Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?

[mvansand76]

I have wondered about this from the first time I saw the movie. Jack comes to Riverton after Ennis' divorce and assumes this is it: they are going to live their lives together. When that doesn't happen he heads out to Mexico. But is this trip about revenge (I'll show you what happens when you turn me down) or is it about need (right now, he isn't going to get sex from Ennis, so he heads to Mexico for that). I always think it's the first one, because it's not the sex that Jack drives all those hundreds of miles for, it's that sweet life with Ennis. I have always thought it was strange that the Mexico Sequence was right after the Jack Driving to Riverton After The Divorce Sequence because this would suggest strongly that Jack was in it for the sex. Anybody?

[Aussie Chris]

I think that if it was about revenge then Jack would have raised the issue before the confrontation at the lake (where he's not really given a choice but to confess the trip to Mexico).  On the other hand I agree that sex is not his primary motivator, but the desparate need for intimacy is.  I could imagine that he learns the hard way in Mexico that sex and intimacy can be polar opposites when you don't care for the person your with.  That's the thing about being gay, sex is too easy and love is too hard.

[Toast]

I have never considered revenge as being part of the Mexican trip that we see.
Jack has just been turfed out for the weekend,
He realizes that Ennis has more than a family preventing them from being a male-male couple.  So now he has a couple of days to kill, days that he desperately wanted to include some closeness and affection. 
Can he go back to Lureen and cry his heart out.  NO !!
So he heads off to where he knows he can be discreet.  But his attitude while there in Mexico isn't "I'll show the whoresonofabitch that I can have a good time".  His attitude was one of need and loneliness.  And he found out that what Chris says, is correct.

That's the thing about being gay, sex is too easy and love is too hard.

I cannot think of Jack as a revenge oriented or spiteful guy.

He was lonely, rejected and in need of a friend, even if he had to pay for the friendship.   When I see that scene, I always hope that the Mexican was a good listener.  Because I can see Jack talking more than fucking that night.

[Momof2]

I think it was done out of anger and revenge.  As I have said in another post, I do not think it was ever about just the sex.  He would not have hung on and had that much hope for sex.  I think he was devastated and it was more of a "I'll show him."  How many people have done stupid things because they were mad only to regret it.  I also think when he metioned it at the lake he was doing it more or less to make Ennis jealous.  I think Jack thought maybe if Ennis thinks he has a little competition he will come to his senses and realize that they were meant to be together.  Ennis just as any lover scorned reacted in an extreme anger.  As long as Jack was having sex with his wife or any other woman it was ok, but if it were another man then that was a different story.  I think because of the fact of how they met and how they came together that Ennis new it was something major.  He would not stand for the man he loved against all social opinions to be with another man.

[moremojo]

That's the thing about being gay, sex is too easy and love is too hard.

Chris, you have just encapsulated my own perception about the frequent loneliness of the gay male experience. Except I find it hard to even go for the sex--sex without an emotional connection feels so empty to me. What I really yearn for (as Jack did) is male intimacy, involving the spiritual, emotional, and physical planes, and this kind of connection is relatively rare. Jack's loneliness and isolation is an aspect of his character with which I strongly identify.

So segueing from this, I think Jack's motive in going to Mexico had less to do with revenge than with a hungry search for the intimacy and closeness that he wanted from Ennis, but of which he felt deprived. It turned out to be a futile search, but his heart propelled him to try nonetheless (Jack, as Jake has stated, is characterized by his willingness to try and try again).

[Jeff Wrangler]

Tell you what, I think that Jack's trip to Mexico that we see after the Ennis divorce debacle was his first trip to Mexico, but I don't think it was his only trip to Mexico.

As much as I love Jack, as much as I hurt for him after the post-divorce scene, to some extent his going off to Mexico makes me think of a little kid who hasn't gotten his way. In that sense I agree with Momof2's "I'll show him" comment.

However, I've also come to feel that there is more than one layer to Jack's eventual remark to Ennis, at the lake, that he can't make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks once or twice a year. I think Jack means this literally--he has a stronger need for male-male sex than Ennis, who is able to wait for his meetings with Jack--and thus I think Jack's trips to Mexico continued over the years, after the one we see following Ennis's divorce. But I also think the deeper meaning of the remark is that Jack needs the emotional intimacy, and he's not getting this from one or two fishing trips a year with Ennis. I think is what is behind Jack's comment the night before the confrontation that sometimes he misses Ennis so bad he can hardly stand it.

[Marge_Innavera]

He was lonely, rejected and in need of a friend, even if he had to pay for the friendship.   When I see that scene, I always hope that the Mexican was a good listener.  Because I can see Jack talking more than fucking that night.

My take on that scene is that it was partly out of anger, but even more a need for at least imagined intimacy. The world's so-called oldest profession (probably flint-knapping in reality) wouldn't exist without that kind of need, although that's more blatant in prostitution's middle and upper classes.

There was probably sexual frustration there too, though if he did take up with Randall those Mexico trips probably ended around 1978. But if anger was a factor it isn't surprising - whatever his motives Ennis essentially turned him away "like a door-to-door salesman", to quote a fanfic. That's the point where their relationship starts to go downhill fast.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Except I find it hard to even go for the sex--sex without an emotional connection feels so empty to me. What I really yearn for (as Jack did) is male intimacy, involving the spiritual, emotional, and physical planes, and this kind of connection is relatively rare. Jack's loneliness and isolation is an aspect of his character with which I strongly identify.

Me, too.

Hey, Scott? Will you marry me? 

What really frustrates me is that I seem to know an awful lot of gay men who don't get this and don't understand how I feel. As long as they're getting laid, they're happy. I admit that there are times I envy them their emotionally uncomplicated lives, but such is not my lot in life. 

[moremojo]

What really frustrates me is that I seem to know an awful lot of gay men who don't get this and don't understand how I feel. As long as they're getting laid, they're happy. I admit that there are times I envy them their emotionally uncomplicated lives, but such is not my lot in life. 

I wish I could be more carefree in my sex life than I so far have been, because physical intimacy is a kind of intimacy, and is valuable. But there's just some inner part of me that resists no-strings-attached sex--I've tried it, and I either end up feeling hollow and lonelier than before, or emotionally/psychically bruised.

Now, I wish to affirm that I do not judge others who pursue this path, and like you, even envy such folks at times. And, as some here may know, I enjoy pornography and actively consume that form of entertainment, and such product is replete with people enjoying sex without necessarily feeling emotional attachment to their partner(s). And what they are creating really feels like a gift--they are giving some pleasure to the rest of the world. So I bless these folks, and thank them, but at the same time realize that I would probably never feel comfortable following their example, either onscreen or in my own private path.

[mvansand76]

However, I've also come to feel that there is more than one layer to Jack's eventual remark to Ennis, at the lake, that he can't make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks once or twice a year. I think Jack means this literally--he has a stronger need for male-male sex than Ennis, who is able to wait for his meetings with Jack--and thus I think Jack's trips to Mexico continued over the years, after the one we see following Ennis's divorce. But I also think the deeper meaning of the remark is that Jack needs the emotional intimacy, and he's not getting this from one or two fishing trips a year with Ennis. I think is what is behind Jack's comment the night before the confrontation that sometimes he misses Ennis so bad he can hardly stand it.

I agree, I always saw through that 'high altitude fucks' remark, it being more about the company of Ennis that he misses, this was just Jack's way of making Ennis understand what he needs, the companionship, the emotional intimacy as you call it (that everybody really looks for), that it's not just about the sex. Funny way of putting it of course, but that's Jack for you...

[serious crayons]

So in a way, Jack himself is blurring the line between sex and intimacy. Certainly choosing the former in lieu of the latter, maybe in his desperation ignoring the fact that they aren't really interchangable.

Because I do think desperation -- rather than revenge or even sheer need -- is his motivator. And like Jeff, I don't think this was his last trip to Mexico. (Or else in response to Ennis' question in the lakeside argument he might have replied, "Hell yes, I went to Mexico once about seven years ago. Is that a f'in problem?")

[Momof2]

I have always thouht that Mexico was a reoccuring trip.  I do think part of his going was "I'll show him."  I also strongly beleive he was went out of desperation, looking for the intimacy he couuld not have with Ennis.  As I have never been with a prostitute or have never had much casual sex, I do not know if he would have ever found that.  I guess for a few fleeting moments he did.  It is so sad.  But I guess it is like any relationship, alot of times when something is missing people go looking.  That is in any relationship.  I think that when an affair happens for emotional fulfillment it is more dangerous than one for sex.  Those are the ones that destroy people.  I love Ennis but I swear if I could I would choke him or slap some sense into him at the post divorce scene.  I wish Jack would have said, Well, I am not leaving until we get a few things worked out.  Tell the girls what ever you want.  I will sleep on the couch. I know alot of people that have meaningless sex.  They say it is fun and they enjoy it but I know that deep down, like Jack they are searching for something other than sex. 

Is it true that gay men are promiscous?  Someone made the statement in another post that gay women have more long term relationships than gay men.  Also on 48 hours the other night they were looking at gay people.  They were doing a story on if being gay was genetic or nurturing.  This man that has done alot of research said that the more older brothers a man has the more likely he is to be gay.  One researcher went on to say that when a woman carries a male child the first time, that her body recognizes it as foreign.  (I am a scientist) so bear in mind.  She then makes antibodies to the "male" part of the fetus i.e. hormones.  If she becomes preg again with a male her antibody attacks the male hormones thus resulting in a decrease in testosterone therefore making the child more likely to be gay.  Any ideas???  I just thought it was interesting.  Then my husband who is by no means "familiar" with anything to do with being gay, said "Why do they have to rationalize everything.  Why cant they just accept that people are the way they are.  They do not go out looking at why someone is straight". 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Is it true that gay men are promiscous?  Someone made the statement in another post that gay women have more long term relationships than gay men.

Those are certainly the stereotypes. I won't speak for lesbians, but as far as gay men are concerned, it seems to me that there is always some kernel of truth behind any stereotype--though for every gay man who fits the stereotype, undoubtedly you can find many who do not.

[serious crayons]

Is it true that gay men are promiscous?  Someone made the statement in another post that gay women have more long term relationships than gay men. 

I don't know about gay men and women in particular. But I will point out that I think men in general tend to be more promiscuous than women. Emphasis on the "in general" -- obviously there are lots of exceptions.

If you believe in evolutionary psychology, it makes sense: men are more likely to have their genes carried into the next generation if they spread their seed as widely as possible. Women can only have one baby at a time, so they're more likely to have their genes carried on if they nurture their offpsring to maturity (so the offspring can forward the genes on to yet another generation). And children are more likely to survive if they're cared for by two people in a stable relationship. That distinction, IMO, is the key to understanding a number of gender differences.

[nakymaton]

I thought the Mexico trip(s) (yes, I think there were probably many) were about loneliness, about substituting sexual intimacy for emotional intimacy, too. In fact... well, there's a lot I've been wanting to talk about, dealing with sex vs love and the structure of the short story and why I find the story so emotionally devastating, but I don't have time to do it now.

But there's something else that intrigues me about this thread. Several people have mentioned anger and/or revenge as playing a part in Jack's reason for going to Mexico... and all of those people have been women. Why? Is this part of the female psyche that I don't understand (and I'm a woman, too, but this surprises me)?

[Jeff Wrangler]

But there's something else that intrigues me about this thread. Several people have mentioned anger and/or revenge as playing a part in Jack's reason for going to Mexico... and all of those people have been women. Why? Is this part of the female psyche that I don't understand (and I'm a woman, too, but this surprises me)?

Actually, although I didn't state it explicitly, when I wrote that Jack's reaction in running off to Mexico reminded me of a little kid who hadn't gotten his way, I meant to imply some involvement of anger in his action (think: tantrum).

[VLN_BBMFAN]

I think tantrum is a not exactly inaccurate, but is a bit oversimplifed. This is not the first time Jack has heard the word 'NO' from Ennis, but this is the first time that it wasn't complicated by the 'Ennis has a wife and family that depend on him' delusion. There would have had no doubts that Lureen/Bobby would have been well taken care of if Jack left, but there was no such family/monetary safety net for Ennis to know would catch Alma/his girls. That would have been enough to sustain Jack through the years -- Ennis was stuck and he couldn't just abandon his responsibilities, especially to his girls. When Ennis turns Jack away after the divorce, Jack can no longer deny the real truth -- Ennis isn't going to be with him no matter what. Jack was devastated, not like he couldn't have an ice creme bar before dinner, but like his whole world had just been yanked out from under him. I believe that anger was what got him to Mexico, but once he was there, the man who walked down that alley did not look anything but destroyed and desperate. 

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I think it was a bit of both, and a bit of self medicating too, he needed the realease of being with another man and if he couldn't be with Ennis he did what he could. He couldn't get by on a couple of high altitude fucks every year, he had a need and he wanted Ennis to satisfy it.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think tantrum is a not exactly inaccurate, but is a bit oversimplifed. This is not the first time Jack has heard the word 'NO' from Ennis, but this is the first time that it wasn't complicated by the 'Ennis has a wife and family that depend on him' delusion. There would have had no doubts that Lureen/Bobby would have been well taken care of if Jack left, but there was no such family/monetary safety net for Ennis to know would catch Alma/his girls. That would have been enough to sustain Jack through the years -- Ennis was stuck and he couldn't just abandon his responsibilities, especially to his girls. When Ennis turns Jack away after the divorce, Jack can no longer deny the real truth -- Ennis isn't going to be with him no matter what. Jack was devastated, not like he couldn't have an ice creme bar before dinner, but like his whole world had just been yanked out from under him. I believe that anger was what got him to Mexico, but once he was there, the man who walked down that alley did not look anything but destroyed and desperate. 

I agree with what you say about Jack not being able to deny the truth that Ennis wasn't going to change and build a life a with Jack, but I'm not clear on what you're saying about Ennis's family responsibilities. They didn't end with the divorce. Don't forget the child support.

Yes, tantrum is an oversimplification. I was deliberately oversimplifying to emphasize my point.

[serious crayons]

Ennis's family responsibilities. They didn't end with the divorce. Don't forget the child support.

Ennis' financial responsibilities to his kids wouldn't necessarily preclude his seeing Jack (except at the end, with their plans for August, but that's a particular circumstance). However, living with Jack would mean seriously jeopardizing his relationship with them -- certainly while they were still children, and possibly even beyond.

Back to Jack's motivations for Mexico. I don't think it's revenge, that is, deliberately hurting Ennis (even if Ennis would never find out) to get back at him for hurting Jack. Nor does it seem tantrum-like to me. What it seems more like is a mix of anger, frustration, hearbreak, loneliness, disappointment and desperation. Like, "Well, screw Ennis! I don't need him." Except, of course, he does.

[twistedude]

For Siede, with Love and squalor:

                                  http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3061097/1/

anger, sex, the need to ber loved, and the need to have someone to love. Take it or leave it. There's a sequel too. 2, in fact. It wouldn't KILL you to read them!

[Jeff Wrangler]

Back to Jack's motivations for Mexico. I don't think it's revenge, that is, deliberately hurting Ennis (even if Ennis would never find out) to get back at him for hurting Jack. Nor does it seem tantrum-like to me. What it seems more like is a mix of anger, frustration, hearbreak, loneliness, disappointment and desperation. Like, "Well, screw Ennis! I don't need him." Except, of course, he does.

Essentially I agree with you, Katherine. It's just that to me (granted I'm not a parent), Jack's reaction, tearing off to Mexico, strikes me as, well, tantrum-ish. Even outside of the Brokeback context, I've just always felt that going off and having sex wherever and from whomever you can get it, when you can't get it from the partner you really want, when you are clearly as hurt and upset as Jack, is the adult gay male equivalent of a 2-year-old holding his breath till he turns blue.

And in saying this, I don't in any way intend to minimize Jack's pain, or the fact that what he really needs and wants from Ennis is a whole lot more than just sex. I've just always felt that Jack's reaction is essentially childish. This also doesn't mean I don't hurt for him, 'cause I sure enough do.

[David In Indy]

Melissa -

Actually I always figured it was a little bit of both. But, now that I think about it, you are probably correct. 

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I think Jack was hurt and was looking for a way to make himself feel better. There, I assume, he realized that sex is no substitute for the intimacy he had with Ennis.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I think Jack was hurt and was looking for a way to make himself feel better. There, I assume, he realized that sex is no substitute for the intimacy he had with Ennis.

Well put. Remember the hollow look Jack had? Same as the end of when he was dancing with Lureen.

[nakymaton]

I can see the analogy with a kid who hasn't gotten his way. (Though I know as many adults as children who do things like that... but, yeah, "childish" is a word that could come to mind.)

What's odd about driving to Mexico in a fit of anger, though, is that it's such a damn long drive. (And after a 14-hour drive beforehand!) I mean, why didn't Jack just go to, I don't know, Denver or someplace and pick up somebody for a one-night-stand?

It's just an awful long time to keep a tantrum going.

[nakymaton]

I disagree that he went ‘tearing off.’ As he leaves Ennis, he looks more like a chair’s been knocked out from under him, not like he’s having a tantrum. He might have driven that long distance because in a daze, feeling like he was nothin’ and going nowhere.

It's more the moment after Jack wipes that tear away, when he sets his face and we hear the engine rev, that it seems like he's angry. That's the moment when I can see Jeff's point.

[JT]

I don't think Jack is being childish, vengeful or throwing tandrums.  I just think he's hurt and desparate, so he's trying to fill that sexual need that he didn't get from Ennis.  Jack expects to get the "complete package" when he drives 14 hrs after the divorce scene.  What I mean is that he expects to get love, sex, intimacy--basically a sweet life with Ennis.  But when Ennis turns him away, his world shatterred and dreams crushed.  He has to pick up the pieces alone and sex is a just a piece of that "sweet life".  I don't think that Jack would ever want to hurt Ennis in any way.

[nakymaton]

Yes, you’re right, Mel. And the way he shakes his head--not just getting the tears out of the way, but perhaps also thinking, “No, I won’t dwell on this” or “I won’t let this hurt me”?

I think of that head shake as an attempt to shake off Ennis (or Jack's love for Ennis). A Love That Will Never Grow Old is playing in the background while Jack's crying, too, and I think of that song as encapsulating Jack's feelings about Ennis. (Especially the line that we actually hear -- that smile in your eyes that can light up the night.) Sometimes the music seems to work in the background to express all the mushiness that the characters can't (or won't) put into words, and that seems especially true right there.

And then Jack shakes his head, like he's trying to get rid of it all, the pain and the love and the memory of moments like the dozy embrace and everything.

And then he drives all the way to Mexico for some meaningless sex.

I think that was the first time after the reunion that Jack tried to quit Ennis. So not revenge, and not just about need, too, but also about trying to forget how much he loved Ennis.

[Jeff Wrangler]

What's odd about driving to Mexico in a fit of anger, though, is that it's such a damn long drive. (And after a 14-hour drive beforehand!) I mean, why didn't Jack just go to, I don't know, Denver or someplace and pick up somebody for a one-night-stand?

That's actually a good question--why all the way to Mexico? Maybe Annie Proulx has the answer. Maybe some of the gay men she talked to in the process of writing the story talked about going, or having gone, to Mexico for gay sex.

Although no one in his right mind ought to consider sex with a hustler in a foreign country as a "safe" activity, perhaps "getting it" in Mexico was considered "safer" in the sense that it was perceived there was less a chance you might run into someone who knows you? As in, "Hi, Jack, what are you doing in Denver?"

[Jeff Wrangler]

It's more the moment after Jack wipes that tear away, when he sets his face and we hear the engine rev, that it seems like he's angry. That's the moment when I can see Jeff's point.

Thanks, Mel! That's exactly where I'm coming from! 

[serious crayons]

Although no one in his right mind ought to consider sex with a hustler in a foreign country as a "safe" activity, perhaps "getting it" in Mexico was considered "safer" in the sense that it was perceived there was less a chance you might run into someone who knows you? As in, "Hi, Jack, what are you doing in Denver?"

What happens in Juarez stays in Juarez.

Also, maybe it's easier? I'm just guessing, obviously I have no personal experience. And I do realize there would be ways to find a prostitute in Denver if you wanted to. But are there streets in Denver like the one in Juarez, where all you do is walk along, make eye contact with someone, the guy steps up and says "Senor" and off you go?

Even Ennis had heard Mexico was the place.

And of course, from a storytelling point of view, it wouldn't carry quite the same weight to show Jack wiping away a tear and looking angry and resolute as he passed a roadsign to Colorado.

[Jeff Wrangler]

What happens in Juarez stays in Juarez.

Also, maybe it's easier? I'm just guessing, obviously I have no personal experience. And I do realize there would be ways to find a prostitute in Denver if you wanted to. But are there streets in Denver like the one in Juarez, where all you do is walk along, make eye contact with someone, the guy steps up and says "Senor" and off you go?

Even Ennis had heard Mexico was the place.

And of course, from a storytelling point of view, it wouldn't carry quite the same weight to show Jack wiping away a tear and looking angry and resolute as he passed a roadsign to Colorado.

You're probably right about the "easy" part, Katherine. I'm guessing it would be easier to find it in Denver today than in Ennis and Jack's day? Though it would still be fascinating to know how U.S. cowboys who wanted it on the down-low came to know that Mexico was the place.

[Momof2]

Though it would still be fascinating to know how U.S. cowboys who wanted it on the down-low came to know that Mexico was the place.


I wonder about that too.  Jack and Ennis do not seem to be worldly men.  They pretty much stayed in the same areas.  Then you see Jack go to Mexico for a male prostitute.  Even Ennis knows whats in Mexico for boys like Jack.  Then the whole dope smoking. I know that has been brought up on another thread, but it just seems odd to me.

[serious crayons]

Though it would still be fascinating to know how U.S. cowboys who wanted it on the down-low came to know that Mexico was the place.

Well, I think traditionally Mexico has been the place for a lot of things that are harder to obtain in the U.S.: quickie divorces, marijuana, questionable medical procedures ...

You can walk across a bridge from El Paso to Juarez. Juarez is pretty poor and, according to stereotype, less strictly policed (or at least the law-enforcement is less by-the-book). So from an economic standpoint, industries that cater to American no-nos are probably a natural consequence.

Still, how did Ennis know about it so specifically? I can't imagine his coworkers, when exchanging travel tips, recommending it as a destination for sex tourism. But maybe they would taunt each other with the "You been to Mexico?" line.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Still, how did Ennis know about it so specifically? I can't imagine his coworkers, when exchanging travel tips, recommending it as a destination for sex tourism. But maybe they would taunt each other with the "You been to Mexico?" line.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call it recommending a destination for sex tourism, but I've always assumed that Ennis did pick it up from talk among his coworkers. When I think that Ennis was doing a man's job to support himself at an age when most kids don't even have a driver's license, I've always imagined he picked up a lot of stuff from older coworkers joking and talking about things they probably shouldn't have around a young boy--but I guess you grow up early and quick when you're in a situation like Ennis's. But that doesn't answer the question, How did his coworkers know that Mexico was the place?

[nakymaton]

But that doesn't answer the question, How did his coworkers know that Mexico was the place?

From seasonal agricultural laborers? I don't know much about the history of agricultural laborers in the western US, but I think there may have been more seasonal workers traveling from Mexico and other parts of Latin America than I realize. (I know there are a lot of seasonal agricultural workers today, more than most people think about, even in places that are awfully far from Mexico.) I don't know how much ranches (as opposed to farms) hire seasonal workers -- but we know from AP's "Getting Movied" essay that most sheepherders were Basque and then South American, and that she was worried that it might be historically inaccurate to have a couple Anglo kids herding sheep.

And, yeah, I think Ennis would have been much less sheltered from rumors than, say, his daughters would have been.

[serious crayons]

I lived for a couple of years in a farm town in northern Minnesota. All -- or at least almost all -- of the migrant agricultural workers were Spanish-speaking, and were commonly referred to as Mexicans (though some may have come from Spanish-speaking communities in the southwest U.S., I suppose).

Also, Ennis probably had non-Mexican coworkers who were from the border area and had heard hearsay about what people go to Mexico for. I know that people go to Canada for cheap prescription drugs, though I've never done it myself or talked directly to anyone who has.

[Front-Ranger]

It is sad and ironic but it seems like the thing homophobic men talk about most is homosexuality. Some people focus most on the thing they fear and hate. You want to hear about Hillary Clinton, just dial up Bill O'Reily or what's his name, you know, the drug addict. 

[moremojo]

It is sad and ironic but it seems like the thing homophobic men talk about most is homosexuality. Some people focus most on the thing they fear and hate.

Sure enough...and methinks they focus on what they fear and hate in themselves. Why would a man secure in his own heterosexuality get unduly worked up about the issue, unless maybe he became the unwelcome object of a gay man's attentions? And even then, why can't a straight man regard the admiration of another man as a compliment rather than a threat? One should be wary of overgeneralizations, but I perceive that women tend to be a lot less hung up on the issue of sexual identity than men, and are more open to experimentation, and I think this has a whole lot to do with the differences between how men and women are socialized in our culture.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It is sad and ironic but it seems like the thing homophobic men talk about most is homosexuality. Some people focus most on the thing they fear and hate. You want to hear about Hillary Clinton, just dial up Bill O'Reily or what's his name, you know, the drug addict. 

Rush Limbaugh? 

I think you're absolutely right about the amount of time homophobic men spend talking about homosexuality. Maybe that's why Ennis didn't need an instruction manual in TS1: He'd heard coworkers talking about it so much that he already knew what to do.

[twistedude]

O.K. Don't read them What the fuck do I care! After all, why should i be entitled to an opinion on this subject?

[Front-Ranger]

Julie, I apologize, I am not a fanfiction reader, but if I were I would definitely read "For Swede with love and squalor." Even the title is very interesting!! However, it is all I can do to leaf through my New Yorker every week as I've been doing religiously for more than 10 years. I'm always looking to see if Annie has a new story!!

[Momof2]

Sure enough...and methinks they focus on what they fear and hate in themselves. Why would a man secure in his own heterosexuality get unduly worked up about the issue, unless maybe he became the unwelcome object of a gay man's attentions? And even then, why can't a straight man regard the admiration of another man as a compliment rather than a threat? One should be wary of overgeneralizations, but I perceive that women tend to be a lot less hung up on the issue of sexual identity than men, and are more open to experimentation, and I think this has a whole lot to do with the differences between how men and women are socialized in our culture.

I sometimes ask my husband if he thinks a man is good looking and he will look at me crazy.  I asked him had he never thought a man was good looking.  He said he guess he never really thought about.  I make comments all the time about how beautiful a woman is and he sometimes thinks so other times not.  I guess it is what a person's opinion as to what beauty is.  So I guess if a straight man never thinks of men as good looking it would seem odd to them that another man would think they are beautiful.

My husband and I were at the mall one day.  I think my husband is an incredibly sexy good looking man.  We walked by a group of young men and one of them made a comment about how good looking my husband was.  Also a comment about his butt.  My husband turned around and said dumb kids.  I think he kind of got a kick out of it.  He tried to act like he didnt.  I so "Oh honey, take it as a complement.  Who cares who notices how beautiful you are.  He just gave one of his little this is making me uncomfortable smile. 

[Front-Ranger]

Thank you, Scott and Jeff, for saying this more clearly than I could. Yeah, Rush, how could I forget! (easily).

[moremojo]

I sometimes ask my husband if he thinks a man is good looking and he will look at me crazy.  I asked him had he never thought a man was good looking.  He said he guess he never really thought about.  I make comments all the time about how beautiful a woman is and he sometimes thinks so other times not.  I guess it is what a person's opinion as to what beauty is.  So I guess if a straight man never thinks of men as good looking it would seem odd to them that another man would think they are beautiful.

I have a male heterosexual friend who has told me that he recognizes beauty in men's faces, but feels no erotic allure in them. This seems analogous to the admiration many gay men have for women's beauty and grace, without feeling a concomitant carnal impulse when confronted with these qualities.

A first cousin of mine once insisted, in our adolescence, that he had no opinion whatsoever in whether a male was good-looking or not, and that this extended even to himself. I accepted his statement at face value at the time, but eventually came to feel it lacked credibility. How could a man groom himself, make sartorial choices, and generally present himself to the world without sharing some idea of male attractiveness imbibed by the larger culture? The late cultural critic Philip Core argued that no one looks more enviously at men than other men, and I suspect this trait extends to men generally, not just those who happen to be gay or bi.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I have a male heterosexual friend who has told me that he recognizes beauty in men's faces, but feels no erotic allure in them. This seems analogous to the admiration many gay men have for women's beauty and grace, without feeling a concomitant carnal impulse when confronted with these qualities.

A first cousin of mine once insisted, in our adolescence, that he had no opinion whatsoever in whether a male was good-looking or not, and that this extended even to himself. I accepted his statement at face value at the time, but eventually came to feel it lacked credibility. How could a man groom himself, make sartorial choices, and generally present himself to the world without sharing some idea of male attractiveness imbibed by the larger culture? The late cultural critic Philip Core argued that no one looks more enviously at men than other men, and I suspect this trait extends to men generally, not just those who happen to be gay or bi.

I'm not familiar with Philip Core, but that makes sense to me!

[moremojo]

I'm not familiar with Philip Core, but that makes sense to me!

Philip Core was the author of one of my favorite books, Camp: The Lie That Tells the Truth (Plexus, 1984), an idiosyncratically inflected exploration on that elusive yet immensely rich cultural category, and from which the quote I paraphrased was taken. Core's book is elegant, scholarly yet always entertaining, and itself highly camp.

[Bucky]

I agree that Jack probably went to Mexico to get revenge for the way Ennis turned him away after Jack drove to Riverton, Wyoming thinking Ennis wanted to live with him after his divorce came through.  It is wierd but the one guy in my life that I really loved once upon a time was the one that I didn't think was sexy at least not for a long time.  It was eventually his sweetness that drew me into a relationship.  The truth is he was the only male that I have ever had sex with in all of these forty something years of my life.  

We now exchange emails on a regular basis but the love is gone that we had once.  I now know that it would be as hard for me as it would for him to rekindle anything.  I guess there has been too much water that has gone under the bridge.  He still likes to get my advice on matters of importance to him but I won't give him any advice.  If he makes any mistakes they will be his mistakes not my mine.  I suppose that my giving him advice back in college may have done more to damage my relationship with him than anything else including his overbearing father.  

People say that absence makes the heart grow fonder but I think absence and time have done more to ruin my relationship than anything else.  I have a feeling that I could get my old boyfriend back now if I really wanted to get him back or at least he asked if I would like to rekindle or restart what we had in college.  The problem is with me in that I don't want to go back twenty two years and start over again.  Also the way our relationship ended back then caused me to lose the element of trust which is necessary for a heterosexual  or homosexual relationship.  

I feel  really sorry for Jack because Jack couldn't see when enough is enough.  He had to know that his dreams with Ennis couldn't happen.  Ennis loved Jack but love is not enough if Ennis is going to refuse to do anything about it.  It was Jack who kept trying to make it work.  Ennis' attitude was like "here I am if you want to be with me. Right here in Riverton, Wyoming and I am never going any place else."  For Jack to love Ennis so much that he would give Ennis twenty years of his life of a sneaking love on the side that no one could ever know about was indeed very sad.  I couldn't do that.  

[Front-Ranger]

Bucky, it sounds to me like there is something unresolved that is keeping you from moving on to a new relationship. Twenty years is too long an interval between relationships, IMHO. What's keeping you?

As for the original question, I vote for need, rather than revenge.

[Bucky]

There probably is something that is unresolved and getting daily emails from my ex-partner of twenty years ago is not helping matters.  He has to be having troubles with his own relationships to want to get back together with me after twenty years.  Of course the answer has to be no on my part and I know that but I was very fond of him twenty two years ago.  I will think about what you said.  I would rather have no love at all than to be with someone that I can't trust and plus he has a lot of baggage that I don't want to deal with.

[Front-Ranger]

I was reading the lyrics to "Sweet Melissa" that moremojo just posted, and somehow they made me think of you.

[Front-Ranger]

...I do realize there would be ways to find a prostitute in Denver if you wanted to. But are there streets in Denver like the one in Juarez, where all you do is walk along, make eye contact with someone, the guy steps up and says "Senor" and off you go?


It wouldn't carry quite the same weight to show Jack wiping away a tear and looking angry and resolute as he passed a roadsign to Colorado.

I just saw this Katherine! Maybe we should do some research, LOL??