If you found out your Dad had an affair with another man ...

[starboardlight]

what would you do? what would you think of him?

I was at a friend's party last week, and met a man who is now in his late 40's early 50's? The conversation got around to our movie, and he said that it was a story about his dad. He recounted how as kids, his dad had a buddy that he was very close with. They met up every so often through out the years. But every night, right on the dot, at 7pm, one would call the other, and would talk for long stretches of time. (I can't imagine the long distance bill). When his dad would sometimes be a bit drunk he'd let slip "Goodnight honey" at the end of their phone conversation. He told us about how when his father died, the friend stood up and gave a eulogy, all the while crying a mess, very much a grieving widower. He said that his entire family knew this secret but never talked about it. this guy at the party is himself gay, so he understood the constraint of the time and he said his mother was fine with it, as he was always a fine husband and good father. I suppose the family has had time to deal with it since way back, so they're okay with it now. I really loved hearing the story, but I couldn't help trying to imagine being in their shoes. I just can't imagine not having some resentment or feeling some betrayal? but that's just my 2006 judgmental mind, perhaps.

[starboardlight]

and thinking about this relative to the movie, I absolutely believe that Alma Jr. understood her dad. I think she understood why he's so alone and why he couldn't love her mama. She doesn't show sign of resentment, and that was moving for me. Like Mrs. Twist, just unconditional acceptance and love.

[Ellemeno]

My father was such a misanthrope while he was alive, it would almost be a relief to find out he could love someone.

[delalluvia]

My father did indeed have an affair, or series of affairs, but it was with women, not men.

My mother and we kids were not aware of it at the time - this is why I'm firmly on the side of Alma Jr. NOT knowing about her father because I was Alma Jr.  My father took me on visits to his mistresses, but because I was young and naive and had no idea what sex or extra marital affairs were, I wasn't suspicious at all.  For all I knew, these women were co-workers, friends of friends or even relatives (I have tons I do not know on sight).

When we all found out?

Hell yeah there was tons of resentment, my mother said if my father hadn't been so ill by the time she found out she would have kicked him to the curb, obviously it had an effect on us kids as well.

If his lovers had been men, I can't say that things would have been any different.  My mother didn't care whether my father was a good provider/father or not, the issue was one of trust.

[Chanterais]

You know, I have to confess that while I absolutely understand the context and beauty of Ennis and Jack's relationship, I would be horrified and disgusted if I found out that my father were having an affair.  With anyone.  It would be the most devastating thing.  The vileness of betrayal, and the dishonesty would make me despise him.  It actually makes me feel a bit sick thinking about it.  In the abstract, it's fine when it's someone else.  But not in my life.  I couldn't forgive him.

Thankfully, I don't think it's gonna happen.  Dad's just not the type.  At all.  He'd be lost in a lonely boat out at sea without my Mum.  He is just besotted with her.

Additionally, my parents have never had sex.  Ever.  With anyone.  Not even each other.  Please tell me it never happened.

[starboardlight]

Additionally, my parents have never had sex.  Ever.  With anyone.  Not even each other.  Please tell me it never happened.

lol. so you choose to believe that you're adopted? or immaculate conception?

[Chanterais]

Additionally, my parents have never had sex.  Ever.  With anyone.  Not even each other.  Please tell me it never happened.

lol. so you choose to believe that you're adopted? or immaculate conception?

Oh, I think I'll plump for immaculate conception.  That sounds good.  I am very holy.  Or maybe like Athene, emerging from a crack in her father Zeus' head.  Yeah, that's cool.  I go with that one.

[henrypie]

My parents divorced when I was 13 and I remember having a VERY vivid dream that my dad was having an affair with his (male) best friend, who took him in till he found a new place, climbed out of a deep depression etc.  It was interesting, surprising, almost comforting.  The dream, I mean, and my contemplations upon waking.  In reality, I'm pretty sure my dad's a same-sex virgin.

By the way, speaking of vivid dreams, I had a dream I haven't been able to bring myself to tell anyone about... not that I especially need to... but you guys, last night I dreamt about one of you.   I'm too weirded out by it to say who.  I dragged one of you out of a lake on a little dinghy and attempted mouth-to-mouth breathing, pushing on the chest, hearing water in the lungs.  It was very scary, in fact.  Okay, and here's where it lines up with the essence of Henrypie:  I managed to resussitate the nearly-drowned person, and with huge happiness and relief brought the person into my home (which wasn't my home at all), only to find that the person, while active and healthy, had turned into a cat.

This happened once before: about 15 years ago I dreamt I was making out with Kirstie Alley -- she was wearing a blue dress of mine, and she was lying on a hospital gurney -- and as I was kissing her, she turned into a cat.

Why aren't more of my dreams lucid, with shit like this happening in them?  C'mon!  I've only dreamt lucidly three times, and two of the times I knew I was dreaming because in one dream I was Kurt Cobain and in the other I was Clint Eastwood.  (Deep down, I must have really known I wasn't those people.)

[slayers_creek_oth]

Haven't seen my dad in 11 years......so I wouldn't know nor care!

[cmr107]

Interesting question. I would be horrified to find out that my dad had an affair with anyone, man or woman (my dad is SUCH a family man). The only thing that would bother me more if it were a man rather than a woman is that he would have completely hidden a big part of him from me and the rest of the family. I'm a daddy's girl, so that would really hurt. OK, this is weird to think about now....

And hpie, I'll add to the chorus that I love you.

[Nicole]

By the way, speaking of vivid dreams, I had a dream I haven't been able to bring myself to tell anyone about... not that I especially need to... but you guys, last night I dreamt about one of you.   I'm too weirded out by it to say who.  I dragged one of you out of a lake on a little dinghy and attempted mouth-to-mouth breathing, pushing on the chest, hearing water in the lungs.  It was very scary, in fact.  Okay, and here's where it lines up with the essence of Henrypie:  I managed to resussitate the nearly-drowned person, and with huge happiness and relief brought the person into my home (which wasn't my home at all), only to find that the person, while active and healthy, had turned into a cat.

This happened once before: about 15 years ago I dreamt I was making out with Kirstie Alley -- she was wearing a blue dress of mine, and she was lying on a hospital gurney -- and as I was kissing her, she turned into a cat.

Maybe you're psychic and this dream means something.  The first one was about Kirstie Alley, so maybe the person you dreamt about is soon going to become a self-loathing scientologist?  Everybody on the board - steer clear of the celebrity center!!  If someone asks you if you want to have an auditing session, run! 

Regarding the question, I would be really sad for both of my parents.  My mom for being married to someone who was living a lie and cheating on her.  And my dad for feeling the need to hide who he was and not being able to live freely in the open.  I would want them to split up immediately and get on with their respective lives.  I would harbour resentment towards my dad, but I have to admit, not as much as if he cheated with a woman.  To me, if a man cheats on his wife with a man, it's because he's gay.  If he cheats on his wife with a woman, it's because he's an asshole.   

[henrypie]

Theoretically his gayness could be masking his assholism.

[dmmb_Mandy]

Aww, henrypie, c'mon you gotta tell us who it is!?  


I was also an Alma Jr., in a way. My dad had an affair years ago (before I was born) and it continued for a very long time. About 5 years ago, my dad finally told our whole family that I had a sister!!! I was 17, and I was shocked! My mother didn't even know. I grew up with three older brothers and I always wanted a sister, and I didn't realize that I actually had one and she lived in my same province! I met her soon afterwards and it was so strange. This whole new person that was a part of my family, a part of me. I could never really love her as a sister, though, knowing that she was created out of betrayal. But I accepted her into our family & I treat her well. I love her more as a friend. The hardest part was dealing with my mother, she fell apart. My mother is an amazing person, and I was the only one she ran to during all of it, so that wore me out, but I'm glad as hell that I was there for her. They're still together now (my mother & father), but there's no love, just living. She says "what's the point of leaving? Where would I go? What would I do? I don't work."
I hope to myself everyday that I don't turn out like that. I want to be full of passion & love 'til the day I die.

I will always love my father; he's my father afterall. But I will never fully respect him again. He will never be that king that he once was to me; that quiet, godlike man who used to bring us home pizza on Saturday nights and who taught me to drive skidoo.

*getting a little too dramatic*

If my father turned out to be gay, though, like Nicole I would be very sad for both of my parents. I would want them to part and live separate, (hopefully) happy lives and be who they really are. Concealing yourself and who you really are is never healthy.

[delalluvia]

Aww, henrypie, c'mon you gotta tell us who it is!?

No kidding!  With a dream like that?!?!  All my dreams of us are about being invaded by trolls - I've had it twice in two nights.     There's that stress syndrome thing kicking in.

I was also an Alma Jr., in a way. My dad had an affair years ago (before I was born) and it continued for a very long time. About 5 years ago, my dad finally told our whole family that I had a sister!!! I was 17, and I was shocked! My mother didn't even know. I grew up with three older brothers and I always wanted a sister, and I didn't realize that I actually had one and she lived in my same province!

[nods]  Yep, same here Mandy.  I,too, have a half-sister.  She lives in another country which will give you the scope of my father's wanderings.  Never met her, never will.  Not sure how much she knows though.  Her mother married and for all I know her mother never mentioned us to her.

Regardless, I thought we'd hear from her when my father died.  We didn't.

[moremojo]

This is an interesting topic for me, since I now know, in my adulthood, that my father has had at least one sexual encounter with another man. My mother told me some time ago, having herself learned this information from my father. Now, this is a little weird considering that my father has been fairly homophobic all the time I've known him, at least in regards to me...not violently so, but the subject definitely makes him uncomfortable, to the point where he simply won't discuss it. My mother has characterized my dad as bisexual, but in a repressed way, so that he has for the most part only allowed himself to become intimate with women. Except for that one occasion, which was a furtive, anonymous, and opportunistic affair. And my dad doesn't even know that I know about it.

In all honesty, I would actually be thrilled to see my father establish a healthy, enduring romantic relationship with anyone, regardless of gender (he and my mom are divorced now).

Scott

[chefjudy]

  my dad passed on almost ten years ago and not a day goes by that I do not wish he was still here so we could discuss things like homosexuality, politics, religion etc.  He was incapacitated almost thirty years ago and lived another 20.  Being immature at the time of his unfortunate illness and inability to converse, I never realized back in 1978 how this would affect me as I grew older. Probably my biggest regret in life is that I never got to know the man my father was inside and how he felt.  He was a very gregarious guy in his youth and had many girl friends - as an adult he had a few affairs, but none that I know of with any other men.  As an adult now, I would say do what makes you happiest, as a kid or teen, I probably would not have understood and would have felt grossed out.

[MaineWriter]

I am one of those people who wonders how I ever got on this earth, since I can't imagine my parents having sex with each other, much less having affairs with other people! They slept in twin beds forever--now they sleep in separate rooms. My mother once accused me of using "sexual favors" to "catch" my husband. Let's just say, their attitudes towards sexuality are less than enlightened.

[JCinNYC2006]

Very interestin topic.  When I was coming out to my father the first time, he alluded to having had sex with guys when he was a teenager, as a way to say "it's a phase, you're not supposed to keep doing it!"  But knowing that he has had women on the side has been a major turnoff.  He'll sometimes bring it up in a macho kind of way, very matter of fact.  I just look at him and go, nah, we're not discussing this.

Funny how in a way, there's so much romanticizing of BBM with regards to the fact that they're having an affair on their wives.  It'd be interesting to imagine what the story had been like if they had never married women but had been lifelong "friends" (meaning of course that they had a love relationship but kept it hidden).  I saw 'The Sum of Us' the other day, and the grandmother of the main character lived with her female companion for decades.  They were separated when she had to go to a nursing home and it was heartbreaking.

I should check out more fanfic, I'm sure there are lots of interestin scenarios...where can I find some on here?

Juan

[twistedude]

Juan--fanfiction is under the primary index, when you first look up BetterMost. The differing reactions of Alma and Lureen in "A Love Born From Steel") will surprise and maybe amuse you.

My dad would talk about anything in the world--except sex. My mom talked about it with my sister, but very little with me (she told my sister she'd had an affair with almost every near-famous person who'd lived in Chicagho in her day. I can still hear my sister rattling off the names....)

Parents divorced when I was 8, in 1943...I don't think either could remain faithful to the other, and my father had rather strict ideas about married women not working (unless they had to)--and it was generally a noisy mess. My mom married twice more in quick succession, and then--no more of that for her. My dad re-married in 1947, and remained maried till he died in 1986. I loved his wife, but most people thought she was strict and mean. SHE tasight me about how women are built ("you mean...I've got THREE holes?"--at age 12!)

I don't think anyone in my family was ever interested in anyone of the same sexd, though my mother had many gay friends...

I am AMAZED at so many of you saying you'd be horrified if you discovered your dad had had an extramarital affair with anyone....and yet you're so tolerant of Jack and Ennis (I've always thought, with Jack and Ennis, that when they married, they betrayed eachother)...but it isn't that important to me in real life. Of course it's important not to hurt people, but--shit happens. You get over it--or you don't. It's no reason to despise a parent, because he/she got caught doing something human. Men and women are only MOSTLY monagamous.

I loved my mom, but i adored my father. a brilliant, funny man, who wrote for a living all his life.  I'm told that when i was young, every second second sentence that came out of my mouth began with "My father..."

CLICK TO ENLATGE

[starboardlight]

I am AMAZED at so many of you saying you'd be horrified if you discovered your dad had had an extramarital affair with anyone....and yet you're so tolerant of Jack and Ennis (I've always thought, with Jack and Ennis, that when they married, they betrayed eachother)...but it isn't that important to me in real life. Shit happens. You get over it--or you don't. It's no reason to despise a parent, because he/she got caught doing something human. Men and women are only MOSTLY monagamous.

yeah Julie. I guess I'm not amazed but a little perplexed as to how we reconcile this contradiction. My feeling on infidelity is rather theoretical, since I've never been involved with anyone deep enough and long enough to have to face that issue personally.

I'm trying to imagine my parents. My younger brother and I have a suspicion that my mother perhaps may be bi, if she grew up in a time and place that didn't allow her to acknowledge sexuality at all. She grew up in Asia, where women's sexuality wasn't even talked about much. Only the very privileged elite few had access to those old literature, and even then they're male oriented. For the most part women were daughters, wives, and mothers. As she was growing up, and even to now, the family is such a strong unit, individuality takes a back seat. I would talk to her about what she had dreamed for herself when she was young, and it breaks my heart that she was never allowed opportunities to pursue them. For her now, the family is such a focus, I can't imagine her doing anything at all to harm that. Outside of the family I do notice that she has very strong emotional bonds with her female friends. They may be affairs, but to me and I'm sure to her, they don't threaten the family structure. Those relationships give her something that we as a family couldn't, but they don't demand that she make choices between family or friends. They simply exist along side one another. Even if those friendships had sexual/romantic components, I don't think I'd feel betrayed.

As for the idea of my father being unfaithful to her, I don't know. He's admitted to me that he believes he loves her and needs her more than she does him. Not that he think she doesn't loves him, but that he feels she could carry on with life without him, where as he wouldn't know how to live without her. At their age, I was surprised that he still felt such passionate emotions. it was the most open, loving and emotional words I've ever heard from this very stoic man. Because of that, I don't think he could give himself to anyone but her. Although, I know for a fact that my uncles, when on trips in Asia, have visited "brothels" before. I don't know if my father has done the same. I just can't imagine he would, as he's such a clean freak, and those places are known to be less than sanitary.

[YaadPyar]

Well - I know my Dad was involved with others - I think only women, but I don't really know.  And after my folks separated (never divorced; never even legally spearted - just didn't live in the same house) my mother had boyfriends.

What I understood about both of them is that they really loved each other, really loved their kids, and couldn't begin to make a relationship work.  And you can find all sorts of situations to blame it on, but nothing was simple or clear or easy.  

Maybe it's a tragic flaw in my character, but I can't say that it changed my relationship with either of them.  I think I just grew up really young understanding that promises are great, but that life is a lot more complicated than a vow you take at a single moment in time.  There are so many things you learn about yourself as you go, and so many things you learn about another that it's a miracle relationships ever last.

And no matter what you promise, no matter what you swear and to whom, there is no promise strong enough to protect you from sorrow forever.

[JCinNYC2006]

Well - I know my Dad was involved with others - I think only women, but I don't really know.  And after my folks separated (never divorced; never even legally spearted - just didn't live in the same house) my mother had boyfriends.

What I understood about both of them is that they really loved each other, really loved their kids, and couldn't begin to make a relationship work.  And you can find all sorts of situations to blame it on, but nothing was simple or clear or easy.  

Maybe it's a tragic flaw in my character, but I can't say that it changed my relationship with either of them.  I think I just grew up really young understanding that promises are great, but that life is a lot more complicated than a vow you take at a single moment in time.  There are so many things you learn about yourself as you go, and so many things you learn about another that it's a miracle relationships ever last.

And no matter what you promise, no matter what you swear and to whom, there is no promise strong enough to protect you from sorrow forever.

Wow, that's very moving.  I wouldn't see it as a tragic flaw that you're accepting of the reality of the situation.  It's actually much more mature to come to terms with our parents' shortcomings and accept and love them as they are.

It took a lot of work for me to deal with my father's alcoholism - hell, his being with other women was minor compared to that.  I still struggle with it, but I found that it was much harder to hold onto my anger and resentment towards him for being a lousy father.  Nothing I can do to change the past, so I try and have a more adult relationship with him now where if he does something I don't like, I can tell him so, unlike when I was growing up.

It's also interesting what you said about promises.  I think more relationships than we know of have these "understandings" built into them that allow for these kinds of shortcomings.  I don't know that it always works, but that's how it is for some.

Juan