Author Topic: Horse is falling off the menu in France  (Read 21975 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Horse is falling off the menu in France
« on: December 16, 2009, 07:14:58 pm »
Ew-ww  :-\


PARIS (Reuters) – Many people love horses and traditionally, many French people have loved them even more with a side of salad.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091215/od_nm/us_horse_meat

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 07:35:18 pm »
What people choose to worry about ... Sheesh!

Back in the early 70's I remember horse being sold in Canadian grocery stores for the simple reason that it was cheaper. Tasted tougher than beef and it didn't take as a part of the Canadian diet.

Like most people I too eat a lot more chicken than I use to, however, my doctor has advised me I had a B-12 deficiency, from lack of red meat eating. Indeed I had unknowingly virtually stopped eating red meat.

Horse meat is a cheaper variety of red meat, a good cheaper sourse of B-12 than beef (that is not available in chicken or pork). I was also told that the body does not absorb B-12 as well from vegetable sources (I do enjoy my veggies). FYI, I now take B-12 injections once a month.

"It disturbs us that people continue to eat horses at all and we are going to go on campaigning until people stop eating it altogether," said Constance Cluset, a spokeswoman for the animal welfare group created by the former actress."

(This last comment is obviously stated by someone and for people who don't have a lot of respect for pluralism.)

Animal rights advocates and vegetarian terrorists, such as Brigitte Bardot are not respecting the natural need of humans ... that we naturally need both vegetables and meat in out diet. Horse is just another meat sourse, one I don't enjoy eating, (like I'm not partial to fish either) however, to have horse re-labeled as a companian animal instead of a sourse of food is wasteful.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 07:42:35 pm »
I guess...but if I accept horse, I guess I'll have to start accepting dog and cat meat as well.  :P

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 07:51:44 pm »
I guess...but if I accept horse, I guess I'll have to start accepting dog and cat meat as well.  :P

And when horse is no longer on the menu, what next? Rabbit? Bear? Moose? Seal? - oh wait - they (Europeans) are already banning Seal - and the seal population of the North Atlantic has boomed, drastically reducing even further the availability of Atlantic fish.

Same problem happened when bear hunting was banned in recent years. Now there's a bear population boom and they are terrorizing Northern towns in search of food.

People should stop unscientifically messing with the order of things, based on emotional criteria.

As for dogs, I do believe they are a part of the Korean diet. Let be.

Just trying to be more pluralistic.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 08:03:23 pm »

And when horse is no longer on the menu, what next? Rabbit? Bear? Moose? Seal? - oh wait - they (Europeans) are already banning Seal - and the seal population of the North Atlantic has boomed, drastically reducing even further the availability of Atlantic fish.

Oh, so it's the seal's fault the Atlantic has been overfished?   ::)

Quote
Same problem happened when bear hunting was banned in recent years. Now there's a bear population boom and they are terrorizing Northern towns in search of food.

So it's the bear's fault that their prey is no longer around and they have to scrounge in trashcans?   ::)

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 08:18:40 pm »
Your arguments are un-scientific. Merely argumentative, IMO.

For one thing, I didn't suggest that the only reason there's a decline in fish availability in the North Atlantic is due to the seal overpopulation. I said it has exasperated the problem in spite of efforts to curb fishing quotas.

As for the bear population of the North, just how much of it's natural food stock (berries and fresh water fish) do you think the human population has removed? Sheesh!

http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?id=83

Black bears will eat almost anything available. Most of their food is plant material, especially in the late summer and autumn when berries and nuts are available. Favourite fruits include blueberries, buffalo berries, strawberries, elderberries, Saskatoon berries, black cherries, and apples. Acorns, hazelnuts, and beechnuts are other preferred foods. Insects such as ants rate high, and black bears will overturn logs, old stumps, and stones while hunting for food.

Fish, small mammals, and birds are sometimes on the black bear’s menu. In the spring some bears may prey upon newborn moose calves, deer fawns, caribou calves, or elk calves. Bears are also attracted by carrion, or dead animal flesh. People often think that bears are honey-lovers (perhaps because of the story of Winnie-the-Pooh). In fact, bears are much more interested in insects, and they are probably more attracted by the larvae than by the honey they find in the hives.
 


Your rebuttal was baseless.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 08:35:55 pm »
Your arguments are un-scientific. Merely argumentative, IMO.

For one thing, I didn't suggest that the only reason there's a decline in fish availability in the North Atlantic is due to the seal overpopulation. I said it has exasperated the problem in spite of efforts to curb fishing quotas.

As for the bear population of the North, just how much of it's natural food stock (berries and fresh water fish) do you think the human population has removed? Sheesh!

http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?id=83

Black bears will eat almost anything available. Most of their food is plant material, especially in the late summer and autumn when berries and nuts are available. Favourite fruits include blueberries, buffalo berries, strawberries, elderberries, Saskatoon berries, black cherries, and apples. Acorns, hazelnuts, and beechnuts are other preferred foods. Insects such as ants rate high, and black bears will overturn logs, old stumps, and stones while hunting for food.

Fish, small mammals, and birds are sometimes on the black bear’s menu. In the spring some bears may prey upon newborn moose calves, deer fawns, caribou calves, or elk calves. Bears are also attracted by carrion, or dead animal flesh. People often think that bears are honey-lovers (perhaps because of the story of Winnie-the-Pooh). In fact, bears are much more interested in insects, and they are probably more attracted by the larvae than by the honey they find in the hives.
 


Your rebuttal was baseless.

My rebuttal was not baseless.  Considering the yearly tonnage of fishcatch from the Atlantic by several nations over the last century, the idea is laughable that seals have any sort of blame in the attempt to recover the fish populations.  The devastation of which of course, the U.S. Fisheries Department repeatedly warned the fishing industry, which they chose to ignore until the prime fishing areas were depleted and closed off.

It's hysterical that ANYone would put forth even the tiniest bit of blame of the absolute rape of the fishing areas on the growth of seal populations.

"All scientific efforts to find an effect of seal predation on Canadian groundfish stocks have failed to show any impact. Overfishing remains the only scientifically demonstrated conservation problem related to fish stock collapse." From a petition signd by 97 scientists from 15 countries at the 11th Biennial Conference on the Biology of Marine Mammals, Dec.1995
http://www.gan.ca/campaigns/seal+hunt/factsheets/seals+and+fisheries.en.html

Quote
As for the bear population of the North, just how much of it's natural food stock (berries and fresh water fish) do you think the human population has removed? Sheesh!

I don't know.  How much of that land has been paved over and made into subdivisions?  How much of it plowed under to raise sheep and cattle?  We're not picking the berries if that's what you thought I meant.


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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 11:41:51 pm »
I guess...but if I accept horse, I guess I'll have to start accepting dog and cat meat as well.  :P

"Dogs are wonderful, and in many ways unique. But they are remarkably unremarkable in their intellectual and experiential capacities. Pigs are every bit as intelligent and feeling, by any sensible definition of the words. They can't hop into the back of a Volvo, but they can fetch, run and play, be mischievous, and reciprocate affection. So why don't they get to curl up by the fire? Why can't they at least be spared being tossed on the fire?

"Our taboo against dog eating says something about dogs and a great deal about us.

"The French, who love their dogs, sometimes eat their horses.

"The Spanish, who love their horses, sometimes eat their cows.

"The Indians, who love their cows, sometimes eat their dogs.

"While written in a much different context, George Orwell's words (from Animal Farm) apply here: 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.' The protective emphasis is not a law of nature; it comes from the stories we tell about nature."

-- Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2009, 12:56:04 am »
I've mentioned on BetterMost before that, for a little over a year now, I've been eating a mainly vegetarian diet.  I cheat once in a while and on special occasions (like Thanksgiving) I'll still eat meat... I mean I don't consider it an absolute prohibition.  But, for instance, I don't think I've purchased meat at the grocery store once this whole year.

A variety of things caused me to do this, but the main thing / motivating factor (in addition to news about animal abuse against stock reported from time to time)  that sticks out in my mind was walking through a cow pasture with Lee on the side of Brokenback Mountain during the summer of 08.  Seeing those cows and their calves and being so close to them has impacted me more than I can describe or rationalize (I know it's not a logical thing).  And, it's not like that was the first time I ever encountered cows before... but this image always stops me in my tracks especially when it comes to consuming beef.  I didn't stop eating meat right away after that... but by the fall of 08 I'd stopped.  

It seems very hard to me to judge what animals are worthy of not being eaten.  That kind of judgment seems completely subjective and culturally based to me.  When I really think about it... eating a pig seems as disturbing as eating a dog, since apparently pigs are at least as intelligent as a dog, if not more so.

People need to make their own decisions about what they're comfortable with, what their health requires, etc.  I think it's important for people to be conscious of what they're doing when they decide to eat meat though.  It seems way too easy to think of meat as an abstraction... especially with the way it's packaged in modern grocery stores.
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2009, 02:27:07 am »
In case I didn't make myself clear, it's not Beef or Horse or Dog or Seal or being a Carnivore or a Vegetarian that bothers me. It's the people who insist (like the Brigitte Bardot cults of the world) that others should think as they do.

I don't 'yuk' at the idea of eating a dog, or any meat. I don't like eating fish, don't mean I'm gonna try and discourage others from enjoying it.

I'm just tired of the sanctimonious amongst us who feel they have a monopoly on what is right for all.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2009, 12:27:27 pm »
"Dogs are wonderful, and in many ways unique. But they are remarkably unremarkable in their intellectual and experiential capacities. Pigs are every bit as intelligent and feeling, by any sensible definition of the words. They can't hop into the back of a Volvo, but they can fetch, run and play, be mischievous, and reciprocate affection. So why don't they get to curl up by the fire? Why can't they at least be spared being tossed on the fire?

"Our taboo against dog eating says something about dogs and a great deal about us.

"The French, who love their dogs, sometimes eat their horses.

"The Spanish, who love their horses, sometimes eat their cows.

"The Indians, who love their cows, sometimes eat their dogs.

"While written in a much different context, George Orwell's words (from Animal Farm) apply here: 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.' The protective emphasis is not a law of nature; it comes from the stories we tell about nature."

-- Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals.

Well, the problem is, sometimes people love their horses and then eat them, too.

As Roland points out, humans are omnivores.  We succeed in life because like bears, we're capable of eating anything in front of us.  We were not designed primarily as vegetarians as our digestive system design shows, and we digest proteins the easiest.  Pound for pound, meat gives the most bang for the buck (so to speak).  Giving a tough trial in the wilderness, we would not only eat our dogs, cats, rats and horses - any creature within reach, we'd also eat any other creature we'd be able to catch.  Though given a lack of a gun or any modern aids, that would be quite difficult.

I've mentioned on BetterMost before that, for a little over a year now, I've been eating a mainly vegetarian diet.  I cheat once in a while and on special occasions (like Thanksgiving) I'll still eat meat... I mean I don't consider it an absolute prohibition.  But, for instance, I don't think I've purchased meat at the grocery store once this whole year.

A variety of things caused me to do this, but the main thing / motivating factor (in addition to news about animal abuse against stock reported from time to time)  that sticks out in my mind was walking through a cow pasture with Lee on the side of Brokenback Mountain during the summer of 08.  Seeing those cows and their calves and being so close to them has impacted me more than I can describe or rationalize (I know it's not a logical thing).  And, it's not like that was the first time I ever encountered cows before... but this image always stops me in my tracks especially when it comes to consuming beef.  I didn't stop eating meat right away after that... but by the fall of 08 I'd stopped.  

It seems very hard to me to judge what animals are worthy of not being eaten.

I hear you, atz.  But as you said it's a personal decision.  While backpacking in the mountains in Wyoming, my group ran across some cows as well.  A friend of mine - a country girl used to cattle - was disgusted.  The presence of them ruined the trip over the pass for her.  The pass was full of cow pats and cow ticks and she called them stupid...let's just say the sight of them didn't move her to want to eat steaks any less.

Like Ennis and Jack, livestock was just meat on the hoof to her.

However, that being said, I find myself dismayed at the cruelty at which our livestock is killed.  I thought for the most part there were laws reinforcing the humaneness of the kill.  A man who worked as a cattle butcher told me about the techniques they used.  But apparently the laws are not as strict as I thought.  Stuff I read from PETA on chickens is horrifying and on another board I went to, when describing the worst jobs we ever had, one guy wrote about his job pig killing.  How he had to go into the stockyards and kill all the sick pigs by beating them to death.  He talked about the blood and the screams of the pigs and it was just sickening to read.  Yet vegetables don't appeal to me that much and a great many of the sweet and starchy ones I shouldn't eat, so a diet heavy in meat suits me a lot better.

To live, something else must die.  Plants are just a lesser evil since we can't hear them scream, but botanists can tell you that when you do cut plants, they recoil, so they are experiencing some sort of reflex to being damaged.  If we could survive on air and water, we would.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2009, 02:16:34 pm »
So, anybody know what "cut" of horse is considered best? And how to cook it?
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2009, 02:25:15 pm »
The loin, I would imagine.

Why is it a problem that people love their horses and also eat them? That's what the Mongolians did, and they were quite successful in Genghis Khan's day. (This exhibit is at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, and I want to see it very badly!) Horses provided not only transportation but also food, clothing, shelter, roping, and liquid sustenance (milk).

As for pigs, I loved the pigs that made the journey from Lonesome Dove to Montana in the book Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry. They were smart animals and their owner wouldn't think of killing them for food!! (unless he needed to.)

I love the chickens I have now and they are producing tasty eggs, but when the time comes, they'll be making their final appearance on the family dining table.

I also love my plants, and think of them as sentient beings just as much as animals are. They don't talk much, but they get their point across!
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2009, 02:41:23 pm »
Why is it a problem that people love their horses and also eat them? That's what the Mongolians did, and they were quite successful in Genghis Khan's day. (This exhibit is at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, and I want to see it very badly!) Horses provided not only transportation but also food, clothing, shelter, roping, and liquid sustenance (milk).

The betrayal, I imagine.  Once they outlived their usefulness in other ways to us, after we developed a bond of trust with them, we didn't wait for them to die, we killed them.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2009, 03:02:53 pm »
Giving a tough trial in the wilderness, we would not only eat our dogs, cats, rats and horses - any creature within reach, we'd also eat any other creature we'd be able to catch.

And sometimes even each other.

Hey, it's been known to happen. ...
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2009, 03:06:03 pm »
And sometimes even each other.

Hey, it's been known to happen. ...

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2009, 04:01:27 pm »
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

And I love children. Especially with stuffing and gravy. ...
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2009, 04:32:51 pm »
Giving a tough trial in the wilderness, we would not only eat our dogs, cats, rats and horses - any creature within reach, we'd also eat any other creature we'd be able to catch.

Including humans, according to the movie (and, I assume, the book) The Road.


Quote
However, that being said, I find myself dismayed at the cruelty at which our livestock is killed.  I thought for the most part there were laws reinforcing the humaneness of the kill.  A man who worked as a cattle butcher told me about the techniques they used.  But apparently the laws are not as strict as I thought.  Stuff I read from PETA on chickens is horrifying and on another board I went to, when describing the worst jobs we ever had, one guy wrote about his job pig killing.  How he had to go into the stockyards and kill all the sick pigs by beating them to death.  He talked about the blood and the screams of the pigs and it was just sickening to read.

The book that I quoted above (Eating Meat, by Jonathan Safran Foer) brought home some things that I already knew at some level but tried to suppress, and put them in vivid, awful detail. For example, 1) Not only do meat animals die horrifying deaths -- what's worse, factory-farmed animals live horrifying lives, spending their entire existence in cramped, dark, airless compartments -- in the case of chickens, cages the size of a sheet of printer paper -- bred or drugged or mutilated in ways that maximize meat production but cause discomfort, deformity and disease for the animals themselves 2) Almost all of the meat in this country comes from factory farms 3) Chickens that provide eggs and cows that provide milk don't have it much, if any, better, so anybody who isn't a vegan isn't entirely absolved of complicity in this process.

On the other hand, eating meat makes us human in a very literal sense. There's archeological evidence that eating meat -- both consuming the additional protein plus the demands of trying to outsmart larger, fiercer animals -- caused our ancestors' brains to grow bigger.

Quote
To live, something else must die.  Plants are just a lesser evil since we can't hear them scream, but botanists can tell you that when you do cut plants, they recoil, so they are experiencing some sort of reflex to being damaged.  If we could survive on air and water, we would.

If you are really concerned about killing plants, you can try to live off things you don't need to kill. For instance, if you eat an apple, you're not killing an apple tree -- the apple is designed to be eaten. If you ate the whole thing, seeds and all, then pooped the seeds out in a place where another tree could grow, you would be performing the exact service for the apple population that nature intended.



Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2009, 05:17:22 pm »

It seems true that there's little way out of the dilemma of harming animals one way or another when it comes to the food supply (somehow I'm simply not as concerned with plants as food).  Even the harvesting of vegetable crops often results in the death of animals living in the various fields, etc.

I still, on a personal level, can't eat meat anymore without feeling guilty.  It's definitely tasty, but I never feel particularly good about myself when I do eat it these days (and I'm not talking about calorie count here).  It doesn't seem at all necessary to me to eat meat on a regular basis (especially for a casual meal or quick/careless lunch or something), so I choose to do it very sparringly, or as I mentioned earlier... on special occasions.


LOL, there are also some sexual benefits to being a vegetarian (at least when it comes to women) that are pretty interesting... which is not at all why I've decided to go with a vegetarian diet.  But, I think that's one reason why a lot of lesbians are vegetarians.



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Offline milomorris

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 05:18:31 pm »
The book that I quoted above (Eating Meat, by Jonathan Safran Foer) brought home some things that I already knew at some level but tried to suppress, and put them in vivid, awful detail. For example, 1) Not only do meat animals die horrifying deaths -- what's worse, factory-farmed animals live horrifying lives, spending their entire existence in cramped, dark, airless compartments -- in the case of chickens, cages the size of a sheet of printer paper -- bred or drugged or mutilated in ways that maximize meat production but cause discomfort, deformity and disease for the animals themselves 2) Almost all of the meat in this country comes from factory farms 3) Chickens that provide eggs and cows that provide milk don't have it much, if any, better, so anybody who isn't a vegan isn't entirely absolved of complicity in this process.

Two thoughts:

1. I'm sure this stuff happens, but I have to wonder how widespread it really is. I have seen dairy farms here in the rural counties outside the Philadelphia area, and their cows spend all day grazing in the fields rather than stuck in airless stalls. So apparently there are people out there that do treat their animals humanely. At the same time, we know that there are those that do not.

2. Considering the way carnivores kill their prey in the wild, I'm not sure how much more horrifying the deaths of livestock are at the hands of humans.
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Offline Kelda

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 06:00:49 pm »
Ew-ww  :-\


PARIS (Reuters) – Many people love horses and traditionally, many French people have loved them even more with a side of salad.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091215/od_nm/us_horse_meat

I thin eating squireels and racoons are ewww, but some people in texas do that, as some people in asia eat dog...

Live an let live I say!

Hay we even eat haggis here... do a search on what THAT is!!! 

And I love children. Especially with stuffing and gravy. ...
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 06:06:47 pm »
I thin eating squireels and racoons are ewww, but some people in texas do that

They're possums not raccoons.  HELLO!  ::)  ;) ;)  :laugh:

Eating tree rodents is poor folk food.  My mother says possum is kinda greasy. 

Quote
Hay we even eat haggis here... do a search on what THAT is!!! 
 :laugh:

I know what it is - ew-ww...anytime you eat guts, it's poor folk food.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2009, 06:46:44 pm »
I know what it is - ew-ww...anytime you eat guts, it's poor folk food.

Chit'lin's, anyone??
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2009, 06:51:22 pm »
Chit'lin's, anyone??

I had fried tripe for the first time back in April.  Not sure if it was pig or beef.  I'm thinking it was pig, because what it tasted like was not-quite-dried porkrind.  Yummy!!!!

But I've never liked menudo.  So there you go.

Offline Kelda

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2009, 06:53:35 pm »
They're possums not raccoons.  HELLO!  ::)  ;) ;)  :laugh:

Eating tree rodents is poor folk food.  My mother says possum is kinda greasy. 

I know what it is - ew-ww...anytime you eat guts, it's poor folk food.

Nah haggis is a treat.
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2009, 10:58:05 pm »
I know what it is - ew-ww...anytime you eat guts, it's poor folk food.

Pig stomach is a Pennsylvania Dutch specialty. You stuff it with sausage meat and diced potatoes, and then you bake it. My grandmother would make it once a year. I'd eat the sausage and potatoes--not bad--but I could never bring myself to eat the stomach.  :P

"Poor folk" are thrifty. They use every part of the pig except the squeal.  ;D
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2009, 08:41:32 am »
I could never bring myself to eat the stomach.  :P

You couldn't stomach it?  ;D


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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2009, 09:27:06 am »
They're possums not raccoons.  HELLO!  ::)  ;) ;)  :laugh:

Eating tree rodents is poor folk food.  My mother says possum is kinda greasy. 

I know what it is - ew-ww...anytime you eat guts, it's poor folk food.
Maybe Haggis used to be poor folk food, but the prices I´ve paid for it in London suggests it no longer is that. I´ve tried it twice and quite like it.

I like meat and I have no moral dilemma regarding it. There are millions of people starving in this world, so I´m quite happy to eat it.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2009, 10:08:45 am »
Maybe Haggis used to be poor folk food, but the prices I´ve paid for it in London suggests it no longer is that.  I´ve tried it twice and quite like it.

I like meat and I have no moral dilemma regarding it. There are millions of people starving in this world, so I´m quite happy to eat it.

It's poor people's food until it starts to become popular, then the price starts rising.  Same thing happened here in the SW U.S.  Fajitas used to be something done to make a cheap cut of meat - flank steak, I think it is - more palatable.  Well, the popularity of the dish took off.  Now the prices on flank steak and the price of fajitas in restaurants is no longer cheap.

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2009, 10:14:47 am »
Pig stomach is a Pennsylvania Dutch specialty. You stuff it with sausage meat and diced potatoes, and then you bake it. My grandmother would make it once a year. I'd eat the sausage and potatoes--not bad--but I could never bring myself to eat the stomach.  :P



Wow! Your ancestors brought this tradition from the Palatinate over to the New World. Pig stomach = Saumagen. That's a Palatinate specialty!

Maybe you remember our former chancellor Helmut Kohl. He was from this area and was famous for (mis)treating forgeign heads of states with this specialty from his beloved home region. The thought alone made me shudder back then.
But since we moved to this area, we see pig stomach sometimes on the menu (at restaurants, etc.). One day, a friend of mine was just having pig stomach for lunch when I came by. It didn't look bad, so I tried it. Very cautiously BTW. And I liked it!
In the Palatinate, there are very serious pig stomach contests every year :laugh:. And it's definitively not poor folks' food (anymore).


Del's reply came in while writing.


Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2009, 10:21:17 am »
Why do I bothter to explain, when everything is so professionally illustrated on wikipedia? :laugh:

The even have the Helmut Kohl part explained ;D. And they state that pig stomach is similar to haggis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saumagen

Offline milomorris

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2009, 11:14:32 am »
It's poor people's food until it starts to become popular, then the price starts rising.  Same thing happened here in the SW U.S.  Fajitas used to be something done to make a cheap cut of meat - flank steak, I think it is - more palatable.  Well, the popularity of the dish took off.  Now the prices on flank steak and the price of fajitas in restaurants is no longer cheap.

Good point. And let's not forget there was a time in US history when nobody wanted to eat lobster either.
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2009, 11:15:56 am »
... the main thing / motivating factor (in addition to news about animal abuse against stock reported from time to time)  that sticks out in my mind was walking through a cow pasture with Lee on the side of Brokenback Mountain during the summer of 08.  Seeing those cows and their calves and being so close to them has impacted me more than I can describe or rationalize (I know it's not a logical thing).  And, it's not like that was the first time I ever encountered cows before... but this image always stops me in my tracks especially when it comes to consuming beef.  I didn't stop eating meat right away after that... but by the fall of 08 I'd stopped.  
I remember that day, friend! It was very elegaic walking down the slopes of Brokenback through the cow pastures. Some of the cows had white faces and it reminded me so much of the beginning of the movie we had just seen, The Dark Knight. Remember the part where the bank robbers wore sad clown masks? These cows had sad white faces too and I could almost imagine them taking off their masks and there being a person underneath. So, I can very much understand your reaction. It also reminded me of a scene in Amarcord, the Fellini movie, where the young boy is walking home from school in the fog and sees a monster ahead of him. When he gets closer, it turns out to be a cow looking at him with that dumb expressive face.
It seems way too easy to think of meat as an abstraction... especially with the way it's packaged in modern grocery stores.
This is definitely true. All meat eaters should be in touch with the processes of raising and butchering the meat that they eat. Hunting, fishing, visiting farms, being in the country...sheepherding.  ;)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2009, 11:33:31 am »
Wow! Your ancestors brought this tradition from the Palatinate over to the New World. Pig stomach = Saumagen. That's a Palatinate specialty!

I'd never really thought about it that way, but of course it makes perfect sense! All those thrifty Calvinists who came to Pennsylvania from the Palatinate would never let any part of the pig go to waste!

I'd never heard the part about Helmut Kohl. That's pretty funny. I didn't know he was a Pfalzer.  :)

I think in other parts of the U.S. (South?) pig stomach is called hog maw. On the old 1960s situation comedy The Beverly Hillbillies, they used to talk about eating hog maw--and also 'possum.

"My people" don't eat 'possum, but they do eat groundhog. I once asked my dad if he'd ever eaten groundhog. He said had once, and he didn't much care for it. The volunteer fire department where my maternal grandfather (hence my dad's father-in-law) was a member had a "Groundhog Supper." Dad said he couldn't get out of trying the roast groundhog--he said the meat is very dark--but my mother utterly refused to taste it!

Edit to add:

Oh, gosh, Grandma once wanted to make pig stomach for Thanksgiving--my mother put a stop to that idea rather quick, volunteering to cook the dinner herself rather than have pig stomach for Thanksgiving!  :laugh:  I would bet, however, that it was just a coincidence; I doubt Grandma was aware that it was "traditional" among the Pennsylvania Germans for Thanksgiving. I've never heard it referred to as hog maw in my part of Pennsylvania.

That's still pretty funny about Helmut Kohl.  :)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2009, 08:32:46 pm »

Wow! Your ancestors brought this tradition...Pig stomach = Saumagen. That's a Palatinate specialty!

Yet another reason people immigrated to the New World.  ;) :laugh:

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2009, 09:48:32 pm »
The most unusual food I've ever tried is chicken feet in the Dominican Republic. It was definitely presented to me as a 'test' so opting out wasn't an option.  The closest description I have is ultra-crunchy french fries. :/
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2009, 10:19:41 pm »
I ate a fried pig's tail at a Zydeco festival in Louisiana. The flavor was fine -- like bacon -- though it was a bit too obviously ... a tail. It was curly.


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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2009, 10:27:39 pm »
I ate a fried pig's tail at a Zydeco festival in Louisiana. The flavor was fine -- like bacon -- though it was a bit too obviously ... a tail. It was curly.

Well, so are curly french fries. I bet bacon-flavored curly fries would be good!  ;D
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2009, 10:28:55 pm »
The most unusual food I've ever tried is chicken feet in the Dominican Republic. It was definitely presented to me as a 'test' so opting out wasn't an option.  The closest description I have is ultra-crunchy french fries. :/

Eeew. I think I'd have to use an awful lot of ketchup. ...  :-\
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2009, 10:54:50 pm »
Well, so are curly french fries. I bet bacon-flavored curly fries would be good!  ;D

Probably. Because you wouldn't be thinking about how you were eating a ... TAIL.


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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2009, 11:01:44 pm »
Probably. Because you wouldn't be thinking about how you were eating a ... TAIL.

Remember, I come from people who eat the pig's stomach. Eating the tail wouldn't faze me a bit. In fact I think I'd rather eat the tail than the stomach!
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2009, 11:21:36 pm »
Remember, I come from people who eat the pig's stomach. Eating the tail wouldn't faze me a bit. In fact I think I'd rather eat the tail than the stomach!

All right, then, I'm heading over right now with a plate of tails!







Offline milomorris

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2009, 12:30:53 am »
All right, then, I'm heading over right now with a plate of tails!

Ox tail is a frequent feature on menus in Soul Food and Jamaican restaurants. Good stuff.
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2009, 02:24:58 am »
All right, then, I'm heading over right now with a plate of tails!





That top photo makes them look hardly worth the bother of eating.  :-\
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2009, 04:21:06 am »
Yet another reason people immigrated to the New World.  ;) :laugh:


Ten years ago I would have completely agreed with you :laugh:.

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2009, 11:09:06 am »
That top photo makes them look hardly worth the bother of eating.  :-\

There's lots of good nutrients in the bony parts!
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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2009, 11:45:53 am »
There's lots of good nutrients in the bony parts!

I remember my great-grandparents sucking the marrow out of the bones of various cuts of meat and poultry when I was a kid. I do it myself sometimes. But I wouldn't suggest doing it in a restaurant.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2009, 11:52:19 am »
I remember my great-grandparents sucking the marrow out of the bones of various cuts of meat and poultry when I was a kid. I do it myself sometimes. But I wouldn't suggest doing it in a restaurant.

I suck marrow out of beef soup bones.  It's yummy.  Yeah, despite having very little meat on them, I can see the attraction of eating ox-tail.  People still use neck bones for soup and stock and the meat is very tasty, what little there is of it.  My favorite tamales are made out of the meat you scrape from the head of a pig.

Poor atz, guess she's averting her eyes now at this thread.  :-* 

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2009, 12:08:03 pm »
Poor atz, guess she's averting her eyes now at this thread.  :-* 

 :laugh:

I can understand her aversion. I'm not grossed out so much by what sorts of animals we eat, or which parts of their bodies. But I am appalled if I think too much about what we put the animals through.


Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2009, 12:40:04 pm »
Re ox tail: I bought ox tail soup today - and it's all your fault :laugh:.
When reading this thread, I got a hankering for it.  :)

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2009, 10:49:48 am »
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?em

December 22, 2009
Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too
By NATALIE ANGIER


I stopped eating pork about eight years ago, after a scientist happened to mention that the animal whose teeth most closely resemble our own is the pig. Unable to shake the image of a perky little pig flashing me a brilliant George Clooney smile, I decided it was easier to forgo the Christmas ham. A couple of years later, I gave up on all mammalian meat, period. I still eat fish and poultry, however and pour eggnog in my coffee. My dietary decisions are arbitrary and inconsistent, and when friends ask why I’m willing to try the duck but not the lamb, I don’t have a good answer. Food choices are often like that: difficult to articulate yet strongly held. And lately, debates over food choices have flared with particular vehemence.

In his new book, “Eating Animals,” the novelist Jonathan Safran Foer describes his gradual transformation from omnivorous, oblivious slacker who “waffled among any number of diets” to “committed vegetarian.” Last month, Gary Steiner, a philosopher at Bucknell University, argued on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times that people should strive to be “strict ethical vegans” like himself, avoiding all products derived from animals, including wool and silk. Killing animals for human food and finery is nothing less than “outright murder,” he said, Isaac Bashevis Singer’s “eternal Treblinka.”

But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to “committed vegetarians” and “strong ethical vegans,” we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot. This is not meant as a trite argument or a chuckled aside. Plants are lively and seek to keep it that way. The more that scientists learn about the complexity of plants — their keen sensitivity to the environment, the speed with which they react to changes in the environment, and the extraordinary number of tricks that plants will rally to fight off attackers and solicit help from afar — the more impressed researchers become, and the less easily we can dismiss plants as so much fiberfill backdrop, passive sunlight collectors on which deer, antelope and vegans can conveniently graze. It’s time for a green revolution, a reseeding of our stubborn animal minds.

When plant biologists speak of their subjects, they use active verbs and vivid images. Plants “forage” for resources like light and soil nutrients and “anticipate” rough spots and opportunities. By analyzing the ratio of red light and far red light falling on their leaves, for example, they can sense the presence of other chlorophyllated competitors nearby and try to grow the other way. Their roots ride the underground “rhizosphere” and engage in cross-cultural and microbial trade.

“Plants are not static or silly,” said Monika Hilker of the Institute of Biology at the Free University of Berlin. “They respond to tactile cues, they recognize different wavelengths of light, they listen to chemical signals, they can even talk” through chemical signals. Touch, sight, hearing, speech. “These are sensory modalities and abilities we normally think of as only being in animals,” Dr. Hilker said.

Plants can’t run away from a threat but they can stand their ground. “They are very good at avoiding getting eaten,” said Linda Walling of the University of California, Riverside. “It’s an unusual situation where insects can overcome those defenses.” At the smallest nip to its leaves, specialized cells on the plant’s surface release chemicals to irritate the predator or sticky goo to entrap it. Genes in the plant’s DNA are activated to wage systemwide chemical warfare, the plant’s version of an immune response. We need terpenes, alkaloids, phenolics — let’s move.

“I’m amazed at how fast some of these things happen,” said Consuelo M. De Moraes of Pennsylvania State University. Dr. De Moraes and her colleagues did labeling experiments to clock a plant’s systemic response time and found that, in less than 20 minutes from the moment the caterpillar had begun feeding on its leaves, the plant had plucked carbon from the air and forged defensive compounds from scratch.

Just because we humans can’t hear them doesn’t mean plants don’t howl. Some of the compounds that plants generate in response to insect mastication — their feedback, you might say — are volatile chemicals that serve as cries for help. Such airborne alarm calls have been shown to attract both large predatory insects like dragon flies, which delight in caterpillar meat, and tiny parasitic insects, which can infect a caterpillar and destroy it from within.

Enemies of the plant’s enemies are not the only ones to tune into the emergency broadcast. “Some of these cues, some of these volatiles that are released when a focal plant is damaged,” said Richard Karban of the University of California, Davis, “cause other plants of the same species, or even of another species, to likewise become more resistant to herbivores.”

Yes, it’s best to nip trouble in the bud.

Dr. Hilker and her colleagues, as well as other research teams, have found that certain plants can sense when insect eggs have been deposited on their leaves and will act immediately to rid themselves of the incubating menace. They may sprout carpets of tumorlike neoplasms to knock the eggs off, or secrete ovicides to kill them, or sound the S O S. Reporting in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Dr. Hilker and her coworkers determined that when a female cabbage butterfly lays her eggs on a brussels sprout plant and attaches her treasures to the leaves with tiny dabs of glue, the vigilant vegetable detects the presence of a simple additive in the glue, benzyl cyanide. Cued by the additive, the plant swiftly alters the chemistry of its leaf surface to beckon female parasitic wasps. Spying the anchored bounty, the female wasps in turn inject their eggs inside, the gestating wasps feed on the gestating butterflies, and the plant’s problem is solved.

Here’s the lurid Edgar Allan Poetry of it: that benzyl cyanide tip-off had been donated to the female butterfly by the male during mating. “It’s an anti-aphrodisiac pheromone, so that the female wouldn’t mate anymore,” Dr. Hilker said. “The male is trying to ensure his paternity, but he ends up endangering his own offspring.”

Plants eavesdrop on one another benignly and malignly. As they described in Science and other journals, Dr. De Moraes and her colleagues have discovered that seedlings of the dodder plant, a parasitic weed related to morning glory, can detect volatile chemicals released by potential host plants like the tomato. The young dodder then grows inexorably toward the host, until it can encircle the victim’s stem and begin sucking the life phloem right out of it. The parasite can even distinguish between the scents of healthier and weaker tomato plants and then head for the hale one.

“Even if you have quite a bit of knowledge about plants,” Dr. De Moraes said, “it’s still surprising to see how sophisticated they can be.”

It’s a small daily tragedy that we animals must kill to stay alive. Plants are the ethical autotrophs here, the ones that wrest their meals from the sun. Don’t expect them to boast: they’re too busy fighting to survive.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2009, 01:21:15 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?em

December 22, 2009
Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too
By NATALIE ANGIER


I stopped eating pork about eight years ago, after a scientist happened to mention that the animal whose teeth most closely resemble our own is the pig. Unable to shake the image of a perky little pig flashing me a brilliant George Clooney smile, I decided it was easier to forgo the Christmas ham. A couple of years later, I gave up on all mammalian meat, period. I still eat fish and poultry, however and pour eggnog in my coffee. My dietary decisions are arbitrary and inconsistent, and when friends ask why I’m willing to try the duck but not the lamb, I don’t have a good answer. Food choices are often like that: difficult to articulate yet strongly held. And lately, debates over food choices have flared with particular vehemence.

In his new book, “Eating Animals,” the novelist Jonathan Safran Foer describes his gradual transformation from omnivorous, oblivious slacker who “waffled among any number of diets” to “committed vegetarian.” Last month, Gary Steiner, a philosopher at Bucknell University, argued on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times that people should strive to be “strict ethical vegans” like himself, avoiding all products derived from animals, including wool and silk. Killing animals for human food and finery is nothing less than “outright murder,” he said, Isaac Bashevis Singer’s “eternal Treblinka.”

But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to “committed vegetarians” and “strong ethical vegans,” we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot. This is not meant as a trite argument or a chuckled aside. Plants are lively and seek to keep it that way. The more that scientists learn about the complexity of plants — their keen sensitivity to the environment, the speed with which they react to changes in the environment, and the extraordinary number of tricks that plants will rally to fight off attackers and solicit help from afar — the more impressed researchers become, and the less easily we can dismiss plants as so much fiberfill backdrop, passive sunlight collectors on which deer, antelope and vegans can conveniently graze. It’s time for a green revolution, a reseeding of our stubborn animal minds.

When plant biologists speak of their subjects, they use active verbs and vivid images. Plants “forage” for resources like light and soil nutrients and “anticipate” rough spots and opportunities. By analyzing the ratio of red light and far red light falling on their leaves, for example, they can sense the presence of other chlorophyllated competitors nearby and try to grow the other way. Their roots ride the underground “rhizosphere” and engage in cross-cultural and microbial trade.

“Plants are not static or silly,” said Monika Hilker of the Institute of Biology at the Free University of Berlin. “They respond to tactile cues, they recognize different wavelengths of light, they listen to chemical signals, they can even talk” through chemical signals. Touch, sight, hearing, speech. “These are sensory modalities and abilities we normally think of as only being in animals,” Dr. Hilker said.

Plants can’t run away from a threat but they can stand their ground. “They are very good at avoiding getting eaten,” said Linda Walling of the University of California, Riverside. “It’s an unusual situation where insects can overcome those defenses.” At the smallest nip to its leaves, specialized cells on the plant’s surface release chemicals to irritate the predator or sticky goo to entrap it. Genes in the plant’s DNA are activated to wage systemwide chemical warfare, the plant’s version of an immune response. We need terpenes, alkaloids, phenolics — let’s move.

“I’m amazed at how fast some of these things happen,” said Consuelo M. De Moraes of Pennsylvania State University. Dr. De Moraes and her colleagues did labeling experiments to clock a plant’s systemic response time and found that, in less than 20 minutes from the moment the caterpillar had begun feeding on its leaves, the plant had plucked carbon from the air and forged defensive compounds from scratch.

Just because we humans can’t hear them doesn’t mean plants don’t howl. Some of the compounds that plants generate in response to insect mastication — their feedback, you might say — are volatile chemicals that serve as cries for help. Such airborne alarm calls have been shown to attract both large predatory insects like dragon flies, which delight in caterpillar meat, and tiny parasitic insects, which can infect a caterpillar and destroy it from within.

Enemies of the plant’s enemies are not the only ones to tune into the emergency broadcast. “Some of these cues, some of these volatiles that are released when a focal plant is damaged,” said Richard Karban of the University of California, Davis, “cause other plants of the same species, or even of another species, to likewise become more resistant to herbivores.”

Yes, it’s best to nip trouble in the bud.

Dr. Hilker and her colleagues, as well as other research teams, have found that certain plants can sense when insect eggs have been deposited on their leaves and will act immediately to rid themselves of the incubating menace. They may sprout carpets of tumorlike neoplasms to knock the eggs off, or secrete ovicides to kill them, or sound the S O S. Reporting in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Dr. Hilker and her coworkers determined that when a female cabbage butterfly lays her eggs on a brussels sprout plant and attaches her treasures to the leaves with tiny dabs of glue, the vigilant vegetable detects the presence of a simple additive in the glue, benzyl cyanide. Cued by the additive, the plant swiftly alters the chemistry of its leaf surface to beckon female parasitic wasps. Spying the anchored bounty, the female wasps in turn inject their eggs inside, the gestating wasps feed on the gestating butterflies, and the plant’s problem is solved.

Here’s the lurid Edgar Allan Poetry of it: that benzyl cyanide tip-off had been donated to the female butterfly by the male during mating. “It’s an anti-aphrodisiac pheromone, so that the female wouldn’t mate anymore,” Dr. Hilker said. “The male is trying to ensure his paternity, but he ends up endangering his own offspring.”

Plants eavesdrop on one another benignly and malignly. As they described in Science and other journals, Dr. De Moraes and her colleagues have discovered that seedlings of the dodder plant, a parasitic weed related to morning glory, can detect volatile chemicals released by potential host plants like the tomato. The young dodder then grows inexorably toward the host, until it can encircle the victim’s stem and begin sucking the life phloem right out of it. The parasite can even distinguish between the scents of healthier and weaker tomato plants and then head for the hale one.

“Even if you have quite a bit of knowledge about plants,” Dr. De Moraes said, “it’s still surprising to see how sophisticated they can be.”

It’s a small daily tragedy that we animals must kill to stay alive. Plants are the ethical autotrophs here, the ones that wrest their meals from the sun. Don’t expect them to boast: they’re too busy fighting to survive.

Yep.  The only reason vegetarianism is thought of as more ethical than killing animals to eat is simply because the plants' suffering isn't obvious to our senses.  Yes, when we eat the fruits and seeds of the plants, we are helping them do what they went through all the trouble to make the fruit/seeds for in the first place, but that's not all we eat.  Some vegetables and fruits, we eat the plant buds, we eat the stalk, we eat the roots and tops.  We basically kill the plant to eat it.

In order to live, something somewhere has to die.

Offline Lynne

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2009, 02:24:02 pm »
One of my physics professors at Sewanee - Dr. Francis Hart - was doing research about measurable responses in plants to stimuli, both positive and negative...he found what he thought of as conclusive evidence that plants do indeed experience a sense of 'pain'.  I wonder what's happened to his research and where/if it was published.  I'll have to check.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 04:36:21 pm by Lynne »
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Horse is falling off the menu in France
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2009, 04:35:11 pm »
But I'm still gonna eat Brussels sprouts. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.