Author Topic: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"  (Read 20176 times)

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 04:53:01 pm »
Maybe so, but I'm sure your experience is also far from unique.

I did not add my posting above just to tell a personal story.  I wanted to cast a light on the elephant in the room--the whole question of romantic and sexual relationships between either boys or younger men and older men.  Society, at least western society, has been very quick to assume that the relationship is by definition wrong, pathological, should be ended, and the evildoer is always the older man.  The situation in Behind the Candelabra exemplified this question.

I suggested that I did not believe such relationships were inherently wrong, or should be ended before their time, or that the older man was always the initiator and taking advantage of the younger.  In my own case, I wasn't  really a gay "Lolita," but I did know enough from my own experience that this way of looking at the matter was inaccurate and simplistic.  The nearly universal condemnation of Liberace and the also nearly universal sympathy for Thorson and the others just serve to highlight the point I am making.

I knew when I wrote that I was not alone, but I did not want to speak for other gay men--I have been criticized for doing this.  I was pleased to hear from JW that my experience might not be unique after all.  Another posting hinted that Liberace's interest in younger man was a "flaw."  Well his taste in men certainly WAS flawed, but that they were 17 to early 20's does not seem to me necessarily flawed.  But hey, Liberace, if you want men that age you are likely to run into twinks--it's part of the package.  I don't think I was ever a twink; I don't know; but I sure met a lot of them.

In my middle teens I was looking for sex and connection.  I got the sex, and have no regrets, but I was not to find connection (and what a connection it was!) until I was 18.  He was 4 years older than I was, older and definitely a mentor, but we were friends and lovers, not  parent and child.

Whether relationships with a wide divergence in age are destined to last is another question.  Some undoubtedly will, but I wonder if most won't end, as each man moves on.  I am reminded of Full Frontal's song, "You Think You're A Man."  The chorus has the lines which may sum up my idea:

"You think you're a man,
     but you're only a boy.
You think you're a man,
     you're only a toy.
But you just couldn't see
you weren't man enough to satisfy me."

Those last 2 lines could be sung by either of the two men in the relationship.

I'd like to hear from you on this, guys.  This is our territory; we have seen it closer than most.
 :)
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline milomorris

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 08:11:05 pm »
Another posting hinted that Liberace's interest in younger man was a "flaw."

My post hinted at no such thing. I don't see an age difference as a problem in a relationship unless one of the parties is a minor.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline BradInBlue

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 08:16:24 pm »
In most states, sex between a 14 year old and an adult is a felony. Don't matter who initiates it.

There is no evidence or inference that Scott Thorson was under 18.

Liberace was a very talented pianist and a flaming queen who bought young men. Lots of old and talented men buy young females.

Brad

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 11:23:10 pm »
In most states, sex between a 14 year old and an adult is a felony. Don't matter who initiates it.
Brad

I don't understand your point.

In 1952, if the cops caught a 30-year-old man fucking a 14-year-old boy, do you seriously think I would have been charged, no matter what the man said?  No way.  I could have pleaded with them that he was telling the truth, and it wouldn't have made any difference.  That was kind of my point.

Gay sex, no matter what the ages of the men, was illegal in Canada until 1969, then legalized for 21 and over.  Now, of course, it is the same as for straight sex--16 for everyone, and for 14-15-year-olds if the difference between the ages is 5 years or less, and for 12-13-year-olds the window is a 2 year difference.  I didn't ask, and nobody told me.  It wouldn't have made a bit of difference in my behaviour anyway.  I was trying to say that I selfishly put men in jeopardy.  Thankfully I never got caught.  I hate to think of how I would live with the knowledge that I had been responsible for someone going to jail for years.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2014, 10:19:41 am »
I don't understand your point.

In 1952, if the cops caught a 30-year-old man fucking a 14-year-old boy, do you seriously think I would have been charged, no matter what the man said?  No way.  I could have pleaded with them that he was telling the truth, and it wouldn't have made any difference.  That was kind of my point.

I believe I get the point. He wasn't suggesting you would have been charged instead of the adult. Of course the adult would be charged with a felony, regardless of whether he initiated the encounter or whether the 14-year-old initiated it. If one partner is under age, no matter who initiated the encounter, or whether or not it was consensual, it's statutory rape committed by the participant who is of legal age on the participant who is not.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2014, 02:43:11 pm »
I believe I get the point. He wasn't suggesting you would have been charged instead of the adult. Of course the adult would be charged with a felony, regardless of whether he initiated the encounter or whether the 14-year-old initiated it. If one partner is under age, no matter who initiated the encounter, or whether or not it was consensual, it's statutory rape committed by the participant who is of legal age on the participant who is not.

Correct. And legally speaking, there is not such thing as consent for a minor in these situations.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2014, 03:22:24 pm »
Correct. And legally speaking, there is not such thing as consent for a minor in these situations.

Correct.

But I wonder whether, in 1952, X-man wouldn't also have been sent away somewhere as a delinquent of some sort? Or maybe to some nice Catholic Church facility to "cure" him?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2014, 12:21:25 pm »

But I wonder whether, in 1952, X-man wouldn't also have been sent away somewhere as a delinquent of some sort? Or maybe to some nice Catholic Church facility to "cure" him?

You're handing me the correctional system and the Catholic Church on a plate?  Very funny, JW.  You know from my postings how to get me going.  I'll restrain myself to them as they apply here.
 ;)
1952 was a long time ago, and a different world.  Kids used to get threatened vaguely with being sent to training school (Canadian version of your reform school), but unless you were a pretty serious lawbreaker or caused your parents more grief than they could possibly handle, you were safe.  From what I remember of those times, if I had gotten caught with a man in the bushes (in a car would have been worse), the presumption would always be that the man was totally to blame.  ("Where did the bad man touch you?")  The cops would have taken me to my parents.  Realizing there was nothing I could do to help the man, I would have played it by ear .  This would have meant going along with the victim pose, and if my parents had any suspicions, my behaviour would have been put down to my going through "a phase."    To them everything I got interested in or any behaviour that was even slightly unusual was a "phase."  In 1952 people in small towns did not think of counselling the way they do now.  To help me I might be sent to a doctor--a GP, not a psychiatrist because there were none--or to visit the priest.

At 14 I still did not know what all the mortal sins were--for example I did not know that jerking off was one--but I DID know that fucking a grown man in the park was definitely confession material.  I didn't go to confession all that often so I would forget how many times I had "been impure," and it was always "with another guy" or "with another male."  I was not about to say "with a grown man I picked up in the park."  Boys in their early teens mess around.  Boy Scout camp was a veritable orgy--or at least mine was--so I knew the priest had heard confessions like mine before.  And I knew even then that he couldn't say a word to anyone about it.  So, no Catholic ex-gay facility to "cure" me.  The real problem would have been it becoming public knowledge.  Everything became public knowledge in a small town then (and probably today).  That was the reason I took such care to separate my school life from my private life.  I would not have been a tragic victim to my school mates, ever eager to find a reason to bully me, I would have been that "little queer, that bum-fucker."  For teenagers in the 50s it wasn't Grease, it was Last Picture Show, or worse.

I knew one boy my own age who did make it to training school.  We were casual friends, and knew each other from our mutual interest in the small local theatre group we hung around the edges of.  He once let me know he was interested in hooking up, but I shot him down immediately: I could not trust his discretion, and besides, he was too young for my jaded interests.  He burned down the unused movie theatre the drama group was trying to renovate, and was sent away.  He returned a year later, OUT, unapologetic about it, and to my amazement and great envy, he soon found some local men to get friendly with.  I was alternately compelled to keep as far away from him as possible, and at the same time longing to ask him to introduce me to some of his friends.  It was, after all, relationship I was looking for, not just getting my rocks off.  But warning bells went off in my head at the prospect of coming out to him, so I never did.  He got all the loving he wanted, and I got what sex I could.

20 years later I was actually working for the Ministry that dealt with delinquent youth, and I met lots of the kids who would have been my fellows if I had ever gotten sent to one.  They were, almost without exception, great kids who had been so screwed around by their parents they did a lot of dumb things and got caught.  I was working at a special wilderness camp in northern Ontario, Project Dare.  Its descendant is still there, although much changed since the early days.  (Google it.)  The CBC made a movie about it (I was in it.) and we staff watched it frequently to remind ourselves of why we were there.  Anyway, the staff soon divided into the Rights--those staff who had transferred from other correctional facilities and thought of themselves as prison guards for kids--and the Lefts--those of us into peace and love, had beards, and listened to strange music.  The kids all knew exactly who were juicers and who were dopers, who were straight and who were gay.  We gay dopers were the favourites amongst the kids because we were outlaws in their eyes, and they liked that.  Some of the kids were gay, some were gay and had been forced to hustle in Toronto to get by.  They presented a double challenge, 1) to keep them off of us--a hand reaching for your crotch as we sat watching a movie: "Will you knock that off!"    And then later trying to explain to the kid that he didn't need sex to get friendship.  Would I have understood this at 14?  I wonder.  And 2) the gay kids had someone to talk to about it.  I remember one kid, Fast Eddy, who told me about a situation that worried him.  Just before being taken into care, by the Correctional service, the cops had broken in on him and his boyfriend at the wrong time.  The cops threatened to jail both kids because they were underage and sex was illegal for them.  He wanted to know from me if he had anything to worry about when he got out.  I explained the law to him, and that he had nothing to worry about.  He was relieved, and seemed eager to see his boyfriend when he got out

In staff sessions we had role-playing exercises.  One involved what to do if you came across boys in a sexual situation where it was clear that one boy was being intimidated and coerced.  The Rights couldn't get passed that it was gay sex; the Lefts were only interested in the fact that coercion was involved.  The Camp Director backed the Left.  (BTW, he also replaced the required Morning Prayer with readings from Gandhi, Emerson, and Marx.)  While they were filming the movie, one kid struck up a relationship with one of the CBC cameramen.  Staff didn't hear about this until later.  They boy successfully graduated the course and returned to Toronto. He immediately contacted the cameraman, and moved in.  All went well for a while, then the kid started pressuring the cameraman, and threatened to go to the Ministry of Correctional Services or the CBC if he didn't pay up.  It was now 1972 not 1952, and the cameraman immediately called the Ministry and told them exactly what was going on, how it had started, and where it was heading.  The Ministry took the kid back into care, and no action was taken against the cameraman.  That really demonstrated to me the difference in thinking between the 2 eras.

I give this information about the Ontario corrections system to suggest that if it had been like that when I was 14, I probably would have done a lot better there than where I actually was.  Whatever was missing from my life, it sure was not being responsible for a man being jailed for something I had started and had systematically guided to the conclusion I wanted, without regard to what might happen to others.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline brianr

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2014, 08:42:23 pm »
Your story is very different to mine, x-man, even though (or despite) being just a few years younger, I turn 70 on Monday.

At the age of 14 I had no idea of homosexuality. It was not until I studied psychology at university that I learned  what it was and that it applied to me.  I know I was having wet dreams and that I had electric currents go down my body if a fellow student put his arm around me but did not realise that made me different.  My group did not discuss sex. We were more into bible study.

I did make friends with some of the wilder boys (but as it was a selective high IQ school they were not really very wild :)). I vividly remember one of these boys masturbating another in the back of the classroom one day ( a very unobservant teacher  ;D).  I said "Why don't you do that to me?" and he replied "Because you are religious" to which I had no reply.
In my first year at high school I made friends with a very effeminate boy, Trevor, and we were dragged down the back of the oval and "married" then grassed but at least I was the groom. Trevor came from a broken home (very unusual in those days, he did not tell us until we were at university over 6 years later). Many years later he told me he use to frequent the beats below the school and I was flabbergasted.  Sadly Trevor, although brilliant he has a Phd in both Chemistry and English, has never been able to hold a job. He is unemployed, living in a state house and about 10 years ago I met him for lunch and had to buy the wine to take to the BYO restaurant as he is banned from all his local liquor outlets. He told me has bipolar and uses marijuana to treat it. I do not know. We went to a 2nd hand shop to buy a small TV so I could take it home for him in my car. He became very aggressive while haggling over the price which I found very embarrassing and have not contacted him since.

When I was at university, I worked in the vacation as a bus conductor and one day I was propositioned by an old drunk while in the staff toliets at the city terminus. I told some older drivers and they went in and forcibly removed him. They laughed about the 'poofter" and it horrified me as it was the first time I had been confronted with someone like me.
I now know that I had friends who were gay at university, 2 committed suicide, but we were suffering in silence.
I saw a psychiatrist who warned me I would be in great danger as a high school teacher. This has always angered me as I have never done anything improper in over 45 years teaching.
I did fall in love with some senior students. I have carefully analysed my feelings and they were not on the radar sexually until they were about 16 or 17.  I took them on surfing holidays and of course loved any physical contact, sleeping in tents, rough housing on the sand etc. Eventually they moved on as they found steady girlfriends. At least I can meet them at reunions without any shame. I was the one who was broken hearted. Some have maintained contact over the years.
The best one is Graham. His mother was the school canteen manageress and she asked me to take him on a camping trip with 3 other boys right across Australia.
Later she and her husband asked me to stay with him while they went on vacation. We shared a bedroom. I regularly went to their holiday home for weekends.
But Graham already had met the love of his life to whom he has now been married for over 30 years and still loves dearly, 4 kids, several grandkids. I was best man at his wedding, I wanted to be the bride. A few years after the wedding I came out to him. His reply was "I have known that for years, Mate"
He calls me "Big Brother", insists on giving me a hug when we meet but says he draws the line at a kiss ;D.  We shared a hotel room for 2 nights at a reunion of his class last November. Of course he is now 58.
Another boy in the same year, Chris. He left school before the senior years but drank at the same hotel as me. It is a long story but he returned to Wales to find his mother just before I was leaving on my big overseas trip at age 30 in 1974. I visited his mother and met up with Chris, back finishing high school.  3 years later I again visited him now at teachers' College in Oxford but madly in love with Avril. 4 years later again I visited him now employed (not as a teacher) in London and married to Avril. To my surprise he took me to a pub which had a gay bar upstairs although I told him I wanted to lunch with him not go seeking strange men. I was touched that he used that way to show he knew and accepted. Sadly he died in an accident so I still remember him as a guy in his mid 20's and have his college sweater( far too big for me) that he gave me in Oxford.

I did not have any sexual activity with someone else until age 27 when I broke the engagement to the lovely young woman and realised that no treatment was going to change me. The psychiatrists had advised me to find a nice young woman. However I began to realise I would put off going to her place if I was chatting with a young guy and she told me I kissed he as if I was her sister. It was only about 6 years later when I had my first and only long term relationship that I knew what she meant.

Of course, looking back, I know I wasted my younger years falling madly in love with young straight guys. I did provide the wheels for the holidays and the parents often only allowed them to go on surfing trips because there was a responsible adult with them. Unlike Liberace, I did not throw them over when they got too old. They grew away from me as they developed steady girl friends. But I can unashamedly meet any of them today.
Mostly they now (if not then) understand my motivation but in some cases, as with Graham, it has not prevented a long lasting friendship. He embarrasses me by telling everyone that his 2 older real brothers went into drugs and crime while he is a respectable primary school principal and he puts the difference down to my influence.  
So my feelings as to whether those years were really a waste or not are very mixed.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:05:52 pm by brian »

Offline x-man

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Re: Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2014, 10:23:11 am »
I really want to make it clear to everyone that in my last postings here I was NOT telling my "coming out" story.  1) It WASN'T my coming out story, 2) I never intended it to be so, and 3) coming out stories are of interest to fellow LGBTs only at first when you wonder how different you are, and then as a historical memory useful for younger people to understand how far things have come (or not come), and eventually they are probably of more interest to straight people who are puzzled at how we got this way.  These days I am not interested in explaining that to them; I feel victimy when doing so.  (I will shoot the next straight person who, upon learning that I am gay, immediately asks "How long have you known you were gay?"  It's none of your fuckin' business.)

I was interested in raising amongst fellow gay men the question of love and sex when we were adolescents, and when older, confronting noticeably younger men.  This has been an awkward area of inquiry because of assumed coercion and lack of consent.  So much, these two have been assumed by society at large, and secretly feared by the older men actually involved.  And notice that it is gay male situations that gets society excited while the coercion and lack of consent in the straight world--in some societies it is the norm--is downplayed.

Is it enough to sweep our situation under the rug by saying that if you're  a minor you can't have sex?  i didn't listen to that when I was 14, and no one else I knew did, and I doubt that they do now.  At the age when I heard the "call of the Serengeti" I answered.  And I have no regrets or guilt or misgivings about doing so.  Do you?  Really?  I don't regret doing it; I regret not doing it more.  I was never coerced or bribed, and I never coerced or bribed anybody else.  Enough guys were out there who wanted to do it just as much as I did.  The problem was finding them.

Telling me what I did was "inappropriate" because I was a minor says little more than that you disapprove.  My question remains: Why?  Desire, at least in its time, is a great mystery, but one that is answered by a Yes or a No, not by turning away from it by closing your eyes.  
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz