What would you like Ang to comment on?

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I would like to hazard a guess on the "milk and water" comment by Ang. We know that Jack is represented by water sometimes, since he brings water to the camp, sings "Water Walking Jesus" and washes Ennis's and his clothes in the flowing stream, among other things. And Lureen is obviously the milk, specifically mother's milk, since she shows her breasts and receives a case of formula from her parents. So, milk and water do combine, but the water dilutes the milk, so it loses its nutrition. Thus, Lureen and Jack are a lackluster combination resulting in a relationship that could be carried out over the phone, with a husband that never wants to dance with his wife.

[serious crayons]

Good theory, F-R! Works for me. That Ang -- even in his ordinary real-life comments he has to be so mysterious!

[nakymaton]

I might listen to a commentary from Ang Lee if he spoke entirely in riddles. As long as we could argue for years about what he really meant!

And if there's a cast commentary, I hope they would be able to get Heath and Jake and Michelle and Ann all together in a room to record the commentary together. I liked the chemistry between the real people, and I prefer cast commentaries that are silly reminiscences than those that are very, very serious about the craft of acting. I get the impression that the cast is young enough to be silly and serious in turn.

(And yes, I would actually hope that it would break the sad magic of the movie. Something has to, dammit!)

[Penthesilea]

Yes, I would like to hazard a guess on the "milk and water" comment by Ang. We know that Jack is represented by water sometimes, since he brings water to the camp, sings "Water Walking Jesus" and washes Ennis's and his clothes in the flowing stream, among other things. And Lureen is obviously the milk, specifically mother's milk, since she shows her breasts and receives a case of formula from her parents. So, milk and water do combine, but the water dilutes the milk, so it loses its nutrition. Thus, Lureen and Jack are a lackluster combination resulting in a relationship that could be carried out over the phone, with a husband that never wants to dance with his wife.

I thought the comment was "you [Jack&Lureen] go together like milk and honey". Honey, not water. I was pretty sure about that. But now I start to doubt, since you all speak of milk and water 

Arrrg, I still don't have my DVD back. I'll go now and search youtube. Will be back later and report.

[mvansand76]

Re: milk and water. I thought that Ang was trying to tell Anne and Jake how good they looked together (which they do really!), but he did not get the saying right... 

[Penthesilea]

Ok, I take back everything I said. It is indeed "milk and water". I was plain wrong.

OMG. Milk and water make so much more sense than milk and honey. I always thought hunh? about this comment. Because milk and honey go together not well at the beginning, but after a while, when you stirr it, they go together very well and mingle completely. And Jack and Lureen sure did not go together well and mingled in the course of their relationship.

Lee:
Now I read you post a second time and it makes sense. The Jack=water symbolism is well discussed and I think we have a consesnus about that.
The connection between Lureen and milk you elaborated is not to be dimissed.

What happens when milk and water go together? The milk kinda fades. The colour gets more and more pale, the more water you insert. Just like Lureens hair gets more and more pale.

Gotta go now. Will be back on this later.

[nakymaton]

 

Lee, the symbolism of Ang Lee's comment cracks me up. I mean -- here's this comment that Jake used as an example of how mysterious the direction could be, and it's been transformed into something that makes sense in this highly symbolic interpretation of BBM.

I dunno. I still think that the symbolism is far more fluid than implied by our discussions -- that there's consistency to the imagery, and that that makes it very effective on an emotional and intuitive level, but that the movie is not a patchwork quilt of symbols stitched together to make a Meaning.

[serious crayons]

I dunno. I still think that the symbolism is far more fluid than implied by our discussions -- that there's consistency to the imagery, and that that makes it very effective on an emotional and intuitive level, but that the movie is not a patchwork quilt of symbols stitched together to make a Meaning.

I agree with what I think you're saying. Most of those things we talk about do mean something -- I think a cigar is very rarely just a cigar. But often they're multiple or ambiguous or abstract meanings. I don't think each symbol necessarily means one specific thing that can be summarized in two or three words that, when combined with the other symbols, tells the whole story.

Or wait, maybe they do ...

OK, here's the summer on Brokeback, entirely in symbols (I left out a few repetitive ones for streamlining purposes):

Truck ... paper bag ... train ... binoculars ... watch ... skittish horse ... sheep ... water ... sawing/chopping ... more water ... kettle and coffee pot ... bear ... beans ... elk ... tent ... flattened harmonica ... more tent ... dead sheep ... naked laundry ... dead coyote ... more tent ...  more binoculars ... Uncle Harold ... more tent ... mixed-up sheep ... snow.

[nakymaton]

OK, here's the summer on Brokeback, entirely in symbols (I left out a few repetitive ones for streamlining purposes):

Truck ... paper bag ... train ... binoculars ... watch ... skittish horse ... sheep ... water ... sawing/chopping ... more water ... kettle and coffee pot ... bear ... beans ... elk ... tent ... flattened harmonica ... more tent ... dead sheep ... naked laundry ... dead coyote ... more tent ...  more binoculars ... Uncle Harold ... more tent ... mixed-up sheep ... snow.

I forget... what symbolized mind-numbingly hot kissing again?

I guess my feeling about the symbolism is... well, the movie does a great job of going straight to my heart, bypassing my brain. And the visual images play a role in that... but not the kind of very intellectual role that "symbolism" implies to me.

Or maybe I'm still grumpy because I hated high school English lit classes.

[serious crayons]

I forget... what symbolized mind-numbingly hot kissing again?

That would be the drool. Oh wait -- that's MY drool. 

I guess my feeling about the symbolism is... well, the movie does a great job of going straight to my heart, bypassing my brain. And the visual images play a role in that... but not the kind of very intellectual role that "symbolism" implies to me.

Or maybe I'm still grumpy because I hated high school English lit classes.

Well, maybe I still love it because I loved high-school English, in fact used to be a college English lit major, and BBM has more symbolism than The Great Gatsby. 

The movie goes straight to my heart, too. It did the first time I saw it, even though back then the closest I came to understanding any symbols was suspecting that the dead sheep might stand for something and that Lureen probably wasn't just talking about dancing.

It wasn't until I got to imdb that I realized that snow and tents and fans and water and elk meant anything more than the obvious. (OK, so I was a college lit major who switched halfway through to journalism.  )

Personally, I really enjoy the intellectual challenge and reward of analyzing the symbols. I don't think you need to do it to appreciate the movie. I don't even think you need to agree they're there in order to appreciate the movie (hell, I can think of people -- not you, Mel -- who routinely scoff at symbol interpretations and have been involved in these boards longer than I have). I don't think you have to know that "Jack = wind" and then notice the huge fan on Ennis' bed at the end in order to figure out how Ennis is feeling in that scene.

But for me it's fun, partly in a way that a crossword puzzle is fun, partly because it deepens my appreciation of the movie's brilliance, partly because it's interesting to see how great writers and directors handle symbols, partly because I find it fascinating and subtle and astounding. Noticing a new one that works is like finding a buried treasure. I would put noticing all the mirrors and echoes and bookends in the same category.

Still, however fun, it's almost like a sideline thing to my appreciation of the movie's emotional impact.