Author Topic: We can make a difference!  (Read 8812 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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We can make a difference!
« on: November 01, 2006, 11:19:51 am »
I'm feeling very hopeful about the upcoming elections. Here's a quote from a Human Rights Campaign message I received:

Quote
Making sure that people know the records of the candidates and having a fair-minded majority in Congress will broadcast this message – loud and clear – across the country: The days of runaway anti-gay extremism are over. America is turning a corner – and pro-equality voters are leading the way.


Here in Colorado, the Democrat in the governor's race is ahead and Latino vote registration is up by 38%! We also have a chance of passing the same-sex partner recognition bill (odd name for it, but it's a start!)
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2006, 03:29:04 pm »
Interesting how the HR campaign suggests "fair-minded" may only be found amongst the democrat party. bigotry is like disease; it is an equal opportunity infection, IMO.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 04:04:06 pm »
Interesting how the HR campaign suggests "fair-minded" may only be found amongst the democrat party. bigotry is like disease; it is an equal opportunity infection, IMO.

Well, you've gotta admit bigotry seems to be more widespread within the Republican party.  After all, they're the ones who seem to think it's OK to legislate (their view of) morality.

To me, the Republican motto is "If it doesn't affect me directly, I don't care and/or it's not allowed."
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 05:54:39 pm »
Judy Shepherd and Candace Gingrich joined Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper at a rally last Tuesday for the Resolution I measure that would recognize same-ssex partnerships. The HRC has given $100,000 for the campaign, but Focus on the Family has given $800,000 to defeat it. Nevertheless, I believe we shall prevail in Colorado!!
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 06:38:16 pm »
Well, you've gotta admit bigotry seems to be more widespread within the Republican party.  After all, they're the ones who seem to think it's OK to legislate (their view of) morality.


Aren't the legislations being discussed a view of morality as well, and if passed, then, democrats will have deemed it OK to legislate (their view of) morality?

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 06:50:09 pm »
Aren't the legislations being discussed a view of morality as well, and if passed, then, democrats will have deemed it OK to legislate (their view of) morality?

EXCUSE ME! I don't understand! Are you saying that equality is someone's "view of morality"? That's what I'm understanding in your coment. Please help me understand where I misunderstood ...
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 06:55:06 pm »
I prefer to use the term social behavior rather than morality because it is an emotionally charged word with a very vague definition. Almost all legislation seeks to influence social behavior in some way.
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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 07:00:26 pm »
Lee, you might be interested in knowing that filmmaker Pier Paolo Pasolini made some very provocative comments on legislation before his murder in 1975 (thirty-one years ago to the month), at around the time he was completing what proved to be his last film, Salo o le 120 giornate di Sodoma (an adaptation of Sade's Les cent-vingt journees de Sodome). Pasolini stated that he found something bestial in the very act of legislation, that there was something primitive and power-mongering in anyone presuming to legislate the behavior of others. I find Pasolini's view on this overly extreme, but it is potentially challenging to muse on how legislation might be ANYTHING other than the moral act or impulse some argue it to be.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 07:10:18 pm »
I wonder if he would have changed his mind had he lived after that brutal attack...
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 09:22:35 pm »
EXCUSE ME! I don't understand! Are you saying that equality is someone's "view of morality"? That's what I'm understanding in your coment. Please help me understand where I misunderstood ...

Front Ranger is right, 'social behavior' is a preferred way to label the subject for all the good reasons he mentioned.

And yes, everyone in this country is already granted equality. However, by virtue of the massive social/political/economic system, the legislators manipulate social behavior and "rights" in order to make things better for the common good. there are no true equalities in taxes, access to education and health care, jobs, etc etc etc, but in theory, there is and it is always a goal where inequality is determined to be a problem.

The instruments in place, via previous legislation (in most areas), that provide for nearly every "right" a man/woman married couple have (some not) can be implemented without "marriage". The vast majority of the population prefers this approach, basis the last survey I saw on a national scope.

Frankly, the issue is even more simple--money. this missing rights at issue are usually automatic inheritance by spouses and spousal death benefits. The spousal benefits structures were largely put in place during the Depression when many men died and left wives alone with children and no support. today, the situations are not so similar, and for BOTH straight and gay couples, another tax benefit for the rich is draining resources from much needed programs. Setting able-bodied gay men or straight women up for survivor benefits at the expense of children and education, for example, may not be the great idea it seems. The gay community is the most affluent demographic in America, and I for one feel that a larger part of the tax and benefit burden one us is not wrong. The money should be used where it's needed most, not in making already good lives better while others falter and sink.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 09:56:41 pm »
Front Ranger is right, 'social behavior' is a preferred way to label the subject for all the good reasons he mentioned.

And yes, everyone in this country is already granted equality. However, by virtue of the massive social/political/economic system, the legislators manipulate social behavior and "rights" in order to make things better for the common good. there are no true equalities in taxes, access to education and health care, jobs, etc etc etc, but in theory, there is and it is always a goal where inequality is determined to be a problem.

The instruments in place, via previous legislation (in most areas), that provide for nearly every "right" a man/woman married couple have (some not) can be implemented without "marriage". The vast majority of the population prefers this approach, basis the last survey I saw on a national scope.

Frankly, the issue is even more simple--money. this missing rights at issue are usually automatic inheritance by spouses and spousal death benefits. The spousal benefits structures were largely put in place during the Depression when many men died and left wives alone with children and no support. today, the situations are not so similar, and for BOTH straight and gay couples, another tax benefit for the rich is draining resources from much needed programs. Setting able-bodied gay men or straight women up for survivor benefits at the expense of children and education, for example, may not be the great idea it seems. The gay community is the most affluent demographic in America, and I for one feel that a larger part of the tax and benefit burden one us is not wrong. The money should be used where it's needed most, not in making already good lives better while others falter and sink.

OK I think I understand what the problem is. Some Americans believe that what "the vast majority of the population prefers" is more important than basic freedoms.
As in, if the vast majority of Americans approve of slavery, than it's alright, because majority rules, not justice or equality. Sorry, you need not talk about taxation equality on the same level as freedoms: feedom to be accepted for what a person is, equality before the law with regards to who you chose to have as your lifelong mate.

I don't even accept the equal but different basis of "civil unions" that some countries like South Africa & Great Britain enspouces. They are lies of freedom of equality with regards to true justice. Now let's not talk about the freedom of serving one's country because of orientation - because " the vast majority of the population prefers " it that way. You guys have a lot to learn about true justice and true freedom, for all - you won't achive it with popularity polls!

Nearly 40 years ago, Pierre Elliot Trudeau talked on & on about a just society - seemed like talk talk at the time, but within 15 years he had produced the most important first commandment on the subject, from which all rights have since been based - the Charter of Rights. That's how come, in Canada 8 of the 13 jurisdictions have made marriage (not civil union) the LAW before the majority of elected officials finally put in a law on the subject. I'm proud to be a Canadian - Even our lack luster leaders - Chrétien & Martin, both catholics, disregarded the condemnation of the Canadian clergy, to ennact this law - cause it was the right thing to do. (By the way - within the next 10 years, you'll probably be hearing from the next generation of Trudeau - Justin appears to have a head on his shoulders, and a good deal of charisma too)
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2006, 10:23:56 pm »
Well, your understanding of civics is simply an opinion deserving of respect, but lacks credibility with silly analogies like slavery being reinstalled if a majority vote was taken.

Basic freedoms? Funny how Republican people get when they want to feather their own nests.

Thanks for reading and sharing!

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2006, 10:32:31 pm »
Well, your understanding of civics is simply an opinion deserving of respect, but lacks credibility with silly analogies like slavery being reinstalled if a majority vote was taken.

Basic freedoms? Funny how Republican people get when they want to feather their own nests.

Thanks for reading and sharing!
The hyperbole concerning slavery notwithstanding, basic civil rights have not been achieved yet in the states, with regards to Americans who are not of the majority (gays!) The majority is ruling based on popularity polls, not on true freedoms & true justice. What would you have had to say, were the analogy to slavery been removed from my last post?
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injest

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 10:53:53 pm »
Front Ranger is right, 'social behavior' is a preferred way to label the subject for all the good reasons he mentioned.

And yes, everyone in this country is already granted equality. However, by virtue of the massive social/political/economic system, the legislators manipulate social behavior and "rights" in order to make things better for the common good. there are no true equalities in taxes, access to education and health care, jobs, etc etc etc, but in theory, there is and it is always a goal where inequality is determined to be a problem.

The instruments in place, via previous legislation (in most areas), that provide for nearly every "right" a man/woman married couple have (some not) can be implemented without "marriage". The vast majority of the population prefers this approach, basis the last survey I saw on a national scope.

Frankly, the issue is even more simple--money. this missing rights at issue are usually automatic inheritance by spouses and spousal death benefits. The spousal benefits structures were largely put in place during the Depression when many men died and left wives alone with children and no support. today, the situations are not so similar, and for BOTH straight and gay couples, another tax benefit for the rich is draining resources from much needed programs. Setting able-bodied gay men or straight women up for survivor benefits at the expense of children and education, for example, may not be the great idea it seems. The gay community is the most affluent demographic in America, and I for one feel that a larger part of the tax and benefit burden one us is not wrong. The money should be used where it's needed most, not in making already good lives better while others falter and sink.

so you feel that 'the common good' is more important than individual rights?

you would throw out the Bill of Rights (which specifies INDIVIDUALS rights)

and of course the Constitution itself...


injest

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 10:55:28 pm »
Front Ranger is right, 'social behavior' is a preferred way to label the subject for all the good reasons he mentioned.

And yes, everyone in this country is already granted equality. However, by virtue of the massive social/political/economic system, the legislators manipulate social behavior and "rights" in order to make things better for the common good. there are no true equalities in taxes, access to education and health care, jobs, etc etc etc, but in theory, there is and it is always a goal where inequality is determined to be a problem.

The instruments in place, via previous legislation (in most areas), that provide for nearly every "right" a man/woman married couple have (some not) can be implemented without "marriage". The vast majority of the population prefers this approach, basis the last survey I saw on a national scope.

Frankly, the issue is even more simple--money. this missing rights at issue are usually automatic inheritance by spouses and spousal death benefits. The spousal benefits structures were largely put in place during the Depression when many men died and left wives alone with children and no support. today, the situations are not so similar, and for BOTH straight and gay couples, another tax benefit for the rich is draining resources from much needed programs. Setting able-bodied gay men or straight women up for survivor benefits at the expense of children and education, for example, may not be the great idea it seems. The gay community is the most affluent demographic in America, and I for one feel that a larger part of the tax and benefit burden one us is not wrong. The money should be used where it's needed most, not in making already good lives better while others falter and sink.

after readin g your post again...seems you are more for a socialist form of government or am I misreading?

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 11:01:37 pm »
What would you have had to say, were the analogy to slavery been removed from my last post?

That you still appear to not make logical sense, when it comes to republics, democracies, and how the state functions.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 11:03:34 pm »
after readin g your post again...seems you are more for a socialist form of government or am I misreading?

Not really sociailist, perhaps skewing such, but that is true of what we have, and surely moving in that direction. Individual rights are always tempered by the common good, and the Bill of Rights does not abscure that truism. Yes? thanks again.

injest

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2006, 01:00:40 am »
That you still appear to not make logical sense, when it comes to republics, democracies, and how the state functions.

but it seems to me that Roland is not speaking to how the state functions...but rather HOW they SHOULD function...

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2006, 02:51:02 am »
but it seems to me that Roland is not speaking to how the state functions...but rather HOW they SHOULD function...

yes, and no one SHOULD die of cancer.

I apologize for touching nerves; my perspective is like a chicken wandering into a fox hole, I know. You all are obviously thinking people, but the vastly self-oriented view of 'rights at all cost' approach disappoints my faith in the real agenda at hand. What value is to be achieved or helped? Children? no. Education? No. Health care? No. Housing for the poor? No. etc etc. Rather, substantial windfalls via tax breaks for a very affluent segment of society. Leftwing, liberal groups have screamed and whined about Bush's 'tax breaks for the wealthy' yet the mission to achieve financial benefits via gay "marriage" is no less, if not more, of the same manipulation of funds that should be in the public use. There is a disingenuousness about the campaign and a level of hypocrisy that creeps me out and reeks of 'follow the money' and self enrichment.

thanks for listening.

PS...thanks injest for moderating with good questions/comments.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 02:52:37 am by HerrKaiser »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2006, 04:04:23 pm »
There's a little card that I carry around in my pocket that consists of the 1st ten amendments of the US constitution...commonly referred to as the Bill of Rights. And they are a bill of rights, not a bill of exclusions. That's why I oppose adding amendments to the Constitutions that exclude people's rights rather than affirm them. Anyway, the one most precious to me is the First Amendment, which reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2006, 04:32:40 pm »
What so few people understand about the First Amendment is that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion (as the case may be).
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injest

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 07:24:09 pm »
Herr...you are making a big assumption that the only reason gay people want to get married is financial. But the gay people I have talked to do not cite that as one of their main reasons for wanting marriage. Rather they seem to want the right to make medical decisions, to inheret personal belongings, to be accepted.

Admittedly, we can't FORCE anyone to be happy that two same sex people are married, but we can force by law people to not discriminate against them.


Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2006, 08:57:02 pm »
Herr...you are making a big assumption that the only reason gay people want to get married is financial. But the gay people I have talked to do not cite that as one of their main reasons for wanting marriage. Rather they seem to want the right to make medical decisions, to inheret personal belongings, to be accepted.



thanks, but actually, I was not making an assumption. The financial benefits are the main driving force for the campaign/political effort; I know...I was involved in the early days. The other items you mention are already available in the same ways as for anyone else--write a medical power of attorney and Will. Anyway, this issue will go on, like abortion, for a long long time and my sense is most everyone has a firm position staked out and is unwilling to bend, revise their thinking, or accept facts that do not support their POV on the issue. It's emotional, and as such, it's one of those items that will probably continue to divide rather than unite, unfortunately. thanks for listening! cheers!

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2006, 09:16:54 pm »
Anyway, this issue will go on, like abortion, for a long long time and my sense is most everyone has a firm position staked out and is unwilling to bend, revise their thinking, or accept facts that do not support their POV on the issue. It's emotional, and as such, it's one of those items that will probably continue to divide rather than unite, unfortunately

Again with the load of c**p

It's a simple human rights thing.

It needn't take a long time - just people who care about justice and true equality to act up. This inequality is nothing short of bigotry - ingrained by years of acceptance - not acting up!

It's not about economics! (What? Canada & Spain are going to go down the toilet drain economically because of their marriage laws!?) - that's just another silly red herring, that not too many bettermost folks will buy!

You said it earlier - your "perspective is like a chicken wandering into a fox hole" - and yet you keep dancing...
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2006, 09:59:52 pm »


You said it earlier - your "perspective is like a chicken wandering into a fox hole" - and yet you keep dancing...

...and you keep on showing how intolerant and narrowminded you are. shame on you.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2006, 10:18:59 pm »
...and you keep on showing how intolerant and narrowminded you are. shame on you.
In what way is your calling me narrowminded, and intolerant responding to any of my comments?

I see no shame in calling your argument what they are - unbelievable and certainly outdated.

The world is finally changing on the subject at hand, and America will have to either change it's intolerance (and not just go on discussing it for a long long time), or it should stop refering to itself as "the land of the free" - "the leader of the free world" - cause it no longer is.

Like on the subject of capital punishment, I hope it won't stay a couple of generations behind the times - and let's not talk about gun laws ...
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2006, 11:23:50 pm »
Excuse me, here but will you two please shape up or I'm kickin you out of my salon. I started this topic, and it wasn't for the purpose of lettin people piss on each other! As I see it, everyone's got a God-given right that supercedes the Constitution or whatever we mere mortals have put together, to seek union with another human being. And they should pursue it as far as it goes, there ain't no reins on this one! And that's all I have to say about that!
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2006, 11:47:28 pm »
The first of the marriage debates that I listened to, in Vermont, was very enlightening in a number of ways. I had recently gotten married myself, after living with my partner for seven years, and still had mixed feelings about the institution. And then suddenly there were all these people speaking out about why they wanted the opportunity to get married. Couples raising children together, couples dealing with sicknesses, couples who just wanted what I had had, a nice little party with my friends and family to celebrate a relationship.

And on the other side, there was this insane, irrational hatred. All this nonsensical stuff about protecting children, and about how the purpose of marriage was to have children. ("Huh," I thought. "And why aren't they campaigning to keep infertile heterosexuals from marrying, or to keep post-menopausal women from marrying?" Birth control for married people, I suspected, might be next on their hit list.)

And it created a statewide conversation, even if it ultimately resulted in civil unions rather than marriage.

Colorado's two ballot initiatives (domestic partnerships and a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage), on the other hand, don't seem to be starting conversations. The domestic partnership initiative is promoted as "not marriage... see, it's NOT MARRIAGE." And it seems as if that defensiveness concedes an important part of the debate, even before it starts. The practical parts, inheritance rights and rights to participate in medical decisions and all, are important, but what was really powerful about the debates in Vermont was the realization that these are real people, our friends and neighbors, and this is fundamentally unfair to them. And I'm not hearing that story being told in Colorado.

I still want to defeat Focus on the Family here in their home state, though.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2006, 09:58:57 am »
Excuse me, here but will you two please shape up or I'm kickin you out of my salon. I started this topic, and it wasn't for the purpose of lettin people piss on each other! As I see it, everyone's got a God-given right that supercedes the Constitution or whatever we mere mortals have put together, to seek union with another human being. And they should pursue it as far as it goes, there ain't no reins on this one! And that's all I have to say about that!

Agreed.  Not to add fuel to the fire, but abortion is a whole lot different issue from gay marriage.  In the former, you're talking about a human life.  As such, it will always be an emotional issue, and understandably so.  I myself am extremely pro-choice, but I can understand the other point of view to a large extent.  In the latter, you're talking about a basic human right, and a right that does not directly affect (or even indirectly affect) another human life.  Apples and oranges.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: We can make a difference!
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2006, 02:43:23 pm »

I still want to defeat Focus on the Family here in their home state, though.

When I was growing up, my father taught me that the way to win at ping pong was just to consistently return the ball, don't try anything fancy, and let the other person lose the game, rather than you winning it. That's what I see happening here in Colorado if we can consistently keep returning the ball. Initiative I wasn't it. Focus and their ilk will lose the game for us with their constant Haggards and other faux pas.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 03:16:59 pm by Front-Ranger »
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