symbols that are different in the story vs the movie

[nakymaton]

Ok, yeah, so I know I'm the biggest symbolism-basher on the entire board, just about. But I was quoting a story passage in another thread, and it struck me that, although there are symbols that are used the same way in both the story and the movie, there are some things that are used very differently.

Take beans, for instance.

So in the movie, "beans" become a sort of symbol for the things that Ennis is willing to live with, but Jack won't.

But in the story?

Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams, Jack as he had first seen him, curly-headed and smiling and bucktoothed, talking about getting up off his pockets and into the control zone, but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of comic obscenity. The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron. And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets.

Alma was saying something about taking his friend to the Knife & Fork for supper instead of cooking it was so hot, if they could get a baby-sitter, but Ennis said more likely he'd just go out with Jack and get drunk. Jack was not a restaurant type, he said, thinking of the dirty spoons sticking out of the cans of cold beans balanced on the log.

They had a high-time supper by the fire, a can of beans each, fried potatoes and a quart of whiskey on shares, sat with their backs against a log, boot soles and copper jeans rivets hot, swapping the bottle while the lavender sky emptied of color and the chill air drained down, drinking, smoking cigarettes, getting up every now and then to piss, firelight throwing a sparkle in the arched stream, tossing sticks on the fire to keep the talk going, talking horses and rodeo, roughstock events, wrecks and injuries sustained, the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands and how it must have been in the last doomed minutes, dogs each had owned and known, the draft, Jack's home ranch where his father and mother held on, Ennis's family place folded years ago after his folks died, the older brother in Signal and a married sister in Casper.

So what do the beans symbolize in the story? I mean, they scream "yo! symbolism ahoy!" to me, and I'm pretty much deaf to that sort of thing. But I can't figure out for the life of me what they represent. I mean, there they are in the scene where Ennis feels like he can paw the white out of the moon, and then Ennis thinks about the beans before the reunion, and then they are this bizarre nightmarish image that spoils the memory/dreams of Jack. So what are they? Are they, I don't know, love threatened by homophobia (represented by the spoon, of all the crazy utensils to seem threatening)? Or are they something more subtle than that?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I don't have the text in front of me, so it's probably unwise to reply, but maybe it's just that they ate a lot of beans that summer, so in his memory Ennis came to associate beans with being with Jack up on Brokeback?

That's a pretty poor meal to be a high-time supper, beans and fried potatoes. Not even any bacon to go with. Or biscuits--though biscuits are mentioned elsewhere.

[serious crayons]

Just thinking out loud, without actually going back and reading the whole story first, as I really should, but ... In each example, a can of bean seems connected to their relationship on Brokeback. Maybe not even their specific relationship, but maybe theirs as representing gay relationships in a larger sense.

In the third example, that relationship is in its natural context, happy and carefree.

In the second, the relationship is in conflict with society, in the form of Alma and a restaurant. It's interesting that they eat beans with a spoon, but Alma suggests going to the knife and fork, the opposite. Also I notice that she wants to go out because it's hot, but the beans themselves are cold.

In the first, of course, the threat is actual violence as the spoon transforms in a dreamlike way into a weapon.

What else I notice: The beans are always in cans. In 1 and 2, the cans are balanced on a log; in 3 the guys are sitting with their backs on a log. I have no idea what this means, if anything. It probably sounds too nitpicky. But I'm coming to believe that every word in the story, including even "the," might be more meaningful than it first appears.

[Front-Ranger]

Gives new meaning to the name "Jack and the beanstalk" doesn't it?  One reason why I think the symbolism evolves into something different in the movie is that Ang Lee is Asian. Thus the even more prominent use of the shirts and other clothing. And the beans. Beans are an Asian symbol of male virility. They don't have the connotation of poor people's food that they do in the U.S. Beans are eaten much more often than in the West and there are even sweets and celebratory dishes made from them.

[moremojo]

That's a pretty poor meal to be a high-time supper, beans and fried potatoes.

My sense of fun must be pretty impoverished, because I could definitely see that being a "high-time supper" for me. Simple, wholesome taste, and filling. I think Ennis is a man of simple tastes himself, and doesn't require much in the way of material happiness--though I think the implication in this one instance is that the other boy's presence made this event "a high-time supper" for our respective heroes.

[Jeff Wrangler]

My sense of fun must be pretty impoverished, because I could definitely see that being a "high-time supper" for me. Simple, wholesome taste, and filling. I think Ennis is a man of simple tastes himself, and doesn't require much in the way of material happiness--though I think the implication in this one instance is that the other boy's presence made this event "a high-time supper" for our respective heroes.

Or maybe it was the quart of whiskey on shares that did it. 

[moremojo]

Or maybe it was the quart of whiskey on shares that did it. 

It couldn't have hurt!

[Jeff Wrangler]

It couldn't have hurt!

Hell, give me a quart of whiskey on shares and a handsome young cowboy like Jack Twist, and I'll sure have a high-time, even without the supper! 

[moremojo]

“Peanuts are not nuts, they are beans.” In the film, Junior literally ‘spills the beans’ in the grocery store; her mother does the same (figuratively) on Thanksgiving.

That's a distinction and subtlety that I never would have guessed at. Good observation!

[Scott6373]

I've asked this before but don't think anyone answerred or heard the same thing.  The film...when Jack plays his harmonica for the first time...I think he's lying down near th fire.  Listen closely, and I swera he's playing (or attempting to play) "He Was a Friend of Mine"...the song WN sings over the credits...am I just nuts?

[Front-Ranger]

Could'a been Scott. Or almost anything else. It was a terribly dissonate song whatever it was. Maybe one of those old Pentacostal dirges that his mother sang. To me, it sounded a little bit like "Midnight Rider."

[nakymaton]

“Peanuts are not nuts, they are beans.” In the film, Junior literally ‘spills the beans’ in the grocery store; her mother does the same (figuratively) on Thanksgiving.

And it just struck me that coffee is made from beans.

"Texans don't drink coffee?"

"No more beans."

[Marge_Innavera]

My sense of fun must be pretty impoverished, because I could definitely see that being a "high-time supper" for me. Simple, wholesome taste, and filling. . . .the implication in this one instance is that the other boy's presence made this event "a high-time supper" for our respective heroes.

Ah, they should have had Fiorella's Jack Stack beans from Kansas City. Those are good enough that my mom has featured them at Christmas dinner more than once. 

[Front-Ranger]

Life, BBM, and BetterMost are all converging!! Here's proof: my account of the making of Bean Soup after meeting lauragigs:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=4302.msg88332#msg88332

And this weekend, my son was eating a bowl of it, and wondering why I suddenly rushed over and hugged him--it was because he was going "mmm-hmmm" just like Ennis with his can of beans in the movie!!

[Front-Ranger]

Are beans the symbol that is most different in the movie than in the book? I would have thought it would be something more visual, like pickup trucks or horses.

[serious crayons]

Here is my plan for today. It's Friday, so I'm going to take some time off this afternoon to devote to BBM research (which of course I never do during normal working hours!  ).

I'm going to watch the movie, then read the story. I will look for differences and report back here afterward.

[Front-Ranger]

This sounds like an excellent equinox ectivity. I'll be standin by (even tho sleepin like a horse on my feet) for yr report!!

[nakymaton]

Here is my plan for today. It's Friday, so I'm going to take some time off this afternoon to devote to BBM research (which of course I never do during normal working hours!  ).

I'm going to watch the movie, then read the story. I will look for differences and report back here afterward.

Ok, Katherine, we're waaaaaaaaaiting.........

(I tried to think of other things that were clearly different, but I haven't found time to watch the movie in ages, and when I come up with things, I realize they were mentioned in the story. The full moon... well, there's the reference to "paw the white out of the moon." The coffee pot? The reference to traveling around the coffee pot looking for the handle. The wind? The first paragraph of the short story talks about the wind, and it's an ever-present part of life in Wyoming. Elk? Mentioned in the last argument. I guess the spit string isn't in the short story, so maybe that counts as a purely visual symbol, though my urges to discuss it as something considered icky by conventional standards, but simultaneously beautiful by being ephemeral and by connecting Jack and Ennis, is probably a bit overdone and is driven more by hormones than rationality. )

[serious crayons]

Sorry. I did watch the movie but when it was time to read the story, I got sidetracked yesterday, first by my kids and then by social events here. Now, I'm just about to go read it.

But you had to go and bring up the spit string. See, it's that kind of thing that ruins my ability to concentrate on reading these days.

[nakymaton]

Sorry. I did watch the movie but when it was time to read the story, I got sidetracked yesterday, first by my kids and then by social events here. Now, I'm just about to go read it.

I'm always surprised about how hard it can be to read the story, especially after watching the movie. I mean, it's not a very long story. It's not the kind of time commitment that's necessary to read, say, The Lord of the Rings. It's possible to read it a dozen times in one day. But it's... it's a difficult emotional commitment, for me at least. I think I read the story maybe once during the six months after I watched the movie, and it felt so harsh, like it was under a light that was just too bright or something.

But you had to go and bring up the spit string. See, it's that kind of thing that ruins my ability to concentrate on reading these days.

See, it's been over a month since I've watched the movie, and I'm starting to obsess about things like spit strings. You'll see me getting progressively naughtier and naughtier on these threads, until suddenly I get all melancholy again, and you'll know that either a) I'm PMSing, or b) I've just watched the movie again.

[serious crayons]

But it's... it's a difficult emotional commitment, for me at least. I think I read the story maybe once during the six months after I watched the movie, and it felt so harsh, like it was under a light that was just too bright or something.

Well put. There's something soothing and comfortable about the movie -- even the sad parts, in a way. But the story isn't soothing or comfortable even in the happy parts.

I finally did read the story but have been procrastinating posting my findings here because I would like to say something profound and insightful and brilliant about what I learned. And ... well ... I'm still waiting for inspiration to strike.

I did notice some little things, interesting uses of symbols and foreshadowing. Like how the cold coffee, in the italicized intro part, is like Ennis' memories of their "old, cold time on the mountain": stale but rewarmed, poured into a stained cup so it might stoke the day. (And when he first sees Jack at the reunion, "a hot jolt scalded" him.) Or how, on their last trip, pessimistic Ennis keeps waiting for clouds to appear, which they finally do, but not until the third day (when it portentiously snows). It's as if he can't make the most of the good times because he's so busy expecting bad, while optimistic Jack notices the boneless blue so deep "that he might drown looking up," which of course he later does.

And the bear they spot on that final trip that runs away "with a lumpish gait that made it seem it was falling apart." I guess that makes me think of Ennis, falling apart from the stress of living his double life. Inspired by an excellent post about Jungian archetypes on imdb by Malina (who is at BetterMost, also), I dug up my own Jung book and found that a dream about encountering a dangerous animal supposedly indicates that the dreamer is confronting some alienated part of his real identity that has split off and needs to be reintegrated. That perfectly fits the bear scene in the movie and maybe sort of in the story.

Anyway, those are all kind of micro things, and I'd like to find something more macro. Maybe my mind just works better at the micro level.

[Front-Ranger]

Katherine, we're still waaaaaiiiiiitttting.....

[Ellemeno]

I seem to go through waves of having insight, and then having none, but I like the direction you're headed here, with each post I go, "Oh yeah, good observation."  And I love the community of each person adding a piece.  I love this kind of thread.

[serious crayons]

Here's a post I accidentally put in the screenplay-comparison thread, but it really belongs here.

Story Ennis is not only less homophobic than Movie Ennis, he's also more chatty. Movie Ennis is downright shy and taciturn, whereas Story Ennis talks about the same amount as Jack (another reason the story characters seem less distinguishable).

I always figure Movie Ennis is quiet not only because that's his inherent nature, but because of his childhood experiences. The Earl episode was just the tip of the iceberg. If Ennis could even consider the possibility that his dad, someone he seems to have respected, tortured someone to death for being gay, we can assume that his entire childhood was pretty terrifying and confusing and shame-filled and awful. And we can figure that the fear of revealing that one big part of his nature scared him into keeping ALL of himself hidden.

Judging by personality, talkative Story Ennis would appear not to have had that same kind of a repressed childhood. And that matches what seems to be the main reason for Story Ennis to reject Jack's offer: because of Earl, he knows that living with another man would be dangerous. It's more a pragmatic decision based on an isolated trauma, than the result of inner conflict built over years of fear. The larger implications of how the Earl incident might have affected his youth, though still there if you think about it, are not reflected in Ennis' personality.

BTW, I keep wanting to start a whole thread about Ennis and the Earl incident. So often I see people say Ennis behaved the way he did as if it's the result of that one horrifying experience. Whereas in fact that's just a story that lends itself to telling, both by Ennis and the film/story, but suggests much more than that. "For all I know, he done the job" is, for me, the key line.

[Front-Ranger]

Whenever I get too freaked out thinking about poor Rich and Earl, I remember what I saw when driving down south to Albuquerque this summer, where I met Impish. There was a diner by the side of a highway near Tucumcari, with a big sign that said "Steve and Earl's Diner." Next time I go that way I'm going to stop in and see if I can meet Steve and/or Earl. I'll bet they've had a sweet life, at least a sweet time making cinnamon rolls and such.

[Brown Eyes]

For what it's worth, I think the beans in the story are "happy symbols" (reminder of Brokeback, etc.) that get increasingly tainted by the complexities of Ennis's state of mind over his situation and ultimately by Jack's death (which in Ennis's mind was a murder... whether or not it actually was).  So, in a dream (as in the last description of the beans and spoon in Ennis's dream) they shape shift from being something wonderful to something scary.

I love the suggestion about the Asian symbolism of beans and virility.  I think that's very smart.  And, it's nice that it fits together with other symbols, like the shirts and the color blue, that can be traced back to Asian stories, traditions, etc.


OK.  So, I've had an idea for a new thread, but I think I'll just add the question here since my question comes down to a story vs. movie issue.

It seems like an enormous decision on the part of the filmmakers to change the order in which the film unfolds... to remove the aspect of the whole story existing as a flashback in Ennis's mind.  I think the opening italicized section of the short story is maybe the best part of the written version of the story (for me at least).  It makes the whole relationship seem extremely whistful and we're sure that we're learning about the story of Jack and Ennis through the filter of Ennis's memory and perceptions.  In the film by removing the suggestion that the whole film is really a flashback, the filmmakers remove this element of subjectivity.  But, my question is... Is there any suggestion that the whole film is a flashback/ memory understood through Ennis's point of view?  We all understand that Ennis is the protagonist... but this seems more important in terms of the narration of the story vs. the film.  It seems like in both the film and the story the most important moment that we get through Jack's perspective is the drowsy embrace flashback (plus of course the snippets that we see of his life in Texas, etc.).  But are we supposed to understand that most of the movie is perceived through Ennis's perspective? 

I hope this question is clear.  I fear that it is no.    But, I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on the subject.

[nakymaton]

Here's part of a post I wrote in the "getting hit hard by offhand revelations" thread... at one point, we were talking a little about POV in the story vs the movie.

***beginning of old post***

The movie, on the other hand, seems to be shown from the perspective of a sort of a voyeur.  Sometimes we watch Jack and Ennis from another person's viewpoint, like when we see the Happy Tussle through Aguirre's binoculars or when we see part of the reunion kiss from Alma's doorway. Sometimes we get a glimpse of what Jack or Ennis sees when they look at each other -- those views of Ennis in Jack's rearview mirror, for instance, or the times when they look across the wide spaces of the mountain at each other. And sometimes, we're completely on the outside, looking at everything -- and we even get shut out when the tent flap closes. But even though we're often on the outside looking at both of them, the view we see hasn't been edited to remove the emotional stuff, unlike the story as told from Ennis's viewpoint. So we see Ennis's emotional conflicts given (extraordinarily subtle, yay) expression on Heath's face, and we see Jack's tender looks during moments like TS2 and the hotel scene. I think that makes a difference in how the audience views the characters.

[Front-Ranger]

I beg to differ, Mel. There are several passages in the story that begin with "Ennis felt..." To wit... (pulls out incredibly dog-eared xeroxed copy of story mangled and maimed with multicoloured markups) "Ennis...thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon." and "He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off." So, it seems to me that I understand Ennis's feelings better from reading the story than I do from watching the movie. But that could perhaps just be because I am a word person more than I am an image person (I wish that was not the case, but it is.)

The difference between the story and the movie that really throws me is that Ennis sings in the story and enjoys it. I wish that had been transferred over to the movie. I would love to hear Heath singing the salty words to The Strawberry Roan in his beautiful baritone voice. And we know he can sing...he sang in "10 Things I Hate About You." 

[Brown Eyes]

BUMP!!!

[Front-Ranger]

Thank you for that bump, Amanda. You know I just have no resistance! I'm like LaShawn in Neiman Marcus. Today I'm wondering about the difference in the symbol of the harmonica in the movie and in the story. The harmonica is really mentioned only once in the story, but we know it has significance. Annie is very fond of wind instruments, she made a whole book called Accordion Crimes.

The harmonica is expanded on in the movie, it's used for comic relief. But, is that all it is? Is there more??

[Brown Eyes]

Well, I think the harmonica is an interesting topic to consider.  I think it functions in both the story and the film in at least one capacity.  In both, it reinforces Jack's wind symbol (as you bring up).  And, you're right that the harmonica is a touch of comic relief in the movie.  There really aren't a lot of moments of "comic relief" that I can think of in the story of the top of my head.  But, I think in the film the harmonica also becomes a source of great nostalgia for both Ennis and Jack.  In the prayer of thanks scene, Ennis brings up the harmonica (1) to lighten the mood (2) to avoid having to say what he's really feeling about Jack explicitly and (3) to bring up a subject that could be something for them to bond over.  I think the meaning of the harmonica shifts during the scene on horseback following the mixed-up sheep episode.  That sweet moment of gentle teasing and flirting (after they're already lovers) seems to bring the harmonica one step beyond just being comic relief.

Now, this gets me wondering.  Are there moments of comic relief in the story?  It doesn't really seem much like Proulx to worry about that kind of gesture.  But, comic relief can sometimes be important.  Actually... now that I think about it.  The one moment that always sort of makes me chuckle in the story is in the motel when Jack says he thinks that other people like them probably move to Denver.  I don't really know if that's meant to be funny... but I think it sort of is.  How would that line have sounded in the film?

[Front-Ranger]

Oh, I think there's quite a bit of humor in the story. One instance that really comes to mind is the saying "No instruction manual needed."

[brokebackjack]

Incompetent Jack trying to be a cowboy?

[serious crayons]

The harmonica is expanded on in the movie, it's used for comic relief. But, is that all it is? Is there more??

Well, there's the theory that the bent harmonica foreshadows Jack's death. In fact, I've heard it suggested that every time Jack even PLAYS the harmonica, it is about death. Which makes sense, given all the references connecting death and wind, or lack thereof: Jack's "drowning," Jenny's asthma, Uncle Harold's pneumonia.

[Front-Ranger]

So, if the bent harmonica foreshadows Jack's death, then what does the harmonica itself stand for? Jack's life?? His breath? His spirit??

[serious crayons]

So, if the bent harmonica foreshadows Jack's death, then what does the harmonica itself stand for? Jack's life?? His breath? His spirit??

Must be! And that's why Ennis is so charmed by it. And maybe it's why his harmonica playing would scare the "sheep" off ... his spirit would scare off the social conformists??    Just thinking out loud.

[Front-Ranger]

Incompetent Jack trying to be a cowboy?

For a guy who has Jack as his avatar (and moniker) you are awfully hard on Jack sometimes!!

[brokebackjack]

Am I???

I think I just accept him as he is. He's marginally skilled by his own creator's description; can't use an ax, spills water, explodes bean cans, took 12 years to tell LD to FO, smashes his harmonica, takes 20 years to yell at Ennis.

And I love his incompetent arse, just the way he is.

[Brown Eyes]

I think "incompetent" is a somewhat-harsh word to describe something that I think is really there in Jack...  It reminds me of what Jake says in one of the interviews in the bonus features on the DVD, where he interprets Jack as "trying" all the time.  I think this is very perceptive... I think Jack is desperately trying to be a model cowboy and really is striving to do his best even in things he's not so good at.  We see Jack make mistakes (like missing the coyote and spilling the beans, etc.), but I don't really think these "flaws" indicated "incompetence" (although Old Man Twist probably saw it that way)... I think these things are expressive of Jack's personality in some way.  Perhaps missing the coyote is a sign that Jack is too high-spirited or impatient to do something like shoot an animal.  Or maybe it means it's not really "in" Jack to kill or hurt something (even an animal) very easily.  OR maybe it's foreshadowing about his death (supposing that he was murdered)... Jack is unsuccessful here at dealing with a predator (perhaps that can be stretched to his inability to escape predators in the murder scenario).  Anyway, I also think we are shown moments when Jack is actually very successful and "competent".  He's the one with more herding experience, so he's the one who leads the flock.  We see him win a rodeo.  Lureen tells us that Jack is a good combine salesman.  He's also good at being a caring father (worrying about Bobby's tutor, etc.). And, we see how good he is at drawing Ennis out and bringing genuine happiness to Ennis, etc.

LOL, I went searching for a pre-existing thread about Proulx's use of symbolism in her writing (still thinking a lot about the "is a cigar just a cigar" topic).  And, I landed on this one.

The first post in this tread brings up the part of the BBM story that's been on my mind all day regarding Proulx and a really blatant and complicated deployment of a symbol in her language.  Right at the very end of BBM she describes how a spoon can also come to be seen as a tire iron.

"...the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well, in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of cosmic obscenity.  The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron."

I feel like this description is like a key to understanding Proulx's careful use of symbols and is like a key into understanding (perhaps) other and more nuanced symbols in her writing.  I feel like this is equivalent to the moment in the film when Aguirre says "look what the wind blew in", which acts like a key to becoming aware of this and other symbols.

[Sandy]

I am so incredibly interested in everyone’s comments on the symbolism in the movie.  I wholeheartedly agree that this is a story with so many layers and I’m enjoying reading everyone’s comments and thinking through those symbols that I missed (to be fair, that would be most of them!).

I just have a brief comment relating to the recent discussion of Jack’s incompetence.  My take on this is that, in every relationship, each partner has their own skills, i.e. one partner may be a more skilled cook whereas the physically stronger partner may take the garbage outside.  Here, we have Ennis shooting the elk (because of Jack’s “dumbass missing!”) and yet Jack brings his usual enthusiasm to make Ennis laugh with his “yee haw!” comment.  They quickly learned to live with one another and we can only assume that this easy comfort would have grown had it had the chance.

[Front-Ranger]

To join in the discussion about Jack and incompetence, I suggest you go here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,8761.0.html

Thanks for unburying this thread, Amanda, dear friend!! I am having some high-time entertainment with AP and symbolism lately by reading the other stories in the collection that concludes with Brokeback Mountain. For one thing, 'member we wondered why spurs only appear a couple of times in the story? Well, there is an entire story about a pair of magical spurs in Close Range (and it's closely tied with BBM, since the town of Signnal appears in both). Though I'm still up in the air about the exact meaning of them. You're right that that's the way it should be: the meaning ultimately is up to the individual reader.

[Brown Eyes]

I just have a brief comment relating to the recent discussion of Jack’s incompetence.  My take on this is that, in every relationship, each partner has their own skills, i.e. one partner may be a more skilled cook whereas the physically stronger partner may take the garbage outside.  Here, we have Ennis shooting the elk (because of Jack’s “dumbass missing!”) and yet Jack brings his usual enthusiasm to make Ennis laugh with his “yee haw!” comment.  They quickly learned to live with one another and we can only assume that this easy comfort would have grown had it had the chance.

Hi Sandy,

I definitely agree with this too.

[brokebackjack]

atz, ok ok lololol!

I will say marginally skilled instead, like his creator did. [But there is no way around her other description>>> of Ennis as '...the self-hating Ennis Del Mar.']
This is becoming a really good discussion here, and I  will take discussion of  Jack's competence to the relevant thread....