Author Topic: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?  (Read 18980 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2006, 12:11:54 pm »
So in a way, Jack himself is blurring the line between sex and intimacy. Certainly choosing the former in lieu of the latter, maybe in his desperation ignoring the fact that they aren't really interchangable.

Because I do think desperation -- rather than revenge or even sheer need -- is his motivator. And like Jeff, I don't think this was his last trip to Mexico. (Or else in response to Ennis' question in the lakeside argument he might have replied, "Hell yes, I went to Mexico once about seven years ago. Is that a f'in problem?")

Offline Momof2

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2006, 12:40:41 pm »
I have always thouht that Mexico was a reoccuring trip.  I do think part of his going was "I'll show him."  I also strongly beleive he was went out of desperation, looking for the intimacy he couuld not have with Ennis.  As I have never been with a prostitute or have never had much casual sex, I do not know if he would have ever found that.  I guess for a few fleeting moments he did.  It is so sad.  But I guess it is like any relationship, alot of times when something is missing people go looking.  That is in any relationship.  I think that when an affair happens for emotional fulfillment it is more dangerous than one for sex.  Those are the ones that destroy people.  I love Ennis but I swear if I could I would choke him or slap some sense into him at the post divorce scene.  I wish Jack would have said, Well, I am not leaving until we get a few things worked out.  Tell the girls what ever you want.  I will sleep on the couch. I know alot of people that have meaningless sex.  They say it is fun and they enjoy it but I know that deep down, like Jack they are searching for something other than sex. 

Is it true that gay men are promiscous?  Someone made the statement in another post that gay women have more long term relationships than gay men.  Also on 48 hours the other night they were looking at gay people.  They were doing a story on if being gay was genetic or nurturing.  This man that has done alot of research said that the more older brothers a man has the more likely he is to be gay.  One researcher went on to say that when a woman carries a male child the first time, that her body recognizes it as foreign.  (I am a scientist) so bear in mind.  She then makes antibodies to the "male" part of the fetus i.e. hormones.  If she becomes preg again with a male her antibody attacks the male hormones thus resulting in a decrease in testosterone therefore making the child more likely to be gay.  Any ideas???  I just thought it was interesting.  Then my husband who is by no means "familiar" with anything to do with being gay, said "Why do they have to rationalize everything.  Why cant they just accept that people are the way they are.  They do not go out looking at why someone is straight". 
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2006, 01:11:45 pm »
Is it true that gay men are promiscous?  Someone made the statement in another post that gay women have more long term relationships than gay men.

Those are certainly the stereotypes. I won't speak for lesbians, but as far as gay men are concerned, it seems to me that there is always some kernel of truth behind any stereotype--though for every gay man who fits the stereotype, undoubtedly you can find many who do not.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2006, 01:19:42 pm »
Is it true that gay men are promiscous?  Someone made the statement in another post that gay women have more long term relationships than gay men. 

I don't know about gay men and women in particular. But I will point out that I think men in general tend to be more promiscuous than women. Emphasis on the "in general" -- obviously there are lots of exceptions.

If you believe in evolutionary psychology, it makes sense: men are more likely to have their genes carried into the next generation if they spread their seed as widely as possible. Women can only have one baby at a time, so they're more likely to have their genes carried on if they nurture their offpsring to maturity (so the offspring can forward the genes on to yet another generation). And children are more likely to survive if they're cared for by two people in a stable relationship. That distinction, IMO, is the key to understanding a number of gender differences.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2006, 01:59:17 pm »
I thought the Mexico trip(s) (yes, I think there were probably many) were about loneliness, about substituting sexual intimacy for emotional intimacy, too. In fact... well, there's a lot I've been wanting to talk about, dealing with sex vs love and the structure of the short story and why I find the story so emotionally devastating, but I don't have time to do it now.

But there's something else that intrigues me about this thread. Several people have mentioned anger and/or revenge as playing a part in Jack's reason for going to Mexico... and all of those people have been women. Why? Is this part of the female psyche that I don't understand (and I'm a woman, too, but this surprises me)?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2006, 02:57:40 pm »
But there's something else that intrigues me about this thread. Several people have mentioned anger and/or revenge as playing a part in Jack's reason for going to Mexico... and all of those people have been women. Why? Is this part of the female psyche that I don't understand (and I'm a woman, too, but this surprises me)?

Actually, although I didn't state it explicitly, when I wrote that Jack's reaction in running off to Mexico reminded me of a little kid who hadn't gotten his way, I meant to imply some involvement of anger in his action (think: tantrum).
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline VLN_BBMFAN

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2006, 03:46:51 pm »
I think tantrum is a not exactly inaccurate, but is a bit oversimplifed. This is not the first time Jack has heard the word 'NO' from Ennis, but this is the first time that it wasn't complicated by the 'Ennis has a wife and family that depend on him' delusion. There would have had no doubts that Lureen/Bobby would have been well taken care of if Jack left, but there was no such family/monetary safety net for Ennis to know would catch Alma/his girls. That would have been enough to sustain Jack through the years -- Ennis was stuck and he couldn't just abandon his responsibilities, especially to his girls. When Ennis turns Jack away after the divorce, Jack can no longer deny the real truth -- Ennis isn't going to be with him no matter what. Jack was devastated, not like he couldn't have an ice creme bar before dinner, but like his whole world had just been yanked out from under him. I believe that anger was what got him to Mexico, but once he was there, the man who walked down that alley did not look anything but destroyed and desperate. 

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2006, 04:07:08 pm »
I think it was a bit of both, and a bit of self medicating too, he needed the realease of being with another man and if he couldn't be with Ennis he did what he could. He couldn't get by on a couple of high altitude fucks every year, he had a need and he wanted Ennis to satisfy it.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2006, 04:12:23 pm »
I think tantrum is a not exactly inaccurate, but is a bit oversimplifed. This is not the first time Jack has heard the word 'NO' from Ennis, but this is the first time that it wasn't complicated by the 'Ennis has a wife and family that depend on him' delusion. There would have had no doubts that Lureen/Bobby would have been well taken care of if Jack left, but there was no such family/monetary safety net for Ennis to know would catch Alma/his girls. That would have been enough to sustain Jack through the years -- Ennis was stuck and he couldn't just abandon his responsibilities, especially to his girls. When Ennis turns Jack away after the divorce, Jack can no longer deny the real truth -- Ennis isn't going to be with him no matter what. Jack was devastated, not like he couldn't have an ice creme bar before dinner, but like his whole world had just been yanked out from under him. I believe that anger was what got him to Mexico, but once he was there, the man who walked down that alley did not look anything but destroyed and desperate. 

I agree with what you say about Jack not being able to deny the truth that Ennis wasn't going to change and build a life a with Jack, but I'm not clear on what you're saying about Ennis's family responsibilities. They didn't end with the divorce. Don't forget the child support.

Yes, tantrum is an oversimplification. I was deliberately oversimplifying to emphasize my point.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Mexico all about revenge or about need?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2006, 04:37:34 pm »
Ennis's family responsibilities. They didn't end with the divorce. Don't forget the child support.

Ennis' financial responsibilities to his kids wouldn't necessarily preclude his seeing Jack (except at the end, with their plans for August, but that's a particular circumstance). However, living with Jack would mean seriously jeopardizing his relationship with them -- certainly while they were still children, and possibly even beyond.

Back to Jack's motivations for Mexico. I don't think it's revenge, that is, deliberately hurting Ennis (even if Ennis would never find out) to get back at him for hurting Jack. Nor does it seem tantrum-like to me. What it seems more like is a mix of anger, frustration, hearbreak, loneliness, disappointment and desperation. Like, "Well, screw Ennis! I don't need him." Except, of course, he does.