BBM didn't win Best Picture Oscar - but not to fret!

[dly64]

Maybe this is a loaded topic since there are many people who are still livid about BBM not winning the Best Picture Oscar. And yes … this is months down the road, but my mind keeps going back to the controversy. I decided to do some delving into the Academy’s track record for Best Picture winners …. not always so great. Some of the winners are:

The Broadway Melody
Cimarron
Cavalcade
Hamlet (1948)
An American in Paris
The Greatest Show on Earth
Marty
Around the World in Eighty Days
Tom Jones
A Man for All Seasons
Chariots of Fire
Gladiator

I am not saying these films aren’t good (I’m not even saying they aren’t great). But how many people actually remember a lot of these films? Now, think of the following films that didn’t win:

King Kong (1933)
The Wizard of Oz
The Grapes of Wrath
Citizen Kane
It’s A Wonderful Life
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Sunset Boulevard
A Streetcar Named Desire
Singin’ in the Rain
High Noon
Shane
Rear Window
Rebel without a Cause
Giant
Vertigo
Some Like it Hot
Psycho (1960)
To Kill a Mockingbird
Dr Strangelove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Bonnie and Clyde
The Graduate
2001: A Space Odyssey
Network (which lost to Rocky!!)
Apocalypse Now (which lost to Kramer vs. Kramer)
Fargo (which lost to The English Patient)
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (which lost to Gladiator!)
Brokeback Mountain (which lost to Crash)


I can tell you that the latter list has many more memorable and enduring films than does the previous (“winner”) list. 

In short … we need not despair. The true test of greatness will be time. IMO, BBM will weather it … Crash will not.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I can tell you that the latter list has many more memorable and enduring films than does the previous (“winner”) list. 

Oooo, you'll get arguments on that one! I'm not going to argue, merely state that in my opinion, Tom Jones and A Man for All Seasons are completely deserving of their wins (the Tom Jones being the original one, with Albert Finney, of course).

This is all highly subjective, of course.

[dly64]

Oooo, you'll get arguments on that one! I'm not going to argue, merely state that in my opinion, Tom Jones and A Man for All Seasons are completely deserving of their wins (the Tom Jones being the original one, with Albert Finney, of course).

This is all highly subjective, of course.

You can argue with me ... that's fine. I am not saying that "Tom Jones" or "A Man for All Seasons" aren't great films. They most certainly are. What I am saying is that they are not as universally memorable as, let’s say, “The Birds” (which wasn’t even nominated)  or “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” If we completed a poll … I would venture to guess that darn few people have ever heard about either Oscar winner. Maybe I’m wrong! (Which is a complete possibility).

Additional Edit: I am also not saying "Crash" wasn't a great picture and didn't deserve to win. On the contrary ... it's a fabulous film. However, I don't see "Crash" standing the test of time, IMO.

[Meryl]

I want to echo wholeheartedly Jeff's singling out of Tom Jones, one of my favorite films ever, as belonging in that winner's category, and A Man for All Seasons is a beautifully acted, intelligent and moving film.  I remember seeing 8 of those 12 films listed, being an old sod, and some of them do deserve to be there. 

I will never really forgive the Academy members who, for obtuse, prejudiced or self-serving reasons, chose not to honor what was clearly the best film of 2005.  It is a real blot on the Oscars and should be a wake-up call to their leadership that something is wrong when such a film as Crash can be hyped into a victory over other, more worthy films.  Brokeback Mountain was the most obvious loser, but all the other nominated films were better than the one that actually won. 

[dly64]

I will never really forgive the Academy members who, for obtuse, prejudiced or self-serving reasons, chose not to honor what was clearly the best film of 2005.  It is a real blot on the Oscars and should be a wake-up call to their leadership that something is wrong when such a film as Crash can be hyped into a victory over other, more worthy films.  Brokeback Mountain was the most obvious loser, but all the other nominated films were better than the one that actually won. 

As Jeff has said ... this is completely subjective. I wanted BBM to win, no doubt about it. But, in all honesty, I wasn't shocked that it didn't. All of the films nominated this year were all considered controversial. Every single one. “Crash” is not a safe choice. It’s really not. To tell the truth, I think the producers and marketers behind “Crash” were more dogged in their approach as compared to BBM. I also read (albeit I have no “proof”) that much of the BBM information that went out to the academy downplayed the gay relationship and tried to build up Heath and Michelle’s relationship. If, indeed, this is true …. shame on them! I will do some research and I will see if I can find the source of that information.

[nakymaton]

I don't think the last ten years have been very impressive for the Oscars. I mean, look at the list:

1995 Braveheart
1996 The English Patient
1997 Titanic
1998 Shakespeare in Love
1999 American Beauty
2000 Gladiator
2001 A Beautiful Mind
2002 Chicago
2003 Return of the King
2004 Million Dollar Baby
2005 Crash

I confess that I haven't seen The English Patient or Titanic. (Both movies looked too sappily romantic for me.) Oh, and I refuse to see Crash. Out of the rest, well, I'm a die-hard Tolkien fan, so I'm happy that the Lord of the Rings movies were recognized, even if Fellowship of the Ring is (arguably) the best of the three. But as for the others:

Braveheart isn't that great of a movie, besides being anti-gay and revisionist history and all that. Gladiator is maybe better as an action/period piece, but still not a classic. Shakespeare in Love was very entertaining, at least, but I liked Elizabeth (not Saving Private Ryan, actually) better. American Beauty was... hmmm. A good movie, I guess, but such a bleak view of human nature. Chicago was just another musical, not particularly great stacked up against the classic musicals of a generation or more ago. A Beautiful Mind and Million Dollar Baby were hideous, emotionally manipulative pieces of crap that might have seemed moving at first viewing, but which left a really bad taste in my mouth. (And I wouldn't have seen Crash simply because it was written and directed by Paul Haggis, and I didn't like the writing in Million Dollar Baby. So it isn't just sour grapes.)

So in my opinion, in the last ten years the Academy has made one good choice (RotK), two choices that I'm not sure about (but Titanic is movie history from the shear amount of money it made, I guess, so at least it's memorable in that respect), a bunch that are watchable but probably not classics, and a couple real stinkers.

Honestly, given the Academy's recent record, I'm not going to pay much attention to their choices in the future.

[dly64]

Honestly, given the Academy's recent record, I'm not going to pay much attention to their choices in the future.

You are cracking me up, Mel. And just as Jeff has said, this is all subjective. But where I can follow your logic is the whole idea that the Oscars haven't necessarily had the greatest track record. There are usually some specific patterns: more dramas win than any other genre. The academy usually loves high budget, over-long epics (although 2005 had nothing that would fit that “category”).

Here is a link that you might find humorous … “The Worst of the Academy Awards.”

http://www.filmsite.org/worstoscars.html

I can’t agree with all of their “worst of the worst,” but it’s rather funny to read it anyway.

[ednbarby]

Ooh, DOGGIE!  That list of the last ten years' winners is quite telling.  And lest we forget that in 1994, "The Shawshank Redemption," still one of the best damned movies I've ever seen, lost to FORREST F***ING GUMP!!!!!  GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!  (Sorry.)

Oh, and that my husband's favorite movie, "Snow Falling on Cedars," WASN'T EVEN NOMINATED for Best Picture for 1999.  (I still get an earful every now and then from him on that, and by the way, that's when he stopped watching the Oscars, so he totally felt my pain when BBM lost.)

[dly64]

Oh, and that my husband's favorite movie, "Snow Falling on Cedars," WASN'T EVEN NOMINATED for Best Picture for 1999.  (I still get an earful every now and then from him on that, and by the way, that's when he stopped watching the Oscars, so he totally felt my pain when BBM lost.)

There's a whole new thread in that comment ... think of the great films that were never even nominated!

"Rear Window"!!!! (One of my all time favorites)
"North by Northwest"
"The Third Man" and "Asphalt Jungle" (and yet they nominated "Born Yesterday", "Father of the Bride", and "King Solomon's Mines")

I could go on and on. Not a particularly high percentage of Oscar winners are considered the "Greatest Films of All Time."

[CD_one]

dly64 - I LOVED Rear Window, Vertigo, North by North West, and Bell Book and Candle.

Seriously though, BBM has to be in the top ten movies of all time. I only saw it recently and have been powerfully moved by it.  It's on my wish list for my birthday coming up in October. In my first viewing I got a bit annoyed as I couldn't understand a lot of what was being said, but hey, it gave me a reason to watch it again (and again!).

I think that great movies are a combintation of powerful scenery, powerful actors and performances and plots mixed with sub-plots and even more plots, allowing for a variety of interpretations to be placed on various scenes and lines, again and again. You get something new everytime you watch it and that, my friends, is what good moviemaking is all about!

[ednbarby]

dly64 - I LOVED Rear Window, Vertigo, North by North West, and Bell Book and Candle.

Seriously though, BBM has to be in the top ten movies of all time. I only saw it recently and have been powerfully moved by it.  It's on my wish list for my birthday coming up in October. In my first viewing I got a bit annoyed as I couldn't understand a lot of what was being said, but hey, it gave me a reason to watch it again (and again!).

I think that great movies are a combintation of powerful scenery, powerful actors and performances and plots mixed with sub-plots and even more plots, allowing for a variety of interpretations to be placed on various scenes and lines, again and again. You get something new everytime you watch it and that, my friends, is what good moviemaking is all about!

Ah, so true.  Watched it for my sixteenth time (but who's counting?) last night, and caught something else *again* that had never registered before.  In Aguirre's office/trailer, the skin of a sheep's head is hanging right next to the hook on which Joe Aguirre hangs his hat after he calls the boys in.  How in the holy hell did I never see that before???  Really, we could all have a field day just freezing some frames in the two trailer scenes and noting all the symbolic stuff in there.  We've all noticed the binoculars - closed in their case in the first scene and hanging open and outside the case in the second.

My four-year-old son walked in from his bedroom during the post-reunion campfire scene, watched it intently, and goes, "But - two boys can't marry each other."  Broke my heart.  Already it's being engrained.  I said, "Two people who love each other *can* marry each other, whether they're both boys or both girls or a boy and girl.  If not legally, at least in their hearts."  Of course, being four, he goes, "But how can you get married in your hearts?"  I tried to explain how sometimes people who love each live together forever, but they never get legally married, and it's just like being married.  That blew his mind so much, he said, "I'm tired.  I'm going back to bed."

You're right, CD - this is definitely one of those movies you can find something new in every time you see it.  I haven't had it happen yet where I didn't.  And yet two months ago I figured I'd seen it as much as I needed to and probably wouldn't watch it again - at least not for a long time.  So much for that theory. 

[serious crayons]

CD, welcome to BetterMost! 

I've seen it "only" 15 times -- i.e., about 12 times more than I've seen any other movie. (Not only is it IN my top 10 favorite movies of all time, it IS my top 10 favorite movies of all time -- it gets all top 10 slots.) And I know people who watch it every day for months, people who have seen it literally 150 times or more.

So yeah, you can get new things out of it every time you watch. And as far as a variety of interpretations of lines and scenes, take a look at some of the threads here and you will see what a variety of interpretations people find to discuss! 

author=ednbarby link=topic=4259.msg88563#msg88563 date=1158587532]

My four-year-old son walked in from his bedroom during the post-reunion campfire scene, watched it intently, and goes, "But - two boys can't marry each other."  Broke my heart.  Already it's being engrained.

Barb, I bet it's natural that when Will looks around and sees nothing but different-sex couples, he gets the idea that that's how it's "supposed to" work. So it becomes ingrained. But only temporarily! You sound like you are doing a great job of outgraining it. 

[dly64]

Seriously though, BBM has to be in the top ten movies of all time. I only saw it recently and have been powerfully moved by it.  It's on my wish list for my birthday coming up in October. In my first viewing I got a bit annoyed as I couldn't understand a lot of what was being said, but hey, it gave me a reason to watch it again (and again!).

I think that great movies are a combintation of powerful scenery, powerful actors and performances and plots mixed with sub-plots and even more plots, allowing for a variety of interpretations to be placed on various scenes and lines, again and again. You get something new everytime you watch it and that, my friends, is what good moviemaking is all about!

Welcome to BetterMost, CD! I think you'll like it here. Many passionate people, great conversations and ... NO TROLLS!!!

As for my number of viewings ... I hate to admit it, but I am well over 150 times. SCARY!!! I have never had a reaction to a film like this!!! It's a strange, but oddly wonderful feeling!

[serious crayons]

You know, we haven't had a "how many times have you seen it" thread for a while. It's interesting, because there's such a range. Maybe I'll start one. Or maybe a poll!

[ednbarby]

You know, we haven't had a "how many times have you seen it" thread for a while. It's interesting, because there's such a range. Maybe I'll start one. Or maybe a poll!

There was one started a while back.  I just went to it and found I could actually edit my vote by clicking on "Remove Vote" (duh), slapping myself upside the head a few times for not having figured that out until now, and re-voting.  I added my 2 cents (as if I don't always do that anyway) so as to bump it up for ya, Katharine.

[serious crayons]

I saw that, Barb! At first I thought it was just a huge coincidence that you happened to post on it the very day the subject came up.

Anyway, I PMed Lynne (the OP) and asked if she'd mind if we either updated her poll or started a new one. She started hers so long ago (early April) that it could use a little bit of updating. For one thing, her top choice is "more than 30."

 

I know Diane is not the only one who could answer yes to "more than 150." And I bet answers like "50 to 100" are not at all unusual.

Also, I'm curious about some things now that the movie has been around so long: Are people trying to wean themselves? Do those who've seen it a huge number of times ever worry about getting tired of it? Or do they still see new things each time? What other rewards do they find in repeat viewings? For those who haven't seen it as many times, why not? And so on.

[moremojo]

Brokeback Mountain did win the Golden Lion at Venice, which in my opinion is worth ten Oscars. The Academy Awards are much more a popularity contest than they are a reputable arbiter of artistic merit, and many, many truly great films have never even been nominated for one, in any category.

[CD_one]

Thanks everyone for making me feel welcome to this forum!

Well well well. The first time I saw Brokeback moment was, now let me see, last Saturday night.  I cant (yet!) claim to watching it more than 3 times in the past 4 days but I think I've done a pretty good job thus far.  In that time I've also managed to get a copy of the short story and have read that, and am now ready for my next viewing, having more of an understanding of where Annie was heading with the story and also having the benefit of all the wonderful insights provided by this discussion forum.

I've been thinking on and off about the story over the past couple of days, when I haven't been at work and concentrating on other things.  I remember reading one of the postings where the author of the posting said they wouldn't feel the same about the movie if it was along the 'normal' lines of girl/boy romantic film.  What hits me (as a straight female) in the guts about this film, is the beautiful love story and the regret that unfolds. To me the boy/boy story doesn't matter, its not relevant, its the pleasure and pain of true love in an unfair society that is the key message..

[JT]

Maybe this is a loaded topic since there are many people who are still livid about BBM not winning the Best Picture Oscar. And yes … this is months down the road, but my mind keeps going back to the controversy. I decided to do some delving into the Academy’s track record for Best Picture winners …. not always so great. Some of the winners are:

The Broadway Melody
Cimarron
Cavalcade
Hamlet (1948)
An American in Paris
The Greatest Show on Earth
Marty
Around the World in Eighty Days
Tom Jones
A Man for All Seasons
Chariots of Fire
Gladiator

I am not saying these films aren’t good (I’m not even saying they aren’t great). But how many people actually remember a lot of these films? Now, think of the following films that didn’t win:

King Kong (1933)
The Wizard of Oz
The Grapes of Wrath
Citizen Kane
It’s A Wonderful Life
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Sunset Boulevard
A Streetcar Named Desire
Singin’ in the Rain
High Noon
Shane
Rear Window
Rebel without a Cause
Giant
Vertigo
Some Like it Hot
Psycho (1960)
To Kill a Mockingbird
Dr Strangelove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Bonnie and Clyde
The Graduate
2001: A Space Odyssey
Network (which lost to Rocky!!)
Apocalypse Now (which lost to Kramer vs. Kramer)
Fargo (which lost to The English Patient)
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (which lost to Gladiator!)
Brokeback Mountain (which lost to Crash)


I can tell you that the latter list has many more memorable and enduring films than does the previous (“winner”) list. 

In short … we need not despair. The true test of greatness will be time. IMO, BBM will weather it … Crash will not.

I agree with you, Diane!  I barely remember much of the "winner" list.  I like many of the movies in the "didn't win" list.  But 2005 has to be the Oscar's worst choices ever.  They didn't just have bad taste, but they're also prejudice.  Yeah, BBM will weather through time.

[dly64]

The best reward? As much as watching this film hurts, it also makes me feel better. When you figure out why, please let me in on the reason.

I don't know that I have an answer, but I can say that BBM has affected me in a way that no other film has. There are other films that I adore and obsess over. However, my BBM obsession has lasted nearly a year and I don’t see it ending any time soon. I have gotten to the point (finally) where I am not watching it every day, but I still watch it weekly. There is so much to love and to see. Even though I have seen it too many times to count, I still see something new every time I watch it. And of course, with forums like BM, I hear other POV, which have really enriched my understanding. I’ve never experienced anything like this. I doubt that I ever will again!

[JT]

The best reward? As much as watching this film hurts, it also makes me feel better. When you figure out why, please let me in on the reason.

You know, I feel the same way when I watch this movie.  I don't know why either.  It even helps me lower my blood pressure!  To me, maybe this movie has some hidden tranquilness that secretly affects us, maybe it's the subject matter that finally hit the mainstream and becomes more visible, or maybe constant pain these characters express is something we all can relate to, but I know either.  This movie has an impact on me more than any other movie that I loved.

[Brown Eyes]

I'm going to do one of my favorite tricks and copy this from the main stats page on imdb about our beloved Brokeback.

Awards: Won 3 Oscars. Another 68 wins & 57 nominations

I love that.  It always makes me feel better when I get to worrying about the whole Oscars debacle.  The list posted in the first post of this thread is also amazing to consider in light of what happened to Brokeback.  In a similar vein, I wonder how many other movies have ever won this many awards/ nominations?

All of these things never fail to make me feel better.

The sad thing about how imdb records this is that they highlight the Oscars as if they're really all that much more important than those other "68 wins."  Within those 68 are some hugely prestigious awards, including the Venice Golden Lion (as mentioned previously), the Golden Globes, etc., etc.   

And of course the MTV Best Kiss.   

[JT]

I don't know but another 68 wins and 57 nominations sound pretty darn good to me for a movie that didn't win oscar's best pictures.  Now anyone here know how many other awards and nominations the oscar best picture "winner" actually won?  Or do we care?

[HerrKaiser]

In spite of the real truth that Academy Award winners are, generally, a result of massive politics, money, and favoritism (what isn't?  ) , I am "fretting" about the unfair lose BBM suffered at the awards.

The Acadamy almost always plays it safe for the mass audience and their bread and butter. Midnight Cowboy was really the only time they awarded a truly breakthrough film the top honor. Often, the academy awards the so-called mainstream, popular films while allowing the more true-to-the-art awards be handled by film festivals, guild associations, etc.

In spite of this, BBM deserved on every level to win. Crash was only, if at all, partially breakthrough or innovative. There have been many great and award winning films on the theme of race relations, but no other film has effectively broached the subject matter of BBM previously.

And by the by, only one other time in its entire history has the academy awarded a film best picture without winning the director/writing double play or any acting awards at all. Only ONCE!

[JT]

32 wins, 55 other nominations

Less than have the wins BBM got?  The Oscars were indeed playing favoritism.  I guess we all know that with out looking at all those wins.