Author Topic: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"  (Read 20173 times)

Offline brianr

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Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« on: September 28, 2013, 11:47:21 pm »
I have just returned from watching this movie and have very confused feelings.
It was hardly discussed in the movie thread. Apparently it was only on TV in the USA because it was considered "too gay" As someone said on IMDB "This is after Brokeback??"
My 60 + movie group goes to a movie on the 2nd Sunday of the month. I am glad I did not see it with them. However the audience was similar - Elderly ladies and one or 2 older men like me (except they were accompanied by ladies and I was alone).

I never liked Liberace much, thankfully my music tastes are better and he made me squirm as he was so much a queen.
Towards the end of the movie I was loathing him completely and although I felt a bit sorry for him dying of AIDS (I did not know that before) I still think he was completely repugnant and not a person I would like my friends to see as typically gay.

My sister told me today that her best friend wanted to see the movie but it has apparently finished screening in Australia. Thank God. Her friend is 79. like my sister but, unlike my sister who has watched her young brother deal with being gay, is completely homophobic and I watch what I say in her presence.
This movie would hardly improve her views.

While my life has been no stranger to back room bars I was a little embarrassed at them being depicted in front of that audience. However in his late 50's Liberace picked up a (16 - 18 it seems to vary) boy, Scott, from a broken home, lavishes him with gifts and sex and even arranges for him to have a completely unnecessary facelift then throws him over when a younger trick meets his eye. And apparently there were several such victims, only Scott has written about it.

Much is made of the fact that Scott is now a drug addict and has been in jail. Can anyone be surprised? 

Both Matt Damon and Michael Douglas give good performances so that made seeing the movie worthwhile, although I could have wished the face surgery was not depicted in such detail.  However I felt sick that straight people my age should be viewing such a seedy side of gay life.

Offline Monika

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 04:07:31 pm »
I have just returned from watching this movie and have very confused feelings.
It was hardly discussed in the movie thread. Apparently it was only on TV in the USA because it was considered "too gay" As someone said on IMDB "This is after Brokeback??"
My 60 + movie group goes to a movie on the 2nd Sunday of the month. I am glad I did not see it with them. However the audience was similar - Elderly ladies and one or 2 older men like me (except they were accompanied by ladies and I was alone).

I never liked Liberace much, thankfully my music tastes are better and he made me squirm as he was so much a queen.
Towards the end of the movie I was loathing him completely and although I felt a bit sorry for him dying of AIDS (I did not know that before) I still think he was completely repugnant and not a person I would like my friends to see as typically gay.

My sister told me today that her best friend wanted to see the movie but it has apparently finished screening in Australia. Thank God. Her friend is 79. like my sister but, unlike my sister who has watched her young brother deal with being gay, is completely homophobic and I watch what I say in her presence.
This movie would hardly improve her views.

While my life has been no stranger to back room bars I was a little embarrassed at them being depicted in front of that audience. However in his late 50's Liberace picked up a (16 - 18 it seems to vary) boy, Scott, from a broken home, lavishes him with gifts and sex and even arranges for him to have a completely unnecessary facelift then throws him over when a younger trick meets his eye. And apparently there were several such victims, only Scott has written about it.

Much is made of the fact that Scott is now a drug addict and has been in jail. Can anyone be surprised? 

Both Matt Damon and Michael Douglas give good performances so that made seeing the movie worthwhile, although I could have wished the face surgery was not depicted in such detail.  However I felt sick that straight people my age should be viewing such a seedy side of gay life.

Well, at least you can take comfort in the fact that there are plenty of movies out there depicting the seedy life of heterosexuals as well.

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 04:39:07 pm »
Well, at least you can take comfort in the fact that there are plenty of movies out there depicting the seedy life of heterosexuals as well.
Yes but unfortunately people do not always see that. My sister's girlfriend is so bitter about gay men because her other best friend was married to a gay man. The eventual happened and they divorced leaving her to bring up a daughter in poverty while he was a successful medical practitioner. Of course this all happened long ago as they are all now in their late 70's and was before the laws were changed which would now make him pay support.
Now we know that sort of thing happens all the time with heterosexuals but for my sister's friend it damns all gay men.

Offline Sophia

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 05:13:41 pm »
I have just returned from watching this movie and have very confused feelings.
It was hardly discussed in the movie thread. Apparently it was only on TV in the USA because it was considered "too gay" As someone said on IMDB "This is after Brokeback??"
My 60 + movie group goes to a movie on the 2nd Sunday of the month. I am glad I did not see it with them. However the audience was similar - Elderly ladies and one or 2 older men like me (except they were accompanied by ladies and I was alone).

I never liked Liberace much, thankfully my music tastes are better and he made me squirm as he was so much a queen.
Towards the end of the movie I was loathing him completely and although I felt a bit sorry for him dying of AIDS (I did not know that before) I still think he was completely repugnant and not a person I would like my friends to see as typically gay.

My sister told me today that her best friend wanted to see the movie but it has apparently finished screening in Australia. Thank God. Her friend is 79. like my sister but, unlike my sister who has watched her young brother deal with being gay, is completely homophobic and I watch what I say in her presence.
This movie would hardly improve her views.

While my life has been no stranger to back room bars I was a little embarrassed at them being depicted in front of that audience. However in his late 50's Liberace picked up a (16 - 18 it seems to vary) boy, Scott, from a broken home, lavishes him with gifts and sex and even arranges for him to have a completely unnecessary facelift then throws him over when a younger trick meets his eye. And apparently there were several such victims, only Scott has written about it.

Much is made of the fact that Scott is now a drug addict and has been in jail. Can anyone be surprised? 

Both Matt Damon and Michael Douglas give good performances so that made seeing the movie worthwhile, although I could have wished the face surgery was not depicted in such detail.  However I felt sick that straight people my age should be viewing such a seedy side of gay life.


I saw Liberace "behind the candelabra" a few weeks ago as well, and I must say it made me confused too...a lot of wondering questions were raist in my head..... I think I can answer one of your questions thou...why Scott is the only one, who have written about it, according to Scott, he is the only one alive. He says, he knows about 4 boys who died from AIDS after having relationship with Liberace. (one of the boys who died, is portraited in the movie, as Liberace new love interest.)

   

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 05:28:49 pm »
I think I can answer one of your questions thou...why Scott is the only one, who have written about it, according to Scott, he is the only one alive. He says, he knows about 4 boys who died from AIDS after having relationship with Liberace. (one of the boys who died, is portraited in the movie, as Liberace new love interest.)
Thanks, that explains a lot. I tend to forget now, after over 20 years, that so many died at that time. It was such a horrible time that one tends to suppress the memories.

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 12:07:01 pm »
It was great to see this get so many awards at the SAG ceremony last week.  :laugh:
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Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"--PUT OUT THE CANDLES!
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 10:07:15 am »
I finally saw Behind the Candelabra a few nights ago.  I was not confused in the least--I was appalled.  As a gay man I was greatly offended that this cartoonish effort was made in the first place, and then was celebrated as being of any worth at all.

Any gay man seeing this film without warning would be repelled.  I suppose with some warning it could be watched as a kind of over-the-top parody that could be fun--but under the fun would be the suspicion that this production actually thought it was saying something serious about gay life.

At its heart it was the story of a crazy, stereotypically gay, older sugar daddy (virtually a drag queen in pants), and his  twinkie boyfriend who was out for everything he could get out of the old man.  Douglas and Dillon could not possibly have been a worse case of casting.  No, please.  It was ghastly and embarrassing to watch.  I can certainly understand why LGBTs did not want their families and friends to see it.  BTC is exactly the kind of anti-gay propaganda that comes from  time long ago, and still drives me berserk.

Scott Thompson was the only one alive to write the book--and profit from the movie royalties.  That he was shamelessly using Liberace all along, and was a totally self-seeking bastard seems to have gotten lost along the way.  Liberace sure had bad taste in men.  He is the one to pity, not the sleazy hangers-on who took advantage of him.

And why do some of you straight people insist on calling the younger partners in gay relationships "boys?"  Thompson was not a boy, he was a young man.  To characterize them as "young boys" is to suggest paedophilia, and is homophobic.  Stop it.  Do you describe 17 and 18 year old females as "young girls?"  No.  And feminists I know would be very angry if you did.

That this film would win any awards--at SAG or any place else--says nothing about the film, but lots about the organizations presenting the awards,
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 10:38:19 am »
Do you remember Liberace?
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 11:14:38 am »
LOL @ Truman!

X-man, Liberace was very flamboyant and animated.  I didn't see the show, but I'm sure they portrayed him correctly.


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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 11:29:09 am »
My friend Offline Chuck loved the show and as an accomplished pianist, loved Liberace. Apparently he was really talented as a pianist. I barely remember him myself but enough to know that the costumes, candelabra and mannerisms were really there.
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Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 11:34:16 am »
I very well remember Liberace.  Remember, I'm older than you guys.

I know he was very flamboyant and animated.  At the time it turned me off, but I have lightened up a lot since getting older, and now think he had the right to be as nellie and campy as he wanted to be.  I'm not criticizing Liberace at all.  Go girl!  Take it as far as you want to!

I am criticizing Douglas for his portrayal of the man.  (Peter Garber did a much better job in the other Liberace movie.)  And my pet hate is Matt Dillon.  When I first saw him in a film, I thought "nice eye-candy."  Then he had to ruin it by talking.  Wooden, uninteresting, boring--that boy-next-door look will take you only so far----definitely not into Liberace's mansion.
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 11:40:44 am »
Well, you know it is a movie, and they are actors. They did the best they could probably. I am amazed that the movie would ever be made, or more to the point I have lived to see the day it would be made.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 12:12:45 pm »
I very well remember Liberace.  Remember, I'm older than you guys.

I know he was very flamboyant and animated.  At the time it turned me off, but I have lightened up a lot since getting older, and now think he had the right to be as nellie and campy as he wanted to be.  I'm not criticizing Liberace at all.  Go girl!  Take it as far as you want to!

And yet you have a problem that a movie portrayed him as exactly that?

I finally saw Behind the Candelabra a few nights ago.  I was not confused in the least--I was appalled.  As a gay man I was greatly offended that this cartoonish effort was made in the first place, and then was celebrated as being of any worth at all.

Any gay man seeing this film without warning would be repelled.

Really, don't you think you ought to speak for yourself? You have every right to be appalled and disgusted by it, but you aren't "any gay man," you're one gay man.

Quote
At its heart it was the story of a crazy, stereotypically gay, older sugar daddy (virtually a drag queen in pants), and his  twinkie boyfriend who was out for everything he could get out of the old man.

Well, yeah. ... 

Quote
Douglas and Dillon could not possibly have been a worse case of casting.

It wasn't Matt Dillon, it was Matt Damon.

Quote
I am criticizing Douglas for his portrayal of the man.  (Peter Garber did a much better job in the other Liberace movie.)

If you're referring to Liberace: Behind the Music (1988), that was Victor Garber (who is gay, btw, and quite a good actor in whatever role he takes on).

Quote
Scott Thompson was the only one alive to write the book--and profit from the movie royalties.  That he was shamelessly using Liberace all along, and was a totally self-seeking bastard seems to have gotten lost along the way.  Liberace sure had bad taste in men.  He is the one to pity, not the sleazy hangers-on who took advantage of him.

Scott Thorson. ...

Quote
And why do some of you straight people insist on calling the younger partners in gay relationships "boys?"

Maybe because some of us gay men do.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 12:14:22 pm »
My friend Offline Chuck loved the show and as an accomplished pianist, loved Liberace. Apparently he was really talented as a pianist. I barely remember him myself but enough to know that the costumes, candelabra and mannerisms were really there.

I've offered (threatened?  ;D) to buy OCD a candelabra for that baby grand of his. ...
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Offline southendmd

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 12:41:09 pm »
I didn't care much for the film, mostly because I thought the title should have used the single "candelabrum".   :-X

I don't get upset at the subject matter:  an aging celebrity and his loneliness, self deception; hooking up with young men and using each other.  How many older straight celebrities hook up with lots of young women?

Surely, by his older years, he was a nelly caricature.  It's hard to imagine how incredibly popular he was decades earlier.  I was reminded of this old clip from the TV show "What's My Line" where Liberace was the mystery celebrity guest.  Listen to the audience's reaction when he just walks on stage.  And the first panelist's question/assumption that he must be an incredibly hot starlet to get that kind of response from the audience!



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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2014, 01:01:26 pm »
It's hard to imagine how incredibly popular he was decades earlier.

The man certainly was a talented showman, you have to give him that. I have vague memories of his TV show from when I was a child.
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Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2014, 02:08:03 pm »
And yet you have a problem that a movie portrayed him as exactly that?

Really, don't you think you ought to speak for yourself? You have every right to be appalled and disgusted by it, but you aren't "any gay man," you're one gay man.

Well, yeah. ... 

It wasn't Matt Dillon, it was Matt Damon.

If you're referring to Liberace: Behind the Music (1988), that was Victor Garber (who is gay, btw, and quite a good actor in whatever role he takes on).

Scott Thorson. ...

Maybe because some of us gay men do.

Hey JW, lighten up.  I was reacting to a film I didn't like.  I got some facts wrong--I get that.  I should have checked  them out before I wrote.  I didn't realize it was that serious.
You say I was reacting to Liberace's being "flamboyant and animated" (I read this as nellie and campy.)  I was not, as I explained.  It was the way Douglas did it that offended me.  I thought I made that clear. 
Damon/Dillon--he's still an uninteresting, wooden actor and a very conventional person who is totally unbelievable as the twinkie boyfriend.
You are right that I should not presume to speak for other gay men.  I DID check with other gay male friends of mine, and their reactions to the film were much like mine.
As far as calling young men "boys," I am old enough to be in a better position than most to call younger men "boys."  But I will not do so because it is discounting and demeaning.  Consider how women react to being called "girls" by men: they freak.  And I think you missed my point about it summoning up paedophilia.  Notice in general straight rhetoric (newspapers and conversation) about men+ young men, the latter will very often be described as "young boys" when they are 18 or 19.  If that is a "young boy" then what is a 9-year-old--an infant?  There is only one place this misuse of language comes from: the intent to say that such relationships are improper and perverted.  This is homophobia in my book, however disguised.
OK, JW, you have had your run at me for past problems.  I have been waiting for this.  I have no animosity towards you, and never did.  Now, let's put it to bed and start over.  Chill out; I have.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2014, 03:25:12 pm »
What about giving Liberace credit for his talent and skill as a pianist? At least at the beginning, that was the source of his popularity, IMHO. That was back in the days when people listened to piano on the radio or went to concerts. Our friend Offline Chuck treasures the piano rolls of his that he has collected (for player piano).
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Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2014, 03:39:45 pm »
In some gay subsets and without being too explicit the term 'boy' is used more for role rather than age. I have  been called 'boy' in the last year or so even though I will be 70 next week.
The movie is historical and this must temper my complete disgust with Liberace, his being in the closet and suing anyone who even hinted he was gay and his treatment of the 'young men' he picked up. It just shows how far gay rights and pride have progressed in my lifetime.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2014, 03:52:45 pm »
Hey JW, lighten up.  I was reacting to a film I didn't like.  I got some facts wrong--I get that.  I should have checked  them out before I wrote.  I didn't realize it was that serious.
You say I was reacting to Liberace's being "flamboyant and animated" (I read this as nellie and campy.)  I was not, as I explained.  It was the way Douglas did it that offended me.  I thought I made that clear. 
Damon/Dillon--he's still an uninteresting, wooden actor and a very conventional person who is totally unbelievable as the twinkie boyfriend.
You are right that I should not presume to speak for other gay men.  I DID check with other gay male friends of mine, and their reactions to the film were much like mine.
As far as calling young men "boys," I am old enough to be in a better position than most to call younger men "boys."  But I will not do so because it is discounting and demeaning.  Consider how women react to being called "girls" by men: they freak.  And I think you missed my point about it summoning up paedophilia.  Notice in general straight rhetoric (newspapers and conversation) about men+ young men, the latter will very often be described as "young boys" when they are 18 or 19.  If that is a "young boy" then what is a 9-year-old--an infant?  There is only one place this misuse of language comes from: the intent to say that such relationships are improper and perverted.  This is homophobia in my book, however disguised.
OK, JW, you have had your run at me for past problems.  I have been waiting for this.  I have no animosity towards you, and never did.  Now, let's put it to bed and start over.  Chill out; I have.

 8)  ::)

And I didn't miss your point about pedophilia. I just happen to think you're wrong about it, but I have no interest in arguing about it.
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Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2014, 07:47:34 pm »
8)  ::)
And I didn't miss your point about pedophilia. I just happen to think you're wrong about it, but I have no interest in arguing about it.

Thanks for the bears.  I appreciated that.  Nice talking to you again.  I thought I saw you circling around the fire a couple of topic sites further off, but you never came in to warm yourself.

I am embarrassed about getting the names wrong; I don't usually do that.  Actually, when I wrote it I was in a hurry.  I was on my way to a tattoo parlour for my first tattoo (Someone is tattooed on my heart, why not on my arm?), so I took something for the anxiety and prospective pain--basically, I was stoned.  Maybe that is not the best time to write postings.

I didn't mean that every use of "boy" for a man is distasteful--for a friend, or for a group of friends ("the boys") it's fine.  Where I do react is hearing it from straight people using it as a personal negative comment about the relationship between a man and a younger man.  I have heard this more than once, and from people who would be very upset to be accused of homophobia.  But when I brought this to their attention they stopped doing it.

And BRIAN, what do you mean by disgust at Liberace's "treatment of the 'young men' he picked up?"  What did he do?  I thought he gave them a lot of money and lots of gifts.  They certainly knew what they were doing, and they knew why Liberace picked them up.  If they want to sell their ass, why blame him?  He was a rather pathetic figure; they were not.  If you are going to despise anybody it should be them for being such whores.
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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2014, 10:34:04 pm »
And BRIAN, what do you mean by disgust at Liberace's "treatment of the 'young men' he picked up?"  What did he do?  I thought he gave them a lot of money and lots of gifts.  They certainly knew what they were doing, and they knew why Liberace picked them up.  If they want to sell their ass, why blame him?  He was a rather pathetic figure; they were not.  If you are going to despise anybody it should be them for being such whores.

I was under the impression that brian was disgusted by Liberace's spreading AIDs to the young men, which, back in those days, was fatal.
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Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2014, 12:24:51 am »
I was under the impression that brian was disgusted by Liberace's spreading AIDs to the young men, which, back in those days, was fatal.
FR, are you sure you have your timeline straight?  Someone else will know this better than I, but I thought Liberace's relationship with Thorson and the young men who preceded him were before we knew how HIV was spread.  And, I thought, Liberace did not spread HIV to Scott Thorson.  Did Liberace spread HIV to anyone?  Is this a fact or a supposition?  Also, it might be wise when discussing the matter to distinguish between AIDS and HIV.  Then, perhaps, it wasn't as important to distinguish between the two as it is today.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 12:41:19 am »
Liberace was indeed a top-notch pianist, and a masterful showman. Those are wonderful achievements. He was also a flawed man. Those flaws were a detriment. I think that his life can be viewed as a lesson for young homosexual men: focus on achievements and leave the rest alone.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 12:55:16 am »
Nothing to do with AIDS. Apparently Liberace had already dropped Scott Thorson by 1982 when AIDS was beginning in the USA.
After 40 years as a high school teacher I have some understanding of the psychology of youth. There is debate as to whether Scott was 16 or 18 when Liberace picked him up, plied him with all sorts of gifts then dropped him 5 years later, having destroyed him, when he found someone younger. Expecting a young man (not much more than a boy) to resist is asking a bit much.
At much the same time I was openly gay at a catholic school and helping young men of the same age come to terms with their sexuality. I found them very attractive but never did anything illegal.  I vividly remember  one boy Chris.  I still dream of him. I first knew something was wrong when I saw he was crying up the back of the classroom. Later he came out to me.  He use to visit me (just after finishing final school exams) at my home in the late evenings and talk for hours. Only when I met him a year later and he told me he thought I had been naive did I realise he had wanted me to have sex with him.
I suggested another boy attend a gay youth group in the city and was horrified when he told me an older man had taken him home. I complained to those running the youth group to no avail. That boy later died of AIDS.
You cannot expect a highly sexed youth of 18 to have some sort of morals especially in those days when all gay sex was illegal so support services were thin on the ground.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2014, 09:30:26 am »
Liberace was indeed a top-notch pianist, and a masterful showman. Those are wonderful achievements. He was also a flawed man.

Which is kind of to say, He was human, don't you think? We might not all be gifted musicians and showmen/women, but most of us, or at least most of us here, anyway, I would imagine, have our own personal triumphs and achievements, as well as our own personal flaws.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2014, 01:11:47 pm »
The movie is historical and this must temper my complete disgust with Liberace, his being in the closet and suing anyone who even hinted he was gay and his treatment of the 'young men' he picked up. It just shows how far gay rights and pride have progressed in my lifetime.
In some ways this conversation is focusing on the relationship between Liberace and the young men with whom he was involved.  Others want to trash Liberace entirely, and not look too closely at the young men, seeing them as victims, talking of their "ill-treatment" and expressing "disgust" at Liberace  What I am about to say is going to outrage some of you, but such situations are not always so obvious.  I am speaking of personal experience; I cannot prove that my experience extends to others, but I suspect that it sometimes does.

The young men who flocked around Liberace were, I believe, 17 to their early 20s.  I was 14 when I began hanging around the men's washroom in the city park of the small town I lived in.  (The town was on the Trans Canada Highway, and thus the park washrooms had more visits by passing travellers than might otherwise be the case.)  I knew what I wanted, and had a pretty good idea of how to get it.  I didn't want money, I wanted sex and a man's touch.  I certainly wasn't about to look amongst my school mates--too easy to be outed.  And I wanted older men; to a 14-year-old that meant men 18 and over.  To keep my sex life separate from my school life, it meant casual sex in the park.  It was dangerous and I took some big chances.  But I insist it was ME going after THEM.  The forces that drove me into the park were far more elemental than money or bribes, and if I am being honest, I cannot see myself as the victim--I was the aggressor and I knew it.  My morality was definitely in question, but I was not coerced or enticed into anything.  I remember, particularly, the first man.  I had him so worked up even before we got down to business that he was visibly shaking with excitement--he didn't  know what was happening.  I had done that to HIM, but if we had gotten caught he would have been the sicko pervert who went to jail, not me,the innocent victim kid.

I am  not saying that my case is typical.  Child abuse is evil and must be exposed and stopped.  But in my case it was not abuse; I could have stopped any time I wanted, and I was never bribed--such would never have occurred to me.  We eventually moved to the city where my choices weren't so limited, and my behaviour not so problematic.

In the case of the young men around Liberace, they were far more sophisticated at 17 to 22 than I was at 14.  Frankly, I don't think they were ill-treated--unless you think banging Liberace is ill-treatment in itself.  And Scott Thorson's (and probably other young men's) protestations that it was "gay for pay" hardly puts them on the "innocent" side of the issue.  So let's be a little more flexible here when we encounter situations like in Behind the Candelabra.  Don't be so swept away by outrage until you look deeper.  Dismiss me as an aberration and a teenage slut if you want to, but I was not the only one.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 10:23:01 am by x-man »
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2014, 01:30:28 pm »
I am certainly not saying that my case is typical.

Maybe so, but I'm sure your experience is also far from unique.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 03:26:51 pm »
Which is kind of to say, He was human, don't you think? We might not all be gifted musicians and showmen/women, but most of us, or at least most of us here, anyway, I would imagine, have our own personal triumphs and achievements, as well as our own personal flaws.

Right. The difference is that most of us will never have our achievements or our flaws exposed to the entire world for review. Because we have a chronicle of Liberace's flaws and accomplishments, easily-accessible lessons can be drawn from them.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 03:49:22 pm »
Right. The difference is that most of us will never have our achievements or our flaws exposed to the entire world for review. Because we have a chronicle of Liberace's flaws and accomplishments, easily-accessible lessons can be drawn from them.

Very true on all accounts.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 04:53:01 pm »
Maybe so, but I'm sure your experience is also far from unique.

I did not add my posting above just to tell a personal story.  I wanted to cast a light on the elephant in the room--the whole question of romantic and sexual relationships between either boys or younger men and older men.  Society, at least western society, has been very quick to assume that the relationship is by definition wrong, pathological, should be ended, and the evildoer is always the older man.  The situation in Behind the Candelabra exemplified this question.

I suggested that I did not believe such relationships were inherently wrong, or should be ended before their time, or that the older man was always the initiator and taking advantage of the younger.  In my own case, I wasn't  really a gay "Lolita," but I did know enough from my own experience that this way of looking at the matter was inaccurate and simplistic.  The nearly universal condemnation of Liberace and the also nearly universal sympathy for Thorson and the others just serve to highlight the point I am making.

I knew when I wrote that I was not alone, but I did not want to speak for other gay men--I have been criticized for doing this.  I was pleased to hear from JW that my experience might not be unique after all.  Another posting hinted that Liberace's interest in younger man was a "flaw."  Well his taste in men certainly WAS flawed, but that they were 17 to early 20's does not seem to me necessarily flawed.  But hey, Liberace, if you want men that age you are likely to run into twinks--it's part of the package.  I don't think I was ever a twink; I don't know; but I sure met a lot of them.

In my middle teens I was looking for sex and connection.  I got the sex, and have no regrets, but I was not to find connection (and what a connection it was!) until I was 18.  He was 4 years older than I was, older and definitely a mentor, but we were friends and lovers, not  parent and child.

Whether relationships with a wide divergence in age are destined to last is another question.  Some undoubtedly will, but I wonder if most won't end, as each man moves on.  I am reminded of Full Frontal's song, "You Think You're A Man."  The chorus has the lines which may sum up my idea:

"You think you're a man,
     but you're only a boy.
You think you're a man,
     you're only a toy.
But you just couldn't see
you weren't man enough to satisfy me."

Those last 2 lines could be sung by either of the two men in the relationship.

I'd like to hear from you on this, guys.  This is our territory; we have seen it closer than most.
 :)
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline milomorris

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 08:11:05 pm »
Another posting hinted that Liberace's interest in younger man was a "flaw."

My post hinted at no such thing. I don't see an age difference as a problem in a relationship unless one of the parties is a minor.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline BradInBlue

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 08:16:24 pm »
In most states, sex between a 14 year old and an adult is a felony. Don't matter who initiates it.

There is no evidence or inference that Scott Thorson was under 18.

Liberace was a very talented pianist and a flaming queen who bought young men. Lots of old and talented men buy young females.

Brad

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 11:23:10 pm »
In most states, sex between a 14 year old and an adult is a felony. Don't matter who initiates it.
Brad

I don't understand your point.

In 1952, if the cops caught a 30-year-old man fucking a 14-year-old boy, do you seriously think I would have been charged, no matter what the man said?  No way.  I could have pleaded with them that he was telling the truth, and it wouldn't have made any difference.  That was kind of my point.

Gay sex, no matter what the ages of the men, was illegal in Canada until 1969, then legalized for 21 and over.  Now, of course, it is the same as for straight sex--16 for everyone, and for 14-15-year-olds if the difference between the ages is 5 years or less, and for 12-13-year-olds the window is a 2 year difference.  I didn't ask, and nobody told me.  It wouldn't have made a bit of difference in my behaviour anyway.  I was trying to say that I selfishly put men in jeopardy.  Thankfully I never got caught.  I hate to think of how I would live with the knowledge that I had been responsible for someone going to jail for years.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2014, 10:19:41 am »
I don't understand your point.

In 1952, if the cops caught a 30-year-old man fucking a 14-year-old boy, do you seriously think I would have been charged, no matter what the man said?  No way.  I could have pleaded with them that he was telling the truth, and it wouldn't have made any difference.  That was kind of my point.

I believe I get the point. He wasn't suggesting you would have been charged instead of the adult. Of course the adult would be charged with a felony, regardless of whether he initiated the encounter or whether the 14-year-old initiated it. If one partner is under age, no matter who initiated the encounter, or whether or not it was consensual, it's statutory rape committed by the participant who is of legal age on the participant who is not.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2014, 02:43:11 pm »
I believe I get the point. He wasn't suggesting you would have been charged instead of the adult. Of course the adult would be charged with a felony, regardless of whether he initiated the encounter or whether the 14-year-old initiated it. If one partner is under age, no matter who initiated the encounter, or whether or not it was consensual, it's statutory rape committed by the participant who is of legal age on the participant who is not.

Correct. And legally speaking, there is not such thing as consent for a minor in these situations.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2014, 03:22:24 pm »
Correct. And legally speaking, there is not such thing as consent for a minor in these situations.

Correct.

But I wonder whether, in 1952, X-man wouldn't also have been sent away somewhere as a delinquent of some sort? Or maybe to some nice Catholic Church facility to "cure" him?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2014, 12:21:25 pm »

But I wonder whether, in 1952, X-man wouldn't also have been sent away somewhere as a delinquent of some sort? Or maybe to some nice Catholic Church facility to "cure" him?

You're handing me the correctional system and the Catholic Church on a plate?  Very funny, JW.  You know from my postings how to get me going.  I'll restrain myself to them as they apply here.
 ;)
1952 was a long time ago, and a different world.  Kids used to get threatened vaguely with being sent to training school (Canadian version of your reform school), but unless you were a pretty serious lawbreaker or caused your parents more grief than they could possibly handle, you were safe.  From what I remember of those times, if I had gotten caught with a man in the bushes (in a car would have been worse), the presumption would always be that the man was totally to blame.  ("Where did the bad man touch you?")  The cops would have taken me to my parents.  Realizing there was nothing I could do to help the man, I would have played it by ear .  This would have meant going along with the victim pose, and if my parents had any suspicions, my behaviour would have been put down to my going through "a phase."    To them everything I got interested in or any behaviour that was even slightly unusual was a "phase."  In 1952 people in small towns did not think of counselling the way they do now.  To help me I might be sent to a doctor--a GP, not a psychiatrist because there were none--or to visit the priest.

At 14 I still did not know what all the mortal sins were--for example I did not know that jerking off was one--but I DID know that fucking a grown man in the park was definitely confession material.  I didn't go to confession all that often so I would forget how many times I had "been impure," and it was always "with another guy" or "with another male."  I was not about to say "with a grown man I picked up in the park."  Boys in their early teens mess around.  Boy Scout camp was a veritable orgy--or at least mine was--so I knew the priest had heard confessions like mine before.  And I knew even then that he couldn't say a word to anyone about it.  So, no Catholic ex-gay facility to "cure" me.  The real problem would have been it becoming public knowledge.  Everything became public knowledge in a small town then (and probably today).  That was the reason I took such care to separate my school life from my private life.  I would not have been a tragic victim to my school mates, ever eager to find a reason to bully me, I would have been that "little queer, that bum-fucker."  For teenagers in the 50s it wasn't Grease, it was Last Picture Show, or worse.

I knew one boy my own age who did make it to training school.  We were casual friends, and knew each other from our mutual interest in the small local theatre group we hung around the edges of.  He once let me know he was interested in hooking up, but I shot him down immediately: I could not trust his discretion, and besides, he was too young for my jaded interests.  He burned down the unused movie theatre the drama group was trying to renovate, and was sent away.  He returned a year later, OUT, unapologetic about it, and to my amazement and great envy, he soon found some local men to get friendly with.  I was alternately compelled to keep as far away from him as possible, and at the same time longing to ask him to introduce me to some of his friends.  It was, after all, relationship I was looking for, not just getting my rocks off.  But warning bells went off in my head at the prospect of coming out to him, so I never did.  He got all the loving he wanted, and I got what sex I could.

20 years later I was actually working for the Ministry that dealt with delinquent youth, and I met lots of the kids who would have been my fellows if I had ever gotten sent to one.  They were, almost without exception, great kids who had been so screwed around by their parents they did a lot of dumb things and got caught.  I was working at a special wilderness camp in northern Ontario, Project Dare.  Its descendant is still there, although much changed since the early days.  (Google it.)  The CBC made a movie about it (I was in it.) and we staff watched it frequently to remind ourselves of why we were there.  Anyway, the staff soon divided into the Rights--those staff who had transferred from other correctional facilities and thought of themselves as prison guards for kids--and the Lefts--those of us into peace and love, had beards, and listened to strange music.  The kids all knew exactly who were juicers and who were dopers, who were straight and who were gay.  We gay dopers were the favourites amongst the kids because we were outlaws in their eyes, and they liked that.  Some of the kids were gay, some were gay and had been forced to hustle in Toronto to get by.  They presented a double challenge, 1) to keep them off of us--a hand reaching for your crotch as we sat watching a movie: "Will you knock that off!"    And then later trying to explain to the kid that he didn't need sex to get friendship.  Would I have understood this at 14?  I wonder.  And 2) the gay kids had someone to talk to about it.  I remember one kid, Fast Eddy, who told me about a situation that worried him.  Just before being taken into care, by the Correctional service, the cops had broken in on him and his boyfriend at the wrong time.  The cops threatened to jail both kids because they were underage and sex was illegal for them.  He wanted to know from me if he had anything to worry about when he got out.  I explained the law to him, and that he had nothing to worry about.  He was relieved, and seemed eager to see his boyfriend when he got out

In staff sessions we had role-playing exercises.  One involved what to do if you came across boys in a sexual situation where it was clear that one boy was being intimidated and coerced.  The Rights couldn't get passed that it was gay sex; the Lefts were only interested in the fact that coercion was involved.  The Camp Director backed the Left.  (BTW, he also replaced the required Morning Prayer with readings from Gandhi, Emerson, and Marx.)  While they were filming the movie, one kid struck up a relationship with one of the CBC cameramen.  Staff didn't hear about this until later.  They boy successfully graduated the course and returned to Toronto. He immediately contacted the cameraman, and moved in.  All went well for a while, then the kid started pressuring the cameraman, and threatened to go to the Ministry of Correctional Services or the CBC if he didn't pay up.  It was now 1972 not 1952, and the cameraman immediately called the Ministry and told them exactly what was going on, how it had started, and where it was heading.  The Ministry took the kid back into care, and no action was taken against the cameraman.  That really demonstrated to me the difference in thinking between the 2 eras.

I give this information about the Ontario corrections system to suggest that if it had been like that when I was 14, I probably would have done a lot better there than where I actually was.  Whatever was missing from my life, it sure was not being responsible for a man being jailed for something I had started and had systematically guided to the conclusion I wanted, without regard to what might happen to others.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2014, 08:42:23 pm »
Your story is very different to mine, x-man, even though (or despite) being just a few years younger, I turn 70 on Monday.

At the age of 14 I had no idea of homosexuality. It was not until I studied psychology at university that I learned  what it was and that it applied to me.  I know I was having wet dreams and that I had electric currents go down my body if a fellow student put his arm around me but did not realise that made me different.  My group did not discuss sex. We were more into bible study.

I did make friends with some of the wilder boys (but as it was a selective high IQ school they were not really very wild :)). I vividly remember one of these boys masturbating another in the back of the classroom one day ( a very unobservant teacher  ;D).  I said "Why don't you do that to me?" and he replied "Because you are religious" to which I had no reply.
In my first year at high school I made friends with a very effeminate boy, Trevor, and we were dragged down the back of the oval and "married" then grassed but at least I was the groom. Trevor came from a broken home (very unusual in those days, he did not tell us until we were at university over 6 years later). Many years later he told me he use to frequent the beats below the school and I was flabbergasted.  Sadly Trevor, although brilliant he has a Phd in both Chemistry and English, has never been able to hold a job. He is unemployed, living in a state house and about 10 years ago I met him for lunch and had to buy the wine to take to the BYO restaurant as he is banned from all his local liquor outlets. He told me has bipolar and uses marijuana to treat it. I do not know. We went to a 2nd hand shop to buy a small TV so I could take it home for him in my car. He became very aggressive while haggling over the price which I found very embarrassing and have not contacted him since.

When I was at university, I worked in the vacation as a bus conductor and one day I was propositioned by an old drunk while in the staff toliets at the city terminus. I told some older drivers and they went in and forcibly removed him. They laughed about the 'poofter" and it horrified me as it was the first time I had been confronted with someone like me.
I now know that I had friends who were gay at university, 2 committed suicide, but we were suffering in silence.
I saw a psychiatrist who warned me I would be in great danger as a high school teacher. This has always angered me as I have never done anything improper in over 45 years teaching.
I did fall in love with some senior students. I have carefully analysed my feelings and they were not on the radar sexually until they were about 16 or 17.  I took them on surfing holidays and of course loved any physical contact, sleeping in tents, rough housing on the sand etc. Eventually they moved on as they found steady girlfriends. At least I can meet them at reunions without any shame. I was the one who was broken hearted. Some have maintained contact over the years.
The best one is Graham. His mother was the school canteen manageress and she asked me to take him on a camping trip with 3 other boys right across Australia.
Later she and her husband asked me to stay with him while they went on vacation. We shared a bedroom. I regularly went to their holiday home for weekends.
But Graham already had met the love of his life to whom he has now been married for over 30 years and still loves dearly, 4 kids, several grandkids. I was best man at his wedding, I wanted to be the bride. A few years after the wedding I came out to him. His reply was "I have known that for years, Mate"
He calls me "Big Brother", insists on giving me a hug when we meet but says he draws the line at a kiss ;D.  We shared a hotel room for 2 nights at a reunion of his class last November. Of course he is now 58.
Another boy in the same year, Chris. He left school before the senior years but drank at the same hotel as me. It is a long story but he returned to Wales to find his mother just before I was leaving on my big overseas trip at age 30 in 1974. I visited his mother and met up with Chris, back finishing high school.  3 years later I again visited him now at teachers' College in Oxford but madly in love with Avril. 4 years later again I visited him now employed (not as a teacher) in London and married to Avril. To my surprise he took me to a pub which had a gay bar upstairs although I told him I wanted to lunch with him not go seeking strange men. I was touched that he used that way to show he knew and accepted. Sadly he died in an accident so I still remember him as a guy in his mid 20's and have his college sweater( far too big for me) that he gave me in Oxford.

I did not have any sexual activity with someone else until age 27 when I broke the engagement to the lovely young woman and realised that no treatment was going to change me. The psychiatrists had advised me to find a nice young woman. However I began to realise I would put off going to her place if I was chatting with a young guy and she told me I kissed he as if I was her sister. It was only about 6 years later when I had my first and only long term relationship that I knew what she meant.

Of course, looking back, I know I wasted my younger years falling madly in love with young straight guys. I did provide the wheels for the holidays and the parents often only allowed them to go on surfing trips because there was a responsible adult with them. Unlike Liberace, I did not throw them over when they got too old. They grew away from me as they developed steady girl friends. But I can unashamedly meet any of them today.
Mostly they now (if not then) understand my motivation but in some cases, as with Graham, it has not prevented a long lasting friendship. He embarrasses me by telling everyone that his 2 older real brothers went into drugs and crime while he is a respectable primary school principal and he puts the difference down to my influence.  
So my feelings as to whether those years were really a waste or not are very mixed.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:05:52 pm by brian »

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2014, 10:23:11 am »
I really want to make it clear to everyone that in my last postings here I was NOT telling my "coming out" story.  1) It WASN'T my coming out story, 2) I never intended it to be so, and 3) coming out stories are of interest to fellow LGBTs only at first when you wonder how different you are, and then as a historical memory useful for younger people to understand how far things have come (or not come), and eventually they are probably of more interest to straight people who are puzzled at how we got this way.  These days I am not interested in explaining that to them; I feel victimy when doing so.  (I will shoot the next straight person who, upon learning that I am gay, immediately asks "How long have you known you were gay?"  It's none of your fuckin' business.)

I was interested in raising amongst fellow gay men the question of love and sex when we were adolescents, and when older, confronting noticeably younger men.  This has been an awkward area of inquiry because of assumed coercion and lack of consent.  So much, these two have been assumed by society at large, and secretly feared by the older men actually involved.  And notice that it is gay male situations that gets society excited while the coercion and lack of consent in the straight world--in some societies it is the norm--is downplayed.

Is it enough to sweep our situation under the rug by saying that if you're  a minor you can't have sex?  i didn't listen to that when I was 14, and no one else I knew did, and I doubt that they do now.  At the age when I heard the "call of the Serengeti" I answered.  And I have no regrets or guilt or misgivings about doing so.  Do you?  Really?  I don't regret doing it; I regret not doing it more.  I was never coerced or bribed, and I never coerced or bribed anybody else.  Enough guys were out there who wanted to do it just as much as I did.  The problem was finding them.

Telling me what I did was "inappropriate" because I was a minor says little more than that you disapprove.  My question remains: Why?  Desire, at least in its time, is a great mystery, but one that is answered by a Yes or a No, not by turning away from it by closing your eyes.  
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline BradInBlue

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2014, 12:52:28 pm »
I really want to make it clear to everyone that in my last postings here I was NOT telling my "coming out" story.  

What is interesting is your mindset at 14. At that age, decades after you, my mind was on baseball and summer--no concept of seeking sex or homosexuality.

Quote
I was interested in raising amongst fellow gay men the question of love and sex when we were adolescents, and when older, confronting noticeably younger men.
 

Perhaps an interesting topic for some, but it's way off topic in this thread. I would suggest you start a new topic and see if there are any takers.

Brad

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2014, 02:18:40 pm »
At age 14 young people may have sexual feelings, however often confused but in most cases they have not developed a clear sense of right and wrong which is why they are considered by law to be minors.
The adult should have a clearer sense and that is why society expects him (or her) to restrain their feelings. As a teacher, even more was expected of me.  Thankfully I do not live in fear as my birth country is now in the middle of a royal commision and many stories are coming out, some of them in or near schools where I taught. Though I again stress my sexual feelings were for young men of 16 and over. I do not consider that pedophaelia but some might.

Sorry my sort of coming out story bored you. I am not offended if straight or gay people ask me about it. Hopefully it explains the trauma most of us went through and negates those who say we 'choose our sexuality' Perhaps that is why I can say that 90% of my friends and probably 99% of the people I interact with day by day (not online) are straight.

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2014, 03:58:54 pm »
Perhaps an interesting topic for some, but it's way off topic in this thread. I would suggest you start a new topic and see if there are any takers.
Brad

You are quite new to BetterMost so perhaps you do not know the way topic threads move and often focus on one particular aspect of the original question--in fact that moving around is the norm here.
I sense antagonism in your posting.  I have come to see that this has no place in BetterMost.  Old timers here can testify that my rhetoric has softened considerably since I first arrived.  If discussions about sex--gay or straight--make you uncomfortable, perhaps this is not the best website for you.  This website has as its reason for being Brokeback Mountain--the film, the story, and everything connected to it.  At the heart of BBM is the story of the love affair between 2 men.  It should not surprise you that many of the subsidiary topic sites would treat this subject.  We live here, and will not be bullied into leaving.

Brian,
You misunderstood my motives.  I was not bored by your coming out story, in fact I want to comment on it at another time.  Please do not be offended or think that I was in any way discounting your experience.  It is so easy in website postings to come off sounding harsh when that was not intended.  The "bears" help a little in this regard but sometimes ill-considered language slips by.  Sorry if that is what happened here.
 :)
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2014, 04:07:53 pm »
Thanks x-man. I was just trying to show that many of our experiences, even growing up in a similar period, are very different.
Bradnblue has been around these forums longer than me. For some reason he left and rejoined.

Offline BradInBlue

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2014, 07:29:28 pm »

I sense antagonism in your posting.......We live here, and will not be bullied into leaving.


What? I found your long post about your experience at 14 fascinating and suggested a thread dedicated to that topic since it had nothing to do with "Behind the Candelabra". Sorry I struck a nerve.


Bradnblue has been around these forums longer than me. For some reason he left and rejoined.


Yeah Brian, some time ago I pulled the plug out of frustration when most of the chat was dominated by politics. I signed back up and have been lurking for months. I have enjoyed the more civilized tone, thought out (less emotional) responses and some of the topics and decided to jump back in.

Brad   


Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2014, 07:56:48 pm »
Thanks x-man. I was just trying to show that many of our experiences, even growing up in a similar period, are very different.
Bradnblue has been around these forums longer than me. For some reason he left and rejoined.

I'm glad we got that straightened out.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2014, 11:01:11 pm »
I have just received an email from the Graham I wrote about. Attached is a scan of the birthday card as Graham is very busy as a school Principal and could not get near a post office to send what is now an overseas letter. Sadly his wife who, as I wrote, he loves dearly is legally blind and could not help.
Rather than post here, I will posthis message on the "Happy Birthday Brian" thread where it is more relevant.

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2014, 12:09:23 am »
Thanks x-man. I was just trying to show that many of our experiences, even growing up in a similar period, are very different.
Bradnblue has been around these forums longer than me. For some reason he left and rejoined.

Brian, I don't know if it is because of antagonism or thoughtless language, but I am feeling very self-conscious about posting to this topic site.  It's not you, you understand that.  See you around another topic site soon.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz