Author Topic: "Priscilla" - stage version  (Read 6696 times)

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2006, 10:11:52 am »
Shuggy, Tick, and Sue (Katie77),

It has taken me a while to get to a point where I felt I could respond to the replies in this topic.  As much as I would like to say that the criticisms Shuggy made about Australians was/were unfounded, alas I cannot do this.  When I replied to Shuggy's original posts I said that I found his words distressing; that was truth, but not because what Shuggy said was untrue.  You see Australian's lead the world in making "passion" and "success" qualities to be ashamed of.  To Australians, to stand out from the crowd is to invite criticism.  To put yourself out there as a leader, or to be wealthy, or to take credit for personal achievements, these are all synonymous with being arrogant, or a phoney, or someone willing to step on others to get what they want.  It's is called the tall poppy syndrome, and is what Shuggy was referring to in his "cutting the heart out of things" statement.

In Shuggy's subsequent reply he added that he was also saying that leaving out Aboriginals is also Australian.  Well regrettably, this is also very true.  Sure there are some excellent examples of Australian films that celebrate Aboriginal culture, the recent 10 Canoes is a good example (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0466399/), but sadly these might as well have been about the people of some other country because it hasn't brought black and white together in Australia.  Almost no Aboriginals whatsoever live comfortable (albeit western) lives in Australian capital cities.  They are relegated to exist in outback towns, or more likely, the fringes of outback towns.  We convince ourselves that this is the way they want it, or they're ungrateful for the meagre dwellings we give them to live in.  In this way they are treated in the same way as the Native Americans.  Both cultures are dying out, and in both cases the white culture that dominates them is prepared to let them die.  So again, regrettably, leaving out Aboriginals must also be accepted as an Australian thing to do.

Ok, so then we move on to Tick's reply.  In some ways, but not many, this could be considered to be a reasonable counter to the criticism of the lack of black people (just to distinguish from those with an "Aboriginal background") in a scene that most would remember from the film as being completely populated by black people.  It was one of the most endearing and funny moments of the film where the protagonists "win over" a group of people that are quite probably the polar-opposite of a drag-show crowd.  Artistically I have no issue with the scene being replaced by any number of cultures (including whites), or even just combined with the Coober Pedy scenes, but if someone points this discrepancy and speaks the truth about things that none of us want to admit to or about ourselves, they should not be met with hostility, counter-criticism, and suggestions that they are the ones that are being racist.

Finally Sue, you know I see how you tried to smooth out some of the barbs in Shuggy's inferences.  My initial motivations were along these lines also.  It also crossed my mind to make the point to Shuggy: so by your own admission you are not objective - so this means we can dismiss your comments as being biased?  I wish it was that easy but I couldn't do it because it would be cheating to win the argument.  I'm sure Shuggy will be more than happy to give us the benefit of the doubt, that we're trying to build bridges and be better people for it, but we cannot begin to do this if we meet criticism with a defensive posture.  Personally, I thank him for giving me an oportunity to see the truth that I was avoiding.

This is the fundamental problem I have with the responses to Shuggy's criticisms.  To be critical in response is to miss the opportunity to change oneself.  You don't have to like what he has to say, but to smack him around for saying them is to buy into the delusion that it is everyone else that is at fault.
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horo35

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2006, 12:17:44 pm »
Hope you guys don't mind my input but I felt I had to say something...racism just doesn't stay in borders, it's global!  Shuggy saying that "this is an Australian thing to do" , "leaving all the whites out" is a plain outright racist statement!  If Shuggy didn't mean this then I suggest he better word his statement more properly. I agree with Katie that "there is good and bad in all" but we really should leave the racist comments out when it comes to disagreeing with each other.   Bottom line through all of this is I feel Shuggy made a racist statement and that's a topic that should be left out of Bettermost! 

Sorry Chris, I know I was quite forward but it really made me mad seeing a stupid statement like that! >:(
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 12:19:53 pm by horo35 »

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2006, 05:13:58 pm »
Sorry Chris, I know I was quite forward but it really made me mad seeing a stupid statement like that! >:(

Fair enough horo, point taken, and I welcome your input.  I'm not defending Shuggy's comments per se, I went through a period of feeling indignant because of the "cutting the heart out" comment.  I wanted to say "who do you think you are" and lash back out at him.  But the reality is, no matter how stupid Shuggy's statements are, or how inappropriate they may be here on BetterMost, he is not saying anything that is untrue.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 05:53:20 pm by Aussie Chris »
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Offline Katie77

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2006, 06:06:46 pm »
Dear oh dear oh dear......First of all......if this thread is going to continue along these lines, then maybe it's name should be changed....what started out here, was a comment about the cast of a stage show musical, has now turned into a thread about racism, and how heartless, arrogant and racist Australians are.

Firstly, regarding the stage show, Priscilla.....it is no more, no less than entertainment...I would assume it was not produced to make a political statement, from the comments of Tick, I believe that the casting was done, like any other show, based on talent, and from all reviews I have read, it is a very good show.....

Have we forgotten, that the two actors who played Ennis and Jack, were not gay, but they still certainly got the message accross, that the storyline intended.

Now as much as I really dont want to get into a debate on racism, because that in itself is a "no win" situation, I cannot sit by, and leave some of the comments unanswered.

Firstly, let me just start by saying, that I do not have my head buried in the sand, and know that their are racial problems, not only here in Australia, but all over the world, and if I could flick a switch, and make them all go away, I would not only be revered as the greatest miracel worker of our time, I would also be living in a perfect world......In this real world of ours, there is always going to be arguments for and against people of different nationalities, colour, religion, sexual orientation, gender, and even political persuations....that is what makes up this world....

Chris, all I can say if the comments you made are what happens in your part of the Australia, or among the people you associate with, then it may be time to get away and live somewhere else, and meet more people.
  You see Australian's lead the world in making "passion" and "success" qualities to be ashamed of.  To Australians, to stand out from the crowd is to invite criticism.  To put yourself out there as a leader, or to be wealthy, or to take credit for personal achievements, these are all synonymous with being arrogant, or a phoney, or someone willing to step on others to get what they want.  It's is called the tall poppy syndrome, and is what Shuggy was referring to in his "cutting the heart out of things" statement.


The general opinion of life in Australia is that it is very NON CLASS orientated.......I have many friends who have started off with nothing, and made a success of their lives thru hard work and a few good decisions, and I applaud them for that...if you ever read stories about Kerry Packer, our richest man, he was very humble, and was loved by all Australians...we do not knock the success of our fine actors like Russell Crowe, Heath Ledger and Nicole Kidman (to name a few)...we stand up and are proud, that they come from here, and have made it....

I agree, that the "tall poppy syndrome" was something that maybe existed a long time ago, (thanks, probably to the media, more than the average Australian)...but the more Aussies that seem to "make it" now, the more we are proud of them.
In Shuggy's subsequent reply he added that he was also saying that leaving out Aboriginals is also Australian.  Well regrettably, this is also very true.  Sure there are some excellent examples of Australian films that celebrate Aboriginal culture, the recent 10 Canoes is a good example (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0466399/), but sadly these might as well have been about the people of some other country because it hasn't brought black and white together in Australia. 

Of course it is going to take more than films to bring "black and white together in australia".....but they will give us stories of the plights of the aborigines, and we will get some understanding of their lives, just as we have done with Brokeback.....it wont change the world, but it gives us a lot more understanding.
Almost no Aboriginals whatsoever live comfortable (albeit western) lives in Australian capital cities.  They are relegated to exist in outback towns, or more likely, the fringes of outback towns.  We convince ourselves that this is the way they want it, or they're ungrateful for the meagre dwellings we give them to live in.  In this way they are treated in the same way as the Native Americans.  Both cultures are dying out, and in both cases the white culture that dominates them is prepared to let them die.  So again, regrettably, leaving out Aboriginals must also be accepted as an Australian thing to do.


Come on Chris, if that is what you really observe, then you are not mingling with many people.. "Capital cities"....well, they are so integrated in the cities, that you probably dont even notice them, they are going about their lives and their work, without any prejudices or discrimination.....and yes, a lot do prefer to live in country towns, like a lot of us "whiteys" do now too, and we live and mix in these towns quite matter of factly....some have their own businesses, some have good jobs, their own homes, they go to the same schools as everyone else, use the same hospital, play the same sports....yes, they mix in their own social communities at times, as we all do with our particular friends, but we do all lead normal lives here.

Yes, there are housing settlements, where the populations are mostly aborigines, but they are not bounded by barbed wire fences or patrolled by gun wielding patrolmen, just as there are housing settlements for many lower income people.

Finally Sue, you know I see how you tried to smooth out some of the barbs in Shuggy's inferences.  My initial motivations were along these lines also.  It also crossed my mind to make the point to Shuggy: so by your own admission you are not objective - so this means we can dismiss your comments as being biased?  I wish it was that easy but I couldn't do it because it would be cheating to win the argument.  I'm sure Shuggy will be more than happy to give us the benefit of the doubt, that we're trying to build bridges and be better people for it, but we cannot begin to do this if we meet criticism with a defensive posture.  Personally, I thank him for giving me an oportunity to see the truth that I was avoiding.

This is the fundamental problem I have with the responses to Shuggy's criticisms.  To be critical in response is to miss the opportunity to change oneself.  You don't have to like what he has to say, but to smack him around for saying them is to buy into the delusion that it is everyone else that is at fault.

Now, your response to me......."bias"  ????..not sure which way you think I am bias......

Let me tell you something....last Saturday my son married a beautiful girl, called Karen....he loves her and she loves him with a passion, he loves her two sons, she loves his two children, we love her too, and have a lovely relationship with her parents.....the fact that Karen and her parents are part aborigine is so irrelevant, that I have only included it here in this story, to try to prove a point....

I also have eight cousins, that are part aborigine, who have very successful lives, the eldest, is a very talented artist, who has sold many of his works overseas, some sit in parliament house, and some adorn the homes of fellow Aussies like Greg Norman and Nicole Kidman.

I dont live in an imaginery world of generalizations, this is my real world, I am proud beyond words to be an Aussie, I applaud any Aussie that gives this country some recognition and pride, and I dont care what damn colour they are....the people I mix with, share the same feelings.

As far as being critical to Shuggy's  responses, well I would prefer to say I was being a bit more informative to him about how it is here in australia....He has generalized on Australians by what he has heard from "a few hitch-hikers" he has met in New Zealand.......

Maybe he should come live in a big country town like I do, maybe go live in Darwin for a while, (as I did for two years) and see the aborigines, who fly over to Groote Island and earn good money, and lhave very comfortable lives in Darwin, or see Karen's parents in their own food takewaway shop in Kingaroy, or meet my aboriginal friend in Sydney running his own fencing business....or just stand at a sports ground here in town, or any other town or city, and watch the children, (black and white) play and compete in their chosen sports.

No, its not all perfect, but we are moving in the right direction.......
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2006, 07:39:05 am »
Hi Sue, I have no issue with what you have written in this thread.  I recognise the diversity of your friends and family and celebrate them.  One thing that I wrote poorly and this has lead you down an unintended path was the reference to bias.  I wasn't meaning you in this statement but Shuggy.  Here's the quote of his that I was referring to (emphasis is mine):

Sorry, but I've had too many Australian hitchhikers go on about how ungrateful "the Abbos" are for white generosity to be objective about this.

and so when I talked about lacking objectivity, I was pondering the thought (to Shuggy): "so by your own admission you are not objective - so this means we can dismiss your comments as being biased"?  Oops, those quotes are quite important.  Without them it looked like I was referring to you.  That was unintended, so I apologise.

Now as for the rest of what I had to say.  I know it's harsh.  Of course it was my intention to be so, but none of this was intended to be about individuals.  My issues with racism are about resenting mob mentality and the propensity of individuals to deny this issues they find unpleasant.  Sure there are shining examples out there, and it sounds like your family are right up there, but I think you understand why I said what I said, just as I understand your point of view.  But one thing I wish to emphasise is that such negativity does not consume me.  It is not what my world is about.  Some people are here on Earth to be calming and reasoning, desperately wanting everyone to just get along (my mum is like this).  These people are life's mediators and they are important.  But sometimes mediation isn't enough and the world needs to be given a really good shake of its shoulders.  My hope is that people see this for how it was intended and not just criticism.  Alas, I'm not sure I have done a very good job in this instance.

I hope this clarifies things somewhat.

All the best Sue, Chris.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2006, 05:54:17 pm »
Thanks for your reply Chris, it seems that even though we seem to have a bit of heated debate about some subjects, I do think we both want the same things in this world.

  But one thing I wish to emphasise is that such negativity does not consume me.  It is not what my world is about.  Some people are here on Earth to be calming and reasoning, desperately wanting everyone to just get along (my mum is like this).  These people are life's mediators and they are important.  But sometimes mediation isn't enough and the world needs to be given a really good shake of its shoulders. 
I hope this clarifies things somewhat.



Same here Chris.....I try to not let any negativity consume me.....most people who know me, are usually overwhelmed by my positive approach to most things....on the same hand, I can be pretty outspoken about issues that affect me or my family....maybe its a "mum" thing to just want "everyone to just get along"...I too, am like that, I really hate conflict, and  I I'm not likely to be the one who takes the world by its shoulders and give it a bloody good shake...that task to me, seems far too daunting.......I guess what I think my job is to do, is to start here at home, and get my kids on the right track, then hopefully that will snowball to their kids, and so on and so on.....

I'm sure we will meet again on here my friend, in some sort of discussion or two...thats the great thing about this board, all the different opinions from people from so many different walks of life...we may not agree, but as has happened in your other thread, if we walk in other's  shoes, we get a lot more understanding towards each other.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: "Priscilla" - stage version
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2006, 04:17:08 am »
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. This topic has ranged far and wide, and I don't want to go into every cranny.

I've talked to the guys who saw the show, and they stressed that it's a great show. They were surprised that the outback scene was so short ("truncated") and they described the cast as "pale". So I magnified and elaborated on the criticism and for that I apologise to Brokies. I think the producer's reply - especially its tone - underlined rather than undermined the point, though.

I never generalised about ALL Australiians, and I have Australian family, but my experience with the hitchhikers (and a total of several weeks in Australia) leads me to believe that racism is more prevalent there than here (and Goddesse knows there is enough here), so I was less surprised to hear (perhaps wrongly) that a key Aboriginal element had been removed in the transition from film to show than I would have from some other country. That is all I meant by "a very ... Australian thing to do."

As for "objective", I distrust anyone who claims to be "objective". The best one can do is try to stand back from one's own prejudices. I was trying to say that mine are based on experience.

I could say something about the suggestion that because significant numbers of "part-Aborigines" (a dodgy expression in itself - which part?) live middle class lives, all is well, but enough.