P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17

[Front-Ranger]

Did you notice if the prop book identifies the small bag on the bed inside the trailer?
Does it call it a manbag? saddlebag? or Juniors bag?

Curious minds would like to know Lee.

I specifically looked for that, Toast. But there was no mention of it. EDelMar told me that if the actors did not touch it, it is considered set decoration and is not included in the prop book. However, I had the chance to see that mysterious object on the large screen when I was in Bay City. IMHO, it was a mistake that it was included in the scene. The object is a richly tooled portfolio cover, and is unlike something that either Alma Jr or Ennis would have possessed. Just my opinion.

[Toast]

Thanks Lee

I'm inclined to agree that neither Ennis nor Junior would posess such a finely tooled portfolio.
But it's interesting that it's in the scene from two different angles, and moved slightly between scenes.

Thanks again Lee and EDelMar.
I see tht yu had a great time in Michigan.

[serious crayons]

It fascinates me that you see him--and that scene--this way. While I don't think his "troublemaking" is just gratuitous, in that scene with Ennis I've never been able to see anything in John Twist's demeanor except bitterness and deep contempt--contempt for his own son, emphasized by that business of spitting into his cup. 

Yes, I've always thought he looked sad sitting at the table. And the way some people deal with grief is to lash out bitterly and contemptuously -- especially, I'm sure, people who are bitter and contemptuous by nature in the first place.

I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.

[Front-Ranger]

Very thought-provoking, Katherine!

[Jeff Wrangler]

Yes, I've always thought he looked sad sitting at the table. And the way some people deal with grief is to lash out bitterly and contemptuously -- especially, I'm sure, people who are bitter and contemptuous by nature in the first place.

Good point about some people dealing with grief by lashing out in bitterness at others. I've seen that in RL--by the sister of a late friend, with whom I've been unhappily yoked for two years as co-excutors of my friend's estate.  

I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.

That is an interesting theory. I'm sure I've said elsewhere that I see the denial of the ashes not as an action against Ennis but as the old man's final act of control over the son he deemed a failure and a disappointment.

[moremojo]

That is an interesting theory. I'm sure I've said elsewhere that I see the denial of the ashes not as an action against Ennis but as the old man's final act of control over the son he deemed a failure and a disappointment.

Yes, I agree it is interesting, but concur with those, like Katherine, who deem it "semi-convincing" at most, in part because Mr. Twist makes no mention of his scattering the ashes, per Jack's request. He states emphatically to Ennis that there is a family plot, "and he's goin in it". So the issue of control, as you, Jeff, remark on, seems paramount here.

[serious crayons]

Mr. Twist makes no mention of his scattering the ashes, per Jack's request. He states emphatically to Ennis that there is a family plot, "and he's goin in it". So the issue of control, as you, Jeff, remark on, seems paramount here.

Good point, Scott. His decision doesn't just punish Ennis, it posthumously punishes Jack, as well.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.

On further reflection, I think the trouble I have with finding this theory even "semi-convincing" is that:

a) If by Ennis rejecting Jack's offer you mean the "proposal" that he and Ennis ranch up together, I don't think we have any evidence to know that John Twist knew that Jack had made that offer to Ennis; and

b) While we know that Jack talked to his father about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, I don't think we have any direct evidence that Jack ever asked Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat with him.

We have to be careful not to confuse what we, from our position of omniscience  , know about the characters, and what they say and do, with what the characters know of each other's statements and actions.

[serious crayons]

a) If by Ennis rejecting Jack's offer you mean the "proposal" that he and Ennis ranch up together, I don't think we have any evidence to know that John Twist knew that Jack had made that offer to Ennis

I think Mr. Twist could probably surmise that if Jack always talked about bringing Ennis up to the ranch, and then Ennis shows up to collect the ashes, that Ennis was not ignorant of Jack's desire that they live together. And in any case, he knows that Jack evidently for years held hopes that Ennis would do it, then suddenly switched to talking about another fella -- suggesting that Jack's hopes had fallen through.

b) While we know that Jack talked to his father about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, I don't think we have any direct evidence that Jack ever asked Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat with him.

But we do know that Jack asked Ennis to ranch up. He may not have mentioned LF specifically, but I don't think it's necessary for him to have done so in order for OMT to realize that Ennis let Jack down. Even if Jack never mentioned LF and therefore OMT is wrongly assuming that he had, that wouldn't affect the plausibility of the theory, because it's OMT's perceptions that are important to it, not reality.

[opinionista]

Yes, I've always thought he looked sad sitting at the table. And the way some people deal with grief is to lash out bitterly and contemptuously -- especially, I'm sure, people who are bitter and contemptuous by nature in the first place.

I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.

I think he wanted Jack home. It was probably a way of showing his love and his pain over losing him. He probably wanted to make clear Jack belonged to his family, therefore he had to be buried at the family plot. About your theory, I don't think Jack's father had that much information about Jack and Ennis's relationship. He obviously knew Jack was queer but I doubt he had details like that. And if he did, I find it hard to believe that he would agree with the idea of two men living together as lovers. I don't think it crossed his mind. In fact, Jack probably talked about Ennis as a friend. His father obviously knew there was more to it but I don't think Jack told him Ennis was his lover or that he had intentions of living with him as a couple. He probably talked about giving Ennis a job or something at the ranch or maybe as a friend willing to help around.