me *is* a beautiful symbol of deep and abiding and acknowledged love.

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure despite all the pain and grief and loss, all the adversity, dangers, obstacles, difficulties, misunderstandings and setbacks. Perhaps you won't even ever be able to *experience* that level of truth and intense beauty in your life unless you also go through those darkest of places and the most difficult of times. That speaks to me on a *very* personal level these days.

Look at the male/female couples in the film. Not only Ennis's and Jack's marriages, but the other couples. They should have it easier as far as being a couple and having a relationship goes. Alma and Monroe, Jack's parents, Lureen's parents... (I won't even mention the Malones). Yet not a couple in sight who I could be made to believe has *ever* once for a minute felt the kind of passion for each other that Jack and Ennis share for 20 years. Their mutual passion is one of a kind in their world. And well, their whole story just moves me profoundly. Still. After all this time.

So though I'm sure I'll be diving back into discussions of events and actions and emotions and psychological make-up and the impact of childhood traumas and society's oppression and so on....... for now I'm just enjoying this peaceful  Brokeback=love feeling , and from that perspective will continue reading and mulling over what everyone has to say. 

[serious crayons]

Beautifully, beautifully expressed. I agree with every single word.

You know, some people have made the argument that Ennis can't recognize his love for Jack in order for the theme to "work" -- that is, if the theme is the damage caused by rural homophobia, then Ennis must be internal damaged to the point that he ruins his own big chance at love by neglecting to recognize it when it's there.

But from the perspective of supporting the theme, I think we need to know just what's at stake, so we can fully appreciate the tragedy and injustice of it being thwarted. And in that respect it makes much more sense to me not to think of their love as unrequited or "would be" or wasted or unacknowledged or anything like that. It makes more sense to think of their love as great and passionate and mutual and, when they're together, even happy. That's why I so love this paragraph:

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure despite all the pain and grief and loss, all the adversity, dangers, obstacles, difficulties, misunderstandings and setbacks.

I couldn't possibly put it any better.

[Marge_Innavera]

Ah, but there’s the irony--they wouldn’t think that obsession as weird as Brokeaholism. One critic said about Titanic, “50,000,000 teenage girls can’t be wrong.”

I remember another critic saying about BBM that “this movie is aimed at women between <nn> and <nn> who like to watch two hunky young actors smooch and talk about their feelings.”

Critics and others might not think a Titanic obsession as 'weird' but there was a denigrating attitude about it from the point it began to be a hit movie. And it was for the reason you implied: the popularity with women, in the case of Titanic very young women, invalidated it in many peoples' minds. And in the case of Brokeback you have two groups who were especially affected who are both, say, less than respected in terms of art and entertainment: women and gay men.

Interestingly, Titanic comes up as a comparison quite often on Brokeback discussion boards and people often make denigrating comparisons to the love story in the former being shallow. I hadn't found that to be the case. I've re-watched some of my favorite movies since seeing BBM and found I appreciate the love stories more.

The closest I've come to finding people in RL who are as affected by this movie as I've been was when I took a night off to see a screening at Central Missouri State University that was was followed by a talk and Q&A session with Diana Ossana. (Worth using a vacation day!) It was about 300 people, 250 or so of them university students but also people from smaller towns who said it either wasn't shown or had such a short run they'd missed it. Some of them drove a long way just to see this one movie.

[ednbarby]

What I see in TS3 is this: Whatever else happened around them, no matter what anyone called it, whether/how “I love you” was or wasn’t said, the simple fact is that they loved each other. I’d trade my 20 years for just one of their fishing trips.

And you just read my mind.  Spooky, indeed. 

[silkncense]

Moments of perfect happiness and passionate love with the one person they were destined to be with in all the world. What speaks to me especially is the very fact that what they had was so deeply real and true and pure

Exactly.  I recall reading others who felt nothing but despair over the story of Brokeback.  I felt that, but I also felt and saw as Mikaela so perfectly expressed.

I don't want this to sound trivial - but the scene in the diner of "When Harry Met Sally" where the woman says, "I'll have what she had"?  Maybe the "emotional erotica" is what carries us - not the sharing of emotions/thoughts etc between Ennis & Jack, but that emotional joy they each held, albeit mostly hidden.  Isn't that why the dozy embrace & Reunion scene draws us back again & again?

[jpwagoneer1964]

I first posted this in a discussion thread about what Ennis knew and when and why he acted as he did, but realized it fits better in here.


I think I may have reached some sort of "inner peace" about what Ennis (and Jack) consciously or subconsciously knew and thought and felt and why they did or didn't do, or say, or feel, or be...... Perhaps it's just the eye of the Brokeback hurricane I'm experiencing at the moment. About time too, after much more than half a year of this.

I've always believed they both know and acknowledge to themselves they love the other, early on in their story, - Ennis too, even if he didn't use the word. In the midst of all their struggles they both knew what they had. I still firmly believe that. I've been wearing my necklace with 2 silver cowboy hat charms quite a lot lately and the reason I like it so much is because it to me *is* a beautiful symbol of deep and abiding and acknowledged love.

All the tragedy and missed opportunities and twarthed hopes and dreams in the film serves to put the love story in high relief, make it stand out all the clearer and more beautiful. Ennis and Jack had their love for each other tested and tried like few others, and they both had to make significant personal sacrifices, and still the love held. And even if they did not have much time together, and the entirely happy times were few, - they *did* have them. 

Very well said.  They did have at least a years worth of days together plus Brokeback in 1963. Ennis realizing what he had with Jack, knowing he did his best to protect it I sure helped sustain him after Jack death. He lived something we all want.

[ednbarby]

Maybe the "emotional erotica" is what carries us - not the sharing of emotions/thoughts etc between Ennis & Jack, but that emotional joy they each held, albeit mostly hidden.  Isn't that why the dozy embrace & Reunion scene draws us back again & again?

By George, I think she's got it.  Now that you put it that way, I reckon Ms. Daum was right.  But I do think she missed the target but hit the tree.  It wasn't about getting to see men be emotional - it was about experiencing an all-encompassing love - as JP said, what we all want - vicariously through them.