Leviticus

[Wayne]

OK children open your Bibles to Leviticus 18:22. What does it say? here is what Leviticus 18:22 says:

ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה תועבה הוא׃

[Lynne]

My Hebrew translation was not intelligible.

I went here

http://bible.cc/leviticus/18-22.htm

and I don't see any translation that speaks Truth to me.  I will check context before and after, but I have long been of the opinion that these are sociological statements and not of Divine origin, as is my opinion of most of the Bible, for that matter.

[Wayne]

Now here is what those words mean in English:
 
ואת         and with
־זכר         a man
לא           do not
תשכב      lie down
משכבי      wife
אשה         bed
תועבה      idolatry
הוא           he or it

[Wayne]

Hey Lynnie - yeah, bible.cc is a very good resource. (it was my favorite until I found the Blue Letter Bible). The thing is, those translations are going to say whatever the translators wanted them to say. In this case, they are blatantly dishonest.

Just read the words. Check each one, and see what it means. Here is the page at bible.cc where you can see what it actually says:

http://biblos.com/leviticus/18-22.htm

[Wayne]

Again, ignore the so-called translation. It is not a translation of these words. It is just something that somebody wanted to say, and they put it there, right there in the King James, as well as the Latin and everywhere else. But what they wrote is simply not what it says.

[Wayne]

OK so the "idolatry it" part means "it is idolatry." that is the more specific meaning of "it is an abomination" that is usually used. Fine, it strikes me as a throwaway phrase, like eww. But whatever, maybe there is something to be learned from it later. Anyway, we've got that part down.

[Lynne]

Yes.  It has been written and re-written too many times after the death of Christ by people with their own agendas to put much credence anywhere.

I was recently on a quest to figure out the exact wording of the commandment

Thou shalt not kill

vs

Thou shalt not murder

I'd have to find the link, but I believe I found that 'kill' is the most historical word, while more recent translations use 'murder'.  And there's a world of difference in that one little word.

[Wayne]

The more interesting part is still there:

And with a man do not lie down wife bed

wife-bed is the way Hebrew expresses "wife's bed"

Do not lie down with a man in the wife's bed

[Wayne]

What I'm saying is, the dogma is that the Hebrew text is the "real" text. Nothing else matters. The KJV, Latin Vulgate, all the translations and re-writings are just tools, shortcuts, somebody's suggestion. And the original text says:

Do not lie down with a man in the wife's bed.

This is the Leviticus phrase.

[Wayne]

Plain and simple, it does not say "do not lie with a man as you lie with a woman." Those words are not there. No matter how many translators claim that that's what it says, it still does not say that.

[Lynne]

You are right.  I think it's saying "Change the sheets"

 

[Wayne]

There are only a very few verses that at face value appear to condemn the Gays. This is the worst of them, and it's a plain and simple lie on the part of the translators.

The problem that they faced was that the text said "Do not lie with a man in the wife's bed." That text itself reveals something about the writers of Leviticus that the translators did not want us to know: men had sex with men elsewhere besides the wife's bed, and God did not have a problem with it.

This was unacceptable to the translators, or more precisely to the culture they were working in. (I wouldn't be surprised if the translators themselves were homosexuals, tormented by their society.)

So they changed it to meet the demands of the culture and the people paying for the translation. The routine of mis-translating this particular verse was propagated across translations, because everybody hates a queer.

As a result, what we see in the English, Latin, and other translations of Leviticus is a straight-up lie.

[Wayne]

"Change the sheets"

   Exactly! Consider that in the polygamous society where this was written - and don't forget the concubines! - the bed belonged to the wife. The husband came to whichever wife or concubine he happened to choose, but it was her bed. It belonged to her, not to the two of them together.

This verse instructs the Hebrews not to have sex with a man in the wife's bed because that was "the kind of thing the idolators do." The idolators of course being the usual despised "other" - you can pick any group that somebody might choose to hate.

Every bit as spiritual and god-breathed as "Eww, don't do that, that's like something poor people would do."

[delalluvia]

That's the Hebrew Bible, though, what does the Christian bible say?

[Wayne]

Now, don't get me wrong children. If that verse did say what they claim, it would just be crap.

But we are constantly attacked with this verse, and for me it's interesting to see that the God being described here is actually just fine with men having sex together.

If the people who hate us knew what it actually said, would they let go of their hate?

No. They would throw away their Bibles.

[Wayne]

That's the Hebrew Bible, though, what does the Christian bible say?

Do you mean what does the Christian version of Leviticus say versus what the Hebrew version says?

If that's what you're asking, then the Hebrew text of Leviticus is the same as the Leviticus of the Christian Bible. There is no difference.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Now here is what those words mean in English:
 
ואת         and with
־זכר         a man
לא           do not
תשכב      lie down
משכבי      wife
אשה         bed
תועבה      idolatry
הוא           he or it

God speaks like Yoda? Who knew?

[Wayne]

God speaks like Yoda? Who knew?

 

[delalluvia]

Do you mean what does the Christian version of Leviticus say versus what the Hebrew version says?

If that's what you're asking, then the Hebrew text of Leviticus is the same as the Leviticus of the Christian Bible. There is no difference.

No, that's not what I meant.

While a great many use the Hebrew Bible condemnations, there are still others in the Christian "New Testament".  The passages in Romans I I Corinthians and I Timothy talk about and condemn homosexuality.