Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 150701 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2006, 06:33:25 pm »
And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.

That's probably true, but "what happens in X points inevitably to what happens in X" is vague enough to be interpreted any number of ways. I mean, another way is, Ennis turns down Jack's proposal in the motel, so inevitably 16 years later Jack is frustrated.

Isn't it funny that a movie and story that on the surface are so similar -- except for scenes added to "flesh out" the plot, the only change the filmmakers have really owned up to -- are actually so different once you start picking them apart? Different characters, different motivations, different symbols, even whole different larger meanings.

Sure. Here are just few I can think of ...

- You know that old shirt of yours...?

 :laugh:

How about:

-- Remember that time I said "me neither"? Well, actually ...
-- Well, all right, now that you mention it, remember when I said "I aint"?
-- OK, I'll admit it: your harmonica playing really isn't half bad.
-- You know, Alma has a cute nickname for you.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2006, 07:17:36 pm »
Let's bear in mind that the "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" line is film-only. Story Ennis doesn't say one little word. He just collapses on his knees, fists clenched and eyes screwed shut--and Jack isn't sure if he's had a heart attack or if it's "the overflow of an incendiary rage" that causes the collapse.

Did it ever strike you as odd... that this may be the only time when movie-Ennis actually says more than story-Ennis does?

Quote
And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.

Yeah, but an awful lot goes on in the Siesta Motel.

Ennis talks about:
- The punch
- The army not getting Jack
- Trying to figure out if he was ---?
- Doing it with other guys (or not)
- The trying-to-puke incident
- The responsibilities involved in having wives and kids
- More about the punch
- Ennis's horrible childhood memory about seeing Earl dead in the ditch
- ...and the role Ennis's dad had in that memory
- and then hating that Jack's going to drive away in the morning.

Jack talks about:
- Good sex and red-lining it all the way
- No money in rodeo, lots of money in Lureen
- Getting out of the rodeo
- The lie about not having sex with other guys
- Working out what to do now
- What Aguirre might have seen
- The Proposal
- "once in a while ever four f***in years?"
- ...and then getting away to the mountains.

So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there. On Ennis's end, the fears and guilt and confusion and responsibility; on Jack's end, the desire to live together. And did you notice how they talk past each other at one point? Jack keeps talking about wanting to get out of the rodeo and change things; Ennis keeps going back to his confusion and fears and responsibilities. In the end, Ennis hears the proposal and Jack gets the message about Ennis's fears, but they still don't really resolve things.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2006, 09:32:13 pm »
So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there.

Yup. That's why the motel scene is central in the story.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2006, 09:34:44 pm »
The implied threat to quit Ennis is surely is part of the collapse, but can you really parse out a single cause here? Jack's just let go at him with both barrels. And considering that Ennis has just threatened to kill Jack, I still think the infidelity is a big deal to Ennis. Whether he's had his head in the sand for 16 years, I don't know, but having to face up to it is clearly a big issue.

And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.

You are leaving out a paragraph ….

“ ‘Jesus,’ said Jack. ‘Ennis?’ But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”


The key line here is “ …. for what they’d said was no news.”  Earlier, when Ennis confronts Jack and says, “What I don’t know … all them things that I don’t know could get you killed if I should come to know them.”  …. Ennis is implying that he does know. Ennis doesn’t know the specifics, but he is aware of “all them things …” Certainly it is hurtful and it is seen as a betrayal. But it is no surprise.



So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there. On Ennis's end, the fears and guilt and confusion and responsibility; on Jack's end, the desire to live together. And did you notice how they talk past each other at one point? Jack keeps talking about wanting to get out of the rodeo and change things; Ennis keeps going back to his confusion and fears and responsibilities. In the end, Ennis hears the proposal and Jack gets the message about Ennis's fears, but they still don't really resolve things.

But isn’t that the tragedy of their relationship? It's because Ennis and Jack love each other and can find no way to deal with that. They talk past each other when it comes to their relationship. Jack, the dreamer, wishes for a life together …. a place of their own.  Ennis, the pragmatist, sees his current life as a prison that he cannot escape and, by the same token, does not want to escape. Neither one can understand the other’s POV and they continue to hurt each other until it finally comes to a head at the lake scene.


One element of the story that we haven’t really touched on is before Ennis and Jack’s final confrontation. This is one part of the story that I like better than the film. Ennis and Jack are talking about their lives. It is in this conversation that I see their intimacy. It is here that Jack becomes most vulnerable when he admits that he misses Ennis “bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies.” (I like the wording better in the film … but the essence is the same).  Then it goes into this description (I am skipping some dialogue … but it is to get the point across):

“Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis’s legs, said he was worried about his boy ….

‘I used a want a boy for a kid,’ said Ennis undoing buttons, ‘but just got little girls.’

‘I didn’t want none a either kind,’ said Jack. ‘But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted …..’ Without getting up he through deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truth and lies, a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt. One thing that never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough.”


My biggest gripe about the film is that it tones down the passion between Jack and Ennis as they grow older. The lake scene in the film does show Jack’s vulnerability … admitting he misses Ennis to the point he can’t stand it. But it skips from that moment to TS3 … which is an intimate scene, but does not reflect the intensity of the passion they still have for each other.



BTW – Katherine … loved the Brokeback slang thread. HILARIOUS!


Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2006, 12:37:02 am »
"If you can believe it, I got a better idea from Aguirre once. Instead of telling our wives we was fishin’ buddies, we shoulda said we been gardening all these years.”

 :laugh: :laugh:

"Alma, you got it all wrong! We was just stemming the rose!"

"No, Lureen, it's not a pretend place, in fact we was stemming the rose on Brokeback, back in the summer a '63"

Right, TJ?

But also, regarding the "I love you" in every sentence:

-- Why don't you let me be? (which I can't do myself because I love you)
-- It's because of you, Jack, I'm like this (i.e., I'm trapped in this dead end because I love you)
-- I'm nothin, I'm nowhere (I've given up job opportunities and feel trapped in this situation because I love you)
-- I can't stand this no more, Jack (becaue we're apart and I don't know how to change that, yet I love you)

Oops, I guess those are all movie-Ennis again (hey, go away, movie-Ennis; we're talking about story-Ennis at the moment! Wait -- no, don't!).Story Ennis has precious little to say during the whole lakeside argument.  Jack gives his whole speech and Ennis collapses -- end of scene, more or less.

In the movie, the camera turns to Ennis, who has his back to us, and when he turns around the music swells, as if indicating that here is an important moment. Jack has been speaking angrily, but Ennis is actually crying. All of which adds to the scene's complexity and pathos, and gives a lot of weight to what Ennis has to say (and, I would argue, paradoxically belies his blame of Jack).

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #125 on: September 17, 2006, 01:24:31 pm »
You are leaving out a paragraph ….

“ ‘Jesus,’ said Jack. ‘Ennis?’ But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”

No, I don't think, or feel, that I'm leaving out, or ignoring, that paragraph. It's what I said earlier about the difference between suspecting something and having to deal face-on with the reality of it when you get confirmation that what you've been suspecting, or fearing, is actually true. Mexico isn't news, but now it's out in the open and Ennis has to deal with it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,720
  • Me and my 1951 DeSoto Suburban
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #126 on: September 17, 2006, 01:59:23 pm »


My biggest gripe about the film is that it tones down the passion between Jack and Ennis as they grow older. The lake scene in the film does show Jack’s vulnerability … admitting he misses Ennis to the point he can’t stand it. But it skips from that moment to TS3 … which is an intimate scene, but does not reflect the intensity of the passion they still have for each other.



 



To me the film showed enough, just, that the passion was still very musch alive between Jack an Ennis, Horseback riding, even the lakeside Texas argument, and of course TS3.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #127 on: September 17, 2006, 05:02:59 pm »
No, I don't think, or feel, that I'm leaving out, or ignoring, that paragraph. It's what I said earlier about the difference between suspecting something and having to deal face-on with the reality of it when you get confirmation that what you've been suspecting, or fearing, is actually true. Mexico isn't news, but now it's out in the open and Ennis has to deal with it.

Okay, Jeff ... I can give you that. But why do you say that Jack's exclusion/ omission in the motel scene is such a cardinal sin? Help me to understand your thought process. Why would Jack bring all of that up when it was 1) while they were apart; and 2) when it had nothing to do with Ennis? The lake scene is difficult for Ennis because Mexico happened after they reunited, not before. That’s the betrayal, IMO

To me the film showed enough, just, that the passion was still very much alive between Jack and Ennis, Horseback riding, even the lakeside Texas argument, and of course TS3.

But the story is more descriptive of their passion in their later years than is the film. For me, I find that to be a (very) small flaw (in the movie). When you read the story, there is no doubt that Jack and Ennis’ love and passion for each other is as intense as it was on BBM. IMO, you don’t sense that in the film until they have their argument. It is at that point where the depth of their feelings for each other is revealed. Don’t get me wrong … I am not saying that don’t love and crave each other. What I am saying is that after the reunion scene, we really don’t see their passion and desire for each other (certainly not to the extent that the story describes).
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2006, 11:07:04 pm »
Look, I am generally in full agreement with Katherine's statement from another thread. (Not a direct quote: "Never enough se... no, TIME. Never enough TIME.") ;) But, despite that...

I think the sex scene in the last camping trip in the story is as sad as it is passionate. I mean, before the foreplay starts, they're sitting there talking about affairs with women. Jack's lying about his affair, but Ennis seems to mean it. "...she had some problems he didn't want." (Umm, Ennis? Can I play advice columnist here for a moment? There are some other really good reasons not to be seriously involved with her, one of which happens to be sitting there sharing a joint with you.) And then, while they're undoing buttons and all, they're simultaneously having this conversation about their kids. It's like the sort of conversation that old married couples have in bed, except that the sex involves rolling in the dirt, like they could have this really mundane conversation but couldn't wait to get into the tent to have sex, like the passion is both sparked and darkened by its infrequency. Like even after 20 years, they're still pretending.

And so I don't think it would work with the same dynamic in the movie, because we've already seen the tenderness between them, and because that sort of contrast would seem out of place. It isn't so much that movie-Ennis doesn't understand what's going on, but that he's still so tangled up inside that he can't act. And Jack's slowly dying of frustration in the meantime. I'm not sure how another sex scene would have developed that. (Whereas the delivery of the dialogue during the conversation does develop it, I think.)

On the other hand, I sure wouldn't have minded getting to see them make out a bit more. ;D Every now and then, my Inner Naughty Girl and my Inner Defender of Artistic Purity don't quite see eye to eye.

***

Regarding the last confrontation:

I'm still not sure just how important it is that Ennis learns the truth about Jack's involvement with other men. Yes, that's what sparks the threat ("...all them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them.") But it's Ennis, not Jack, who brings them up. Yes, Jack mentions Mexico first, but Ennis goes through his litany of excuses until Jack says "I did once." (Story vs movie note: the story says Jack's tone was "bitter and accusatory." I'm not sure I would describe it that way in the movie, but I'm curious what other people think.) And then Ennis goes off, swears, and then brings up Mexico again. It's as if both Ennis and Jack have things that really bug them but that they've let slide all these years. Jack still resents Ennis's refusal to consider living together. Ennis doesn't like Jack having sex with other men (and is it important to Ennis that Jack lies about it? I don't know). So once Jack crosses the line and brings up his resentment ("I did once"), Ennis responds with his own accusations, and it escalates until Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you." And I guess I agree with Katherine and Diane that it's that final threat, the threat that things might actually come to an end, that is the real gut-punch to Ennis, story as well as movie.

On the other hand, there's the story line from near the end: "...though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind." I'm not quite sure what that line means, but I wonder if it's partly a reference to Jack's, hmmmm, non-monogamous leanings (for lack of a good way to put it)?

It's weird, in a way. Story-Jack wants the living-together. Story-Ennis wants the fidelity. Both are things that straight married couples expect of each other (and the lack of one or the other or both can be a factor leading to divorce). In the movie, there's a more clear distinction: Jack wants commitment and Ennis won't give it. But Jack's not as much of a saint in the story, I don't think.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #129 on: September 18, 2006, 01:19:54 am »
It isn't so much that movie-Ennis doesn't understand what's going on, but that he's still so tangled up inside that he can't act.

That seems like a perfect description of movie-Ennis vs. story-Ennis. Movie-Ennis actually gets what's going on pretty well, but is too screwed up to do anything about it. Story-Ennis is a little more mentally healthy but somewhat more clueless, so he might possibly be able to act on it if he could even figure out what "it" is.

Quote
Every now and then, my Inner Naughty Girl and my Inner Defender of Artistic Purity don't quite see eye to eye.

I hear you. If only Ang Lee had found a way to satisfy both!

Quote
Story vs movie note: the story says Jack's tone was "bitter and accusatory." I'm not sure I would describe it that way in the movie, but I'm curious what other people think.

Me neither. In fact, even though he's angry, movie-Jack still seems to be exercising a bit of tact and restraint. He's not erupting. He's just laying it out, his frustration showing but somewhat reined in, hoping that Ennis will finally get it.

Quote
Ennis doesn't like Jack having sex with other men (and is it important to Ennis that Jack lies about it? I don't know).

Actually, I always read/hear "all them things that I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them" as Ennis saying he'd rather not come to know them.

Quote
On the other hand, there's the story line from near the end: "...though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind." I'm not quite sure what that line means, but I wonder if it's partly a reference to Jack's, hmmmm, non-monogamous leanings (for lack of a good way to put it)?

That could be! I always read that as, in saying 'I swear,' Ennis is saying 'I love you,' which Jack himself was never inclined to do (even though Ennis now realizes he did). But there's a part of 'I swear' that also sounds a little like making a long-term commitment, and I guess the fidelity issue would be a part of that. That is, Jack was not the kind to swear lifelong faithfulness -- or to ask it of Ennis -- but at this point Ennis was nevertheless ready to swear that.