Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 151912 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2006, 02:37:04 pm »
Wouldn't you like to know!  ;)  :laugh:

Well, then, you could be the best combine salesperson we got (probably the only combine salesperson we got. ...)  ;) :laugh:
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Offline dly64

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2006, 03:16:31 pm »
Well, then, you could be the best combine salesperson we got (probably the only combine salesperson we got. ...)  ;) :laugh:

Tell ya what ... I really do know quite a lot about them combines! I grew up around them .... honest!  ;) So ............ hmmmm ....... I'd sell 'em if Jack'd come with 'em.  ::) :laugh: ;D
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2006, 05:45:32 pm »
Ok, back to another question from Katherine:

In fact, while we're at it, and because your reading of the story is so sensitive and astute, let me ask you: How do you feel about Story Jack and Ennis compared to their movie counterparts?

You mean aside from the movie counterparts being so hot together that it's amazing that there isn't a big hole melted in the rock in the mountains of Alberta? ;D

Ok, seriously for a minute. I know we've kind of discussed this in a lot of different ways, so I want to try to answer the question in a different way, by talking about how the point-of-view of the story vs the movie might affect how we see the characters in each.

(But before I start: this is a particularly bad question to ask me, because I wrote story-based fan fiction from Jack's POV before I saw the movie, and I think the process of writing fan fiction makes me, at least, completely incapable of thinking objectively about the characters. In order to write a character, I have to believe that I understand the character -- in fact, when I was still trying to write, I avoided almost all discussion of the movie, so I wouldn't mess up the versions of the characters that were in my head. But I haven't been able to finish any sort of fiction (BBM-based, other-fandom-based, or original) since I saw the movie - it just left me so gobsmacked that I couldn't write, period - so maybe I'm getting a bit of objectivity back by now. But just a warning, in case I insist on an interpretation that can't be backed up by anything in either the story or the movie.)

Anyway, about point-of-view in the story vs the movie. I see the story as being essentially from Ennis's POV, even though there are several places (especially the dozy embrace flashback) where we either get information that Ennis couldn't have known (at least, at the time) or which are from someone else's POV. And it's that structure of the story (and even of the sentences and paragraphs), where emotionally charged information is revealed only in throwaway lines at the end of other descriptions, that makes me think that the POV is really important. I think that Ennis either can't or won't focus on those emotionally revealing moments, either because (as Diana Ossana said) (story-)Ennis can't access his emotions, or because (IMO) Ennis feels his emotions almost too strongly, and is scared or ashamed or otherwise conflicted about them. Ennis pushes those moments out of his awareness, and therefore we don't get to see them, either, until Jack is already dead.

The movie, on the other hand, seems to be shown from the perspective of a sort of a voyeur.  Sometimes we watch Jack and Ennis from another person's viewpoint, like when we see the Happy Tussle through Aguirre's binoculars or when we see part of the reunion kiss from Alma's doorway. Sometimes we get a glimpse of what Jack or Ennis sees when they look at each other -- those views of Ennis in Jack's rearview mirror, for instance, or the times when they look across the wide spaces of the mountain at each other. And sometimes, we're completely on the outside, looking at everything -- and we even get shut out when the tent flap closes. But even though we're often on the outside looking at both of them, the view we see hasn't been edited to remove the emotional stuff, unlike the story as told from Ennis's viewpoint. So we see Ennis's emotional conflicts given (extraordinarily subtle, yay) expression on Heath's face, and we see Jack's tender looks during moments like TS2 and the hotel scene. I think that makes a difference in how the audience views the characters.

So, about the story vs movie characters -- well, I've said before, I think, that I don't see story-Ennis and movie-Ennis as being all that different. I think that story-Ennis is just as internally conflicted about being in love with Jack as movie-Ennis is, despite story-Ennis's admissions about "wringing it out a hunderd times." Story-Ennis talks more than movie-Ennis does, particularly in the motel scene, perhaps because Annie Proulx had no idea how expressive "hunnh?" could be. Or maybe because story-Ennis comes to terms with the sex, but not with the love.

One thing about movie-Ennis -- he seems so, well, vulnerable, especially in those first few scenes. I mean, he looks like a rugged iconic cowboy, but he also looks like somebody who is withdrawn because he can be hurt, rather than somebody who is withdrawn because he doesn't like people. (And the way Ennis reveals bits of his past in the bar... I just feel so bad for him right from the beginning. Story-Ennis doesn't really let me feel sorry for him until the very end.)

Story-Jack is a bit of a mystery, because we're mostly seeing him through Ennis's eyes, and Ennis isn't telling us what's important most of the time. So we get information in bits and pieces. We know Jack has a "quick laugh" (and that the laugh is one of the things that Ennis finds "fair enough" about Jack). We know Jack is fond of runt puppies (which I find a completely adorable characteristic, I've got to say -- I mean, awwwwwww, PUPPIES ;D ). We know Jack bitches a lot... about Aguirre's orders, about "commutin four hours a day," about Ennis's "hammerin." ;D We know Jack is infatuated with the rodeo and sees it (and the money associated with it) as a way to escape from Lightning Flat.

And then we know that Jack lies. He jumps in a bit too fast in response to Ennis's "I'm not no queer." He responds to Ennis's question about doing it with other guys with "shit no," when Jack had been "riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." (And, yes, I know that our old friend TJ would give me a lecture about cigarettes and rodeoing if he heard me say that, but I don't believe for a minute that Annie Proulx was oblivious to the innuendo in that line.) And then in the story, we don't see Jack again until the last camping trip, where Jack lies about having an affair with his neighbor's wife rather than with the neighbor, and where it comes out that Jack has "been to Mexico" -- once? Often? During the whole twenty years, or just after Ennis's divorce? We don't know for sure, but when I read the story, I got the impression that Jack slept with other men during the entire relationship. (But that was just my reading of the story -- what's actually in the story is consistent with the movie's interpretation, too.)

We only hear Jack's desire to live with Ennis mentioned once directly (in the motel), and then indirectly in the lake confrontation, and then from Jack's father. But the little revelations build up to the same impression that the movie creates in real time: that this was something that Jack really was serious about. And there's the twelve-hundred-mile drive for nothing that struck me so hard -- that's another hint about the intensity of Jack's hopes and dreams. And then there's the dozy embrace, where we learn that what Jack really wanted was to be held and loved in some "shared, sexless hunger." And then, of course, there are the shirts, which are just about the best symbol of "love" I have ever run across in a book or movie. So is story-Jack this guy who talks a bit too fast, lies, and sleeps around, or is he this romantic dreamer who, first of all, is hiding the depth of his attachment from an emotionally skittish Ennis, and second of all, is viewed through the eyes of a guy who is scared or ashamed to acknowledge his own feelings, let alone acknowledge how Jack feels about him? The story doesn't give us the answer.

Movie-Jack is portrayed as the romantic character. We don't see the used-car salesman side of Jack -- even when he's trying to pick up Jimbo or is being picked up by Lureen. Or even when he's selling tractors. We see Jack lying -- to Ennis about the ranch neighbor, to Lureen about liking the direction she's going, and maybe to Ennis about not being queer. But in the movie, I think it's pretty easy to forgive the lies, for the reasons that Diane gave a few posts back. And we really, really see Jack-the-dreamer, when Jack proposes the cow-and-calf operation, when Jack drives north after the divorce, on Jack's face as Ennis rides away after the dozy embrace. And we see Jack's gentle side, even at the very beginning in the bar.

So anyway. I think we get hints of the more romantic movie-Jack in the story. But I think that story-Jack has another side that's played down, at least, in the movie. Or maybe that the romantic side is played up, because it isn't hidden by story-Ennis's emotional censorship.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2006, 07:02:05 pm »
Jesus, Mel. Where were you eight months ago, when I first started trying to figure out why I liked the movie so much better than the story? For that matter, why weren't you in my book club two years ago, when everybody read it and liked it but didn't really say much of interest beyond "I liked the imagery" and stuff like that (and all the members, BTW, were writers)?

Once again, your post makes me appreciate what an amazing geologist you must be if literature is the subject you're not good at. At the end of my old dog-eared copy of "Wuthering Heights" there were four or five essays from literature professors explaining various aspects of the novel, and although they of course were written in high-falutin academese, none of them were any more enlightening than your posts.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 12:50:01 am by latjoreme »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2006, 11:20:03 pm »
Jesus, Mel. Where were you eight months ago, when I first started trying to figure out why I liked the movie so much better than the story?

I was sitting in my house, updating the damn movie site every hour in hopes that BBM would show in more than one city in my time zone.  :P  And then I was off isolating myself from BBM discussions, trying to write fan fiction, wondering why the hell my characters sucked so much. It took me eight months to figure out that the problem was that the original characterization was tied to the structure of the story, and that my characterizations lost all their power when I took them out of that context.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2006, 08:13:09 am »
First: Mel, your OP and other posts here are beautiful, more than well thought-out and truly amazing. I bow my head.

On this thread are so many good thoughts, I took notes while reading though it, so I won't forget what I want to comment on.

Back to the OP:
Judging on what I've read from Proulx (which is not much, allowedly) it's typical for Proulx to come off-hand, in half-sentences with crucial informations. Moreso, she likes to gut-punch her readers through the backdoor. A story may flow along - but then, in the last paragraph, or even in the last sentence, there comes the punch.
A good example for this is the story, which in German is called: "In Hell, all you want is a glass of Water" I just transalted the German title and hope the original one is the same or at least close enough for you to know what story I'm speaking of.
At the end of said story, a long-ago act of deathly violence is illustrated. Then she writes: "We're heading for a new millenium now and such things don't happen any more. A likely story!"

Or a very short one, where a freshly widowed woman looks through the attic of the house for the first time in twelve years and finds bodies of women her husband had murdered. Last sentence: "Living this far out in the middle of nowhere, you get your own idea of fun."

(Note: I read those stories in German - except BBM -  and thus can only paraphrase Proulx's words. I hope I am able to get my point across anyway).


Back to Ennis and Jack:
Quote
From nakymaton:
"It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just
two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly
profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's dead."

I can't retrace this train of thought because I saw the movie prior to reading the story. When I read the story for the first time, the prologue already brought me to tears: Ennis desolate in is trailer, thinking/dreaming of Jack.
When I read the story the first time, I noticed the details of affection, of love not sex, of the depth of their relationship: shouldn't let you out of my sights, paw the white out of the moon, the high-time supper, the dry heaves, and so on.
I ask myself how I would have reacted, had I read the story first. I was already in love with the characters when reading the story. And so I was somehow disappointed by story Jack: "He now had a little money on his own and found ways to spend it" Jack's lying in the motel Siesta ("Shit no") and so on. The fact that story Jack seemed to have slept around pretty much. I really didn't like this about Jack.
Jack is far more likeable/loveable in the movie, shirts or no shirts.

This leads directly to the next quote:
Quote
From nakymaton:
Nearly all of the characterizations are softened somewhat from the short story, I
think, too. (That is,  it's possible to empathize with most of the characters in the
movie. In the story... well, it takes a re-read to seriously empathize with even
Ennis and Jack.)

I agree very much with you here. What comes to my mind is Proulx's description of the boys: "rough-mannerd and rough-spoken": Ennis peeing in the sink, Jack saying he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies. How much more loveable is the confession in the movie "miss you so bad I can hardly stand it".
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 08:22:22 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2006, 09:10:09 am »
Mel,

Your post #42 here: I'm not going to take up the space by copying it here, but--Wow!

I know this is a story discussion, but one thing you wrote jumped out at me: In the film is Jack really lying to Lureen in the back seat of that convertible? I'm inclined to think, no he's not. It's 1966, Jack is still very young at that point, he's lonely, he's horny  ::) , and I know or have known many gay men who "went both ways," married--or not--and fathered children before they sorted everything out. I'm inclined to think that at just that moment, he's not lying--not, anyway, lying in the sense of deliberately creating a falsehood.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2006, 10:25:39 am »
I'm inclined to think that at just that moment, he's not lying--not, anyway, lying in the sense of deliberately creating a falsehood.

I don't think he's lying in an extremely deliberate Machiavellian sense, thinking, "Hmm ... her daddy's rich and she wants me, so I'd better keep stringing her along." But I don't think he's exactly being truthful either. Look how lukewarm he is with her compared to how he is with Ennis (or even, for that matter, Jimbo!). She's the one who knocks HIS hat off, not the other way around (in fact, he picks up her knocked-off hat and gives it back!).

I don't get the sense that Jack is still sorting things out in this case so much as taking the path of least resistance. He's doesn't feel passion toward her, actually he's not all that excited about the direction she's going, but, well, everybody expects him to be with a woman, and here's one who's pretty and rich and wants him, so might as well go along for the ride and see what happens.

So it's kind of like the "me neither" -- not true, but said mainly just to conform to expectations.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2006, 10:45:37 am »
Maybe I misread Mel's intention but from this:

Quote
to Lureen about liking the direction she's going,

because of the reference to Jack's line of dialogue, I took that as specifically referring to the scene in the back seat of the convertible and wrote my post accordingly. That's not a lukewarm response that we see there. Not from that grin on Jack's face. He's a 22-year-old boy who's about to get his rocks off. ...  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2006, 10:51:08 am »
Thanks, Jeff. :)

I know this is a story discussion, but one thing you wrote jumped out at me: In the film is Jack really lying to Lureen in the back seat of that convertible?

Like Katherine, I don't see Jack as deliberately lying to Lureen to get his hands on her daddy's money, or anything like that. And like Katherine, I see Jack as pretty much passively following wherever Lureen leads. And yeah, he looks like he's enjoying the physical contact with somebody (though he seems a bit confused by the sudden appearance of breasts ;D ). But "fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going" sounds like a Line to me. (Of course, so does "what're you waiting for, cowboy... a matin' call?") But I guess... well, I see Lines as things that people say when they either are scared of being hurt by being sincere, or when they don't have something sincere to say.

I guess the back seat of a convertible isn't the sort of place where people are brutally honest with one another, particularly when they're having sex hours after their first meeting. So maybe I'm being a bit harsh on Jack, there. (And again -- movie-Jack doesn't tell the whole truth, but he doesn't seem to outright lie as much as story-Jack does. Except about the ranch neighbor. And even there, he seems like he almost wants to confess everything to Ennis... but all that he manages is "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." And Ennis probably wouldn't have been able to take any more honesty than that.)
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