Author Topic: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17  (Read 84354 times)

Offline Cameron

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,747
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2007, 12:00:48 am »
I think Ennis was sad not depressed, huge difference.

Yes there is a big difference but to me the lake scene and especially the bus station, it just looked liked real depression to me. 

By then Ennis seemed to be incapable of living, like he was going through the motions, especially at the bus station.

I mean he wasn't even at the bar, because there were people at the bar, and he couldn't eat.

IMO those were signs of depression, but then again just MHO.

(Although I do agree that Lightening flats was grief and sadness)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 12:03:35 am by marlb42 »



Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2007, 04:13:59 am »
Wow!  There are some really excellent points being made here.  I *love* the dual interpretation of Ennis affixing the numbers to the mailbox - that's brilliant, and like Amanda points out, ambiguous, probably intentionally.  I see dual interpretations and ambiguity pretty much everywhere I look, though.  And I change my mind, depending on how I'm feeling when I watch.

I tend to think Ennis found some measure of peace at the end.  To me, the shrine of the postcard, the bloody shirts (reversed!), and 'I swear' combine to tell me that Ennis has come to terms with who he is and with what he and Jack meant to each other.  His willingness to skip the roundup and attend Junior's wedding supports this - Ennis has come to understand what it is to love.  He can directly relate to what a wedding symbolizes (He had no clue when he himself was 19.).  Further, he appreciates what it means that Junior is able to celebrate her love openly - an experience he and Jack were not destined to have.

Keeping the shrine in the closet (movie) alludes to gay people having to hide their identity (obviously), but people also keep their most precious possessions hidden in safe places.  Keeping a treasured memory private gives it a power that may dissipate when it's shared with the world.  Again - a dual interpretation.

I feel the same way about the open window...there's the obvious door shutting/window opening interpretation.  When we see the wind across the field, we think of Jack.  Ennis is still in the trailer, but at least he is looking out that window.  Regret?  Certainly.  Future?  Possibly.

Obviously there's a great deal of sadness throughout Ennis' whole life - he tried not to be a 'sad daddy' with his daughters.  But somehow I don't see depression at the end, in the way we usually think of depression.  There's certainly some apathy with respect to his physical comfort:  'Don't have nothing, don't need nothing.'  But is it really apathy? or contentment in a minimalist sense?  He's lost what was most precious to him, so everything else necessarily pales in comparison.

Quote
In fact I think that is why Mrs. Twist does put her hand to her throat, not because of Mr. Twist but because in looking into Ennis's eyes after he finds the shirts she now understands everything between Jack and Ennis, and she feels Ennis's true grief and she is feeling the pain of his pain.

I completely agree that Jack's mother understands the depth of Ennis' grief in Lightning Flat.  To me, her hand on her throat is a physical manifestation of this understanding - that the depth of her (and Ennis') pain cannot be articulated.  Ennis only manages a respectful nod and a mumbled 'Thank you for this', indicating the shirts.  But his eyes convey his gratitude more than any words could ever manage.  Alternate interpretation:  living with OMT has caused her to gauge her words carefully.  Hell, there's a kitchen scale on the counter - they live a measured existence!  Mrs. Twist may want to contradict her husband about the ashes but doesn't dare.

Quote
(Another question, why does he now have a fancy knife set, when before he could barely even eat? I have been wondering about this.)

I've thought and thought and I have no idea what the knives mean.  At least they're real knives instead of electric ones!  Perhaps we're meant to remember Jack's confrontation with L.D. - a tribute to Jack finding his voice and standing up to his father-in-law vs. Monroe's milquetoast reaction to confrontation in his home.  Is there a possibility that Ennis may find his own voice?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 01:03:21 pm by Lynne »
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2007, 08:30:25 pm »
In fact I have been rewatching Lightning Flats and if possible it seems that Ennis is even more distraught and in a greater state of grief as he left then I even originally thought.  In fact I think that is why Mrs. Twist does put her hand to her throat, not because of Mr. Twist but because in looking into Ennis's eyes after he finds the shirts she now understands everything between Jack and Ennis, and she feels Ennis's true grief and she is feeling the pain of his pain.

This is a great observation, or way to interpret this gesture by Mrs. Twist.  I've never heard it described that way before.  But, you're right... her reaction probably is partially based on what she now has confirmed about Ennis and the pain she sees in his eyes, etc.  But,  I think her reaction is simultaneously in response to Mr. Twist's denial of Jack's final wish.  I think both things are tearing at Mrs. Twist.

And, I certainly don't think it would be improbable for Ennis to be experiencing a kind of depression towards the end of the film.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Phillip Dampier

  • Mayor - BetterMost, Wyoming
  • Town Administration
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,347
    • BetterMost
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2007, 01:00:12 pm »
As for the postcards writing, I think they didn't write long letters because, unlike women, men in general don't do that. At least I've never met any man who would write a long, detailed letter, unless they're at war.

:)

I think this is often true, but not always the case.  When one of my closest friends irritated me with a whole series of events which threatened the friendship, I sat down and composed at least a five page letter putting my feelings and arguments down on paper.  I already have a tendency to produce incredibly long messages anyway, so for me, five pages isn't out of line.  And I have done that with other people as well, usually as a last resort when talking doesn't work.  My friends immediately recognize "the Phil talk" or "the Phil letter" as being a clear warning sign there is a lecture or more or less final warning coming their way about something which they ignore at their peril.  It's not a common practice with my male friends, and a lot of straight ones have even dumped "you're worse than my girlfriend" on me after getting one.

Sometimes, a heartfelt well-composed letter can cut through the noise and be better understood than side comments or a phone call.  But I could imagine Jack and Ennis doing nothing of the sort.  Well, I could imagine Jack -possibly- doing it at some point.  As I've mentioned before, I'm sure Ma Bell was very upset over the fact neither let their fingers to the walking and picked up the phone and talked to one another.  Rates are lower after 9pm!  Dramatic effect for the filmmakers I'm sure, although one could believe Ennis didn't have a phone at times, and considering Jack had trouble tracking Ennis down after the divorce, that could partially explain it.

You're a part of our family - BetterMost, Wyoming

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2007, 01:04:32 pm »
Twenty, 25, and 30 years ago I used to be a great writer of long letters--and that was back in the days when it was still done by hand, with a pen, on real paper!  :o  ;D  :laugh:

Now I just wonder how the heck I had the time. ...  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2007, 01:52:23 pm »
Twenty, 25, and 30 years ago I used to be a great writer of long letters--and that was back in the days when it was still done by hand, with a pen, on real paper!  :o  ;D  :laugh:

Now I just wonder how the heck I had the time. ...  :-\

No e-mail. E-mail (and other electronic communication) has replaced letters for me.

(You lovely people are the recipients of all those letters I should be sending to my high school friends. Aren't you all lucky. ;D )
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2007, 02:26:44 pm »
No e-mail. E-mail (and other electronic communication) has replaced letters for me.

Me, too. My handwriting is shot from years of taking notes, and I can't compose anything without deleting and adding and cutting and pasting. So if I were to write a letter I would do it on the computer anyway. And if I've gone that far, why spend 39 cents and wait two days for it to get there, when I can send it for free in two seconds and maybe even get a response by the end of the day?

The only personal mail I send these days are birthday, thank-you and sympathy cards.

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2007, 02:31:50 pm »
:)

I think this is often true, but not always the case.  When one of my closest friends irritated me with a whole series of events which threatened the friendship, I sat down and composed at least a five page letter putting my feelings and arguments down on paper.  I already have a tendency to produce incredibly long messages anyway, so for me, five pages isn't out of line.  And I have done that with other people as well, usually as a last resort when talking doesn't work.  My friends immediately recognize "the Phil talk" or "the Phil letter" as being a clear warning sign there is a lecture or more or less final warning coming their way about something which they ignore at their peril.  It's not a common practice with my male friends, and a lot of straight ones have even dumped "you're worse than my girlfriend" on me after getting one.

Sometimes, a heartfelt well-composed letter can cut through the noise and be better understood than side comments or a phone call.  But I could imagine Jack and Ennis doing nothing of the sort.  Well, I could imagine Jack -possibly- doing it at some point.  As I've mentioned before, I'm sure Ma Bell was very upset over the fact neither let their fingers to the walking and picked up the phone and talked to one another.  Rates are lower after 9pm!  Dramatic effect for the filmmakers I'm sure, although one could believe Ennis didn't have a phone at times, and considering Jack had trouble tracking Ennis down after the divorce, that could partially explain it.


I wish all the boyfriends I had had throughout my life were like you Phillip. The longest letter I received was from one of them who lived away from me but it wasn't exactly a letter since he draw everything he wanted to tell me. He's a professional cartoonist. It was cool though, but it wasn't an actual letter but some sort of a personal long comic strip.

As for Ennis and Jack, I don't see them writing long letters to each other.  Remember, they were "both high school dropouts, country boys, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life." And Ennis in particular didn't make it to be a sophomore and "was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog." That description IMO doesn't fit a person who would write long letters. In fact, that's part of their tragedy, that they never spoke (out loud or in writing) about their feelings not even about the sex, until later in their lives when Jack couldn't take it anymore, and it was too late by then.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2007, 02:50:14 pm »
Remember, they were "both high school dropouts, country boys, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life." And Ennis in particular didn't make it to be a sophomore and "was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog."

Ironically, in the movie, Ennis is the better speller.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2007, 03:33:19 pm »
Ironically, in the movie, Ennis is the better speller.

Which actually makes me feel even sorrier for Jack -- Lureen's got a college degree, and Jack can't spell "you're" correctly. Probably yet another way that Jack felt alone down there.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.