Author Topic: On Bewitched  (Read 28417 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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On Bewitched
« on: October 18, 2013, 09:56:36 am »

Front-Ranger.  Do gay men love I Love Lucy, The Wizard of Oz, Bewitched?  I don't, or haven't since I was a child.  And even as a kid I only watched half an episode of Bewitched before dismissing it as silly tripe. 


So, yesterday I received a photo on my phone of Samantha Stevens's house from EDelMar!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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On Bewitched
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2013, 11:18:32 am »
So, yesterday I received a photo on my phone of Samantha Stevens's house from EDelMar!

How nice for you! That was my ideal house when I was a kid, and it still might be. I just wouldn't want to live there by myself.

(The house once "guest starred" as the home of Dr. and Mrs. Bellows on an episode of I Dream of Jeannie.  ;D )
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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On Bewitched
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2013, 01:49:53 pm »
I really don't know what's so special about that house! All I remember is Darrin and the nosy neighbors peeking through the picture windows. Those picture windows were a 1950s suburbia phenomenon. What did the architects think they were picturing? A view of the street and the house across the street (and its picture window) or a picture of the people in the living room? It's all too Ice Storm-y for me to contemplate. And that brings us back full circle to BBM and the blue parka that Jack lost in the ice storm in Texas (ice storm in Texas?)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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On Bewitched
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2013, 02:17:24 pm »
I really don't know what's so special about that house! All I remember is Darrin and the nosy neighbors peeking through the picture windows. Those picture windows were a 1950s suburbia phenomenon.

It's a classic style. I don't remember picture windows in the living room. There were sliding patio doors/windows into the backyard, but I believe the windows in the front, into which Mrs. Kravitz was always trying to peek, were a pair of double-hung sash windows.

I have a picture of the house, with Samantha and Endora standing on the porch (there is a "For Sale" sign, so it must be from the early first-season episode where Sam found the house). But I can't post it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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On Bewitched
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2013, 03:12:23 pm »
Jeff, there's a picture window in the living room and another window...a bay window, in front. I assume that's in their bedroom. If I can figure out how to get EDelMar's picture from my phone to my computer, I'll show you! (Yes, I know I just need to turn on my Bluetooth)

I wonder what the closets looked like and whether Darrin spent a lot of time there???

So, I've highjacked x-man's topic long enough...but I just want to add two more things. I think I told you all about going to see The Wizard of Oz in 3-D with my favorite scarecrow recently. And it made me smile to remember when EDelMar and I recreated Lucy's famous trip on the Staten Island Ferry with William Frawley. I needed a smile today!
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Offline southendmd

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On Bewitched
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2013, 04:03:19 pm »


Offline Front-Ranger

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On Bewitched
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2013, 12:53:33 pm »
Yes, that's the place! Thanks, Paul! I suppose that is a purple martin house at the peak of the roof? It certainly does look like a stage set!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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On Bewitched
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2013, 01:45:05 pm »
Jeff, there's a picture window in the living room and another window...a bay window, in front. I assume that's in their bedroom.

I suppose what you're calling a picture window is what I'm calling the patio doors (it appears I was mistaken in my memory about them being sliding doors, because there are doorknobs clearly visible in the picture Paul posted). But where I grew up we did not call them "picture windows." What we calld a "picture window" was what was in my grandparents' living room, one huge window, not something you could open and walk through, that took up darn near an entire wall. The set of double windows to the right of the door are too small to be considered picture windows. I hate to resort to a dictionary in a discussion, but Webster's defines a picture window as "an outsize usu. single-paned window."

The bay window on the ground floor is not Darrin and Samantha's bedroom. Their bedroom was upstairs. And those windows in the roof are called dormers. Based on the interior set, that first-floor bay window would have been in Darrin's den.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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On Bewitched
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 10:53:55 am »
x-man, would you like me to split off this tangential discussion from your original topic? I'm sorry we got off track and look forward to more discussion of the BBM phenomenon.
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Offline x-man

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On Bewitched
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 01:04:58 pm »
x-man, would you like me to split off this tangential discussion from your original topic? I'm sorry we got off track and look forward to more discussion of the BBM phenomenon.

Your idea to split the above several postings off to form their own site (That is what you meant, isn't it?) is an interesting one.  I had thought the first few postings about Bewitched were a gentle, ironic response to my dismissing Bewitched and suggesting that no more gay men than anyone else liked it, but then I saw that it grew.  I am, of course, horrified.   :)  But splitting would reestablish the site to its original intent--reactions to the BBM phenomenon.  Oh, and please don't think of it as my site; I just did a few postings here, not at all intending to take it over.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 01:42:55 pm »
As discussed, I've split off the discussion about the Bewitched TV show from the original topic about the BBM phenomenon. I just wriggled my nose!
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 02:28:46 pm »
I suppose what you're calling a picture window is what I'm calling the patio doors (it appears I was mistaken in my memory about them being sliding doors, because there are doorknobs clearly visible in the picture Paul posted). ...

The bay window on the ground floor is not Darrin and Samantha's bedroom. Their bedroom was upstairs. And those windows in the roof are called dormers. Based on the interior set, that first-floor bay window would have been in Darrin's den.

I should take back what I said about picture windows. I must have been thinking about another show. But how could Mrs. Kravitz have gleaned so much information from looking in the two small front windows? She must have been looking over the back fence and in the patio doors.

So Darrin gets that nice bay window for his den? I suppose Samantha didn't have a den of her own. She would have had to be content with the kitchen, which probably didn't have a window at all!
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Offline southendmd

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 02:55:45 pm »
So Darrin gets that nice bay window for his den? I suppose Samantha didn't have a den of her own. She would have had to be content with the kitchen, which probably didn't have a window at all!


Sure she did!

Offline southendmd

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 02:59:04 pm »


This is the Bewitched statue in Salem, Massachusetts, which is Witch Central, especially this time of year.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 03:00:17 pm »
Back in the day, I believe the only show that had as much (if not more) class than Bewitched was "The Wild, Wild West."  Now that I'm older I'm noticing things about Bewitched that eluded me when I watched as a kid: Samantha's parents (and other relatives) played by distinguished actors, the lovely home, Sam's Louis Vuitton bags..the list goes on.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 03:01:30 pm »


This is the Bewitched statue in Salem, Massachusetts, which is Witch Central, especially this time of year.

Awesome!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 03:07:24 pm »


This is the Bewitched statue in Salem, Massachusetts, which is Witch Central, especially this time of year.

Awesome, indeed!

Now we need a picture of the Barbie doll dressed up like the cartoon Samantha from the show's opening title (I almost bought one of those a few years ago.  ::) )
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 03:12:36 pm »
Back in the day, I believe the only show that had as much (if not more) class than Bewitched was "The Wild, Wild West."  Now that I'm older I'm noticing things about Bewitched that eluded me when I watched as a kid: Samantha's parents (and other relatives) played by distinguished actors, the lovely home, Sam's Louis Vuitton bags..the list goes on.

Where did Endora and Maurice and Uncle Arthur and Cousin Serena and dear, dear Aunt Clara (and her doorknob collection!) live, anyway?

A few months ago, when I was watching episodes on Me-TV, I was shocked to realize what an anti-witchcraft chauvinist Darrin was, actually ordering Sam not to use witchcraft, using the verb forbid.  >:(

Endora was right about him all along, and Sam should have turned him into a toad and moved on. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 03:34:20 pm »
She never really listed to him anyway.  She was always using her powers.  LOL


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 03:35:46 pm »
Awesome, indeed!

Now we need a picture of the Barbie doll dressed up like the cartoon Samantha from the show's opening title (I almost bought one of those a few years ago.  ::) )




Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 03:40:49 pm »
I wasn't a faithful watcher of Bewitched, but I did enjoy it when I did watch it.  I remember when little Tabitha joined the cast and became a witch as well.


I liked the more modern witches.  ;D






although, this has me thinking of something.....

Before I mentioned Tabitha, and the show where Samantha announces her pregnancy, Darren wants a human boy or girl.  Samantha's father wants a warlock, and Endora wants a witch.  Samantha shrugs her shoulders and says "boy or girl....witch or warlock"  implying the witch is female, and the warlock a male.

On "Charmed" it was explained that males or females could be witches.  Warlocks were witches who choose to use their powers for evil.

I wonder which is more 'correct'?


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 04:00:19 pm »
Before I mentioned Tabitha, and the show where Samantha announces her pregnancy, Darren wants a human boy or girl.  Samantha's father wants a warlock, and Endora wants a witch.  Samantha shrugs her shoulders and says "boy or girl....witch or warlock"  implying the witch is female, and the warlock a male.

On "Charmed" it was explained that males or females could be witches.  Warlocks were witches who choose to use their powers for evil.

I wonder which is more 'correct'?

I don't think I'd phrase the question that way. It appears to me that all these shows and movies with characters with supernatural powers create their own "rules." Per Webster, a warlock is male--so you could score one for Bewitched, I guess--but both were considered to practice black magic.

I guess the question really is, "Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?"  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 04:03:08 pm »
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 08:06:48 pm »
I wasn't a faithful watcher of Bewitched, but I did enjoy it when I did watch it.  I remember when little Tabitha joined the cast and became a witch as well.


I liked the more modern witches.  ;D

although, this has me thinking of something.....

Before I mentioned Tabitha, and the show where Samantha announces her pregnancy, Darren wants a human boy or girl.  Samantha's father wants a warlock, and Endora wants a witch.  Samantha shrugs her shoulders and says "boy or girl....witch or warlock"  implying the witch is female, and the warlock a male.

On "Charmed" it was explained that males or females could be witches.  Warlocks were witches who choose to use their powers for evil.

I wonder which is more 'correct'?

The word 'warlock' is a misnomer.  It literally means "oathbreaker".  The correct term for a male witch is 'wizard'.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 08:41:00 pm »
Where did Endora and Maurice and Uncle Arthur and Cousin Serena and dear, dear Aunt Clara (and her doorknob collection!) live, anyway?

A few months ago, when I was watching episodes on Me-TV, I was shocked to realize what an anti-witchcraft chauvinist Darrin was, actually ordering Sam not to use witchcraft, using the verb forbid.  >:(

Endora was right about him all along, and Sam should have turned him into a toad and moved on. ...

I've wondered about this, as well.  And Endora and Maurice?  Were they married and going about their separate ways, divorced, never married?

Yes, Darrin hated witchcraft, but I think he was more concerned about his wife being discovered and harm coming to her and their family.  But I could be wrong about that!  :)

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 08:42:30 pm »
The word 'warlock' is a misnomer.  It literally means "oathbreaker".  The correct term for a male witch is 'wizard'.

Interesting!   :)

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2013, 08:38:42 am »
The word 'warlock' is a misnomer.  It literally means "oathbreaker".  The correct term for a male witch is 'wizard'.

Interesting, but then wouldn't the "Charmed" interpretation be the more correct?  A witch's 'oath' is the Wiccan Rede, their one commandment, which is "If it harms no one, do what you will"

A witch who breaks that oath would be a warlock.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2013, 09:24:51 am »
I've wondered about this, as well.  And Endora and Maurice?  Were they married and going about their separate ways, divorced, never married?

I always figured, whatever "marriage" was between a witch and a warlock, they were, but clearly living separate lives.

I guess I ask the questions that you're not even supposed to think of. I mean, nobody thought it weird that Samantha's own mother skipped her daughter's wedding?

As for wizards and warlocks and whatever, it's looking to me like the answer depends a whole lot on your perspective. Are you looking at the question as an "insider," a contemporary pagan, or are you looking at it as an "outsider" with the perspective of historical use--which was, I'm pretty sure, determined by outsiders. And are you looking at fiction or real life? Nobody that I know of considers the Wizard of Oz a male witch.  ;)
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 10:37:44 am »
... Nobody that I know of considers the Wizard of Oz a male witch.  ;)

Au contraire! Remember there were good witches and bad witches in WOO. Glinda was a good witch. And how did she know so much about the Wizard? Because he was one of her ilk, of course! I'm fresh on this because I just saw the 3D version of WOO that just came out.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 07:16:41 pm »
Nobody that I know of considers the Wizard of Oz a male witch.  ;)

Then what did they think he was before Dorothy unmasked him?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2013, 11:12:53 am »
Just saw this great thread. Bewitched is a fascinating topic for me, for several reasons.

Mainly, I see it as an allegory with a feminist message, whether deliberate or not. Samantha had powers that she wasn't allowed to use, under orders from the patriarchy, aka Darren. She was obviously smarter than Darren, even magical powers aside, and with her powers way outclassed him in all other skills. Darren forbade her to practice or reveal those superior skills to anyone, and she willingly complied, embracing the role of happy devoted housewife except very occasionally, when required to avert disaster, usually caused by her own relatives.

Bewitched began in 1964, the year after The Feminine Mystique was published. It ended in 1972 -- two years, for perspective, after The Mary Tyler Moore Show debuted. Bewitched, with that premise, could never, ever air today. Whereas in essence TMT is really a less-funny 30 Rock (think about it! you can even see parallels among many of the cast members, though Liz Lemon = Mary + Rhoda).

Even as a child watching Bewitched, I was always baffled that smart, cool, beautiful, magical Samantha would marry (and obey!) dorky dimwitted Darren. I thought her evil twin brunette cousin Sabrina had made the much better lifestyle choice.

The show is also fascinating to watch because it's so full of anachronisms, not just sexist ones. In one episode I saw, in addition to Samantha having to beg Darren for money to buy herself a winter coat, we saw Darren's use of both sides of scratch paper as evidence that he was under a spell that made him absurdly frugal, and when Samantha told him she was planning to make chicken when the big client came to dinner, Darren, still under the frugality spell, ordered her to make something cheaper, like veal.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2013, 04:20:42 pm »
The show is also fascinating to watch because it's so full of anachronisms.

That's one reason I enjoy watching all of these old sitcoms. When was the last time you saw a woman go shopping all dressed up and in a hat and gloves (and I don't mean a winter hat and winter gloves)? Or people actually getting dressed up to travel? And automobiles the size of cabin cruisers? And no security screenings at airports? And no cell phones? And rotary dial telephones? I'm sure there are lots more. These shows are great for a review of American material culture in their day.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2013, 05:37:15 pm »
That's one reason I enjoy watching all of these old sitcoms. When was the last time you saw a woman go shopping all dressed up and in a hat and gloves (and I don't mean a winter hat and winter gloves)? Or people actually getting dressed up to travel? And automobiles the size of cabin cruisers? And no security screenings at airports? And no cell phones? And rotary dial telephones? I'm sure there are lots more. These shows are great for a review of American material culture in their day.

And not only material things, but outdated attitudes, as well.

One of my favorite shows as a kid was Here Come the Brides -- a Seattle-set historical dramedy about a 19th-century logging camp and a parallel camp of women who'd been shipped in to be courted by the loggers (if it were more real-life, it would have been a whorehouse, but the women were all chaste and "proper"). Anyway, at the time it was seen as sort of feminist: the cast was full of strong female figures.

But a friend of mine who'd also been a fan checked Season 1 out of Netflix a couple of years ago and we watched in horror. It's actually laced with sexist stuff.

I bet people who were more attuned to sexual orientation than I was would have noticed those elements more vividly. I do remember that any situation involving two presumably heterosexual men accidentally touching or getting physically close was a typical setup for a big "laugh."



Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2013, 06:53:09 pm »
That's one reason I enjoy watching all of these old sitcoms. When was the last time you saw a woman go shopping all dressed up and in a hat and gloves (and I don't mean a winter hat and winter gloves)? Or people actually getting dressed up to travel? And automobiles the size of cabin cruisers? And no security screenings at airports? And no cell phones? And rotary dial telephones? I'm sure there are lots more. These shows are great for a review of American material culture in their day.

Or cooking dinner and cleaning house in pearls and high heels?  :)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2013, 07:31:04 pm »
I like to think when she wriggled her nose that it was a bit like a secret wink that said, "we know who REALLY wears the pants in this family!"
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2013, 07:50:29 pm »
And not only material things, but outdated attitudes, as well.

One of my favorite shows as a kid was Here Come the Brides -- a Seattle-set historical dramedy about a 19th-century logging camp and a parallel camp of women who'd been shipped in to be courted by the loggers (if it were more real-life, it would have been a whorehouse, but the women were all chaste and "proper"). Anyway, at the time it was seen as sort of feminist: the cast was full of strong female figures.

But a friend of mine who'd also been a fan checked Season 1 out of Netflix a couple of years ago and we watched in horror. It's actually laced with sexist stuff.

That was one of my favorites, too! I've thought about buying it, but it's still pretty expensive. I think I must have had a crush on Robert Browne but was too thickheaded to realize it!  :laugh:  I was always puzzled by the fact that only the youngest Bolt brother (Bobby Sherman!) had a steady girlfriend.  :laugh:

But anyway, believe it or not, supposedly the show had a ... tenuous ... base in historical fact. Were the historical figures prostitutes whitewashed by their civic descendants? I don't know. I've never gotten around to doing the research.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2013, 07:54:35 pm »
Or cooking dinner and cleaning house in pearls and high heels?  :)

Now, now. ...

I do remember my mother getting dressed up to go downtown shopping. And she dressed me up to take me along with her!

And both of my grandmothers wore dresses--or at least a skirt and blouse--every day, even to do housework. My mother, however, wore trousers.

There's a generational change, I do believe.  :)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2013, 12:07:55 am »
That was one of my favorites, too! I've thought about buying it, but it's still pretty expensive. I think I must have had a crush on Robert Browne but was too thickheaded to realize it!  :laugh:  I was always puzzled by the fact that only the youngest Bolt brother (Bobby Sherman!) had a steady girlfriend.  :laugh:

I recommend renting a season on Netflix first. I found that as I watched I could practically say the lines along with the characters, so easily did the shows come back to me. And yet at the same time I was somewhat shocked by their primitive social norms (I mean primitive circa 1968, not late 1800s).

I was more of a Bobby Sherman girl back in the (fifth grade) day, but as I watched it recently I realized that Robert Browne was much more interesting and attractive than his brothers. Heck, Aaron Stemple was more attractive than Bobby Sherman! However, according to the internet, as the seasons go on, Browne's character becomes less and less interesting -- more an asexual and slightly comic figure, while the younger brothers are established as the romantic leads.

I suppose it had something to do with the music biz. Bobby Sherman was cranking out hits, and David Soul followed with one or two of his own.

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But anyway, believe it or not, supposedly the show had a ... tenuous ... base in historical fact. Were the historical figures prostitutes whitewashed by their civic descendants? I don't know. I've never gotten around to doing the research.

If you ever have a chance to watch HBO's mid-2000s' series Deadwood -- and I highly recommend it -- you'll see what I would guess is a more realistic depiction of the times. There it's about a town settled around gold mines rather than logging, but prostitution is big. Almost all of the women in the show are prostitutes of one kind or another, but in most cases it depicts their characters with sensitivity and nuance.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2013, 12:45:46 am »
I was more of a Bobby Sherman girl back in the (fifth grade) day, but as I watched it recently I realized that Robert Browne was much more interesting and attractive than his brothers. Heck, Aaron Stemple was more attractive than Bobby Sherman! However, according to the internet, as the seasons go on, Browne's character becomes less and less interesting -- more an asexual and slightly comic figure, while the younger brothers are established as the romantic leads.

As best as my poor middle-aged memory can remember it, it seems to me most girls were more Bobby Sherman fans back in the day.  ;D  That said, I think I might have had a "45" of his recording of the theme song. But that's exactly what I was remembering, Joshua and Jeremy being the romantic leads (with Jeremy going steady with Candy Pruitt), but what the heck was the matter with Jason?  ???

Oi, how is that I remember so much about this show? I do remember Candy and Lottie the saloon proprietor (Joan Blondell) being what I guess you could call "strong characters," and also Miss Essie, the schoolteacher. And here I think we could almost spin off into another thread: How do you define a "strong" female character in a TV show--especially a show from 40 years ago--and were there more "strong" female characters "back then" than we tend to remember?

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If you ever have a chance to watch HBO's mid-2000s' series Deadwood -- and I highly recommend it -- you'll see what I would guess is a more realistic depiction of the times. There it's about a town settled around gold mines rather than logging, but prostitution is big. Almost all of the women in the show are prostitutes of one kind or another, but in most cases it depicts their characters with sensitivity and nuance.

I've heard good things about Deadwood (if nothing else it had Timothy Olyphant, at least for a while  ::) ), and I don't doubt for a minute the prevalence of prostitutes in a place like that, but after watching three seasons of Hell on Wheels, I've also developed a sneaking suspicion that producers of Westerns these days may, in the interests of "realism," be bending over backward a tad more than necessary in making things "messy," as if they're overcompensating for the "sanitized" Westerns of the past.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2013, 02:15:16 pm »
And not only material things, but outdated attitudes, as well.

One of my favorite shows as a kid was Here Come the Brides -- a Seattle-set historical dramedy about a 19th-century logging camp and a parallel camp of women who'd been shipped in to be courted by the loggers (if it were more real-life, it would have been a whorehouse, but the women were all chaste and "proper"). Anyway, at the time it was seen as sort of feminist: the cast was full of strong female figures.

But a friend of mine who'd also been a fan checked Season 1 out of Netflix a couple of years ago and we watched in horror. It's actually laced with sexist stuff.

Wouldn't that add to the historical aspect of the show?  8)

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2013, 03:09:29 pm »
Now, now. ...

I do remember my mother getting dressed up to go downtown shopping. And she dressed me up to take me along with her!

And both of my grandmothers wore dresses--or at least a skirt and blouse--every day, even to do housework. My mother, however, wore trousers.

There's a generational change, I do believe.  :)

When we lived in Oklahoma City we dressed up to go into town -- well -- where and when we were allowed to go shopping, but I won't even bring that up.  :(  When we moved here to California the style of dress even in the 60s was more laid back, so we went downtown shopping every Saturday in slacks, skirts, even jeans.

I know what you mean about women getting dressed back then.  To this day I love to watch "Keeping up Appearances" because Hyacinth and Richard remind me so much of my grandparents.  My grandma always went out in her hat and gloves (my mom never did) and my granddad always wore his hat and driving gloves.  Granddad always opened doors for grandma and helped her out of the car just like Richard did for his wife -- well, most men had those kind of manners back then.  Ahh, good times!  :)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2013, 11:24:29 am »
As best as my poor middle-aged memory can remember it, it seems to me most girls were more Bobby Sherman fans back in the day.  ;D  That said, I think I might have had a "45" of his recording of the theme song. But that's exactly what I was remembering, Joshua and Jeremy being the romantic leads (with Jeremy going steady with Candy Pruitt), but what the heck was the matter with Jason?  ???

Exactly. They might have wanted to keep him free to romance the occasional guest star -- like Capt. James Kirk, for example -- (wait, I actually meant, so Jason could romance female guest stars the way Capt. Kirk did, then realized it could be read the other way and started to change it, then remembered I'm on BetterMost and decided to leave it free to be read either way). Anyway, if that was the plan it looks like they sort of dropped it. I think there were sparks with a comely woman doctor, and an Annie Oakley type sort of tried to hit on him, but that's about all I remember going on with him that first season.

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Oi, how is that I remember so much about this show?

Try watching it! You'll find yourself reciting the lines along with the cast, I'll bet.

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I do remember Candy and Lottie the saloon proprietor (Joan Blondell) being what I guess you could call "strong characters," and also Miss Essie, the schoolteacher.

The romance between Miss Essie and Big Swede was sweet. It was probably the second-most-explored relationship after Candy and Jeremy.

You know, I think that was another problem with the show. They had a great concept with the potential for all kinds of interesting plots based on the interactions of the lumberjacks and the "brides." Imagine a show today, as complex as The Wire or, heck, even Dallas, but using this setting and situation. It could be great.

Instead, what they did was bring in some guest star every week to stir up complications of one kind or another, often someone from out of town who would be gone the following week. You didn't get to know any of the brides except Candy and her best friend (blanking on her name and too lazy to look it up), and you didn't get to know the lumberjacks except for the Bolts and Big Swede. Sometimes the story would focus on a particular family, but after that week the family was never seen again. I guess that's just how they did TV back then.

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And here I think we could almost spin off into another thread: How do you define a "strong" female character in a TV show--especially a show from 40 years ago--and were there more "strong" female characters "back then" than we tend to remember?

Yes, there were plenty of strong women back then, because strong women are more dynamic characters and make for more interesting dynamic plots. There have been strong women going back at least to Cleopatra. As for the early days of the entertainment industry, yes, plenty. Scarlett O'Hara was strong. Carole Lombard and Joan Crawford and Bette Davis and ... well, you get the idea.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more strong women then than now. Think of all the male-oriented "bro" movies we have now -- gangster, buddy, action, comic book, etc. -- and how much more prevalent a lot of those genres are than they were in the days before, oh, Star Wars. A suspicious type might say it reveals some subconscious fears stirred by the women's movement. But I actually think it has more to do with the way Hollywood likes to make money, through gigantic blockbusters ("tentpoles" they call them now) where stuff blows up and you don't need much language to understand and makes tons of money around the world.

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I've heard good things about Deadwood (if nothing else it had Timothy Olyphant, at least for a while  ::) ), and I don't doubt for a minute the prevalence of prostitutes in a place like that, but after watching three seasons of Hell on Wheels, I've also developed a sneaking suspicion that producers of Westerns these days may, in the interests of "realism," be bending over backward a tad more than necessary in making things "messy," as if they're overcompensating for the "sanitized" Westerns of the past.

It has Timothy Olyphant the whole time, so there's that, but actually he's almost the Jeremy Bolt of the show because his character (though not at all like Jeremy -- he's a stern sheriff) is less interesting than Ian McShane's, who's like a more nuanced and malevolent Jason Bolt. "Candy" would be this wealthy widow who's addicted to laudanum. And there's another strong woman who's a prostitute and another, an ex-prostitute who becomes a madam, and, well, a bunch other interesting characters. Oh, and Calamity Jane! She's a great, great character. Did I mention it's based on the history of the actual town of Deadwood?

BTW, if you're a Timothy Olyphant fan I hope you watch Justified, in which he has a great lead role. It's a great show for many other reasons, too.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2013, 08:37:59 pm »
Candy and her best friend (blanking on her name and too lazy to look it up),

They called her Biddie, which must have been a nickname, maybe for Bridget, because nobody is named Biddie. And the actress was Susan Tolsky, and God help me I've never forgotten her or the character because she had a voice that I found weird and annoying but obviously unforgettable!  ;D

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and you didn't get to know the lumberjacks except for the Bolts and Big Swede.


Bo Swenson. I should look him up to see if he's still alive.

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BTW, if you're a Timothy Olyphant fan I hope you watch Justified, in which he has a great lead role. It's a great show for many other reasons, too.

I didn't realize he was in Deadwood for the run of the show. I guess that was his breakout role. I've never seen Justified--just read a lot about it in TV Guide. I believe it's always aired against something else I was "committed to."

And speaking of Justified and strong women, that brings us to the amazing Margot Martindale, who's now doing comedy on The Millers.  :)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2013, 08:41:09 pm »
I know what you mean about women getting dressed back then.  To this day I love to watch "Keeping up Appearances" because Hyacinth and Richard remind me so much of my grandparents.  My grandma always went out in her hat and gloves (my mom never did) and my granddad always wore his hat and driving gloves.  Granddad always opened doors for grandma and helped her out of the car just like Richard did for his wife -- well, most men had those kind of manners back then.  Ahh, good times!  :)

"It's Boo-kay!"  ;D

I miss Hyacinth, and Elizabeth, and Daisy, and Onslow, and Rose, and the Vicar, and poor, long-suffering Richard. A few years ago our PBS affiliate dropped all its Britcoms, including Keeping Up Appearances--and that's when I stopped contributing.  >:(
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2013, 10:45:20 pm »
"It's Boo-kay!"  ;D

I miss Hyacinth, and Elizabeth, and Daisy, and Onslow, and Rose, and the Vicar, and poor, long-suffering Richard. A few years ago our PBS affiliate dropped all its Britcoms, including Keeping Up Appearances--and that's when I stopped contributing.  >:(


Thank goodness we still see Britcoms here on more than one PBS channel.  "Keeping up Appearances," "As Time Goes By" and "Waiting for God" are a few of my favorites.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2013, 09:19:58 am »
They called her Biddie, which must have been a nickname, maybe for Bridget, because nobody is named Biddie. And the actress was Susan Tolsky, and God help me I've never forgotten her or the character because she had a voice that I found weird and annoying but obviously unforgettable!  ;D

Yes! Thank you. I knew it was something kind of cutesy and insulting. Chatty? Blabby?

Oh, and by the way, one thing I've forgotten to mention in this discussion is that at some point a few years back my brother mentioned that he always found Candy hot. So the show really offered something for everyone!

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I've never seen Justified

Well, I highly recommend you give it a try. It's one of my favorite shows that's not on AMC or HBO. You may not be as into Southern redneck drama as I am -- the setting and culture might be described as a lighter Wintersbone. But it's also based on Elmore Leonard's writing, and maintains his signature tone of tension mixed with nonchalant humor.

Timothy Olyphant is great in it as a not-by-the-books U.S. marshall, and there are several other good characters, especially his longtime frenemy the erstwhile white supremacist born-again preacher small-time criminal Boyd Crowder.

You might start by watching a past season on Netflix or something (it's not on at the moment, anyway). The seasons each tell one overarching story, so the episodes are connected, but each season can stand alone. Season 3, the one with Margot Martindale, is my favorite.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2013, 10:05:59 am »
Oh, and by the way, one thing I've forgotten to mention in this discussion is that at some point a few years back my brother mentioned that he always found Candy hot. So the show really offered something for everyone!

Odd as it may seem (and in retrospect it sure seems odd to me!), you could say I had a crush on Bridget Hanley (Candy Pruitt), too. But then it seems I've always had a "thing" for red-haired women, starting with Patricia Blair as Rebecca Boone on Daniel Boone.  ???

Justified has merited a lot of coverage in TV Guide since it first debuted. I've read all the coverage, so, again, odd as it may seem, there really wasn't anything in your description that I really wasn't already aware of. That's how I know about Margot Martindale, from reading about the show in TV Guide. I guess Justified made her into another one of those overnight sensations who's actually been around for years in anonymous/supporting character roles. I ought to check her filmography at IMDb.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2013, 10:08:11 am »
Thank goodness we still see Britcoms here on more than one PBS channel.  "Keeping up Appearances," "As Time Goes By" and "Waiting for God" are a few of my favorites.

I really miss As Time Goes By, too. It was funny and yet still very sweet, so different from American "insult comedy."
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2013, 11:03:53 am »
OK, I do tend to get obsessed about these things. ...

In the link below is a very brief mention of what I vaguely remembered about a possible basis in history for Here Come the Brides. I intend to do some more research, but supposedly--at least, according to the National Park Service, a man named Asa Mercer, apparently the first president of the Washington Territorial University, brought a group of 11 marriageable young women to Seattle in 1864, and another group of 34 in 1866. They are known as "the Mercer Girls."

http://www.nps.gov/klse/historyculture/index.htm

Edit to Add:

OK, once I knew what to Google, that didn't take long. Here's the Wikipedia article on the Mercer Girls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Girls

Further Edit to Add:

Here's the Wikipedia article on Asa Shinn Mercer. And note where he ended up: Hyattville, Wyoming!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Shinn_Mercer
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:23:40 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2013, 11:55:34 am »
I really miss As Time Goes By, too. It was funny and yet still very sweet, so different from American "insult comedy."

Exactly, and there are no dumb characters, although I think American comedy writers are getting away from dumb characters like Rose on "Golden Girls."  But the couple in "As Time Goes By" seem a bit stand-offish to me.  Or am I judging them by American standards or just my own?  Or perhaps they're too old?  Or is this off topic?  ;D

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2013, 12:31:51 pm »
Exactly, and there are no dumb characters, although I think American comedy writers are getting away from dumb characters like Rose on "Golden Girls."  But the couple in "As Time Goes By" seem a bit stand-offish to me.  Or am I judging them by American standards or just my own?  Or perhaps they're too old?  Or is this off topic?  ;D

Well, but remember their history--I'm assuming you mean Jean and Lionel--how they lost contact during the Korean War because of a letter that miscarried. I'd be a bit standoffish, too, I think.

And then again maybe it's just because they're British. ...  8)
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2013, 07:46:55 pm »
Well, but remember their history--I'm assuming you mean Jean and Lionel--how they lost contact during the Korean War because of a letter that miscarried. I'd be a bit standoffish, too, I think.

And then again maybe it's just because they're British. ...  8)

I think its because they're British!  :D

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2013, 09:47:15 am »
Justified has merited a lot of coverage in TV Guide since it first debuted. I've read all the coverage, so, again, odd as it may seem, there really wasn't anything in your description that I really wasn't already aware of. That's how I know about Margot Martindale, from reading about the show in TV Guide. I guess Justified made her into another one of those overnight sensations who's actually been around for years in anonymous/supporting character roles. I ought to check her filmography at IMDb.

Sorry, I should have guessed that from your MM reference. Yeah, I recognized her at once when she appeared on Justified, though I hadn't known her name before that. She's a very familiar character actor. The only specific role I can recall without looking her up was as Hilary Swank's trailer-trashy mother in Million Dollar Baby.

OK, I do tend to get obsessed about these things. ...

In the link below is a very brief mention of what I vaguely remembered about a possible basis in history for Here Come the Brides. I intend to do some more research, but supposedly--at least, according to the National Park Service, a man named Asa Mercer, apparently the first president of the Washington Territorial University, brought a group of 11 marriageable young women to Seattle in 1864, and another group of 34 in 1866. They are known as "the Mercer Girls."

http://www.nps.gov/klse/historyculture/index.htm

Edit to Add:

OK, once I knew what to Google, that didn't take long. Here's the Wikipedia article on the Mercer Girls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Girls

Kind of a sad tale about the one woman who didn't get married right away (besides the one who died) because she was "old" at 35. I got married when I was 36!

Here I'd assumed that HCtB was based on a historical whorehouse. But of course "marriageable," in those days, meant not only young but "not a whore."

Now, though, I have to reinstate my insistence that you try Deadwood. I'm always telling people to watch Justified, but I know it's not for everybody, and aside from TO I'm not sure it would necessarily be your cup of tea. Deadwood, however, at least as I understand it, follows fairly closely the actual historical records. So someone like you, interested in history and the West (and again, TO!), I think would find it quite interesting.

The only problem with the series is that it just sort of ends after three seasons, with all sorts of unresolved plot points. It was supposed to continue for a couple more seasons, but HBO canceled it. However, I read somewhere that might be for the best, because the real Deadwood was burned to the ground at some point not long after the events portrayed in the series, which would be sort of a bummer as a TV-series ending.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2013, 11:24:35 am »
Kind of a sad tale about the one woman who didn't get married right away (besides the one who died) because she was "old" at 35. I got married when I was 36!

Check this out, though. Elizabeth Ordway apparently had quite a career as a teacher and a women's rights advocate, appearing with no less than Susan B. Anthony herself!

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Seattle-at-150-Ordway-the-unwed-Mercer-Girl-1068916.php

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Here I'd assumed that HCtB was based on a historical whorehouse. But of course "marriageable," in those days, meant not only young but "not a whore."

I think that was a logical assumption--especially when I came across articles about a rather colorful early Seattle resident named Dr. David Swinson Maynard, who apparently thought the town needed a good whore house!  :o

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The only problem with the series [Deadwood] is that it just sort of ends after three seasons, with all sorts of unresolved plot points. It was supposed to continue for a couple more seasons, but HBO canceled it. However, I read somewhere that might be for the best, because the real Deadwood was burned to the ground at some point not long after the events portrayed in the series, which would be sort of a bummer as a TV-series ending.

That's how they ended the second season of Hell on Wheels, with much of the town burned to the ground. Plus they killed off the leading lady. Talk about a bummer of a season ending!
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2013, 01:16:49 pm »
That's how they ended the second season of Hell on Wheels, with much of the town burned to the ground. Plus they killed off the leading lady. Talk about a bummer of a season ending!

They're getting kind of carried away with that kill-off-a-lead-character approach, I think. That used to be so unheard of (you probably already know this, but actors in small roles on action shows are called "redshirts" after the red shirts worn by lower-rank Star Trek personnel -- whenever a team from the Enterprise headed down to investigate a risky planet, you knew these anonymous actors would die and our heroes would live). When the trend of major characters dying first started (in 24, maybe?) it was novel. But now it's just another way to stir up publicity and interest, the way old TV shows used to use pregnancy. The Walking Dead has killed off way more than half its main characters. (Note to The Walking Dead writing team: If you kill off Daryl, I'm out.)

I'd never watched Game of Thrones, but one day on Twitter and Facebook I saw people posting things like, "OMG, I wish I'd never watched this show!" Sure enough, I learned that a huge slaughter had killed a bunch of main characters. Since then I've seen a couple of episodes but now I know not to get too attached to anyone. But I didn't get that into it anyway, mainly because I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2013, 01:41:01 pm »
Actually, I didn't know that about "redshirts." That was interesting. By the time Star Trek finished its run, I bet they had killed off the equivalent of an entire starship crew. And of course, on Bonanza, any woman who fell in love with a Cartwright was immediately doomed, and I'm glad I wasn't related to Jessica Fletcher (Murder, She Wrote), because if she came to visit, you could depend on being accused of murder.  ;D

There was actually a certain logic to killing off the leading lady in Hell On Wheels. It was pretty clear that there wasn't anywhere else to go with her character's story line except for her to hang around to have sex with Bohannen, the lead. So she had to go. Still, she was British, so they could have sent her back to England, or something.  :(
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2013, 01:00:31 pm »
I was thinking about the special appeal of Samantha on Bewitched during a lull in my sleeping last night. (Due to waiting for new carpeting, I am currently sleeping in the basement close to the furnace which comes on every once in a while and wakes me up.) It's simple, when you think about it...Samantha belongs to a secret society that is often vilified and she has differences that are not visible. She tries to fit in but her uniqueness often trips her up. Watching her try to navigate through an ignorant and hostile world is both amusing and heartbreaking at the same time. And even Darrin, who tries to be a suit and fit in with the world, really doesn't. After all, he fell in love with and married Samantha.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2013, 07:44:27 pm »
It's funny how you and I read its subtext so differently, yet both are completely reasonable interpretations. Bewitched: the Rorschach test of '60s sitcoms.  :laugh:



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2013, 09:59:30 pm »
Bewitched: the Rorschach test of '60s sitcoms.  :laugh:

 :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2013, 10:03:00 am »
Interesting, Katherine...I'd like to hear more about how you view the subtext.

... even Darrin, who tries to be a suit and fit in with the world, really doesn't. After all, he fell in love with and married Samantha.

I wonder if there was ever an episode where Darrin actually went with his instincts and was true to himself, and how that turned out.

I was thinking about the special appeal of Samantha on Bewitched during a lull in my sleeping last night. (Due to waiting for new carpeting, I am currently sleeping in the basement close to the furnace which comes on every once in a while and wakes me up.)
So, during my sleep lull last night, I was checking to see if I could really wriggle my nose as Samantha Stevens did so well! I could only flare my nostrils a little. Later, the kitty came up to my face and blew her tiny breath onto my cheeks and began licking gently, and I realized I had been crying in my sleep.  :'(
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2013, 10:13:54 am »
And even Darrin, who tries to be a suit and fit in with the world, really doesn't. After all, he fell in love with and married Samantha.

But if you hearken back to the pilot episode, Darren didn't know Samantha was a witch when he married her; she didn't tell him until their wedding night. Of course, it didn't matter to him--or, he said it didn't matter, but considering how he tried to make her not use her power, it clearly mattered very much.

I would have considered that sort of revelation after the wedding as grounds for divorce.  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2013, 03:03:31 pm »
I think that's the point. Darrin was drawn to Sam because of her uniqueness. If he had known she was a witch, he would have rejected here but because he didn't know, he let his heart lead him on.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2013, 03:42:40 pm »
I think that's the point. Darrin was drawn to Sam because of her uniqueness. If he had known she was a witch, he would have rejected here but because he didn't know, he let his heart lead him on.

That's an interesting thought.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2013, 06:30:13 pm »
I wonder if there was ever an episode where Darrin actually went with his instincts and was true to himself, and how that turned out.

Not sure if this is what you mean, but there was an episode where Darrin found Samantha using witchcraft and made a comment about "may as well tell everyone." and Samantha used her powers to give him a dream as to how it would be if she told the world she was a witch. 

It was called "I Confess"


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'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2013, 08:04:10 pm »
Not sure if this is what you mean, but there was an episode where Darrin found Samantha using witchcraft and made a comment about "may as well tell everyone." and Samantha used her powers to give him a dream as to how it would be if she told the world she was a witch. 

It was called "I Confess"

I saw that episode not too long ago, sometime this summer.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2013, 10:31:55 am »
Interesting, Katherine...I'd like to hear more about how you view the subtext.

Oh, you might have missed my earlier comment on that subject:

Mainly, I see it as an allegory with a feminist message, whether deliberate or not. Samantha had powers that she wasn't allowed to use, under orders from the patriarchy, aka Darren. She was obviously smarter than Darren, even magical powers aside, and with her powers way outclassed him in all other skills. Darren forbade her to practice or reveal those superior skills to anyone, and she willingly complied, embracing the role of happy devoted housewife except very occasionally, when required to avert disaster, usually caused by her own relatives.

Bewitched began in 1964, the year after The Feminine Mystique was published. It ended in 1972 -- two years, for perspective, after The Mary Tyler Moore Show debuted. Bewitched, with that premise, could never, ever air today. Whereas in essence TMT is really a less-funny 30 Rock (think about it! you can even see parallels among many of the cast members, though Liz Lemon = Mary + Rhoda).

Even as a child watching Bewitched, I was always baffled that smart, cool, beautiful, magical Samantha would marry (and obey!) dorky dimwitted Darren. I thought her evil twin brunette cousin Sabrina had made the much better lifestyle choice.




Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2013, 10:48:30 am »
I would have considered that sort of revelation after the wedding as grounds for divorce.  8)

You're probably right, if only because Darrin was such a dimwitted dork. The correct answer would be, "You're a what?! That's fantastic!! We'll spend the rest of our lives traveling around the galaxy, having adventures outside of what I've always thought with my quotidian mortal brain were the limits of reality! Quick, conjure us up a bottle of champagne."

Or at least, "Watch out, Larry Tate! From now on, it's McMahon and Stephens!"




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2013, 11:43:50 am »
You're probably right, if only because Darrin was such a dimwitted dork. The correct answer would be, "You're a what?! That's fantastic!! We'll spend the rest of our lives traveling around the galaxy, having adventures outside of what I've always thought with my quotidian mortal brain were the limits of reality! Quick, conjure us up a bottle of champagne."

Or at least, "Watch out, Larry Tate! From now on, it's McMahon and Stephens!"

Endora was right about Durwood all along. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2013, 12:55:05 pm »
Endora was right about Durwood all along. ...

 :laugh:

Exactly. I always agreed with Endora. These days, she could call him Dorkwood or Dimrod or (if on cable) Dickhead.


Here's some Wikipedia background, which suggests my subtext theory is not completely off-base:

Quote
Sol Saks, who received credit as the creator of the show, wrote the pilot of Bewitched, although he was not involved with the show after the pilot. Initially, Danny Arnold, who helped develop the style and tone of the series as well as some of the supporting characters who did not appear in the pilot, like Larry Tate and the Kravitzes, produced and headed writing of the series. Arnold, who wrote on McHale's Navy and other shows, thought of Bewitched essentially as a romantic comedy about a mixed marriage; his episodes kept the magic element to a minimum. One or two magical acts drove the plot, but Samantha often solved problems without magic. Many of the first season's episodes were allegorical, using supernatural situations as metaphors for the problems any young couple would face. Arnold stated that the two main themes of the series were the conflict between a powerful woman and a husband who cannot deal with that power, and the anger of a bride's mother at seeing her daughter marry beneath her. Though the show was a hit right from the beginning, finishing its first year as the number 2 show in the United States, ABC wanted more magic and more farcical plots, causing battles between Arnold and the network.




Offline serious crayons

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2013, 01:03:29 pm »
And here's a segment of the Wikipedia entry that supports Lee's subtext analysis:

Quote
Some episodes take a backdoor approach to such topics as racism, as seen in the first season episode, "The Witches Are Out", in which Samantha objects to Darrin's demeaning ad portrayal of witches as ugly and deformed. Such stereotypical imagery often causes Endora and other witches to flee the country until November.




Seriously, I recommend anyone interested in this series glance through the whole Wikipedia thread. It's a pretty fascinating look at the way TV shows got made back then -- i.e., in a sort of haphazard, half-assed sort of way.

For example, I don't think I was super aware of any cast changes outside of, obviously, Darrin. (I can vaguely remember a change in the Kravitz household.) But apparently there were tons more of them. And Uncle Arthur and Dr. Bombay played guest roles as mortals early in the series! That would certainly be confusing for anyone watching in syndication in mixed order.

Wikipedia also mentions the house, which was apparently modeled after a Gidget set, and cameoed in various other series.





Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: On Bewitched
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2013, 05:11:24 pm »
I think I really would like to read the Wikipedia article!

Endora was certainly right about her daughter marrying beneath her--in fact, in one of the episodes I saw over the summer, I think she actually said as much.

And while I was watching those episodes on one of the "nostalgia channels," it struck me that Samantha pulled Darrin's professional bacon out of the fire so often that she should have been the one working at McMahon and Tate!
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.