Author Topic: Alma and Monroe  (Read 3637 times)

Offline chowhound

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Alma and Monroe
« on: October 18, 2011, 05:42:34 pm »
The other day a friend asked me about Alma and Monroe. She was curious about when their relationship changed from employer/employee to some thing much more personal. She was also curious about how long the "personal" relationship might have been going on and whether it predated Alma's divorce. Was there even an understanding between the two of them, she wondered, so that if she were to divorce Ennis, then he, Monroe, would be happy to marry her shortly afterwards?

There's precious little information in the short story on this though the bouncy way in which the separation and divorce is told - "...and when Alma Jr. was nine and Francine seven she [Alma] said, what am I doin hangin around him, divorced Ennis and married the grocer" - always suggests to me a very upbeat Alma at this point in the story.

An earlier version of the script, however, provides a clue for a possible back story for Alma and Monroe. The scene occurs after Alma has witnessed the reunion kiss but quite how long after is unclear:

INT; GROCERY STORE; WYOMING; EARLY EVENING.

ALMA, a little older and a little less skinny, is clerking at the grocery store. As she rings up groceries, we see MONROE, now a manager, wearing a cheap tie, flirting, smiling at her. ALMA smiles back.

The customer leaves. ALMA and MONROE are alone. MONROE opens a box of Junior Mints and eats one.

                                                                 ALMA
                                         What are you smilin' 'bout?

                                                                 MONROE
                                                  (chewing, smiles even wider)
                                         Nothin'.

                                                                 ALMA
                                         Gotta be somethin'

                                                                 MONROE
                                         Just happy, I guess.

MONROE throws a Junior Mint at Alma.

                                                                 ALMA
                                                            (laughing)
                                          Stop that!

Just then, Ennis walks into the store. MONROE and ALMA immediately stop their flirting.

This, of course, doesn't make it into the final cut but nevertheless that doesn't prevent us from wondering if her relationship with Monroe was one of the reasons for Alma seeking a divorce from Ennis.

Another interrelated reason for her divorce decision dates, I believe, from the time when she became convinced that her husband and Jack were deeply involved in an affair. We know, of course, that she has witnessed the reunion kiss but it appears that it has left her with puzzlement and doubts rather than any certainty. If she was certain, why would she bother tying that note to the end of Ennis's line? It was only when she can definitely prove that no fishing had taken place on that trip even though Ennis claimed that they had "caught a bunch a browns and ate them up" that she positively knows about his relationship with "Jack Nasty".

The question is - when did this scene occur? It's impossible to say with certainty but I always like to think it's the scene when Ennis is just leaving and Alma very pointedly reminds him that he's about to leave his creel case behind.

If I'm right,  then this scene takes place in 1972 and the divorce occurs three years later in 1975. That would be about the right amount of time for Alma to get everything worked out. She may well be set on divorce but she would also need something or someone to fall back on for support. She would no doubt get child support but even so that would leave her as a single mother trying to raise two smallish children. That's why I've always suspected that Monroe is waiting in the wings when Alma initiates divorce proceedings. We don't know how long a gap there is between Alma's divorce from Ennis and her marriage to Monroe but it can't have been that long as she is already six months pregnant with his child at the Thanksgiving dinner two year later in 1977.  
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 10:35:40 pm by chowhound »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Alma and Monroe
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 01:10:34 am »
An earlier version of the script, however, provides a clue for a possible back story for Alma and Monroe. The scene occurs after Alma has witnessed the reunion kiss but quite how long after is unclear:

INT; GROCERY STORE; WYOMING; EARLY EVENING.

ALMA, a little older and a little less skinny, is clerking at the grocery store. As she rings up groceries, we see MONROE, now a manager, wearing a cheap tie, flirting, smiling at her. ALMA smiles back.

The customer leaves. ALMA and MONROE are alone. MONROE opens a box of Junior Mints and eats one.

                                                                 ALMA
                                         What are you smilin' 'bout?

                                                                 MONROE
                                                  (chewing, smiles even wider)
                                         Nothin'.

                                                                 ALMA
                                         Gotta be somethin'

                                                                 MONROE
                                         Just happy, I guess.

MONROE throws a Junior Mint at Alma.

                                                                 ALMA
                                                            (laughing)
                                          Stop that!

Just then, Ennis walks into the store. MONROE and ALMA immediately stop their flirting.

This, of course, doesn't make it into the final cut but nevertheless that doesn't prevent us from wondering if her relationship with Monroe was one of the reasons for Alma seeking a divorce from Ennis.




I think this scene, or rather the fact that it's not in the movie, is a perfect example of Ang Lee's restrained approach to the film. Instead of this very clear version, we have practically the same, but in a much more discreet version: when Ennis drops the girls off with Alma at the store. Alma junior knocks over the jars, then watch Monroe's reaction: he's sweet, gentle and courteous. Not a hint of anger at Alma, he even helps.
Without him (or them) actually openly flirting, we know right then that Monroe is sweet on Alma. Perfect choice by Lee, if you ask me.



Quote
The other day a friend asked me about Alma and Monroe. She was curious about when their relationship changed from employer/employee to some thing much more personal. She was also curious about how long the "personal" relationship might have been going on and whether it predated Alma's divorce. Was there even an understanding between the two of them, she wondered, so that if she were to divorce Ennis, then he, Monroe, would be happy to marry her shortly afterwards?

There's precious little information in the short story on this though the bouncy way in which the separation and divorce is told - "...and when Alma Jr. was nine and Francine seven she [Alma] said, what am I doin hangin around him, divorced Ennis and married the grocer" - always suggests to me a very upbeat Alma at this point in the story.

[...]

Another interrelated reason for her divorce decision dates, I believe, from the time when she became convinced that her husband and Jack were deeply involved in an affair. We know, of course, that she has witnessed the reunion kiss but it appears that it has left her with puzzlement and doubts rather than any certainty. If she was certain, why would she bother tying that note to the end of Ennis's line? It was only when she can definitely prove that no fishing had taken place on that trip even though Ennis claimed that they had "caught a bunch a browns and ate them up" that she positively knows about his relationship with "Jack Nasty".

The question is - when did this scene occur? It's impossible to say with certainty but I always like to think it's the scene when Ennis is just leaving and Alma very pointedly reminds him that he's about to leave his creel case behind.

If I'm right,  then this scene takes place in 1972 and the divorce occurs three years later in 1975. That would be about the right amount of time for Alma to get everything worked out. She may well be set on divorce but she would also need something or someone to fall back on for support. She would no doubt get child support but even so that would leave her as a single mother trying to raise two smallish children. That's why I've always suspected that Monroe is waiting in the wings when Alma initiates divorce proceedings. We don't know how long a gap there is between Alma's divorce from Ennis and her marriage to Monroe but it can't have been that long as she is already six months pregnant with his child at the Thanksgiving dinner two year later in 1977.   



So much in there...
I agree it's clear that Alma already has Monroe to fall back on when she divorces Ennis. But it's not clear how far their relationship went before the divorce. Maybe she only knows that Monroe will be there for her and her daughters (that he's interested and willing to marry her), maybe it went further. In the movie, there's the swing-set/supper's on the stove scene, where she yells "I promised to take the extra shift" at Ennis. I think this is a hint, it's the movie's correspondent to Proulx's line.
In the story, we have the line you already quoted ...and married the Riverton grocer. Knowing Proulx's gritty outlook on life, and on people, I think the lapidar, dry way this information is presented indicates that there was something going on between Alma and Bill/Monroe by the time she ends her marriage to Ennis. I also think both Proulx and Lee only indicate, but leave it open due to the fact thart it's not really important for the core of the story.
Of course, inquiring Brokie minds want to know nonetheless.... :).



Marge_Innavera

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Re: Alma and Monroe
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 10:03:22 am »
Good point about Ang Lee choosing the more subtle version in the grocery scene.  But I'd still like to have seen that earlier one in a 'deleted scene' format.  One thing it would have going for it is the irony of Ennis later trying to  hide his affair with Jack from Alma while she has something going on too, whether or not it's an actual affair.

My impression in viewing the movie was that Alma and Monroe were both from Riverton, and had known each other for a long time.  Maybe he had an ongoing crush on her in high school, but was the class nerd.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Alma and Monroe
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 10:09:55 am »
We know, of course, that she has witnessed the reunion kiss but it appears that it has left her with puzzlement and doubts rather than any certainty. If she was certain, why would she bother tying that note to the end of Ennis's line? It was only when she can definitely prove that no fishing had taken place on that trip even though Ennis claimed that they had "caught a bunch a browns and ate them up" that she positively knows about his relationship with "Jack Nasty".

I've wondered about that too, and haven't seen much discussion about it.  It might be that this never happened -- after all, this all occurs when homosexuality was one of the taboo subjects, and she might not have been up to telling Ennis outright that she saw him and Jack kissing. But under the circumstances, I'm not sure it's believable that she could have thought that up on the spur of the moment.

Quote
If I'm right,  then this scene takes place in 1972 and the divorce occurs three years later in 1975. That would be about the right amount of time for Alma to get everything worked out. She may well be set on divorce but she would also need something or someone to fall back on for support. She would no doubt get child support but even so that would leave her as a single mother trying to raise two smallish children. That's why I've always suspected that Monroe is waiting in the wings when Alma initiates divorce proceedings.

That's why I've always thought Monroe was in the story mainly as a plot device; i.e., to help Alma land on her feet financially.  Even if Ennis keeps up with the child support payments, that might not be enough, especially since the divorce occurs in 1975 and prices started to rise sharply about that time.  If she's struggling after the divorce and the two girls have to pitch in by working after school to make ends meet, it's a little more difficult to sympathize with Ennis' situation.  Her remarriage simply takes that out of the equation.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Alma and Monroe
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 11:54:55 am »
We know, of course, that she has witnessed the reunion kiss but it appears that it has left her with puzzlement and doubts rather than any certainty. If she was certain, why would she bother tying that note to the end of Ennis's line? It was only when she can definitely prove that no fishing had taken place on that trip even though Ennis claimed that they had "caught a bunch a browns and ate them up" that she positively knows about his relationship with "Jack Nasty".

The question is - when did this scene occur? It's impossible to say with certainty but I always like to think it's the scene when Ennis is just leaving and Alma very pointedly reminds him that he's about to leave his creel case behind.

Hmm. I'm glad you said that. I'd never made the creel connection between the two scenes. I suppose this is possible--within the context of the film perhaps it's even wisest to assume it happened like that--but I'm still kind of uncomfortable with the implication that Alma has essentially set out to "trap" Ennis--tying the note to the fishing line and then pointedly reminding him not to forget his creel. Alma has never struck me as being that, well, devious--or clever enough to set a trap.

I admit it's been a long while now since I last watched the movie, but my memory of the tone of Alma's voice when she reminds Ennis not to forget his creel suggests to me that she's already figured out that fishing isn't really the point of the fishing trips. Is it possible that the creel reminder scene actually takes place after Alma has found out that the line has not touched water in it's life? My memory is that to me Alma just doesn't look or sound like someone who has a really strong reason to make sure Ennis doesn't forget his creel. My impression has always been more of exasperation or, possibly, disgust.

My impression in viewing the movie was that Alma and Monroe were both from Riverton, and had known each other for a long time.  Maybe he had an ongoing crush on her in high school, but was the class nerd.

Poor Monroe. He just don't get no respect.  ;D

(But I'll bet you're right about that. ...  ;D )
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